Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

[Mach]

Independent toy maker Artist Toys released information for their upcoming product - Battle Roller at Actoys.
This version of battle roller is in scale for Masterpiece series MP04 trailer.
The rollers come with 5 different colour scheme: Blue, Silver, Black, Clear Orange and lastly Transparent type.

The toy maker also mentioned that the roller is suitable for MP1, MP04 and MP1B.






Another product with different colour scheme is the hand gun specially for MP02 Ultra Magnus. 5 types of colour choices available: Blue, Black, Silver, Clear Yellow and Transparent.




No information on the price and release date is available yet.
Click here to see original post: http://www.actoys.net/bbs/read.php?tid-390989.html

[Sabrblade]

What, no G2 purple Roller?

I get the blue, silver, and black ones, but what's with the other two?

And we know that mostly everyone's gonna want just the normal-colored black & silver gun, so why make the others?

[dragons]

looks good but im slightly disspointed the black & silver roller has better detail than the others do from the gun to the roller itself.

the other rollers are just one type of color no sets painted black or noting same with the guns they come with.

multi colord rollors part of the rainbow skittles flavor

look like they got lazy with the other types of rolloers & guns could have added some black with roller & kept the guns the same theres going to be orange color prime, with a transparent prime wich would be called ghost of prime i dont get the other 2 colors

[Seibertron]

anyone else getting really tired of these 3rd party products? i think the amount of these 3rd party UNOFFICIAL products is getting way out-of-hand. i'm starting to think we should stop reporting this stuff as news here on seibertron.com.

[Counterpunch]

anyone else getting really tired of these 3rd party products? i think the amount of these 3rd party UNOFFICIAL products is getting way out-of-hand. i'm starting to think we should stop reporting this stuff as news here on seibertron.com.

If we don't, everyone else will.

Anyway, is this a reissue of or a reproduction of the same set that was issued earlier this year?

I looked at the pictures and was like, 'Hey, I already own that...'

[Seibertron]

If we don't, everyone else will.

Peer pressure is definitely not a reason why we should keep doing it. I don't care what the other sites are doing in regard to promoting unofficial products that Hasbro and Takara Tomy didn't sanction and are a violation of copyright laws.

Let me ask this: why do we promote bootleg / KO / unofficial toys but we don't promote bootleg DVDs, Bittorrents, etc.? What's the difference? Should I start selling bootleg copies of the entire BWII and BW Neo series on Seibertron.com because it's all of a sudden a free-for-all? Where do we draw the line?

I guess I'm torn because we post images of supposedly "stolen" prototypes, which I think is OK because I don't think these are as "stolen" as everyone seems to think, plus I also think Hasbro and Takara Tomy need to just put in some real security at their factories to prevent this problem if they truly are "stolen". We apparently have a very strict rule about not posting information about bittorrents or bootleg copies of Transformers media, which I'm OK with. We don't really promote KO toys anymore such as the G1 stuff, which I think is great. But we do promote 3rd party unofficial products, which to me are generally piss-poor quality, extremely over-priced and are really no different than a KO, which is more-or-less just an unofficial product from a 3rd party company.

[Convotron]

Peer pressure is definitely not a reason why we should keep doing it. I don't care what the other sites are doing in regard to promoting unofficial products that Hasbro and Takara Tomy didn't sanction and are a violation of copyright laws.

I definitely agree here. seibertron.com is its own site and community, it should do as its management decides and not be swayed by how other sites decide to manage themselves.

I'm not sure how seibertron.com is managed but you're the site owner so I imagine you have final say on what stays or goes? I think everyone involved with management should get together and discuss this issue because it'll have to be done sooner or later. 3rd party products aren't going away anytime soon unless there's a sudden crackdown and even then, there's only so much Hasbro and Takara can do, right?

Let me ask this: why do we promote bootleg / KO / unofficial toys but we don't promote bootleg DVDs, Bittorrents, etc.? What's the difference? Should I start selling bootleg copies of the entire BWII and BW Neo series on Seibertron.com because it's all of a sudden a free-for-all? Where do we draw the line?

I think the answer is as simple as that there are different priorities for different types of unofficial/illegal material. Look at it this way, the letter of the law says any crime broken is punishable. Yet in reality, do police officers chase down every instance of littering, of jaywalking, and most other minor legal infractions when the world is filled with many more crimes of more severe nature? It's just not a realistic pursuit because there is more crime than crime stoppers out there. It's not to say that we should turn a blind eye but in the grand scheme of things, bootleg media and knock offs/counterfeits directly copy existing material/products. 3rd party producers that use the concept of Transformers as an integral part of their products are no less illegal but they are not as severe in affecting direct sales as bootleg/KO/counterfeit items because they do not offer the consumer a cheaper substitute for existing products.

I guess I'm torn because we post images of supposedly "stolen" prototypes, which I think is OK because I don't think these are as "stolen" as everyone seems to think, plus I also think Hasbro and Takara Tomy need to just put in some real security at their factories to prevent this problem if they truly are "stolen". We apparently have a very strict rule about not posting information about bittorrents or bootleg copies of Transformers media, which I'm OK with. We don't really promote KO toys anymore such as the G1 stuff, which I think is great. But we do promote 3rd party unofficial products, which to me are generally piss-poor quality, extremely over-priced and are really no different than a KO, which is more-or-less just an unofficial product from a 3rd party company.

It's a good thing for you to be torn on the matter. It's not a clear cut scenario. We're dealing with varying degrees of severity of "illegal" products. To simply say, as some would, that it's all the same, is shortsighted and is no better than to say it's all ok and let's just go free-for-all and buy anything regardless of its origin of production.

I have to, as I've stated before, say that my view on the situation is that if a 3rd party product offers something that Hasbro and Takara do not offer, I don't think it's as bad as an outright knock off. Please, someone, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't knock off mean the same thing as counterfeit, as in a copy of something?

I simply don't see some 3rd party products in the same light as a simple KO because, frankly, the City Commander add on set, for example, is not cheaply made(or doesn't feel like it), it is of its own unique design despite being inspired by the concept of the Diaclone Powered Convoy/Ultra Magnus toy. If one says that CC is the same as a $1 KO of Classics Optimus Prime molded out of cheap plastic, is hollow in structure, and has the colour scheme of a Lifesavers roll of candy, then call me blind because I don't see any parallels in these two items aside from their use of the Transformer concept. One is an outright copy of an existing product design, the other is not.

Again, this doesn't say that one 3rd party product is any more legitimate or "right" as another 3rd party product. What this means to me is that one 3rd party product is more severe than another 3rd party product in terms of affect to Hasbro/Takara. A child who doesn't know any better or a parent with the same lack of knowledge may choose the $1 KO of Classics OP due to far cheaper pricing, taking away from a potential sale of an actual Classics OP from Hasbro/Takara. On the other hand, what existing product can the CC substitute for in the Classics line of toys? In fact, the existence of something like CC and its variants has surely affected the demand for the legitimate product of Classics Optimus Prime/Ultra Magnus/Nemesis Prime.

Now does potentially helping Hasbro/Takara mean it's not something that goes into illegal waters? Not at all, it's still a 3rd party product. Does potentially helping Hasbro/Takara mean it's somehow redeemed as an unofficial product? Again, not at all, it's still a 3rd party product. No one should have to debate whether or not 3rd party products are unofficial, and thus, illegal products. The real examination should be the nature of their design and the impact of their existence in the market.

From my limited time as a collector, I've observed that most collectors purchase KOs as novelty items or in pursuit of collecting all iterations of a certain Transformer like Optimus Prime/Convoy. Their collecting still consists primarily of official products from Hasbro and Takara, enhanced by 3rd party products of good quality.

The bottom line of the situation as far as I see is that KOs/bootleg items are intrinsically harmful to the profit of companies like Hasbro/Takara. There's no way around it as they serve as cheap substitutes for existing products, which means they directly compete with official products. However, unique 3rd party products that do not have an equivalent in the licensed product line, while still not official, should not affect Hasbro/Takara in a significant way and in fact may help increase demand for official products to a degree, at least in the division of dedicated Transformers collectors worldwide.

Ultimately, I'm fine with whatever those in charge decide for seibertron.com. The fact that Seibertron is debating the matter is a good sign in my opinion. It means serious thought is being put into the situation and that's all I can ask for.

[Seibertron]

Wow, Convotron, you summed up a lot of my thoughts. Ultimately, this whole thing does come down to what I want to do with my site, but I want to do what is fair to the community, to the site in general, to the fanbase, listen to what the general community thinks about this topic, and really hear what the staff has to say about the pros and cons about this since they will ultimately be the ones who decide which stories get newsified and which ones don't.

My biggest problem is this: where do we draw the line? Every day it seems like new companies are coming out of the woodwork in China making more illegitimate products. I see people missing important news from the official companies because so many 3rd party news stories are pushing down the stories most people are here to see. I also think the 3rd party companies are abusing the news cycle by leaking news out slowly so that we'll keep posting about them.

I don't like Seibertron.com being manipulated or the overall Transformers community. I don't like the 3rd party companies taking advantage of us, of the fandom, of the Transformers brand and ultimately taking advantage of the two companies that really need our dollars right now ... especially during these economic times. Just so this isn't taken out of context, I am not saying that you shouldn't be buying things like Transformers over more important things like paying your monthly bills and the things that truly make the world go 'round.

I am saying that it has to be tough for Hasbro and Takara Tomy, considering the times currently, that not only do they have to worry about keeping us much of our money as possible by knocking out incredible products, that now they have to worry about us spending our money elsewhere on 3rd party unofficial products which, up until a couple of years ago, were never previously available (I think this all started with the Quintessons 3 years ago, if I recall correctly).

I think the real solution is that I take Dead Metal's (one of the incredible staff members that make up the Seibertron.com News Staff) advice and create a new News category called "3rd party products" or something along those lines. I could block news from that News category from display on the homepage and create a new menu option for it under the "Transformers News" dropdown. That way it gets it off the homepage, keeps it in the general news section, removes it from the Toys section (or at least create a new 3rd party news link option/page/thing for the toys section), and keeps me as a happy camper. That way the news is still available for those who want it but it doesn't kill valuable real estate for "real" news -- the news that I believe the majority of people are here to see.

[Convotron]

Drawing the line is definitely a difficult task and I don't envy your position as the site owner. I, as an individual, can think upon the matter at my leisure but you have the responsibility of running this site.

There's definitely a big opportunity for 3rd party producers to take hold of a stake in the market and I'm seeing more unofficial products that can be very tempting for Transformers collectors. It's so easy, for me at least in my newbishness, to be blinded by the "Oh, that looks cool!" affect of seeing some of the 3rd party products that are being made.

I really like Dead Metal's suggestion of a 3rd party products news section. It's a great solution. Like you said, you can delegate news about official products and happenings on the frontpage while still keeping the news of 3rd party products on the site.

I'd like to say that I really appreciate this kind of openess with the community from the site owner. I know it can be tough to interact with the community as a site owner, especially when sites and their communities become very large and responsibilities of management as well as personal life take higher priority. I'm a new collector but I've lurked around in the online Transformers communities off and on as a guest for a couple of years. No slight upon any other great sites/communities out there but I really feel like this is the place to be for me because the people are great here and these kind of discussions, which can be quite dividing, are handled with such civility.

Edit:

I forgot to add that my loyalty lie with Hasbro and Takara. It's not out of any delusion that these entities are something I can view as necessarily "deserving" of loyalty as an individual can be. It's just that these companies have created products that influenced my childhood and adult life. I'm thankful for that so I just want to make that clear despite my ownership of 3rd party products like Shadow Commander and my likely future forays into the 3rd party market.

[capellamusic]

I'd just like to add to the discussion that I think the warnings about "near perfect" KOs like the G1 KOs from Zhong Jin, the smaller MP Optimus Prime and the MP trailer from IGear, should still be posted in the main news, but as warnings instead of advertisements (unlike what has been done for the iGear products that are KOs). If you keep those out of view to the general public many people may not see about them and end up being con on eBay or other auction/store site and buy bootlegs instead of originals due to lack of knowledge. That's especially important for the G1 toys.

BTW, according to sellers on ioffer KOs Sunstreaker, Octane, Sideswipe and Red Alert are being made too. But I actually think that was already posted before, I just remembered about those now. (I wrote this by memory, so someone better confirm that...)

[metaphorge]

I think the real solution is that I take Dead Metal's (one of the incredible staff members that make up the Seibertron.com News Staff) advice and create a new News category called "3rd party products" or something along those lines. I could block news from that News category from display on the homepage and create a new menu option for it under the "Transformers News" dropdown. That way it gets it off the homepage, keeps it in the general news section, removes it from the Toys section (or at least create a new 3rd party news link option/page/thing for the toys section), and keeps me as a happy camper. That way the news is still available for those who want it but it doesn't kill valuable real estate for "real" news -- the news that I believe the majority of people are here to see.

If you do that you should also do the same for any "news" about custom items, as I don't feel there's really any difference between a third party product and a custom, as neither are authorized by HasTak.

You should also ban anyone from using copyrighted photographs or other images as avatars without permission from the copyright holders, as this also violates intellectual property laws, and this abuse is much more widespread than bootlegs/knock-offs/third party products.

Why play favorites with any sort of violation of intellectual property law?

[Convotron]

If you do that you should also do the same for any "news" about custom items, as I don't feel there's really any difference between a third party product and a custom, as neither are authorized by HasTak.

You should also ban anyone from using copyrighted photographs or other images as avatars without permission from the copyright holders, as this also violates intellectual property laws, and this abuse is much more widespread than bootlegs/knock-offs/third party products.

Why play favorites with any sort of violation of intellectual property law?

Seriously? Are you saying that if the site doesn't manage all the information that goes into the waters of IP violation, the only alternative is to manage none of it?

I'd just like to add to the discussion that I think the warnings about "near perfect" KOs like the G1 KOs from Zhong Jin, the smaller MP Optimus Prime and the MP trailer from IGear, should still be posted in the main news, but as warnings instead of advertisements (unlike what has been done for the iGear products that are KOs). If you keep those out of view to the general public many people may not see about them and end up being con on eBay or other auction/store site and buy bootlegs instead of originals due to lack of knowledge. That's especially important for the G1 toys.

I think this is a great idea. On the flip side of unofficial product news as possible promotion, it's a good thing to warn collectors about counterfeits/knock offs so they don't get tricked into buying something that isn't the real deal without their knowledge.

[metaphorge]

If you do that you should also do the same for any "news" about custom items, as I don't feel there's really any difference between a third party product and a custom, as neither are authorized by HasTak.

You should also ban anyone from using copyrighted photographs or other images as avatars without permission from the copyright holders, as this also violates intellectual property laws, and this abuse is much more widespread than bootlegs/knock-offs/third party products.

Why play favorites with any sort of violation of intellectual property law?

Seriously? Are you saying that if the site doesn't manage all the information that goes into the waters of IP violation, the only alternative is to manage none of it?

No, just that I'm kind of tired of how up-in-arms many in the fan community have gotten over potential IP-usage abuses from third-party manufacturers when most fans don't think twice about abusing IP themselves, especially with the abuse of copyright within forum avatars and signatures.

Casting stones, glass houses etc. etc.

In any case, too much ethical hand-wringing quashes journalistic integrity. Isn't seibertron.com primarily a news site, not an extension of HasTak's marketing department? Where do we draw the line between honoring HasTak's primary contributions to our hobby and senselessly (and needlessly) kissing their butts? (I don't think HasTak needs us to work very hard "protecting" them.)

Obviously the site owner can do as he wishes, but I don't feel it's in the interest of the fan community to "bury" news concerning third party products because of personal biases. Should the Associated Press, for example, refuse to cover subjects that its owners find personally distasteful?

[Convotron]

I'm sorry for having gone so far off topic, I didn't even mention the Battle Rollers yet. They have nifty colours but I'm afraid I'd be tempted to eat one to see if I could taste the rainbow(bonus points to those who get the reference!).

I like the guns for MP-02 and if I had that repaint, I'd consider the black or black and silver models.

No, just that I'm kind of tired of how up-in-arms many in the fan community have gotten over potential IP-usage abuses from third-party manufacturers when most fans don't think twice about abusing IP themselves, especially with the abuse of copyright within forum avatars and signatures.

Casting stones, glass houses etc. etc.

In any case, too much ethical hand-wringing quashes journalistic integrity. Isn't seibertron.com primarily a news site, not an extension of HasTak's marketing department? Where do we draw the line between honoring HasTak's primary contributions to our hobby and senselessly (and needlessly) kissing their butts? (I don't think HasTak needs us to work very hard "protecting" them.)

Obviously the site owner can do as he wishes, but I don't feel it's in the interest of the fan community to "bury" news concerning third party products because of personal biases. Should the Associated Press, for example, refuse to cover subjects that its owners find personally distasteful?

I can understand your reaction to much of the expressed views on the topic, however, isn't there an all-or-nothing view if you consider every violation as equal in severity? How does the effect of abuse of copyright within an avatar compare to the abuse of copyright in a knock off/counterfeit product that can directly compete with existing official products? How does the abuse of copyright of a KO product then compare to the abuse of IP in unofficial products that do not replicate the design of existing products? Are these all violations of the same magnitude and effect?

If someone doesn't seem to be concerned with copyright violation when using imagery in avatars/signatures, does that mean they also don't have concern about copyright violation in other more severe forms? Isn't that like saying if I commit a minor crime such as littering that I don't care about a more serious crime like vandalism or destruction of public property?

Journalistic integrity is to be respected for sure but is that what this really is? Is journalistic integrity about reporting anything without thought of how it is reported and the impact of the information?

As posted earlier, there is consideration for the option of managing 3rd party product news to its own section and not having it displayed on the front page of the site. Is delegating 3rd party product news to its own dedicated section and not having it on the front page any more of a "burying" of news than not having a relatively minor news piece put front page of a newspaper? I mean, newspapers have sports sections, local news sections, national and international news sections, political news sections, and only the most important news, decided by the editorial staff, gets put on the front page.

You can't have every bit of news on the front page and honestly, should 3rd party products generally be the more important news relating to Transformers than official Transformers news? It's not a restriction of information, simply one possible method of ensuring that 3rd party product news is still reported on the site while not taking up the slots for the top headlines on the front page.

I don't see the problem in having official Transformer product news as the headlines while still reporting 3rd party product news in their dedicated section. Honestly, I hardly pay attention to the front page. I skim the new galleries section to see if any new photos have been posted, skim through the headlines and then head straight for the Toy forum to start off my visit to the community. If there's 3rd party product news, I'll look for it there, not the front page.

I can't speak for Seibertron but personal bias should play a role in the management of this site. He owns it, afterall. Newspapers have editorial departments for deciding what gets published and what doesn't, right? If you go up the ladder of command, you'll eventually reach the source of editorial direction, which is affected in part by some degree of bias.

Is it really kissing Hasbro/Takara's butts to consider limiting possible promotion of unofficial products? The site isn't an extension of Hasbro and Takara nor an extension of 3rd party producers. However, in a hypothetical situation, if there is one side you'd have to take, isn't it with the actual companies that create and own the IP of the products we collect? Without those companies and their IP, 3rd party producers would have nothing to base their work off of.

Please don't misunderstand where I'm coming from, I love great 3rd party products. I own Shadow Commander and D.I.A. Powered Commander and have the Aerial Team Appendage kit on its way in the mail. However, those products can do nothing for me without official products to enhance. That's their purpose. They support and enhance official products and should take lower priority than official products.

[skywarp-2]

Personally I agree that this site is a fan oriented and news site.. and should not be treated as an extension of Hasbro/Takara. That means 3rd party news real product news and such should all be commented on.. and if an official item is being ignored because of some news about a 3rd party, then maybe the 3rd party should get covered later in the news section..

But to place the 3rd party news, regardless of whether we call it a Knock off, or Bootleg, or 3rd party Unofficial.. in a separate section buried from the actual news..

that would be a pain in the arse..

I have loyalty for seibertron.com, sure.. but if I see some news on the web or someone in a board message is talking about something I haven't seen in the main news page, I am going to that other site to check it out..if it interests me as news, I'm going to that site that comments on it..whether or not it is official merchandise or 3rd party related.

I agree healthy debate should be spawned by this and the staff, and I will be understanding of any decisions you guys make.. What ever I say is a drop in the bucket of ideas, and I will not say anything that those of you with a bias will already be against.. but my point of view on this is solid...

if the 3rd party news is Buried and not part of the regular stuff, or I have to comment on these figures outside of the normal way, then I will go some other place for 3rd party conversation..

I don't want seibertron to become the "Magisterium" and the 3rd party "Dust" being subjugated because it rises to the level of Blasphemy..

in any regard I think the site's news covering should basically remain the same, except for the official news is taken first, and then the 3rd party...

[Convotron]

As far as I understand the suggested method for handling 3rd party product news will not involve "burying" news, it's going to simply not be listed on the front page of the site as a head line. Again, looking at newspaper management, not every bit of news hits the front page, just the most important deemed by the editor(s).

Secondly and more importantly, 3rd party news would be put in its own News section forum. Now, I don't know about anyone else, but to me, that actually gives 3rd party news more of a platform because you're not sifting through the main Toys forum looking for 3rd party specific threads out of the hundreds of threads posted.

So if the speculated method were to be taken, the actual changes are:

1) No frontpage headlines for 3rd party products.

2) 3rd party products get their own dedicated News section.

Burying news implies handling the information in a way so that it is hidden and unusually difficult to access. Taking 3rd party product news from the front page headlines doesn't hide news, it just doesn't advertise it on the front page. People will say, "But isn't that the same thing? How will we know about 3rd party news?!". Well, considering that part two of the suggested method for 3rd party product news is giving 3rd party products a section devoted to their news means there is no hiding of news and actually dedicates a media section to 3rd party products, granting us a concentration of 3rd party information and making it more convenient to access.

I ask anyone who sees negativity in speculation of a change to 3rd party product news management here to please re-read Seibertron's post in this thread where Dead Metal's suggestion is mentioned. This solution is far better than a total stripping and restricting of 3rd party product news on the site.

My first post in response to Seibertron's feelings on 3rd party products in this thread was a defense/counter point to the view of 3rd party products being all alike and equally objectionable. I strongly disagree with the notion that a knock off/counterfeit product should be viewed as the same as a 3rd party product that serves a unique purpose and does not copy an existing product design. The fact of the matter is that he read my post and responded by saying that while the decision is up to him, he wants to do what is fair for the site, community, and fanbase in general. The community is welcomed to have input, staff members are also involved in the decision process. Am I the only one seeing this as a positive thing?

Also, this is just speculation at this point but I'm confident that if changes are made, and that's a BIG if, they will be fair to the community as well as the site management.

[skywarp-2]

As far as I understand the suggested method for handling 3rd party product news will not involve "burying" news, it's going to simply not be listed on the front page of the site as a head line. Again, looking at newspaper management, not every bit of news hits the front page, just the most important deemed by the editor(s).

Secondly and more importantly, 3rd party news would be put in its own News section forum. Now, I don't know about anyone else, but to me, that actually gives 3rd party news more of a platform because you're not sifting through the main Toys forum looking for 3rd party specific threads out of the hundreds of threads posted.

So if the speculated method were to be taken, the actual changes are:

1) No frontpage headlines for 3rd party products.

2) 3rd party products get their own dedicated News section.

Burying news implies handling the information in a way so that it is hidden and unusually difficult to access. Taking 3rd party product news from the front page headlines doesn't hide news, it just doesn't advertise it on the front page. People will say, "But isn't that the same thing? How will we know about 3rd party news?!". Well, considering that part two of the suggested method for 3rd party product news is giving 3rd party products a section devoted to their news means there is no hiding of news and actually dedicates a media section to 3rd party products, granting us a concentration of 3rd party information and making it more convenient to access.

I ask anyone who sees negativity in speculation of a change to 3rd party product news management here to please re-read Seibertron's post in this thread where Dead Metal's suggestion is mentioned. This solution is far better than a total stripping and restricting of 3rd party product news on the site.

My first post in response to Seibertron's feelings on 3rd party products in this thread was a defense/counter point to the view of 3rd party products being all alike and equally objectionable. I strongly disagree with the notion that a knock off/counterfeit product should be viewed as the same as a 3rd party product that serves a unique purpose and does not copy an existing product design. The fact of the matter is that he read my post and responded by saying that while the decision is up to him, he wants to do what is fair for the site, community, and fanbase in general. The community is welcomed to have input, staff members are also involved in the decision process. Am I the only one seeing this as a positive thing?

Also, this is just speculation at this point but I'm confident that if changes are made, and that's a BIG if, they will be fair to the community as well as the site management.

as well thought out as this suggestion is, I still go back to my original statement and sentiment..

This site is a fan oriented and news site.. and should not be treated as an extension of Hasbro/Takara.

that said, I don't own or manage this site, so what ever I think is moot...

it seems like a lot of work to go to lengths to segregate discussions based on manufacturer.. what is next, spearate Takra Tomy from hasbro news, separate forums for each, or Botcon Merchandise??

I can see putting 3rd party stuff into it's own forum..within the toy section.. which is in effect a way to minimize their popularity since you have to go to the toy page listing and then find the 3rd party listing then find the post you want to examine..

Honestly, I would prefer that the main page news listings stay, and the top section is officially licensed news only, and then a bar of some kind and the 3rd party news listed below the official stuff.. that way we are hip to the new official stuff and the new 3rd party stuff..but if I have to dig through a thread in a specific forum to try to find news on what is coming out from FP and I miss the opportunity to get it at a good price via preorder, then I would feel like I could have gone somewhere else and gotten that info from the front page and bought it sooner, which reflects on other things about this site.. does that make sense??

once again, that said, I don't own or manage this site, so what ever I think is moot...

[Convotron]

as well thought out as this suggestion is, I still go back to my original statement and sentiment..

This site is a fan oriented and news site.. and should not be treated as an extension of Hasbro/Takara.

I definitely agree with that statement. However, I feel that Seibertron is a fan(obviously) and as a fan, there must be some feeling of wanting to support the main brand over 3rd party producers. Does that really equate to being an extension of Hasbro/Takara? Honestly? I mean, let's stop for a moment and consider priorities. The main brand is the reason 3rd party producers exist in the first place.

that said, I don't own or manage this site, so what ever I think is moot...

once again, that said, I don't own or manage this site, so what ever I think is moot...

Not at all! I'll refer to this:

Ultimately, this whole thing does come down to what I want to do with my site, but I want to do what is fair to the community, to the site in general, to the fanbase, listen to what the general community thinks about this topic, and really hear what the staff has to say about the pros and cons about this since they will ultimately be the ones who decide which stories get newsified and which ones don't.

If our opinions didn't matter, I wouldn't have gotten a thoughtful response by Seibertron and/or this thread would have been locked after my first post on the matter because I hold a fairly lenient view on 3rd party producers.

it seems like a lot of work to go to lengths to segregate discussions based on manufacturer.. what is next, spearate Takra Tomy from hasbro news, separate forums for each, or Botcon Merchandise??

The only problem with this line of thought is that Hasbro and Takara are the official companies and Botcon seems to be supported by Hasbro to some degree as the company has had a presence there for many of the Botcons in the past.

I can see putting 3rd party stuff into it's own forum..within the toy section.. which is in effect a way to minimize their popularity since you have to go to the toy page listing and then find the 3rd party listing then find the post you want to examine..

Honestly, I would prefer that the main page news listings stay, and the top section is officially licensed news only, and then a bar of some kind and the 3rd party news listed below the official stuff..

Your idea of using the top section for official product news and a separate bar/section for 3rd party news is a great idea and actually a variation on the original suggestion by Dead Metal. It's simply a way to get official product news top billing on the front page.

that way we are hip to the new official stuff and the new 3rd party stuff..but if I have to dig through a thread in a specific forum to try to find news on what is coming out from FP and I miss the opportunity to get it at a good price via preorder, then I would feel like I could have gone somewhere else and gotten that info from the front page and bought it sooner, which reflects on other things about this site.. does that make sense??

skywarp-2, my G1 brother on this forum, I type this with sincere respect... I just don't think that several extra clicks on a mouse is significant unless one has physical issues hindering their use of a mouse. How much of a delay can one have on 3rd party product awareness if one must go three steps into a site(go the site, click on the forum listing for 3rd party products, check posts) instead of two(go to the site, click on a headline to read the news listing but you still have click one more time on the "Discuss" link to actually join the thread to post comments).

Unless you don't check the forums for weeks or even months, you're not going to miss out on pre-order deals. The front page headlines shouldn't function as the primary source of 3rd party product news as this is not a 3rd party product site.

The amount of 3rd party product news that I see in the Toys forum far outnumbers the headlines that make it on the front page and, correct me if I'm wrong, the headlines aren't updated in synch with forum postings. That means the headlines aren't updated in realtime as someone posts potential news in the forum.

One way or another, even with our current setup on the site, you still have to cruise the Toys forum to keep up-to-the-second on 3rd party product news. Even if the suggested change was made and implemented to the letter, we would not see a significant change in the way that we access news of 3rd party products. A few more clicks at most, a sub-section devoted to 3rd party products in the Toys forum. That's pretty much it.

[skywarp-2]

as well thought out as this suggestion is, I still go back to my original statement and sentiment..

This site is a fan oriented and news site.. and should not be treated as an extension of Hasbro/Takara.

I definitely agree with that statement. However, I feel that Seibertron is a fan(obviously) and as a fan, there must be some feeling of wanting to support the main brand over 3rd party producers. Does that really equate to being an extension of Hasbro/Takara? Honestly? I mean, let's stop for a moment and consider priorities. The main brand is the reason 3rd party producers exist in the first place.

No not at all, I am not against anyone's desire to support the main line..I know it came from the main companies, but I am a fan of the series, the characters and the general idea of what transformers represents.. I am in no way a fan of Hasbro or Takara Tomy those just happen to be the companies that produce these items.. I am grateful to them for this, but really.. I'm more a fan of the products.. as a consumer..should they be held on a pedestal on high because of their toy property? I am not going to go down that route, they just make what I like.. I don't walk down an isle in the toy shop going "screw Mattel!! Hasbro all the way!" I don't have a bumper stick that says "Make Mine Hasbro." or anything like that. I just like Transformers, and toys that I desire..that includes 3rd party products.

Mc Donald's makes a great double cheese Burger.. but in this hard core economic times, they made their double cheese burger 20 cents more (1.20 plus tax), and removed a piece of cheese and called it a Mc Double, which is only 1.00. while Wendy's a competitor (it is said that many fast food hamburger joints would not be around were it not for McDonalds so in a way this could be considered a knock off company) Wendy's has a double cheese Burger with 2 slices of cheese for .99 cents..

so if I buy Wendy's I am buying the product because it is cheaper, and you could call it a Knock off of McDonalds..I still buy McDonalds, but I am not overly interested in supporting them over Wendy's.. to me it is the same principle..

whether I buy from Hasbro or takara.. or a 3rd party, I am a consumer of their products, and not their company..

that said, I don't own or manage this site, so what ever I think is moot...

once again, that said, I don't own or manage this site, so what ever I think is moot...

Not at all! I'll refer to this:

Ultimately, this whole thing does come down to what I want to do with my site, but I want to do what is fair to the community, to the site in general, to the fanbase, listen to what the general community thinks about this topic, and really hear what the staff has to say about the pros and cons about this since they will ultimately be the ones who decide which stories get newsified and which ones don't.

If our opinions didn't matter, I wouldn't have gotten a thoughtful response by Seibertron and/or this thread would have been locked after my first post on the matter because I hold a fairly lenient view on 3rd party producers.

you misunderstand the meaning of those statements.. I was simply trying to say that ultimately my 1 point of view is a drop in the bucket, and ultimately it is going to be up to them (seibertron and staff) to decide where they go with this..

it seems like a lot of work to go to lengths to segregate discussions based on manufacturer.. what is next, spearate Takra Tomy from hasbro news, separate forums for each, or Botcon Merchandise??

The only problem with this line of thought is that Hasbro and Takara are the official companies and Botcon seems to be supported by Hasbro to some degree as the company has had a presence there for many of the Botcons in the past.

so Botcon gets Preference because it's toy products have been supported at the cons? well what about fansproject?
http://www.tfcon.ca/gallery/TFcon-2009
they were the main focus at the TFCON in Canada were they not? to me there is no difference..

I can see putting 3rd party stuff into it's own forum..within the toy section.. which is in effect a way to minimize their popularity since you have to go to the toy page listing and then find the 3rd party listing then find the post you want to examine..

Honestly, I would prefer that the main page news listings stay, and the top section is officially licensed news only, and then a bar of some kind and the 3rd party news listed below the official stuff..

Your idea of using the top section for official product news and a separate bar/section for 3rd party news is a great idea and actually a variation on the original suggestion by Dead Metal. It's simply a way to get official product news top billing on the front page.

thanks, i think that that one option should be it, and the rest of the topics concerning 3rd party stay in the toys forum..

actually if we covered the 3rd party products on the main page under neath the original products then it gives the official stuff precedence and still gives the 3rd party stuff a venue for fans to acknowledge new releases and such.. so if they kept the 3rd party news on the main page, then having a separate forum in the toys section for the 3rd party products wouldn't be so bad..we could easily link to topics there via the news announcement on the front page.. however that means extra Mod duty to police that section apart from the toys section simply because of a preference.. that is not my call..

that way we are hip to the new official stuff and the new 3rd party stuff..but if I have to dig through a thread in a specific forum to try to find news on what is coming out from FP and I miss the opportunity to get it at a good price via preorder, then I would feel like I could have gone somewhere else and gotten that info from the front page and bought it sooner, which reflects on other things about this site.. does that make sense??

skywarp-2, my G1 brother on this forum, I type this with sincere respect... I just don't think that several extra clicks on a mouse is significant unless one has physical issues hindering their use of a mouse. How much of a delay can one have on 3rd party product awareness if one must go three steps into a site(go the site, click on the forum listing for 3rd party products, check posts) instead of two(go to the site, click on a headline to read the news listing but you still have click one more time on the "Discuss" link to actually join the thread to post comments).

Unless you don't check the forums for weeks or even months, you're not going to miss out on pre-order deals. The front page headlines shouldn't function as the primary source of 3rd party product news as this is not a 3rd party product site.

The amount of 3rd party product news that I see in the Toys forum far outnumbers the headlines that make it on the front page and, correct me if I'm wrong, the headlines aren't updated in synch with forum postings. That means the headlines aren't updated in realtime as someone posts potential news in the forum.

One way or another, even with our current setup on the site, you still have to cruise the Toys forum to keep up-to-the-second on 3rd party product news. Even if the suggested change was made and implemented to the letter, we would not see a significant change in the way that we access news of 3rd party products. A few more clicks at most, a sub-section devoted to 3rd party products in the Toys forum. That's pretty much it.

I was speaking in generality terms as to the casual browser.. I mean the idea of this site is to also attract browsers and visits, as well as members.. I am sure clicks on the site sponsors pays for some of the sites expenses.. so to me I was thinking more of keeping the casual browser engaged..a few clicks more and some work to find info is not a hard thing to do if you know where to go readily.. but as the average browser who is short term on their viewing, a few clicks more to get info is a pain that they may just go to a different site without looking further for what they need..

it's the instant gratification age.. and as such we have to bare in mind that some people's attention spans/patience is small in terms of surfing..so making the news available on the main page to me is a must..

but making the 3rd party news not available on the main page, and burying it in it's own forum hurts the potential traffic and exposure that some passer by fans crave..why go to seibertron.com and go to the forums and then go to the 3rd party section, and then go to the specific thread about a new released product, when you can pop by other sites who have it on their front page ready to go for viewing..

yeah it seems silly that a few clicks should matter, but with the way people want instant results.. it is sad, but I'd be the same way.. as I am usually in a hurry online anyways..

[Convotron]

The main point of the situation is the questioning of promotion of 3rd party products on the front page of the site. It is more of a desire to limit possible promotion of 3rd party products than a strict endorsement of official products. However, looking at it in the light of placing official product news as the most important news for front page headlines, it is by its nature at least a partial promotion/endorsement/support of official product news, which ultimately should not be a bad thing. We're also dealing with placement of 3rd party product news rather than elimination of the news from the site.

I understand what you're getting at with the McDonalds vs Wendys example but it doesn't quite work because, first of all, the concept of the "hamburger" is not owned(as far as I know) and the concept of fast food restaurants can be traced back to various food merchant stalls found in many cultures. Two business can make identical "cheeseburgers" without infringing on each other unless they have similar traits such as naming convention such as "Large Mack" vs "Big Mac". Also, again, it's not about personal support of a product or part of the market that's in question, it's how it is handled by a web site/news source.

so Botcon gets Preference because it's toy products have been supported at the cons? well what about fansproject?
http://www.tfcon.ca/gallery/TFcon-2009
they were the main focus at the TFCON in Canada were they not? to me there is no difference..

Well, it's not the fact that Powered Commander was supported by TFcon, it's the fact that Botcon has had significant Hasbro presence in at least several Botcons that I am aware of and by extension, there is a degree of support for Botcon and some of its exclusives. The Official Transformers Toy Collectors web site store also offers Botcon exclusive items...that tells me there's some degree of support and that's what distinguishes Botcon from most other Transformers conventions.

All I can say, as I don't want to belabour the point here with a thread dedicated to 3rd party product discussion now started in the main Toys forum area, is that ultimately, 3rd party products are not the driving force of any general Transformers news site so unless there is an outright restriction of 3rd party product news, I don't see a problem with looking for room to work in how the site is managed. All Transformers related news, including 3rd party products, should be covered but how it's covered is where the problem lies.

[skywarp-2]

The main point of the situation is the questioning of promotion of 3rd party products on the front page of the site. It is more of a desire to limit possible promotion of 3rd party products than a strict endorsement of official products. However, looking at it in the light of placing official product news as the most important news for front page headlines, it is by its nature at least a partial promotion/endorsement/support of official product news, which ultimately should not be a bad thing. We're also dealing with placement of 3rd party product news rather than elimination of the news from the site.

I understand what you're getting at with the McDonalds vs Wendys example but it doesn't quite work because, first of all, the concept of the "hamburger" is not owned(as far as I know) and the concept of fast food restaurants can be traced back to various food merchant stalls found in many cultures. Two business can make identical "cheeseburgers" without infringing on each other unless they have similar traits such as naming convention such as "Large Mack" vs "Big Mac". Also, again, it's not about personal support of a product or part of the market that's in question, it's how it is handled by a web site/news source.

so Botcon gets Preference because it's toy products have been supported at the cons? well what about fansproject?
http://www.tfcon.ca/gallery/TFcon-2009
they were the main focus at the TFCON in Canada were they not? to me there is no difference..

Well, it's not the fact that Powered Commander was supported by TFcon, it's the fact that Botcon has had significant Hasbro presence in at least several Botcons that I am aware of and by extension, there is a degree of support for Botcon and some of its exclusives. The Official Transformers Toy Collectors web site store also offers Botcon exclusive items...that tells me there's some degree of support and that's what distinguishes Botcon from most other Transformers conventions.

All I can say, as I don't want to belabour the point here with a thread dedicated to 3rd party product discussion now started in the main Toys forum area, is that ultimately, 3rd party products are not the driving force of any general Transformers news site so unless there is an outright restriction of 3rd party product news, I don't see a problem with looking for room to work in how the site is managed. All Transformers related news, including 3rd party products, should be covered but how it's covered is where the problem lies.

I have to point out 2 things...

1. transformable toys didn't originate with transformers.. and Macross and Robotech actually came first.. so back to the hamburger.. it fits the same idea.. Hasbro/Takara Tomy have the dominated share of the Market, and as such the 3rd party would not exist without their pioneering the medium, same as McDonald's fast food chains of the hamburger..

2. if a con is going to endorse 1 3rd party product.. it is the same, whether listed on hasbro's website or not.. to me it is the sAME.. the minute difference as being endorsed by the company or not is immaterial in my view..Kapow toys endorses Fansproject.. so that in a way is a legitimizing factor..


in either case it has been great debating you on this subject.. you have been fair and level headed..which is more then anyone could ask for.. a very good intellectual opponent. I agree with you that we should curb our discussion here and not debate this on 2 fronts.. Good Show Ole Chap!

[Convotron]

Yeah, transformable toys, transformable machines, as a concept is older than Transformers/Diaclone. You could go back to older anime like Mazinga Z for concepts like that.

I think that there's signifcant difference between fan convention endorsement of Powered Commander and the apparent endorsement of Hasbro of some Botcon merchandise.

That being said, I appreciate the civility in this and other threads as well as the fact that we've been allowed to carry the discussion this far. I really enjoy discussing all variety of topics and having passionate and thoughtful people like to discuss matters with makes being a part of this community a great pleasure. Thank you very much!

[Kibble]

So would this mean no more promoting FansProject items as well? I remember Seibs being pretty stoked about receiving an advanced release of City Commander, doing a gallery for it, and giving it a high praise review...

PS: my intent isn't to instigate or sound like a dick...just a genuinely interesting topic which could lead to kinda major changes to the site's direction.