War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:47 am

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Indeed. I suspect if The Movie had used the Marvel adaptation, it wouldn't have caused the backlash of the final draft.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:56 am

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Indeed. I suspect if The Movie had used the Marvel adaptation, it wouldn't have caused the backlash of the final draft.
Or, my idea that I wished Deviations had used: Have Hot Rod still try to intervene, but he instead trips on his way over and ends up falling between Optimus and Megatron, accidentally taking the shot meant for Optimus. As Megatron laughs at the young Autobot's foolishness, Prime then becomes enraged and beats down Megatron, sending the Decepticons into retreat. The movie then plays out the same but with Optimus alive and accompanying Kup, the Dinobots, and a repaired but disgraced Hot Rod aboard their shuttle. Seeing potential in the young hero, Optimus takes him under his wing while Hot Rod can only think of how humiliated he feels over blundering his big hero moment, getting shot instead. Optimus doesn't notice this at first and is confused as to why Hot Rod keeps giving him the cold shoulder. By the film's end, the two resolve their differences and Optimus personally passes the Matrix over the Hot Rod, declaring him Rodimus Prime, while inside Unicron. As Rodimus defeats Galvatron and destroys Unicron, Optimus either makes a noble sacrifice to end his life as intended by the film, or lives to simply retire and take a more supporting role as an advisor to Rodimus in the proceeding season 3 episodes to come.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby sol magnus » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:00 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Indeed. I suspect if The Movie had used the Marvel adaptation, it wouldn't have caused the backlash of the final draft.
Or, my idea that I wished Deviations had used: Have Hot Rod still try to intervene, but he instead trips on his way over and ends up falling between Optimus and Megatron, accidentally taking the shot meant for Optimus. As Megatron laughs at the young Autobot's foolishness, Prime then becomes enraged and beats down Megatron, sending the Decepticons into retreat. The movie then plays out the same but with Optimus alive and accompanying Kup, the Dinobots, and a repaired but disgraced Hot Rod aboard their shuttle. Seeing potential in the young hero, Optimus takes him under his wing while Hot Rod can only think of how humiliated he feels over blundering his big hero moment, getting shot instead. Optimus doesn't notice this at first and is confused as to why Hot Rod keeps giving him the cold shoulder. By the film's end, the two resolve their differences and Optimus personally passes the Matrix over the Hot Rod, declaring him Rodimus Prime, while inside Unicron. As Rodimus defeats Galvatron and destroys Unicron, Optimus either makes a noble sacrifice to end his life as intended by the film, or lives to simply retire and take a more supporting role as an advisor to Rodimus in the proceeding season 3 episodes to come.

I like it, but where does that leave good ol Ultra Magnus?
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:06 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Indeed. I suspect if The Movie had used the Marvel adaptation, it wouldn't have caused the backlash of the final draft.
Or, my idea that I wished Deviations had used: Have Hot Rod still try to intervene, but he instead trips on his way over and ends up falling between Optimus and Megatron, accidentally taking the shot meant for Optimus. As Megatron laughs at the young Autobot's foolishness, Prime then becomes enraged and beats down Megatron, sending the Decepticons into retreat. The movie then plays out the same but with Optimus alive and accompanying Kup, the Dinobots, and a repaired but disgraced Hot Rod aboard their shuttle. Seeing potential in the young hero, Optimus takes him under his wing while Hot Rod can only think of how humiliated he feels over blundering his big hero moment, getting shot instead. Optimus doesn't notice this at first and is confused as to why Hot Rod keeps giving him the cold shoulder. By the film's end, the two resolve their differences and Optimus personally passes the Matrix over the Hot Rod, declaring him Rodimus Prime, while inside Unicron. As Rodimus defeats Galvatron and destroys Unicron, Optimus either makes a noble sacrifice to end his life as intended by the film, or lives to simply retire and take a more supporting role as an advisor to Rodimus in the proceeding season 3 episodes to come.


That or Hot Rod tries to intervene and ultimately just doesn't get there in time. Hence the "Forgive me" line still carries the appropriate weight and motivational guilt for Hot Rod moving forward. Hot Rod would then become Rodimus Prime through his own development alone and be a better leader because of it. Under the council of Ultra Magnus and Kup.

Optimus Prime died where and how he should have in The Movie. He and Megatron are a closed narrative loop. There is no point to one without the other. So for them to die by each other's hand is thematically appropriate. Just look at how completely out of place Prime was in The Rebirth to see an example of that.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby AcademyofDrX » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:17 pm

This isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing. You're all missing how critical the failure is in Hot Rod's arc. They have to establish that his brashness and lack of judgement inhibits his potential to lead. Plus, his actions must have to be consequences for it to have weight. His fault isn't failing to save Prime, it's making things worse because he doesn't think it through.

It's not dissimilar to the controversial maturity and leadership arc of another space-bound hot shot in another big scifi franchise that will remain nameless.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:19 pm

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sol magnus wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Indeed. I suspect if The Movie had used the Marvel adaptation, it wouldn't have caused the backlash of the final draft.
Or, my idea that I wished Deviations had used: Have Hot Rod still try to intervene, but he instead trips on his way over and ends up falling between Optimus and Megatron, accidentally taking the shot meant for Optimus. As Megatron laughs at the young Autobot's foolishness, Prime then becomes enraged and beats down Megatron, sending the Decepticons into retreat. The movie then plays out the same but with Optimus alive and accompanying Kup, the Dinobots, and a repaired but disgraced Hot Rod aboard their shuttle. Seeing potential in the young hero, Optimus takes him under his wing while Hot Rod can only think of how humiliated he feels over blundering his big hero moment, getting shot instead. Optimus doesn't notice this at first and is confused as to why Hot Rod keeps giving him the cold shoulder. By the film's end, the two resolve their differences and Optimus personally passes the Matrix over the Hot Rod, declaring him Rodimus Prime, while inside Unicron. As Rodimus defeats Galvatron and destroys Unicron, Optimus either makes a noble sacrifice to end his life as intended by the film, or lives to simply retire and take a more supporting role as an advisor to Rodimus in the proceeding season 3 episodes to come.

I like it, but where does that leave good ol Ultra Magnus?
He still gets to carry the Matrix, but for safekeeping in this version since Optimus senses some impending doom forthcoming and feels he needs to serve as a decoy to protect it. He chooses Magnus to bear it because he trusts him the most.

During the evacuation scene, Optimus also puts him in command of his shuttle crew while he rides with Hot Rod, Kup, and the Dinobots. Magnus retains this authority throughout the Junkion scenes after "Kup and Hot Rod just bought it!" becomes "Prime and the others just bought it!". Though, his inconsiderate "I can't deal with that now!" line is nixed for a more concerned, forlorn reaction since it's Prime who's among the crew that "bought it".

There'd be a weighing uncertainty in the air on the Junkion scenes if Prime really is gone or not, so when Magnus gets blown up by the Sweeps (since Unicron still would have told Galvatron about Ultra Magnus having the Matrix, thwarting Prime's diversionary efforts), Arcee could still say her "First Prime, now Ultra Magnus" line, assuming the worst about Optimus. When Magnus is rebuilt after the dance party, he would apologize to Optimus for losing the Matrix, but Prime would reassure him that he did his best, that they will get it back, and that he still trusts Magnus to continue the fight.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:29 pm

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AcademyofDrX wrote:This isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing.


We all know of die-hards that would disagree. I point to that horrendous Deviations book, for an example of that.
I had no issue with who and how anyone died in The Movie. Providing it sticks, I think noteworthy character death is essential for plot progression. Which is the most important part to any narrative, long term. Giving real stakes and naturally generating legacy characters ala Maximals and Predacons.

The hate [towards Hot Rod] is something I'll never understand. Akin to "Han shot first", a perception of reality obscured by bias.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby Burn » Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:01 pm

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So how about them Kingdom toys ...
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby aronjlove » Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:04 pm

Burn wrote:So how about them Kingdom toys ...
PHOTO_20210316_172605.jpg
*Beast Wars theme intensifies
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby blackeyedprime » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:02 pm

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Airrazor and Huffer are looking like my first Kingdom purchases. Might wait for a price drop on Inferno.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby D-Maximal_Primal » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:31 pm

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D-Maximal_Primal wrote:
But to answer the question: Tigerhawk is huge. He is a big winged god-cat-angel bot. He should be massive, he should have bulk, he should tower over all but OpOp and Depthcharge.

He couldn't be a leader, it would be too small for him and not do him proper justice.

So you'd like Depthcharge to also be Commander class?

We get 2 a year after this year supposedly, why not? Give him his 3rd mode proper. Give him something resembling his disk launching gimmick from the old toy. Heck, give him a big ole shard of energon to shove right in Rampage's twisted spark.

I am good with leader or commander for Depthcharge. But Tigerhawk needs commander for his sheer bulk and wing span to be done justice. Plus some good ole complex but intuitive engineering like the original would not be bad either.
AcademyofDrX wrote:It's not dissimilar to the controversial maturity and leadership arc of another space-bound hot shot in another big scifi franchise that will remain nameless.

I've honestly no idea what this is about
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:34 pm

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blackeyedprime wrote:Airrazor and Huffer are looking like my first Kingdom purchases. Might wait for a price drop on Inferno.


I still think Inferno [The Fire Engine] was a weird addition for Kingdom. To a line that could also feature Inferno [The Fire Ant].
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby RodimusConvoy13 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:27 pm

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D-Maximal_Primal wrote:
william-james88 wrote:
D-Maximal_Primal wrote:
AcademyofDrX wrote:It's not dissimilar to the controversial maturity and leadership arc of another space-bound hot shot in another big scifi franchise that will remain nameless.

I've honestly no idea what this is about


I think he’s referring to Captain Kirk in the 2009 Star Trek movie.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby Razorbeast88 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:52 pm

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I thought he was talking about Star Lord in GotG haha but that makes more sense
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:10 pm

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I was thinking Luke in Star Wars.

Or Cheetor in Beast Wars. ;)
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby Rodimus Prime » Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:48 pm

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It could be all 3 of those. But as Burn hinted, this discussion doesn't belong in a Kingdom toys thread. Take it to the Cartoons Forum.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby william-james88 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:37 pm

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:As for Kingdom though, do the Fossilisers work with the G1 figures or only the Beast Formers? I've yet to see too many reviews that even try to connect them to anyone else at all.

Oddly enough, Hasbro predominantly pairs them with the G1 characters in their stock images instead of the Beast Wars ones, probably to show that this gimmick is intended for everyone.

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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby Hellscream9999 » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:06 pm

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william-james88 wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:As for Kingdom though, do the Fossilisers work with the G1 figures or only the Beast Formers? I've yet to see too many reviews that even try to connect them to anyone else at all.

Oddly enough, Hasbro predominantly pairs them with the G1 characters in their stock images instead of the Beast Wars ones, probably to show that this gimmick is intended for everyone.

Image

Image

The beast figs - for the most part - don't have weaponizer ports, so can't utilize the gimmick to its fullest extent, especially for promotional images
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby alekese » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:13 pm

I think the pairing of fossilisers with g1 instead of beast wars is occurring largely pragmatically. The fossilisers are on an engineering level weaponisers by a different name, and work best with figures with an overabundance of 5mm ports, as has been standard for the wfc g1 figs. The design philosophy for the beast wars characters deliberately eschewed the siege pore play pattern so as to create more faithful/photogenic depictions of the characters and especially the beast modes, so as to create the best possible retail depiction for their 25th anniversary. The paleotrex harness for optimus primal that's been floating around, for example, isn't actually tabbed in anywhere, only held on by friction/the joints clamping down on primal's torso, whereas the g1 figures have the 5mm port play pattern to support more secure armor loadouts.

*edit: Hellscream beat me to it while I was typing, and much more concisely, too.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby Changewinds » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:47 pm

And while it’s a neat extra feature, I don’t think the fossilizers are as effective as the weaponizers. But I still like them as transforming dinosaur skeletons.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby ZeroWolf » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:41 am

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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
blackeyedprime wrote:Airrazor and Huffer are looking like my first Kingdom purchases. Might wait for a price drop on Inferno.


I still think Inferno [The Fire Engine] was a weird addition for Kingdom. To a line that could also feature Inferno [The Fire Ant].

I think filling out the G1 cast was more a priority then the amt that Hasbro knew didn't sell so well the first time (hence why Scavenger got his name change when it was clear it was Inferno (ant) Transmetal form.

Now, you could argue that Inferno (fire engine) could have been a contender for Selects but I'm guessing they wanted G1 Inferno to have a wide a release as possible. Thus, BW Inferno got the chop (if he was even brought up in the first place)

Still if Kingdom continues to do well, BW Inferno could easily appear when his name won't be contested.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby sol magnus » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:24 am

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Sabrblade wrote:
During the evacuation scene, Optimus also puts him in command of his shuttle crew while he rides with Hot Rod, Kup, and the Dinobots. Magnus retains this authority throughout the Junkion scenes after "Kup and Hot Rod just bought it!" becomes "Prime and the others just bought it!". Though, his inconsiderate "I can't deal with that now!" line is nixed for a more concerned, forlorn reaction since it's Prime who's among the crew that "bought it".

I'm glad you brought up Ultra Magnus' controversial line, "I can't deal with that now."

I've never read it as 'inconsiderate'. I've always read it as a realistic reaction. By that I mean it's something someone who is concerned with keeping those directly under his command alive at the time would say. Magnus, being more a realist than an optimist, would go more by the spirit of the Serenity prayer - "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference."

in that moment, Magnus had to deal with the immediate situation of him and the others on THAT shuttle not going down the same way. Of all lines in TF:TM it's the one I identify with most in 'the real world.' Ultra Magnus is the 'real world' Optimus Prime. Optimus has "The Touch". Ultra Magnus is just a competent replacement, not a total replacement. Flint Dille says in commentary they sort of dragged Magnus through the mud as in over his head. I'm paraphrasing.

Also, Springer's line is actually MORE callous than Magnus'.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Optimus Prime died where and how he should have in The Movie. He and Megatron are a closed narrative loop. There is no point to one without the other. So for them to die by each other's hand is thematically appropriate. Just look at how completely out of place Prime was in The Rebirth to see an example of that.


We agree on very little, but here we are in 100% agreement.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I still think Inferno [The Fire Engine] was a weird addition for Kingdom. To a line that could also feature Inferno [The Fire Ant].


Inferno isn't a 'weird' addition for Kingdom. Like, at all. One, Grapple was released in Earthrise and there wasn't the slot available for Inferno. Two, there was no way Grapple was getting made and Inferno unmade. Three, Inferno [the ant] isn't a 'season one Beast Wars' character IIRC. Who else in Kingdom isn't from Season One of Beast Wars?

Wanting [ant]Inferno doesn't make him make sense. Just to be on thread and to keep the status quo.
Last edited by sol magnus on Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby Rodimus Prime » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:31 am

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sol magnus wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
During the evacuation scene, Optimus also puts him in command of his shuttle crew while he rides with Hot Rod, Kup, and the Dinobots. Magnus retains this authority throughout the Junkion scenes after "Kup and Hot Rod just bought it!" becomes "Prime and the others just bought it!". Though, his inconsiderate "I can't deal with that now!" line is nixed for a more concerned, forlorn reaction since it's Prime who's among the crew that "bought it".

I'm glad you brought up Ultra Magnus' controversial line, "I can't deal with that now."

I've never read it as 'inconsiderate'. I've always read it as a realistic reaction. By that I mean it's something someone who is concerned with keeping those directly under his command alive at the time would say. Magnus, being more a realist than an optimist, would go more by the spirit of the Serenity prayer - "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference."

in that moment, Magnus had to deal with the immediate situation of him and the others on THAT shuttle not going down the same way. Of all lines in TF:TM it's the one I identify with most in 'the real world.' Ultra Magnus is the 'real world' Optimus Prime. Optimus has "The Touch". Ultra Magnus is just a competent replacement, not a total replacement.

Also, Springer's line is actually MORE callous than Magnus'.
For the 2nd time, this belongs in the Cartoons Forum.

As for the beasts not having the ports to accommodate the fossilizers, I wonder if it was just a shortsight Hasbro's part or it was a decision to keep the animal aesthetic intact.
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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby sol magnus » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:35 am

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Rodimus Prime wrote:
sol magnus wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
During the evacuation scene, Optimus also puts him in command of his shuttle crew while he rides with Hot Rod, Kup, and the Dinobots. Magnus retains this authority throughout the Junkion scenes after "Kup and Hot Rod just bought it!" becomes "Prime and the others just bought it!". Though, his inconsiderate "I can't deal with that now!" line is nixed for a more concerned, forlorn reaction since it's Prime who's among the crew that "bought it".

I'm glad you brought up Ultra Magnus' controversial line, "I can't deal with that now."

I've never read it as 'inconsiderate'. I've always read it as a realistic reaction. By that I mean it's something someone who is concerned with keeping those directly under his command alive at the time would say. Magnus, being more a realist than an optimist, would go more by the spirit of the Serenity prayer - "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference."

in that moment, Magnus had to deal with the immediate situation of him and the others on THAT shuttle not going down the same way. Of all lines in TF:TM it's the one I identify with most in 'the real world.' Ultra Magnus is the 'real world' Optimus Prime. Optimus has "The Touch". Ultra Magnus is just a competent replacement, not a total replacement.

Also, Springer's line is actually MORE callous than Magnus'.
For the 2nd time, this belongs in the Cartoons Forum.

As for the beasts not having the ports to accommodate the fossilizers, I wonder if it was just a shortsight Hasbro's part or it was a decision to keep the animal aesthetic intact.

Sorry. I made sure my post was on topic, but I just responded to what was there. Did the convo get move to cartoons, or no?

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Re: War for Cybertron Kingdom Discussion The Beasts Return!

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:44 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
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sol magnus wrote:Three, Inferno [the ant] isn't a 'season one Beast Wars' character IIRC.
Yes he is.

sol magnus wrote:Who else in Kingdom isn't from Season One of Beast Wars?
Nobody but Shadow Panther (who was still released in Japan's season 1 line), the Fossilizers, and the G1 guys.

Transmutate's in Selects so she doesn't count as part of the main line.

Beast Wars had three seasons:
  • Season 1 - normal organic beast modes
  • Season 2 - Transmetals and Fuzors
  • Season 3 - Transmetal 2s
Kingdom's main line has no toys of characters/character bodies from Seasons 2 or 3.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
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