New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby JazZeke » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:56 am

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Haven't read the issue and I'm not gonna. This is a really well-written, well-informed review that sums up what I know would aggravate me as well if I read it. Kudos for such a thought-out summation and mature acceptance of what the brand is supposed to be, which seems to be more than the author of this comic could do.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Big Grim » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:17 am

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Still interested in reading this book, but your review pretty much confirms all that I feared would occur with this comic.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Randomhero » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:18 am

I wouldn't really say the people behind the movie took a chance killing Optimus. If you ever watched the interviews with them or listened to the commentary, they're pretty adamant on saying "these are just toys and we had new toys coming so we killed off the old toys to make room for the new ones". They didn't hesitate and understand the gravity of doing so.

I did not like this comic. Not for what it's purpose was but as a comic I didn't like it. It's so cramped and does so much with such little space and even adding page count didn't help. It's really hard to follow in some places especially unicrons attack on Cybertron because he attacks and then it moves on to another scene for a few pages and you never see cybertron until the very end. I was reading this and saying "I guess he did destroy cybertron" I didn't know Cyberton was okay until he explodes and his feet are in top of it.

The writer new exactly what he was exploring with this comic and I at first thought he didn't. For my first read I was telling myself "this probably should have been written by John Barber" but then I went and looked up the tfwiki article and after reading the trivia section, this guy knew his stuff and he even explored the original script for the movie. I very much recommend reading this and then doing to the wiki and seeing all the stuff that was added. It made m enjoy this book a little more.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby RevTibe » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:27 am

Regardless of the content and quality of the comic, I'd like to take the chance to remind everyone that Megascream is nickname for Megatron/Starscream slashfiction. Heh.

Like the movie itself, I feel like this would be better in a longer form. Stretching either out over a "season" of episodes or issues would transform the planetplanetplanetBOOM feel to something more akin to a saturday morning cartoon version of Homer's Odyssey.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Randomhero » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:32 am

RevTibe wrote:Regardless of the content and quality of the comic, I'd like to take the chance to remind everyone that Megascream is nickname for Megatron/Starscream slashfiction. Heh.

Like the movie itself, I feel like this would be better in a longer form. Stretching either out over a "season" of episodes or issues would transform the planetplanetplanetBOOM feel to something more akin to a saturday morning cartoon version of Homer's Odyssey.



We did get that. 10 years ago from IDW and its regarded as one of the worst transformers comics that IDWs put out.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Desslok2201 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:44 am

o.supreme wrote:
"G1 one has been here all along" well... it has and it hasn't... There have been several "re-releases" of the toys, TRUE reproductions, which are about as authentic as you can get. Then there was TF:Regeneration 1 -Furmans attempt to bring proper closure to the Marvel Comic series. --What IDW has been doing for the past decade or so however, has been inventing a *new* G1. Kind of like JJ Abrams Star Trek. The characters in most cases do *not* match ther personalities they were given in the original comic, or animated series,


BINGO. Very well said. IDW characters may look (slightly) like G1 characters, but they're not. The characters do not have any behavioral adherence to their original tech spec personalities, comic or cartoon appearances. They do not feel like the G1 characters, because they're not. Galvatron and Cyclonus don't even pretend to be. However maligned Dreamwave is, their G1 material felt like G1 material. Pat Lee may be a &$@%#, but the work of Furman et al. during that series was compelling, and made me feel like these were the same characters I grew up with. I understand there's a big following behind current IDW stuff, and that's great, it keeps things humming along. I just don't like being told that the sky is green. It isn't.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby RevTibe » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:47 am

Randomhero wrote:
RevTibe wrote:Regardless of the content and quality of the comic, I'd like to take the chance to remind everyone that Megascream is nickname for Megatron/Starscream slashfiction. Heh.

Like the movie itself, I feel like this would be better in a longer form. Stretching either out over a "season" of episodes or issues would transform the planetplanetplanetBOOM feel to something more akin to a saturday morning cartoon version of Homer's Odyssey.



We did get that. 10 years ago from IDW and its regarded as one of the worst transformers comics that IDWs put out.
Wasn't that one a near-verbatim transcription of the film? I can't speak of that one from direct experience, since "hey, come get a non-transformative adaptation of something you've already seen" isn't an exciting enough pitch for me to buy it.

An Odyssey-type take on it would probably be between 10-20 issues/episodes, working a chunk of G1 S3's Junkion/Quintesson/random planet ideas into the journey, all with the eventual threat of Unicron looming overheard (I suppose in this case he'd be a bit farther away from Cybertron!). Not saying that would be practical under the Deviations model, but that's where I think the TFTM concept would reach its full potential.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby ZeroWolf » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:59 am

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Personally, I rather G1 toon continuity stay where it is, resting peacefully in everyone's nostalgia filled memories. Any attempt to resurrect it and then it would fall subject to everyone judging on their preconceived ideals of the g1 toon in their heads.

Also IDW have in the past called their stuff G1...so that's what it is. It operates in the vast G1 multiverse which includes marvel us comics, marvel UK comics, toy bios, g1 toon, Japanese G1 toon, Japanese g1 manga, the rest of the stuff Japanese added to G1, and that's not counting all the other stories that came out during the day.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Deadput » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:05 am

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Desslok2201 wrote:
BINGO. Very well said. IDW characters may look (slightly) like G1 characters, but they're not. The characters do not have any behavioral adherence to their original tech spec personalities, comic or cartoon appearances. They do not feel like the G1 characters, because they're not. Galvatron and Cyclonus don't even pretend to be. However maligned Dreamwave is, their G1 material felt like G1 material. Pat Lee may be a &$@%#, but the work of Furman et al. during that series was compelling, and made me feel like these were the same characters I grew up with. I understand there's a big following behind current IDW stuff, and that's great, it keeps things humming along. I just don't like being told that the sky is green. It isn't.



Except that they are G1 characters they might be in new situations but their still the same characters and while many do have vastly different roles you can definitely say who they are when you see Galvatron you can almost instantly go like "Hey that's Galvatron!" fun fact Galvatron does act a lot like his original version even if he is not a reformatted Megatron.

Funny you say you don't like being told that the sky is green because thats what your doing right now with saying that IDW is hardly G1 while Dreamwave so happens to be G1 gold but IDW is not any less G1 as Dreamwave if your going to say IDW is not G1 don't pretend that Dreamwave was.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby o.supreme » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:06 am

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Desslok2201 wrote:BINGO. Very well said. IDW characters may look (slightly) like G1 characters, but they're not. The characters do not have any behavioral adherence to their original tech spec personalities, comic or cartoon appearances. They do not feel like the G1 characters, because they're not. Galvatron and Cyclonus don't even pretend to be. However maligned Dreamwave is, their G1 material felt like G1 material. Pat Lee may be a &$@%#, but the work of Furman et al. during that series was compelling, and made me feel like these were the same characters I grew up with. I understand there's a big following behind current IDW stuff, and that's great, it keeps things humming along. I just don't like being told that the sky is green. It isn't.


Nice to find a kindred spirit. For what its worth. I actually liked Dreamwave as well, for the same reasons. It's a shame Pat Lee was a crook. Everyone else there did great work.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Desslok2201 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:07 am

ZeroWolf wrote:Personally, I rather G1 toon continuity stay where it is, resting peacefully in everyone's nostalgia filled memories. Any attempt to resurrect it and then it would fall subject to everyone judging on their preconceived ideals of the g1 toon in their heads.

Also IDW have in the past called their stuff G1...so that's what it is. It operates in the vast G1 multiverse which includes marvel us comics, marvel UK comics, toy bios, g1 toon, Japanese G1 toon, Japanese g1 manga, the rest of the stuff Japanese added to G1, and that's not counting all the other stories that came out during the day.


I get your point, I'm just saying that if I were to create a GI Joe comic where Snake Eyes is evil, Destro isn't evil or an arms dealer, Duke is a pencil pusher... I'd be using the names and appearences of characters, but should it fall under the banner of ARAH, or is it it's own entity? (Sorry to hop outside the franchise for the metaphor)
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Carnivius_Prime » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:10 am

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I agree with most of the review except for the bit that says 'Megascream' was good... That first panel where he announced his name and his new look made me roll my eyes so hard they hurt. Didn't care for the design either.

Just felt to me like the writer didn't really like many of the characters they were writing about. As mentioned Hot Rod the fool and easily disposed off Magnus, Springer, Arcee and Perceptor.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Dr. Caelus » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:19 am

I feel like the original draft for this story was maybe 4 issues long and it was forced down to a single over-sized comic.

The decision to take Daniel to Cybertron seemed out of left field. It seemed like some scene or event was cut that turned what would have been a panicked evacuation (like in the original movie) into a confusingly planned offensive.

I don't think Magnus, Arcee, and Springer were supposed to die on Junkion. I think Hot Rod was supposed to save them with that maneuver, only to have them ignore him or criticize his decision while stuck on Junkion (rather than having Kup around to tell him good job). It wasn't a bad decision, actually - a chance of blowing the engines was better than the certainty of being ripped apart by Megascream, and the other escape pod's failing was just bad luck. It was the sort of Cpt. Kirk 'brash wisdom' people often don't appreciate in Hot Rod, and I feel that Magnus and the others were killed off to cut the need for the comic issue which would have covered all of that and covered their adventure on Junkion.

I don't think the events on Quintessa were supposed to go well, or perhaps, the ramifications were supposed to be more profound. Kranix's survival obviously seems like it's supposed to have major consequences, and the fact that the Sharkticons are massacred rather than liberated, and Wheelie never turns up, seem like important 'deviations'. Without Wheelie to show them to a new ship, I think they were supposed to be stuck on the planet longer. Optimus would have battled their ancient enemies until Megascream hunted him down and took the Matrix (paralleling Galvatron's appearance on Junkion), but the need for transportation off Quintessa was removed so they could cut another issue.

And yeah, the final battle with Megascream definitely seemed rushed. For one thing, there should have been one obvious consequence of Starscream becoming Unicron's servant - relentless treachery. I was expecting some sort of Unicron Trilogy or G2 homage there, and nothing like that happened.

The other possibility I could have imagined is that because Hot Rod wasn't prevented from inadvertently causing Optimus's death, he was supposed to have not 'learned his lesson' stunting his character development with disastrous consequences. I could see how this may have been the author's intention, but because the length of the story was cut down, it did not come off well.

All in all, if one simply wanted to play with that scene, I think there would have been more interesting Deviations.

"What if Hot Rod hadn't intervened?" Everyone assumes Hot Rod caused Optimus's death when he jumped in, but any writer could stage an alternate outcome where Hot Rod doesn't tackle Megatron, and Megatron shoots Optimus in the face, killing him instantly and ending the battle in the Decepticon's favor.

"What if Megatron had surrendered?" Seriously, without fate placing the pistol in Megatron's reach, what else would Megatron have done? And what would Optimus have done?

"What if Hot Rod had tackled Optimus instead of Megatron?" Hot Rod could have jumped in to save Optimus, but done so by shielding Optimus with his body. So what if Optimus survived but at the cost of Hot Rod's life?
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Deadput » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:22 am

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Carnivius_Prime wrote:I agree with most of the review except for the bit that says 'Megascream' was good... That first panel where he announced his name and his new look made me roll my eyes so hard they hurt. Didn't care for the design either.

Just felt to me like the writer didn't really like many of the characters they were writing about. As mentioned Hot Rod the fool and easily disposed off Magnus, Springer, Arcee and Perceptor.



I agree with both the stupidity of "Megascream" (ugh that name why?) and in how I was disturbed on how easy and simple and thoughtlessly they killed off those characters it was ridiculous and disrespectful even the actual movie killed off it's characters better, hell I can't believe I'm saying this but even Cliffjumper's death in Prime was better treated (Ugh I really hate saying that).
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby RodimusRex » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:52 am

Burn wrote:I agree with pretty much everything Ryan said, but as RodimusRex pointed out, it's biggest problem was trying to re-write the movie (which back in the day took four issues to tell) in 35 pages.

Characters were off. Story was rushed. Highlight was definitely upgraded Starscream (Megascream just doesn't work) and a toy like that would be impressive to have.

Otherwise ... after last weeks X-Files Deviation, this one tried to go too big and never made it.


Incidentally, in retrospect, I would have cut pretty much from Unicron upgrading Starscream to several years later and picked an episode of Season 3 (or a mix of them or an original story). That's one way you do something like this in this kind of limited space, I think.

Cut to the Hate Plague spores, for example, being tested on Megatron's corpse
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Randomhero » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:57 am

Desslok2201 wrote:
BINGO. Very well said. IDW characters may look (slightly) like G1 characters, but they're not. The characters do not have any behavioral adherence to their original tech spec personalities, comic or cartoon appearances. They do not feel like the G1 characters, because they're not. Galvatron and Cyclonus don't even pretend to be. However maligned Dreamwave is, their G1 material felt like G1 material. Pat Lee may be a &$@%#, but the work of Furman et al. during that series was compelling, and made me feel like these were the same characters I grew up with. I understand there's a big following behind current IDW stuff, and that's great, it keeps things humming along. I just don't like being told that the sky is green. It isn't.


So do you not consider the original marvel comics from the 80s G1?

The characters in the original comics have completely different personalities from their cartoon counterparts.

prowl is a all around good guy in the cartoon, he's a prick in the original comics.
Grimlock is a simple minded earth creation in the cartoon, he's an intelligent, vain and kind of power hungry Cybertronian that fought with the autobots 4 million years ago in the comics.
Megatron in the comics is arguably the worst leader ever and he's the opposite in the cartoon.
Ratbat is just a beast cassette in the cartoon, the comics he's one of the most cunning leaders of the decepticons

Both mediums were coming out at the same time and doing their own things and fleshed out characters very differently so you can't say that IDW isn't G1 because of different personalities. That's a stupid argument.

Believe it or not, the writers of IDW do base a lot of their characters personalities and characteristics on their original bios and old comics, especially the UK stuff.

Especially prowl who was nothing but a cop car robot in the cartoon. His tech spec that you accuse IDW of ignoring is all about being a logical tactition. Hey what's prowl in IDW? All logic and tactics and strategies.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Seibertron » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:12 am

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Caelus wrote:"What if Hot Rod had tackled Optimus instead of Megatron?" Hot Rod could have jumped in to save Optimus, but done so by shielding Optimus with his body. So what if Optimus survived but at the cost of Hot Rod's life?


I think this is more along the lines of what I was thinking. Basically trading Optimus Prime's life for Hot Rod's life. I was thinking Megatron would still get reformatted into Galvatron, but be more of Unicron's slave because he couldn't bargain with Unicron since Megatron was dead. This version of Galvatron would be much more loyal to Unicron and it'd be a face off between Galvatron and Optimus Prime. I like the "What ifs" where the "what if" just delays the inevitable. In this case, with a more focused and loyal Galvatron, it is Galvatron that kills Optimus Prime, the matrix power is not unleashed, and Unicron destroys Cybertron. Basically, Optimus Prime lives so that the Transformers all die!

Oddly enough, that parallels what I think would have happened to the entire brand had Optimus Prime not died in the original movie. To understand this, all you have to do is go to your local library, look up their Microfiche archives, and read the old newspaper articles that show the public's furor (or more specifically, parents who got to see their kids devastated because their child's hero was killed).

Here's one such article from March 28th, 1987: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/ ... ime/18245/
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Desslok2201 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:20 am

Randomhero wrote:
Desslok2201 wrote:
BINGO. Very well said. IDW characters may look (slightly) like G1 characters, but they're not. The characters do not have any behavioral adherence to their original tech spec personalities, comic or cartoon appearances. They do not feel like the G1 characters, because they're not. Galvatron and Cyclonus don't even pretend to be. However maligned Dreamwave is, their G1 material felt like G1 material. Pat Lee may be a &$@%#, but the work of Furman et al. during that series was compelling, and made me feel like these were the same characters I grew up with. I understand there's a big following behind current IDW stuff, and that's great, it keeps things humming along. I just don't like being told that the sky is green. It isn't.


So do you not consider the original marvel comics from the 80s G1?

The characters in the original comics have completely different personalities from their cartoon counterparts.

prowl is a all around good guy in the cartoon, he's a prick in the original comics.
Grimlock is a simple minded earth creation in the cartoon, he's an intelligent, vain and kind of power hungry Cybertronian that fought with the autobots 4 million years ago in the comics.
Megatron in the comics is arguably the worst leader ever and he's the opposite in the cartoon.
Ratbat is just a beast cassette in the cartoon, the comics he's one of the most cunning leaders of the decepticons

Both mediums were coming out at the same time and doing their own things and fleshed out characters very differently so you can't say that IDW isn't G1 because of different personalities. That's a stupid argument.

Believe it or not, the writers of IDW do base a lot of their characters personalities and characteristics on their original bios and old comics, especially the UK stuff.

Especially prowl who was nothing but a cop car robot in the cartoon. His tech spec that you accuse IDW of ignoring is all about being a logical tactition. Hey what's prowl in IDW? All logic and tactics and strategies.

First of all, I apologize to everyone for derailing the conversation.
Secondly, what happened in infiltration, stormbringer, etc? Did we pick up the G1 characters or did we use their likenesses in a reboot? Is Spike the same character who befriended the Autobots after a forced crashlanding and 4 million year slumber (the origin and underpinning of basically every G1 premise) What I was agreeing with o.supreme about was that the current IDW run is a JJ Abrams' Star Trek- esque reboot. If you're happy with the way things are, great. I don't think any less of you personally for that. In no way have I made personal attacks on anyone, and I'm sorry if pointing out a few things causes your panties to get in a bunch.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Randomhero » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:29 am

Desslok2201 wrote:
Randomhero wrote:
Desslok2201 wrote:
BINGO. Very well said. IDW characters may look (slightly) like G1 characters, but they're not. The characters do not have any behavioral adherence to their original tech spec personalities, comic or cartoon appearances. They do not feel like the G1 characters, because they're not. Galvatron and Cyclonus don't even pretend to be. However maligned Dreamwave is, their G1 material felt like G1 material. Pat Lee may be a &$@%#, but the work of Furman et al. during that series was compelling, and made me feel like these were the same characters I grew up with. I understand there's a big following behind current IDW stuff, and that's great, it keeps things humming along. I just don't like being told that the sky is green. It isn't.


So do you not consider the original marvel comics from the 80s G1?

The characters in the original comics have completely different personalities from their cartoon counterparts.

prowl is a all around good guy in the cartoon, he's a prick in the original comics.
Grimlock is a simple minded earth creation in the cartoon, he's an intelligent, vain and kind of power hungry Cybertronian that fought with the autobots 4 million years ago in the comics.
Megatron in the comics is arguably the worst leader ever and he's the opposite in the cartoon.
Ratbat is just a beast cassette in the cartoon, the comics he's one of the most cunning leaders of the decepticons

Both mediums were coming out at the same time and doing their own things and fleshed out characters very differently so you can't say that IDW isn't G1 because of different personalities. That's a stupid argument.

Believe it or not, the writers of IDW do base a lot of their characters personalities and characteristics on their original bios and old comics, especially the UK stuff.

Especially prowl who was nothing but a cop car robot in the cartoon. His tech spec that you accuse IDW of ignoring is all about being a logical tactition. Hey what's prowl in IDW? All logic and tactics and strategies.

First of all, I apologize to everyone for derailing the conversation.
Secondly, what happened in infiltration, stormbringer, etc? Did we pick up the G1 characters or did we use their likenesses in a reboot? Is Spike the same character who befriended the Autobots after a forced crashlanding and 4 million year slumber (the origin and underpinning of basically every G1 premise) What I was agreeing with o.supreme about was that the current IDW run is a JJ Abrams' Star Trek- esque reboot. If you're happy with the way things are, great. I don't think any less of you personally for that. In no way have I made personal attacks on anyone, and I'm sorry if pointing out a few things causes your panties to get in a bunch.
Now for my next topic... Religion!



The -ation series has been brought up numerous times. Even in recent issues of MTMTE. It's not forgotten but they moved on. The infiltration protocols when the decepticons made their all out assault on the autobots in all hail megatron and were subtly brought back in RID when megatron was missing. The entire point is blend in and go unnoticed. That's what they did.

You can't argue that you don't consider it G1 because "their personalities don't match for m the old media" especially when the old media wasn't wven consit in any with personalities because they actually do and God forbid a race of robots that change shape can actually personalities and evolve. Something fans apparently can't do over time.

It's all part of the Generation One family. Even hasbro has said that. You know the company that created it all?
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby Deadput » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:34 am

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Desslok2201 wrote:First of all, I apologize to everyone for derailing the conversation.
Secondly, what happened in infiltration, stormbringer, etc? Did we pick up the G1 characters or did we use their likenesses in a reboot? Is Spike the same character who befriended the Autobots after a forced crashlanding and 4 million year slumber (the origin and underpinning of basically every G1 premise) What I was agreeing with o.supreme about was that the current IDW run is a JJ Abrams' Star Trek- esque reboot. If you're happy with the way things are, great. I don't think any less of you personally for that. In no way have I made personal attacks on anyone, and I'm sorry if pointing out a few things causes your panties to get in a bunch.
Now for my next topic... Religion!




No one is getting worked up about it we were just pointing out some things and having a CONVERSATION you know the action of two or more people talking back and forward between each other.

Yeah people tend to respond to comments with other comments surprising I know.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby RodimusRex » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:00 pm

Carnivius_Prime wrote:I agree with most of the review except for the bit that says 'Megascream' was good... That first panel where he announced his name and his new look made me roll my eyes so hard they hurt. Didn't care for the design either.

Just felt to me like the writer didn't really like many of the characters they were writing about. As mentioned Hot Rod the fool and easily disposed off Magnus, Springer, Arcee and Perceptor.


I would have preferred that Megascream look halfway between Scourge and Cyclonus, maybe like a rounded version of Machine Wars Starscream. The design didn't look very "movie" but I liked the design so I let it slide. But I kind of feel like a beard or goatee should at least be present on any G1-era Unicron reformat and, ideally, that they should have very rounded contours.

Again, IF we're playing aimchair quarterback, I think I would have thrown some kindling on the Scourge/Cyclonus theory fire by having Acid Storm get reformatted as a green Scourge ad Sunstorm as a yellow Cyclonus. Maybe new names like Dreadnought and Hurricane or something.

There was always the idea that Scourge and Cyclonus were the blue and purple seeker although there's probably a stronger case Cyclonus is Bombshell, who is a purple insecticon. But while the sweeps were uniform, the major reformats had some color matching going on.

Like I said before the issue came out (in this thread), I'd have preferred Dark Scream or Nightscream. Dark Nova would be a great obscure callback (and you might retrofit the idea that the Unicron-looking Dark Nova from Battlestars is a universe hopping Unicron-reformatted Starscream).

There's a lot of room for inside baseball with this.

I think what we got was a competent one shot that could have been more and gone further with more pages... But it didn't. So we got what we got.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby RodimusRex » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:08 pm

Randomhero wrote:
Desslok2201 wrote:
BINGO. Very well said. IDW characters may look (slightly) like G1 characters, but they're not. The characters do not have any behavioral adherence to their original tech spec personalities, comic or cartoon appearances. They do not feel like the G1 characters, because they're not. Galvatron and Cyclonus don't even pretend to be. However maligned Dreamwave is, their G1 material felt like G1 material. Pat Lee may be a &$@%#, but the work of Furman et al. during that series was compelling, and made me feel like these were the same characters I grew up with. I understand there's a big following behind current IDW stuff, and that's great, it keeps things humming along. I just don't like being told that the sky is green. It isn't.


So do you not consider the original marvel comics from the 80s G1?

The characters in the original comics have completely different personalities from their cartoon counterparts.

prowl is a all around good guy in the cartoon, he's a prick in the original comics.
Grimlock is a simple minded earth creation in the cartoon, he's an intelligent, vain and kind of power hungry Cybertronian that fought with the autobots 4 million years ago in the comics.
Megatron in the comics is arguably the worst leader ever and he's the opposite in the cartoon.
Ratbat is just a beast cassette in the cartoon, the comics he's one of the most cunning leaders of the decepticons

Both mediums were coming out at the same time and doing their own things and fleshed out characters very differently so you can't say that IDW isn't G1 because of different personalities. That's a stupid argument.

Believe it or not, the writers of IDW do base a lot of their characters personalities and characteristics on their original bios and old comics, especially the UK stuff.

Especially prowl who was nothing but a cop car robot in the cartoon. His tech spec that you accuse IDW of ignoring is all about being a logical tactition. Hey what's prowl in IDW? All logic and tactics and strategies.


I'm going to say what I lean towards is this:

With G.I.Joe, the comic is primary ARAH canon for me personally and the cartoon is apocrypha, with some cool technology and ideas worth homaging. Larry Hama defined G.I.Joe.

With Transformers, the cartoon (all of it, including at least through the end of S3) is my primary G1 canon and the Marvel comic is my apocrypha, with a few characters like Grimlock, Shockwave, Nightbeat, and Bludgeon having portrayals worth noting.

I don't think I'm alone on this. ARAH's relaunches have had continued success as the jumping off point for comics, including IDW ARAH and Devil's Due. And you can easily tack the best cartoon ideas on that framework.

Whereas G1 comic sequels like G2 and Regeneration One have never generated the same amount of heat in the modern market that toon G1 revival attempts have had. I'm very glad Furman has had a chance to shepherd continuations of his stuff but I think there would be a bigger hunger for more stuff linked in with G1 cartoon continuity.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby o.supreme » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:30 pm

Motto: "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
To try and bring this back to level... I agree 100% in that The Transformers, of all fictions has duplicitous origins (meaning, more than one, not as in deceitful). Unlike most DC and Marvel heroes that had long established comic book origins, then several animated series based on those comics, THE TRANSFORMERS had both an Animated Series and a comic book being simultaneously published, and, for good or ill, created two very different interpretations of the Robots in disguise we all love so much.

Would it be right to say one is more valid than the other? -Absoutely not. -Is it ok to like one more than the others? -Yes. Back in the 80s however, just simply by its ease of access, more kids gravitated towards the animated series because all you had to do was own a television. Going out and purchasing the comics required a small financial investment. purchasing the toys, an even larger investment, by parents in most cases.

I personally gravitate towards the animated series, it is just my preference. Do I look down on the comics> -No, in fact I own them all. But when I hear some fans say..."Well the comics were more mature"... I find that perspective to be false. There is just as much inconsistency and silliness to be found in the Marvel Comics.

Now however... for someone to say "G1 hasn't been around", like I said earlier, is a bit of a convoluted statement. Yes it is around...sort of. What IDW has done may, or may not match much of what has come in the past. Still of the original 3 mediums (Toys, Comics, and Animated Series) --2 of the 3 have been for the most part faithfully resurrected in recent years (You have Encore toys, and we had Regeneration One in the comics), what we have not had, and what I *think* fans such as Desslok2201 & I would like to see is... a return 9in some form) of the original animated series THAT IS OUR G1. Again, not saying other mediums are inferior, or unappreciated. Its just not what we are looking for at the moment. The personalities of the characters in the Dreamwave comics seemed to resonate with fans of the Animated series, again for good or ill.

Whenever I read a TF comic, to this day, even current IDW. I try to use the original TF voice actors in my head. --Do they fit with IDW, --most of the time no. (i.e.-I do not hear Frank Welker when Chromedome speaks in MTMTE) however...when I read Dreamave's comics, pretty much all the dialogue matched what I would hear the animated series characters say.

Again, I think its fine that Transformers has changed over time, and it will continue to change. However...were I a comic writer, I would have tried to give something to the fans of the original Animated series, and at least try to match some of the characters personalities to it. It is that aspect of G1 we are awaiting the return of in some way shape or form.
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby o.supreme » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:40 pm

Motto: "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
RodimusRex wrote:With Transformers, the cartoon (all of it, including at least through the end of S3) is my primary G1 canon and the Marvel comic is my apocrypha, with a few characters like Grimlock, Shockwave, Nightbeat, and Bludgeon having portrayals worth noting.


I'm pretty much in the same camp, though I know there are many fans that feel the exact opposite, and that is completely valid. I, unlike most fans however continue things all the way out to the Japanese series. That's why it is bittersweet to see characters like Metalhawk, Overlord (to a lesser degree), Star Saber, Deasthsaurus, & Dai Atlus in IDW. Just because most fans *don't know* their personalities, doesn't mean they don't exist. I may be wrong, but it just seems disrespectful. Someone looked at the Japanese characters, and without doing any research, just plugged them into the G1 IDWverse .
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Re: New IDW Comics Mini-Series 'Deviations' - What if... Optimus Never Died?

Postby RodimusRex » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:52 pm

For sure. And I will say one thing I like about Transformers vs. the super-hero franchises I follow is how Transformers has continuity FAMILIES.

Honestly, DC and Marvel's multiverses have generally been more haphazard and weighed down by specificity. Ie. there is specifically one universe where Superman is a Soviet or specifically one universe where Batman was in the Justice Society in World War II. Grant Morrison's Multiversity actually did try at least to establish a more familial relationship between universes by placing the universes on an alignment chart where you can get a feel for a universe's moral compass and values by where they're positioned.

I think Transformers' cluster approach is great. Because it allows for every variation you can imagine (including every toy shelf combination or every play session you had as a kid) to get its own universe. Nothing is WRONG.

That said, I think toon G1 subsections of the "Primax cluster" generate a special kind of heat. They're especially central for a lot of fans and continue to inspire stuff in the other universes. And that toon G1 is more INFLUENTIAL than any comic continuity.

And I think comic Joe is more influential than toon Joe, aside from a handful of things like:

The MASS Device, Duke/Scarlet, Sgt. Slaughter's prominence, There's No Place Like Springfield, and Worlds Without End.

But it's also easier to mash together toon and Marvel comic Joe than it is to mash together toon and comic G1 Transformers. And if you do, the resulting G.I.Joe is going to look more like the Marvel comic, story-wise, whereas the resulting Transformers will probably look more like the cartoon, story-wise.
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