The Energon Pub

I know I'm supposed to only host one thread at a time, but news begets views, as they say.

Considering, with the Golden rules of TF Canon (see below) in mind, that Jolt and any surviving aspects of Arcee are missing in action...

1: The only TF continuity is the fact that there is no TF continuity.
2: The fact that there is no continuity is a seperate continuity to the fact that there is no continuity.
3: Any expansion of a continuity (eg: Comics expanding on Movieverse) is a seperate continuity to the continuity it expands upon.
4: When a continuity is found, refer to rule 1.
5: The Time wars unite all continuities into one continuity, therefore as long as there are at least two seperate continuities in existence at any given time,then there has only ever been one continuity in existence at any given time.
6: When a continuity is not found, refer to rule 5.
7: Due to the fact that Hasbros' next continuity will be a seperate one to any and all others, all of the above are subject to change without notice.
8: Due to the fact that it is tradition for things TF to change without notice, rule 7 cannot and does not ever apply.
9: Nothing is canon until it is accepted as Canon by the Fanbase.Anything not cleared by the Fanbase is a plot hole waiting to be discussed in committee.

...then, it is possible that Jolt and Arcee (and Landmine, Cliffjumper, Camshaft, and all other Movie line toys) are currently guarding the Ark (during the events of Dotm).

If there are Autobots on the Ark, they most propably suffered more easily repairable damage that that of Megatron upon his death in TF1.Barring interfering extreme factors such as Unicronian Energy draining or wierd Shockwave bot killing capabilities, the question as to whether or not they are ressurectable is so far technically answered with a Yes.
If the Autobots are harvesting Energon on Earth, and if either Jolt, Arcee or the Twins came from the Ark rather than Deep Space, then the minute amounts of Energon assumably harvested so far by the existing not-harvest-specialized Autobot Movieverse population may have sufficed to ressurect the smaller Arcee and the Twins from amongst the Arks...cargo..., whilst Jolt may have been the immediate next choice, regardless of size, as his Electro-Whips can allow for a faster transfer of Energon, and assumably the more efficient eventual ressurection of other fallen Bots (perhaps only with supervision from Ratchet).

HOWEVER, it is established in Rotf that all Autobots working with N.E.S.T are obliged to provide a registered AltMode for I.D purposes, so it is likely that for Optimus to get Jolt, Arcee and anyone else off of Earth, he must declare them dead (and hide the bodies from the Humans who will assumably otherwise bury them in the ocean with whatever is left of Jazz after the ressurection of Megatron).

There is also the fact that Soundwave, if still functioning as a satellite-o-phile, may detect the energy/life transmissions of any said Autobots hanging out on the Moon, although there is no indication that Soundwave is actually capable of detecting another TF, in the Movieverse at least, from orbit-to-surface range.
Also, there is no indication that the Autobot hunter team who eventually kill SideWays and the other bloke in Rotf can detect camoflaged TFs without the direct intervention/assistance of Human Tech. The Twins do not seem to detect the Constructicons in the Egyptian fight sequence even tho they virtually park in their shadows.
(Note that altho Ironhide identifies Starscream in the opening stages of the CityFight in TF1, it could be from familiarity rather than systems scanning: maybe he knows the pitch of Starscreams engines by heart, or instead can detect the Energy sigs from Starscreams 'signature weaponry' or Deceps just don't fly like Fleshlings).

Also note that an unknown Transformer beats up the Rover on Mars in TF1, so they're pretty much mobile in the rest of the Solar System by the year 2000-and-a-little-bit.. Perhaps it's specifically the Dark side of the Moon which has managed so far to conceal the Ark from Cybertronian searchers, if any?

Perhaps the Ark is what made the dark side of the Moon always concealed? Like the crash landing offset the rotation of the Moon, and thats why we only see the one side of it?

Best part about this thread......


.....it's continuity

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:1: The only TF continuity is the fact that there is no TF continuity.
2: The fact that there is no continuity is a seperate continuity to the fact that there is no continuity.
3: Any expansion of a continuity (eg: Comics expanding on Movieverse) is a seperate continuity to the continuity it expands upon.
4: When a continuity is found, refer to rule 1.
5: The Time wars unite all continuities into one continuity, therefore as long as there are at least two seperate continuities in existence at any given time,then there has only ever been one continuity in existence at any given time.
6: When a continuity is not found, refer to rule 5.
7: Due to the fact that Hasbros' next continuity will be a seperate one to any and all others, all of the above are subject to change without notice.
8: Due to the fact that it is tradition for things TF to change without notice, rule 7 cannot and does not ever apply.
9: Nothing is canon until it is accepted as Canon by the Fanbase.Anything not cleared by the Fanbase is a plot hole waiting to be discussed in committee.

Great, now I have a headache.

Even if this list you made wasn't painfully (And I'm assuming intentionally) self-contradictory, Rule #9 kills any credibility you may or may not have intended for it to have. We don't deal in Fanon here. We know how Continuity works in Transformers. It's really simple, too:

1. Canon is decided by the series writers. Not necessarily Hasbro, but the people making the story.
Addendum: It is not decided by the fans.
2. Any work that does not fit with a previously established canon is it's own canon, but can be adopted into a Universal Stream if it doesn't make it's own.
3. I am the King of Continuity on Seibertron.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:Also note that an unknown Transformer beats up the Rover on Mars in TF1, so they're pretty much mobile in the rest of the Solar System by the year 2000-and-a-little-bit.. Perhaps it's specifically the Dark side of the Moon which has managed so far to conceal the Ark from Cybertronian searchers, if any?

It was a Decepticon, one of the prequel comics establishes that it was Blackout, and they pretty much confirm that in the movie. (The the picture of the bot on mars and the picture of Blackout in Qatar have the same silhouette)

#Sideways# wrote:Perhaps the Ark is what made the dark side of the Moon always concealed? Like the crash landing offset the rotation of the Moon, and thats why we only see the one side of it?

I doubt that. If the Ark impacted the moon hard enough to change it's rotation, it would either leave a massive crater or, more like, be completely obliterated to the point that there would be nothing left to identify it as Cybertronian.

I hear you, Shadowman, and I knew some folks would attack the ninth rule, but it stands (within the context of this thread and not kingship over all things TF).Note I avoided referring to continuities as realities.In another reality, the rules are whatever you want them to be.

I defense of my non serious take on things:
The explanation of the Rotf Constructicons appearing in two sets is one example in recent history, and the flames on TF1 Optimus another, where it was not treated as canon, but a plothole, until the fanbase put the whole issue through the wringer at held up the final working result as to why..,
Since I watched people sort out the Constructicon debate without being a member, I consider the ninth valid in my overall Seibertron experience, and anyway it's meant to be a satirical look at the irony of TF reality,not the new world order, but I'm sure you know that.

One still un'solved' (I think) example is the Hotshot-calls-Sideswipe-Brother vein, (my personal solution is that Sunstreaker and Sideswipe both have another Brother called HotShot).

As for writers, the G1 writers decided that it's Canon for Hoist to fit inside Huffers cabin and drive him around, whilst all 5 Dinobots can fit inside Primes trailer and still keep it light enough for him to bring it around in a 180 degree skid and deploy them without toppling it or it getting stuck in the ground.


There was a tenth rule, a reference to an older thread, but I figured it was too nasty, so I left it out: "That any old Joe can spin a web of sh.t and declare it Canon, so I'm declaring this web of sh.t Canon because I can".

Respectfully, I see that you get a headache as soon as you see the fanbase working together in the ninth rule, then declare yourself King of continuity. Did your headache pass now that you're the King? Shame on us if this degenerates into a flame battle about who makes the rules.

Edit: The reason behind my salute to the fanbase in the ninth rule is because I watch them intentionally resolve things in the writers favor as opposed to their own, I felt it deserved a little celebratory hello.There are 8 other rules which in my opinion serve to keep the ninth in check.

Edit 2: I DO NOT consider myself one of the people strong enough to resolve a plothole, but it's one of my fave things to watch getting done here.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:I defense of my non serious take on things:
The explanation of the Rotf Constructicons appearing in two sets is one example in recent history, and the flames on TF1 Optimus another, where it was not treated as canon, but a plothole, until the fanbase put the whole issue through the wringer at held up the final working result as to why..,
Since I watched people sort out the Constructicon debate without being a member, I consider the ninth valid in my overall Seibertron experience, and anyway it's meant to be a satirical look at the irony of TF reality,not the new world order, but I'm sure you know that.

Maybe it's because it's 3AM, but I'm not really getting the whole "satire" of it. It's one thing to patch up a plot hole, it's another thing entirely to declare what is and is not canon. Come to think of it, I've never seen someone try to declare something canon or non-canon, and if they did, they were shot down hard.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:As for writers, the G1 writers decided that it's Canon for Hoist to fit inside Huffers cabin and drive him around, whilst all 5 Dinobots can fit inside Primes trailer and still keep it light enough for him to bring it around in a 180 degree skid and deploy them without toppling it or it getting stuck in the ground.

Uh...what? I'm lost now. We were talking about continuity...now we're on the laws of physics being ignored?

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:Respectfully, I see that you get a headache as soon as you see the fanbase working together in the ninth rule, then declare yourself King of continuity. Did your headache pass now that you're the King? Shame on us if this degenerates into a flame battle about who makes the rules.

"Fanbase working together." Ah, man, I'd like to see that. This fanbase can't agree on anything, we can't even agree on what color Frenzy and Rumble are, and there's a list explicitly telling us the answer.

(The headache was over trying to figure out those rules you made up, due to the fact that each rule contradicts at least two other rules)

Shadowman wrote:
Maybe it's because it's 3AM, but I'm not really getting the whole "satire" of it. It's one thing to patch up a plot hole, it's another thing entirely to declare what is and is not canon. Come to think of it, I've never seen someone try to declare something canon or non-canon, and if they did, they were shot down hard.


Uh...what? I'm lost now. We were talking about continuity...now we're on the laws of physics being ignored?


"Fanbase working together." Ah, man, I'd like to see that. This fanbase can't agree on anything, we can't even agree on what color Frenzy and Rumble are, and there's a list explicitly telling us the answer.

(The headache was over trying to figure out those rules you made up, due to the fact that each rule contradicts at least two other rules)

It's satire, in the form on would-be official rules. Satire works by satirizing the actual subject.

The Frenzy and Rumble issue is in committee *lol*...seriously, I do feel that I've watched people work together here. During and in the leadup to the Chicago shoot, as Albershide brought lots of news over, I felt everyone was working together whilst I was watching everyone go to it and sort through it as it arrived.That was the behavior that spurred me to join.

Well, yes, I guess the laws of physics were being ignored, but I was under the impression that 'mass displacement' was a theory introduced back in those days by just a simple fan, and explained enough about events that it was accepted all round, regarding the way TFs could alter size so drastically and so on.

What, do you feel that you are seeing me declare things canon and non canon above (apart from the web of sh.t reference in the edit, which I explain why I left it out)? I was just presenting a new potential development in the possibilities of Jolts and Arcees whereabouts. I used the rules thing to replace a more formal reminder that it's not even a theory yet, just a possibility.

Glad your headache is gone. Those rules are intended to be unworkoutable. It was just for parody.Don't read them more than once, they're not for official administrative use.

Gotta run now. Sorry to everyone potentially offended. Was just for fun, and will be again. Make rules of your own to demolish the above if they offend you: I don't mind as long as they're for laughs and not malice.

Shadowman wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:Also note that an unknown Transformer beats up the Rover on Mars in TF1, so they're pretty much mobile in the rest of the Solar System by the year 2000-and-a-little-bit.. Perhaps it's specifically the Dark side of the Moon which has managed so far to conceal the Ark from Cybertronian searchers, if any?

It was a Decepticon, one of the prequel comics establishes that it was Blackout, and they pretty much confirm that in the movie. (The the picture of the bot on mars and the picture of Blackout in Qatar have the same silhouette)

Well, it seemed more like Bumblebee's body-type. So, it could have been Cliffjumper as the two share the body-type.

And we don't actually know, whether it was an autobot or a decepticon. We only saw a silhouette.

On your comment of the silhouette's resemblance I don't quite have an argument yet, but it's possible, that their exoskeletons have certain similarities in certain angles. And anyway, how did they get Blackout's silhouette, if they made a thermal shot in the middle of the night.(Though I don't how that works so...)

And... I haven't read the comics so I don't know about that Prequel stuff.

Red 50 wrote:And we don't actually know, whether it was an autobot or a decepticon. We only saw a silhouette.

Yeah we do. We know it was Blackout who destroyed the Rover. Because the prequel material said so.

Red 50 wrote:On your comment of the silhouette's resemblance I don't quite have an argument yet, but it's possible, that their exoskeletons have certain similarities in certain angles. And anyway, how did they get Blackout's silhouette, if they made a thermal shot in the middle of the night.(Though I don't how that works so...)

They actually show the photo from Qatar and the photo from Mars.

Isn't it a Protoform silhouette in the Rover footage?

I accept that it's Blackout, but am just saying that if the films wanted to, they could override the Comic material and make it a so-far unintroduced bot if they felt like it, or needed it to work that way for the story...

I remember the movie saying they were of the same exo-skeleton. And I'm assuming some of this could.... or "should" be explained in the movie. But based on things that happen in the movies that are left to be explained may mean it doesn't get explained. Like... why did they have to kill the "little one" in ROTF when Blackout, Brawl, and I'm assuming bonecrusher were all dumped in the same area? Plenty of parts just lying around if you ask me.

dirk2243 wrote:I remember the movie saying they were of the same exo-skeleton. And I'm assuming some of this could.... or "should" be explained in the movie. But based on things that happen in the movies that are left to be explained may mean it doesn't get explained. Like... why did they have to kill the "little one" in ROTF when Blackout, Brawl, and I'm assuming bonecrusher were all dumped in the same area? Plenty of parts just lying around if you ask me.

They probably needed fresh parts, not ones that have been left in salt water for two years.

dirk2243 wrote:I remember the movie saying they were of the same exo-skeleton. And I'm assuming some of this could.... or "should" be explained in the movie. But based on things that happen in the movies that are left to be explained may mean it doesn't get explained. Like... why did they have to kill the "little one" in ROTF when Blackout, Brawl, and I'm assuming bonecrusher were all dumped in the same area? Plenty of parts just lying around if you ask me.

My guess is that they killed the little one for it's spark, since fan predictions before the film guessed Skorponok would dive down there and sacrifice his to revive Megz.

But then, there's two Devastators, two Blackouts and Two Bonecrushers in the first two films (of course, commentary states one Dev is actually Brawl, one Blackout is actually Grindor and the second Dev and Bonecrusher are never actually named ( I think),whilst the totline states Brawl escapes into the deep desert and even gets upgraded with Allspark power so there's no movie confirmation that anyone except Megatron was actually down there.

I don't know if the Autobots accept it being a final resting place for Jazz.

And even if the comics touch on the subject, I don't buy it as official. A movieverse label on a comic is just a gimmick to sell the Comic.
I strongly doubt people who write scripts without knowing the names of the Bots in them, especially when they killed them a script ago, will make phone calls to see who the comics killed off so they don't accidentally include them in the next script. (And even if they did make the call, I wouldn't expect them to actually get it right anyway).

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:My guess is that they killed the little one for it's spark, since fan predictions before the film guessed Skorponok would dive down there and sacrifice his to revive Megz.

No, they needs "Parts" not "Sparks." If they implanted Ze Little One's spark into Megatron, they would not get Megatron, they would have Ze Little One in Megatron's body.

Which goes to prove: never make guesses based on fan predictions that turned out to be wrong.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:so there's no movie confirmation that anyone except Megatron was actually down there.

Except for the first movie saying that they dumped all the corpses down there.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:And even if the comics touch on the subject, I don't buy it as official. A movieverse label on a comic is just a gimmick to sell the Comic.
I strongly doubt people who write scripts without knowing the names of the Bots in them, especially when they killed them a script ago, will make phone calls to see who the comics killed off so they don't accidentally include them in the next script. (And even if they did make the call, I wouldn't expect them to actually get it right anyway).

No other official source ever explained it, so what do you want? Roberto Orci wasn't even sure Blackout and Grindor were supposed to be the same bot. You have no idea how much stuff they leave out.

And the movieverse label is a gimmick to tell stories set in the movieverse that weren't told in the movies.

Shadowman wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:My guess is that they killed the little one for it's spark, since fan predictions before the film guessed Skorponok would dive down there and sacrifice his to revive Megz.

No, they needs "Parts" not "Sparks." If they implanted Ze Little One's spark into Megatron, they would not get Megatron, they would have Ze Little One in Megatron's body.

Which goes to prove: never make guesses based on fan predictions that turned out to be wrong.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:so there's no movie confirmation that anyone except Megatron was actually down there.

Except for the first movie saying that they dumped all the corpses down there.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:And even if the comics touch on the subject, I don't buy it as official. A movieverse label on a comic is just a gimmick to sell the Comic.
I strongly doubt people who write scripts without knowing the names of the Bots in them, especially when they killed them a script ago, will make phone calls to see who the comics killed off so they don't accidentally include them in the next script. (And even if they did make the call, I wouldn't expect them to actually get it right anyway).

No other official source ever explained it, so what do you want? Roberto Orci wasn't even sure Blackout and Grindor were supposed to be the same bot. You have no idea how much stuff they leave out.

And the movieverse label is a gimmick to tell stories set in the movieverse that weren't told in the movies.

They need Parts to repair the chest cavity, of course. How do they bring Megz back to life tho? They need to 'spark' his chamber once it's repaired, not load a new pilot into his body.

I know what they said in the first movie. I'm talking about who reappears in the second. There is also no list of corpses given. Dead Bots simply reappear in the toyline and TF2, until they get renamed.

What do I want?I want to see people talk about where Jolt and Arcee could be, now that there is an Ark on the Moon and the plot is thickening.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:They need Parts to repair the chest cavity, of course. How do they bring Megz back to life tho? They need to 'spark' his chamber once it's repaired, not load a new pilot into his body.

...none of what you just said made any sense in the context of Transformers. "Spark" is not a verb, for instance. If they needed new parts for Megatron's chest, they would have removes Ze Little One's Spark first, as seen when Jetfire gives up his body to Optimus.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:What do I want?I want to see people talk about where Jolt and Arcee could be, now that there is an Ark on the Moon and the plot is thickening.

Jolt is probably still with the Autobots on Earth, as he was never shown being killed. Arcee, however, was shown being shot up and killed by Decepticons.

The ship on the moon...actually proves nothing as to their location. Remember, Optimus doesn't keep secrets from the humans, and even so, Sector 7 and NASA already knew about the crashed ship on the moon.

Shadowman wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:
...none of what you just said made any sense in the context of Transformers. "Spark" is not a verb,

for instance. Sector 7 and NASA already knew about the crashed ship on the moon.

1. I think English overrides the context of Transformers, and/or makes Spark a Verb, but I'm going to drift away from the spark topic preemptively since it looks like we're going to agree to disagree.

2.You're absolutely right there about Nasa ans S7. Perfect point that I didn't consider. I also agree that they may just be with the A/bots-just because there's no voice actor declared doesn't mean the script doesn't place them.

Another query: What do you (and others) think of this?: That Megz dies with one Altmode (the TF1 jet-thing), but is ressurected with another (the TF2 Tank thing) , that he didn't scan to appropriate.
Is he a triple changer?
Does he have a backup file of older Altmodes?
Did the Doc download it to him?
Dead TFs automatically magnetize to surrounding debris upon ressurection, as per Optimus with Jetfires remains?
It's a Prime thing?
It's a script thing, just buy it?

I assumed it was the result of having Ze Little One's parts grafted onto him. You might have noticed he didn't have tank treads for feet in the first movie, or that sweet cannon/sword arm.

The camera gives us a nice, quick look at ze little vun's alt mode, which has both treads and a claw-arm. While not exactly like the final product, it's clear Megatron's newly revived form is a hybrid of his old frame and Scrapmetal/ze little vun's.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:I know I'm supposed to only host one thread at a time,

Uh... Care to show me where this rule is written down?

Also

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:Dead TFs automatically magnetize to surrounding debris upon ressurection, as per Optimus with Jetfires remains?

If I am not mistaken, this was due to Jolt and Ratchet..?

Cyber Bishop wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:Dead TFs automatically magnetize to surrounding debris upon ressurection, as per Optimus with Jetfires remains?

If I am not mistaken, this was due to Jolt and Ratchet..?

Yeah, Jolt and Ratchet were the ones who transplanted parts from Jetfire onto Optimus. And Optimus had already been alive for some time when Jetfire gave up his parts. I assume it worked for Megatron the same way.

Cyber Bishop wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:I know I'm supposed to only host one thread at a time,

Uh... Care to show me where this rule is written down?

Also

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:Dead TFs automatically magnetize to surrounding debris upon ressurection, as per Optimus with Jetfires remains?

If I am not mistaken, this was due to Jolt and Ratchet..?

Made a mistake, it was rule 3 for the collections forum. I took it as across the board.

Yes, it's due to Jolt and Ratchet. My bad. Meant to refer to what conditions we see the magnetization 'phenomenon' occur under.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:

Cyber Bishop wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:I know I'm supposed to only host one thread at a time,

Uh... Care to show me where this rule is written down?

Also

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:Dead TFs automatically magnetize to surrounding debris upon ressurection, as per Optimus with Jetfires remains?

If I am not mistaken, this was due to Jolt and Ratchet..?

Made a mistake, it was rule 3 for the collections forum. I took it as across the board.

Yes, it's due to Jolt and Ratchet. My bad. Meant to refer to what conditions we see the magnetization 'phenomenon' occur under.

Actually, past Jolt and Ratchets' intervention, a magnetization event happens again between the Allspark shard and Jetfire.

Tho Jetfire isn't 'dead' per se (according to us)...in torpor maybe?

Still, I just consider the whole form-choosing-from-mode-to-mode question an entertaining toy box to plunder. In context of Shortwaves' "if you were an TF" post, the form choosing question becomes shopping madness!!!!!:

*A newborn TF, so far generically designated a protoform, appears to start off as multi-legged, but older ones are often introduced as two legged, ALTHOUGH new Allspark-born TFs appear to come into existence with both an existing Altmode and Botmode intact in the physiological makeup, whilst Hatchlings don't necessarily indicate this; So which comes first, the chicken (Botmode + Altmode) or the Egg (protoform + default Altmode capabilities [comet-thing is one so-far revealed variant, to be clinical about it])...

*A Protoform will scan a selected Altmode form and then sprout the components required to take the shape of that form (thus yielding, for the sake of definition, the alteration of a protoform into what the Humans designate a Bot mode, for lack of a better term).

*Megatron somehow 'takes upon himself' the characteristics of 'Ze litl Wun' and is re'born' with a new Bot Mode and Altmode without any prompt given by the storyline that a scan is required. Are the two 'new' modes actually older modes of Megz, stored somewhere in his memory? Are they somehow downloaded by the Doc? Is it a natural process? Is it a pre-wired behavioural pattern in all 'lilt vunz' to accommodate continued subservience to 'ze bigur vunz'?

*Jetfire and primes' combination appears to not have any fuzing abilities outside of a revisit to the Powerlinx process. Is this non-permanent bonding a regular option simply designated 'unrequired' by Primes Programming during the actual combining process (there would have been high speed transmissions between Prime and Jetfires' remains to organize what bit goes where).Did the link allow for an Altmode boost different to Jetfires old school armor and Primes' old school trailer 'drones'?

* The allspark shard used on/up by jetfire is not confirmed (in the film, at least) to field a blast wave of any type that generates new TF ferals as seen in Sams parents' Kitchen. Is the particular Allspark shard already in cahoots with the Primes, or even the Sentinel expedition, working on some level on a pre guided, pre requested, or pre agreed behavioural format different to the perceived default of just creating new life? Does it somehow re'do' Jetfires makeup, converting him, say, from Decep to Autobot? Or perhaps from a Cybertronian to some sort of Herald of the Allspark, or Herald of the Primes?? If it does nothing new, why? Is it partially depleted of its' full potential at some earlier stage?