The Energon Pub

OK so now it's the good old guy who's on fire, against that Robot that's on fire.
This fight is between the comic version of Johny Blaze/Ghost Rider and the comic version of the Fallen (but is there any other version to him anyway).

So who wins, the guy who sold his soul to an evil being and since then has a burning body or the other guy?

The Fallen would probably crush GR into so many calcium tablets.

Ghost Rider doesn't stand a chance. The Fallen would pretty much just pick him up and grind him into bone dust.

They both say "screw it" and form a hair club for people with flames coming out of their heads

I'm fairly certain that mystical/supernatural powers > Technological Powers.

The Fallen may have "supernatural" powers when it comes to dealing with other Transformers. But his powers are really only advanced upgrades given by Unicron.

While Ghost Rider was given his powers by a guy who can easily dimension hop.

Hell, I bet Kitty Pryde could beat The Fallen.

Senor Hugo wrote:I'm fairly certain that mystical/supernatural powers > Technological Powers.

I'm fairly certain that the Fallen has mystical powers instead of technological powers.

Senor Hugo wrote:The Fallen may have "supernatural" powers when it comes to dealing with other Transformers. But his powers are really only advanced upgrades given by Unicron.

I think you're confusing The Fallen with Galvatron. The Fallen already had powers of his own before joining with Unicron, it's not even certain if he ever got any additional powers from him.

Senor Hugo wrote:While Ghost Rider was given his powers by a guy who can easily dimension hop.

The originals have already been described to do that themselves since supposedly only 1 incarnation of them exists for every G1 alt-universe.

Senor Hugo wrote:Hell, I bet Kitty Pryde could beat The Fallen.

I'm certain you'd lose that bet.

Stormwolf wrote:

Senor Hugo wrote:I'm fairly certain that mystical/supernatural powers > Technological Powers.

I'm fairly certain that the Fallen has mystical powers instead of technological powers.

Well, were they mystical powers, or just seemed mystical because Transformers have never dealt with powers like those before? Kinda like Sunstorm, sure he had the powers like a God, but his powers weren't divine. But merely extra energy crammed into him by Shockwave.

Stormwolf wrote:

Senor Hugo wrote:The Fallen may have "supernatural" powers when it comes to dealing with other Transformers. But his powers are really only advanced upgrades given by Unicron.

I think you're confusing The Fallen with Galvatron. The Fallen already had powers of his own before joining with Unicron, it's not even certain if he ever got any additional powers from him.

Well whats the difference? Both the Fallen and Galvatron were transformers Unicron figured he could use to further his goals. Both agreed to help Unicron and joined him, thus were most likely given upgrades to help them.

Plus I don't think Primus upon building the Fallen installed a furnace in him for those flames, or gave him the ability to create a flaming portal through which he can travel.

The only difference really between the two is that the Fallen was a prototype, and Megatron/Galvatron was one of the mass-produced bots.

Stormwolf wrote:

Senor Hugo wrote:While Ghost Rider was given his powers by a guy who can easily dimension hop.

The originals have already been described to do that themselves since supposedly only 1 incarnation of them exists for every G1 alt-universe.

Well the only one we've seen hop through time and space is Vector Prime, who was built specifically to do that. Aside from the fallen who busted through a dimensional barrier so he could escape the dimension between dimensions.

Stormwolf wrote:

Senor Hugo wrote:Hell, I bet Kitty Pryde could beat The Fallen.

I'm certain you'd lose that bet.

Well it would all depend on if Shadowcat can phase through Cybertronian metal. Which is a fairly good chance.

Senor Hugo wrote:Well, were they mystical powers, or just seemed mystical because Transformers have never dealt with powers like those before? Kinda like Sunstorm, sure he had the powers like a God, but his powers weren't divine. But merely extra energy crammed into him by Shockwave.

That Hell bit didn't seem to be technology based:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/ ... llen/4.jpg

Senor Hugo wrote:Well whats the difference? Both the Fallen and Galvatron were transformers Unicron figured he could use to further his goals. Both agreed to help Unicron and joined him, thus were most likely given upgrades to help them.

Plus I don't think Primus upon building the Fallen installed a furnace in him for those flames, or gave him the ability to create a flaming portal through which he can travel.

The Fallen went to Unicron as a personal choice, Megatron/Galvatron were put in a position to serve Unicron.

His exterior could have been altered by himself, most TF's can do this by themselves nowadays anyway (through scanning of altmodes, reformats, upgrades, etc). I'm also willing to bet that Liege Maximo didn't start out looking like he does now.

Senor Hugo wrote:The only difference really between the two is that the Fallen was a prototype, and Megatron/Galvatron was one of the mass-produced bots.

The Covenant were the prototypes, the 13 originals were Primus' offspring created to help in the battle against Unicron. Megatron is Liege Maximo's offspring to execute plan B (attack Unicron with tons of Transformers if the Matrix isn't a option).

The Originals and the regular transformers are fundamentally different in the sense that they got infused with Primus powers from the start. This puts them on a different level then any of the "lesser" offspring.

Senor Hugo wrote:Well it would all depend on if Shadowcat can phase through Cybertronian metal. Which is a fairly good chance.

Remember, this is the robot from hell. Kitty Pryde will probably be:

- Torched before she gets close to him.
- Blasted from a distance.
- Incapable of passing through him since his Armor seems be indestructable.
- She passes through but ends up completely screwed up by the Fallen's infernal powers.

Remember what you're dealing with here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/ ... llen/1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/ ... llen/2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/ ... llen/3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/ ... llen/5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/ ... llen/6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/ ... llen/7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/ ... llen/8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/ ... llen/9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/ ... len/10.jpg

Well see, all the stuff he does, really just screams a tech based ability. Being able to access the circuits of a Transformers mind and either fry them like he did with Grimlock, or unlock a hidden program buried deep within the mind.

It wasn't hell he flung Bludgeon into, it was just the recesses of his mind. I figure it's a part of the Fallens ability to access the mind of the transformers, puts them into an illusion while he accesses and fiddles with their mind.

What it seems to me, Unicron upgraded him to be able to fight Primus's creations. Gave him abilities that seem mystical to Transformers who have never fought against anything like that before. Making the Fallen seem supernatural and unstoppable.

But true mystical powers don't work with technology, it's a biological energy. Dr. Doom tried using tech and sorcery together, but ultimately failed because they were too incompatible.

Which also holds true for the Shadowrun d20 stuff. The more tech you get put into your body, the more your ability to use magic and sorcery weakens.

It's like this with every peace of sci-fi/fantasy literature as well.

So this leads one to believe, that while Unicron is really just the astral projection of himself stuck in an asteroid that he turned into a giant robot, the most he was able to do was mentally convert the asteroid into his body, and through this giving him some abilities akin to his former self, but only on a tech-based level, nothing truly supernatural or mystical.

So this knowledge, and the knowledge that the Transformers themselves are giant robots with extremely advanced AI to give them sentience, and a energy source to give them life that dissipates after death the "spark." They are really just tech-based creations, which wouldn't be able to use any actual mystical abilities like characters like Doom, Dr. Strange or Baron Mordo.

Which leads one to believe that everything the Fallen could do, is just advanced tech that the Transformers had never seen or dealt with before.

But then again, what is magic but just really advanced technology that is poorly understood by the people witnessing it?

Also, with Galvatron, he did willingly accept Unicrons help. Sure he plotted to turn against him afterwards, but he did become a willingly servant to Unicron for that short time.

The problem with the Fallen, is that he was made to look like a supernatural being to the transformers by the writers.

Had he not died in that series, we'd need him to pop up on Earth or a place that uses mystical abilities to get a good comparison.

Senor Hugo wrote:Well see, all the stuff he does, really just screams a tech based ability. Being able to access the circuits of a Transformers mind and either fry them like he did with Grimlock, or unlock a hidden program buried deep within the mind.

It wasn't hell he flung Bludgeon into, it was just the recesses of his mind. I figure it's a part of the Fallens ability to access the mind of the transformers, puts them into an illusion while he accesses and fiddles with their mind.

What it seems to me, Unicron upgraded him to be able to fight Primus's creations. Gave him abilities that seem mystical to Transformers who have never fought against anything like that before. Making the Fallen seem supernatural and unstoppable.

But true mystical powers don't work with technology, it's a biological energy. Dr. Doom tried using tech and sorcery together, but ultimately failed because they were too incompatible.

Which also holds true for the Shadowrun d20 stuff. The more tech you get put into your body, the more your ability to use magic and sorcery weakens.

It's like this with every peace of sci-fi/fantasy literature as well.

So this leads one to believe, that while Unicron is really just the astral projection of himself stuck in an asteroid that he turned into a giant robot, the most he was able to do was mentally convert the asteroid into his body, and through this giving him some abilities akin to his former self, but only on a tech-based level, nothing truly supernatural or mystical.

So this knowledge, and the knowledge that the Transformers themselves are giant robots with extremely advanced AI to give them sentience, and a energy source to give them life that dissipates after death the "spark." They are really just tech-based creations, which wouldn't be able to use any actual mystical abilities like characters like Doom, Dr. Strange or Baron Mordo.

Which leads one to believe that everything the Fallen could do, is just advanced tech that the Transformers had never seen or dealt with before.

But then again, what is magic but just really advanced technology that is poorly understood by the people witnessing it?

Also, with Galvatron, he did willingly accept Unicrons help. Sure he plotted to turn against him afterwards, but he did become a willingly servant to Unicron for that short time.

The problem with the Fallen, is that he was made to look like a supernatural being to the transformers by the writers.

Had he not died in that series, we'd need him to pop up on Earth or a place that uses mystical abilities to get a good comparison.

Yeah, but now it boils down to what the Fallen's true nature is. I think I'll ask Furman when he gives us all the chance to post questions again.

Predaprince wrote:Ghost Rider doesn't stand a chance. The Fallen would pretty much just pick him up and grind him into bone dust.

And then ghosty just puts himself together again.

Ah I see heavy debating going on!
The reason I picked this fight is, that I think the Fallen is the Tf version of the Ghost Rider, just he likes being evil.

I'm pretty shure The Fallens powers are technology based, but still real powerful.

I say the Rider wins, but not without the Fallen giving a hell of a fight.

I'm not sure that this fight falls within GR's remit. The Fallen is essentially part of Primus so he's Primus's problem, not GR's.