The Energon Pub

Ok, some things I'd like to discuss.

Optimus basically stated he is the Fallens brother, but didn't all the brothers freeze themselves around the Matrix? What does this mean, does this mean that Prime originated from the same source as the fallen?

Does it mean that non-primes originate from a different source?

Then in TF1 Optimus said Megatron was his Brother, does that mean Megatron is a Prime as well?

Next thing is is that they showed protoforms and stated they need Energon to keep them going. I' m sure Prime would agree that keeping his own kind going is important. Should he address this in TF3?

What is creating these protoforms?

I think the combo of the origination of Optimus, his relation to the fallen and Megatron, could be an intro to a character like Unicron.

Unicron would be tight. I think in the next movie they should show the other autbots more as well. In the shows you got to see veryone and know who he was in this you barely get a glimpse. Jolt had like 2 seconds on screen, SideSwipe had a badass scene and then little parts and then him helping some marines. Arcee and Chromia had barely anytime except in China

GetterDragun wrote:Ok, some things I'd like to discuss.

Optimus basically stated he is the Fallens brother, but didn't all the brothers freeze themselves around the Matrix? What does this mean, does this mean that Prime originated from the same source as the fallen?

I am not sure if he said that. I didn't hear it. I know he said he was Megatron's brother in the first film. And didn't Jetfire say to Sam that Prime was a descendant of the original Primes?

Then in TF1 Optimus said Megatron was his Brother, does that mean Megatron is a Prime as well?

In the book Megatron serves the Fallen because he wants to become Prime. A power the Fallen can apparently give to him.

I think the combo of the origination of Optimus, his relation to the fallen and Megatron, could be an intro to a character like Unicron.

I think Tyrese's line at the beginning

"If God created us in his image, who created him?"

asked about Prime pretty much points the finger at Primus and Unicron. Add in the Matrix, and creation myth is born. So we'll see.

GetterDragun wrote:Ok, some things I'd like to discuss.

Optimus basically stated he is the Fallens brother, but didn't all the brothers freeze themselves around the Matrix? What does this mean, does this mean that Prime originated from the same source as the fallen?

Does it mean that non-primes originate from a different source?

Then in TF1 Optimus said Megatron was his Brother, does that mean Megatron is a Prime as well?

Next thing is is that they showed protoforms and stated they need Energon to keep them going. I' m sure Prime would agree that keeping his own kind going is important. Should he address this in TF3?

What is creating these protoforms?

I think the combo of the origination of Optimus, his relation to the fallen and Megatron, could be an intro to a character like Unicron.

Optimus never said he was related to The Fallen, brother or otherwise. The other characters like Jetfire said he was a decendant of the 7 original Dynasty of Primes.

As for him being Megs' bro, while that issue is a bit hazy, we do know that Megatron isn't a Prime, as Optimus was said to be the last of the Primes.

Those weren't protoforms, those were "hatchlings", as Starscream put them as. In the movies, protoforms are simply the non-Earth Cybertronian bodies of the transformers. Remember the Protoform Optimus and Starscream figures from the first movie line?

As for Unicron, while it has been stated that there is interest in having him in TF3, The Fallen's origin in the Movie fiction completely omits Unicron and Primus, saying that The Fallen and his brethren were created by the All Spark alone. And that the reason The Fallen went bad was because he wanted the All Spark's power for himself, rather than have Unicron inspire him to become evil.

Sabrblade wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:Ok, some things I'd like to discuss.

Optimus basically stated he is the Fallens brother, but didn't all the brothers freeze themselves around the Matrix? What does this mean, does this mean that Prime originated from the same source as the fallen?

Does it mean that non-primes originate from a different source?

Then in TF1 Optimus said Megatron was his Brother, does that mean Megatron is a Prime as well?

Next thing is is that they showed protoforms and stated they need Energon to keep them going. I' m sure Prime would agree that keeping his own kind going is important. Should he address this in TF3?

What is creating these protoforms?

I think the combo of the origination of Optimus, his relation to the fallen and Megatron, could be an intro to a character like Unicron.

Optimus never said he was related to The Fallen, brother or otherwise. The other characters like Jetfire said he was a decendant of the 7 original Dynasty of Primes.

Yes he did, when he is fighting the fallen Prime says something like "They were my brothers too".

GetterDragun wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:Ok, some things I'd like to discuss.

Optimus basically stated he is the Fallens brother, but didn't all the brothers freeze themselves around the Matrix? What does this mean, does this mean that Prime originated from the same source as the fallen?

Does it mean that non-primes originate from a different source?

Then in TF1 Optimus said Megatron was his Brother, does that mean Megatron is a Prime as well?

Next thing is is that they showed protoforms and stated they need Energon to keep them going. I' m sure Prime would agree that keeping his own kind going is important. Should he address this in TF3?

What is creating these protoforms?

I think the combo of the origination of Optimus, his relation to the fallen and Megatron, could be an intro to a character like Unicron.

Optimus never said he was related to The Fallen, brother or otherwise. The other characters like Jetfire said he was a decendant of the 7 original Dynasty of Primes.

Yes he did, when he is fighting the fallen Prime says something like "They were my brothers too".

Nope.

First, when Sam had that vision, the Primes referred to Optimus as their "last descendant". A descendant is not a brother.

Also, the line your referring to goes like this:

The Fallen says to Optimus, "Die like your brother!" referring to how Megatron died in the first film. And then Optimus refers his ancestor Primes by saying, "They were your brothers too!"

The Fallen was pointing out how Optimus fought his brother Megatron and wound up having Megatron killed in that battle. But Optimus puts that argument back on him by pointing how how The Fallen fought against his brothers and they wound up dying in that battle as well.

I just now got back from seeing the movie again.

Sabrblade wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:Ok, some things I'd like to discuss.

Optimus basically stated he is the Fallens brother, but didn't all the brothers freeze themselves around the Matrix? What does this mean, does this mean that Prime originated from the same source as the fallen?

Does it mean that non-primes originate from a different source?

Then in TF1 Optimus said Megatron was his Brother, does that mean Megatron is a Prime as well?

Next thing is is that they showed protoforms and stated they need Energon to keep them going. I' m sure Prime would agree that keeping his own kind going is important. Should he address this in TF3?

What is creating these protoforms?

I think the combo of the origination of Optimus, his relation to the fallen and Megatron, could be an intro to a character like Unicron.

Optimus never said he was related to The Fallen, brother or otherwise. The other characters like Jetfire said he was a decendant of the 7 original Dynasty of Primes.

Yes he did, when he is fighting the fallen Prime says something like "They were my brothers too".

Nope.

First, when Sam had that vision, the Primes referred to Optimus as their "last descendant". A descendant is not a brother.

Also, the line your referring to goes like this:

The Fallen says to Optimus, "Die like your brother!" referring to how Megatron died in the first film. And then Optimus refers his ancestor Primes by saying, "They were your brothers too!"

The Fallen was pointing out how Optimus fought his brother Megatron and wound up having Megatron killed in that battle. But Optimus puts that argument back on him by pointing how how The Fallen fought against his brothers and they wound up dying in that battle as well.

I just now got back from seeing the movie again.

That wouldn't make sense to have one referencing something the other ones not, and it wouldn't make sense to reference megatron because obviously it wouldn't be that much of a threat since Megatron was standing right there. When Prime says "They were your brothers too" it is referencing that Prime's brothers were the Fallen's brothers. I mean, the sentence is pretty straight forward, they were the fallen's brothers as well as Prime's brothers.

Damn, now I gotta go back and see the movie again.

Your forgetting that Optimus is their descendant, as clearly stated by the Prime voiced by Kevin Michael Richardson. A descendant cannot be the brother of an ancestor.

Sabrblade wrote:Your forgetting that Optimus is their descendant, as clearly stated by the Prime voiced by Kevin Michael Richardson. A descendant cannot be the brother of an ancestor.

So why did the fallen call him their brother? Optimus could be a descendant of the source that the Fallen comes from as well. The Fallen clearly groups Optimus with the Primes that he defeated that were also his brother. I'm not saying that Optimus Prime is one of the originals, I'm saying that he originated from the same source as the originals...which the movie intentionally or unintentionally links Optimus Prime to a heritage related to the fallen and the original primes.

I'm going to buy the book Tommie to see if the line is clearly stated and if there is a reference in the book that wasn't shown in the movie, since the book for TF1 explained things a more clearly than the movie.

GetterDragun wrote:So why did the fallen call him their brother/

He didn't. The Fallen never once stated in the movie that he and Optimus were brothers.

The only mention of any relation between the two was that Optimus was the last living descendant of the ancient Primes, whom The Fallen had betrayed.

I seriously don't think that Brothers means Brothers in the film.. more like Brotheren.. kin.. because they are of the same generation of transformers.. while the fallen is older and older technology.. like a 198o's Cell Phone versus an I-Phone of today.. by those standards, Optimus and Megatron are both I-phones.... and thus Brothers..

Brothers of cybertron, their Dead world..

In the first movie, When Prime said Megatron was his brother, I assumed that he meant a Brother of Cybertron...not Human..and not his true Brother..

skywarp-2 wrote:I seriously don't think that Brothers means Brothers in the film.. more like Brotheren.. kin.. because they are of the same generation of transformers.. while the fallen is older and older technology.. like a 198o's Cell Phone versus an I-Phone of today.. by those standards, Optimus and Megatron are both I-phones.... and thus Brothers..

Brothers of cybertron, their Dead world..

In the first movie, When Prime said Megatron was his brother, I assumed that he meant a Brother of Cybertron...not Human..and not his true Brother..

Well what about when Jetfire yells about his mother and father?

Or what about all the other sibling relationships in various TF media?

skywarp-2 wrote:I seriously don't think that Brothers means Brothers in the film.. more like Brotheren.. kin.. because they are of the same generation of transformers..

Geez thank you!

Why does everyone insist on taking the term "brother" so literally? I have never once believed that in the first movie, when Optimus Prime calls Megatron "brother" that he meant a literal sibling...

Why on earth would Transformers have relationships like that? And as for Jetfire mentioning his parents, I really don't think that was meant to be taken seriously...He was pretty crazy and out of it and just being funny...

typh0id wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:I seriously don't think that Brothers means Brothers in the film.. more like Brotheren.. kin.. because they are of the same generation of transformers..

Geez thank you!

Why does everyone insist on taking the term "brother" so literally? I have never once believed that in the first movie, when Optimus Prime calls Megatron "brother" that he meant a literal sibling...

Why on earth would Transformers have relationships like that? And as for Jetfire mentioning his parents, I really don't think that was meant to be taken seriously...He was pretty crazy and out of it and just being funny...

Your looking at the term typically (which isn't wrong). I'm looking at it from a logical sense. Meaning same origin. Meaning the creator of Optimus was the same as the Primes, yet the creation of the other Transformers was from a different source.

GetterDragun wrote:
Your looking at the term typically (which isn't wrong). I'm looking at it from a logical sense. Meaning same origin. Meaning the creator of Optimus was the same as the Primes, yet the creation of the other Transformers was from a different source.

Aren't all the transformers from the SAME source? The AllSpark? That would make them ALL brothers (or sisters, in some cases I guess)

typh0id wrote:

GetterDragun wrote:
Your looking at the term typically (which isn't wrong). I'm looking at it from a logical sense. Meaning same origin. Meaning the creator of Optimus was the same as the Primes, yet the creation of the other Transformers was from a different source.

Aren't all the transformers from the SAME source? The AllSpark? That would make them ALL brothers (or sisters, in some cases I guess)

Think about it from a human religious view. Depending on what religion one believes in, we all come from the same source, so we're all 'children' of our God, so we're all brothers and sisters in that sense.

But in a literal sense, we're not. Can you call your father, uncle, or someone who's not related to you an actual sibling in a literal sense? Nope. Only those who are related to you by having the same parents as you are your siblings.

The way the Transformers view Primus, the Allspark, the All Spark, the Matrix, Vector Sigma, the Oracle, and all those other origin things are in a religious sense. But in a literal sense, only certain bots are siblings (like G1 sideswipe and Sunstreaker, Movie Optimus and Megatron, and ROTF Skids and Mudflap).

Sabrblade wrote:The way the Transformers view Primus, the Allspark, the All Spark, the Matrix, Vector Sigma, the Oracle, and all those other origin things are in a religious sense. But in a literal sense, only certain bots are siblings (like G1 sideswipe and Sunstreaker, Movie Optimus and Megatron, and ROTF Skids and Mudflap).

You're overlooking something there, though...Sideswipe/Sunstreak and Skids/Mudflap were the result of a spark splitting and crating twins instead of just one robot...This has been stated for both of those pairs but no such thing has ever been stated for Prime and Megatron...

And aside from the purely humourous comment Jetfire made (which I still don't put any actual stock in) when has there EVER been an indication that a transformer had parents...The Nokia in the first film turned into a robot directly from exposure to the allspark...So your the God and then Parents theory doesn't really hold up for transformers...

typh0id wrote:And aside from the purely humourous comment Jetfire made (which I still don't put any actual stock in) when has there EVER been an indication that a transformer had parents...

Let's see...

• Alpha Trion is ("more than almost like a") father to Optimus Prime and Elita One in the cartoon continuity.
• Additionally, G1 Optimus Prime may have a mother. In an advertisement for Pepsi Convoy that shows him in a refrigerator (along with a Destron Pizza), a note attached to a nearby piece of tupperware reads:
  Dear Convoy
  Warm it before you eat
  Mom
  Although the ad itself is for Pepsi Convoy, he is a separate character, and it can be assumed that the note was left for Convoy/Optimus Prime himself.
• Wheelie's parents are mentioned in "The Story of Wheelie, the Wild Boy of Quintesson".
• Grimlock is (like a) father to the Technobots in the cartoon continuity. As Nosecone asked, "Are...are you my father?"
• Quickswitch is Sixshot's son. As stated in his toy commercial.
• Every member of the Dinoforce has children in the Victory manga.
• Speeder is the son of Dai Atlas.
• Lio Junior is the "son" of Lio Convoy.
• Stampy's parents are mentioned in the Beast Wars Neo manga.
• Cohrada's father is mentioned BWNeo manga.
• Longrack's father, grandfather, great-grandfather, and great-great-...well, a LOT of his ancestors are mentioned in the BWNeo manga.
• The Mini-Con Twirl very specifically calls Falcia her "mother" (which Falcia hates) and seems to treat Redline like a father, since the two's spark frame energies went into constructing her physical form.
• Movie Optimus and Megatron had a father, who Megatron presumably killed. We are told this in the DS game.
• Cybertron Sideways may have a mother. He calls out his mother when he's about to be blasted in the episode "City".

Sabrblade wrote:
[*]Additionally, Optimus Prime may have a mother. In an advertisement for Pepsi Convoy that shows him in a refrigerator (along with a Destron Pizza), a note attached to a nearby piece of tupperware reads:
Dear Convoy
Warm it before you eat
Mom
Although the ad itself is for Pepsi Convoy, he is a separate character, and it can be assumed that the note was left for Convoy/Optimus Prime himself.

I seriously hope adding that to your list was a joke...

As for the rest, I get your point...And fair enough...But I still don't think movie Prime and Megs are actually literal brothers...Other than the one time Optimus used that term, there was nothing in any of the backstory indicating that was the case...Though I haveb't played the DS game so I don't know anything about that...

GetterDragun wrote:Ok, some things I'd like to discuss.

Optimus basically stated he is the Fallens brother, but didn't all the brothers freeze themselves around the Matrix? What does this mean, does this mean that Prime originated from the same source as the fallen?

Does it mean that non-primes originate from a different source?

Then in TF1 Optimus said Megatron was his Brother, does that mean Megatron is a Prime as well?

Next thing is is that they showed protoforms and stated they need Energon to keep them going. I' m sure Prime would agree that keeping his own kind going is important. Should he address this in TF3?

What is creating these protoforms?

I think the combo of the origination of Optimus, his relation to the fallen and Megatron, could be an intro to a character like Unicron.

It's possible that Optimus Prime and the original 7 Primes have the same "father" but maybe Optimus Prime has a different "mother" so to speak. So maybe that's why the original 7 Primes can only be killed by Primes but Optimus Prime can be killed by Megatron. As to what constitutes a "mother" in this Transformers universe, I don't know.

Because it wasn't really explained in the first movie, it's also possible that Megatron and Optimus Prime are indeed brothers. It's possible that Megatron and Optimus Prime had the same "mother" but different "fathers". This may also explain why Megatron can kill Optimus Prime.

Here's a potential scenario on how I see the above happening.

Primus and Unicron created the 7 Primes but then Unicron betrayed Primus and trapped him in planet form. Then Unicron took off to look for planets to devour to convert to energon. Then before the 6 Primes "died", they used something of themselves that was apart of Primus with Vector Sigma to bring life to Optimus Prime. Then, maybe the Fallen used Vector Sigma with another source to create Megatron. Possibly, the Fallen was unwilling to use apart of his spark or whatever to create Megatron because he didn't want Megatron to be as powerful as him.

I better be in the next movie goddangit!!!! My royalties from the G1 cartoon are dwindling!!

I don't think Megs and Prime are brothers b/c Megs would've killed and overtaken the Fallen a long time ago if that were the case, being such close relation to a Prime. I don't know -it's all so confusing. I wonder how the quints and Unicron will fit into all of this. They may bypass the quints story entirely and just go with the Primus/comic universe stuff. (Which i'm not read up on). If a phenomenal screenplay (i mean better than TF1 & 2, on par with Terminator 2, BB or TDK, Ironman, Spiderman2) can be written and this is combined with great action sequences, the next movie could be mindblowing. It could be Bay's craftiest, smartest movie to date --then he can silence all the critics. Wouldn't that be great?

vectorA3 wrote:I better be in the next movie goddangit!!!! My royalties from the G1 cartoon are dwindling!!

I don't think Megs and Prime are brothers b/c Megs would've killed and overtaken the Fallen a long time ago if that were the case, being such close relation to a Prime. I don't know -it's all so confusing. I wonder how the quints and Unicron will fit into all of this. They may bypass the quints story entirely and just go with the Primus/comic universe stuff. (Which i'm not read up on). If a phenomenal screenplay (i mean better than TF1 & 2, on par with Terminator 2, BB or TDK, Ironman, Spiderman2) can be written and this is combined with great action sequences, the next movie could be mindblowing. It could be Bay's craftiest, smartest movie to date --then he can silence all the critics. Wouldn't that be great?

Have you already said something about "bypassing the quints" before? Cuz I'm reading your post and getting weird feeling of deja vu.

typh0id wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:
[*]Additionally, Optimus Prime may have a mother. In an advertisement for Pepsi Convoy that shows him in a refrigerator (along with a Destron Pizza), a note attached to a nearby piece of tupperware reads:
Dear Convoy
Warm it before you eat
Mom
Although the ad itself is for Pepsi Convoy, he is a separate character, and it can be assumed that the note was left for Convoy/Optimus Prime himself.

I seriously hope adding that to your list was a joke...

For G1 Optimus Prime/Convoy, and not Movie Optimus Prime. It's interesting that Movie Optimus Prime is one of the few "Optimus Primes" to not be a "Convoy" in Japan.

Sabrblade wrote:

typh0id wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:
[*]Additionally, Optimus Prime may have a mother. In an advertisement for Pepsi Convoy that shows him in a refrigerator (along with a Destron Pizza), a note attached to a nearby piece of tupperware reads:
Dear Convoy
Warm it before you eat
Mom
Although the ad itself is for Pepsi Convoy, he is a separate character, and it can be assumed that the note was left for Convoy/Optimus Prime himself.

I seriously hope adding that to your list was a joke...

Haha! No, no I BELIEVE you, I would just be hardpressed to accept a commercial for Pepsi Convoy as official canon...


Anyway, despite my gripes, I've enjoyed both movies greatly but I'm really kinda hoping the third has different writers/director...I'd like to see someone take the reigns who's actually willing to explain some of the stuff they've thrown in...