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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:You see, my jumping on point to G1 was The Movie. So I don't have the sentimentality for Season One and Two. So when it comes to seeing what I want to see, I only have the evidence presented within the context of The Movie. I don't have the exchange in episode 16 to colour my perceptions of what I was watching in the moment. To me, Prowl was "the one with smoking eyes", Ironhide was that red guy, put down at Megatron's feet and Prime died by his own making, because he couldn't finish a fight he started.

The episodes are fresh in my mind because I am been streaming them lately.

So, it sounds to me (and I apologize for how this may come across) that without character context you make a judgement based solely out of perceived motives that you in all likelihood create out of an impression of putting yourself in the character's shoes. So, from what you saw, Prime made a fatal mistake that you attribute to arrogance or hubris.

To me the classic example of Hubris: (to use a historical reference) was in WWII during the Battle of the Denmark Strait when the British Admiralty ordered the battlecruiser HMS Hood (in reality a WWI era Light battlecruiser given the armor comparative distribution for the time) against the top of the line German Super-Battleship Bismarck. The Hood had very little chance of surviving the battle, let alone winning. In the end, there were three survivors from the crew of about 1,400. I'm sure there are better examples, but this is the one that stands out for me. Much more akin to Hot Rod attacking Megatron during the encounter. This wasn't that sort of scenario with Optimus Prime, however. Prime was as much a "battleship" as Megatron was. So, there is no hubris in him believing he is a match for Megatron.

To me, in the movie it was Prime's death that raised the stakes for the drama of the movie. Sure a lot of G1 Autobots bit the dust prior to that, but they were supporting characters and in many cases were completely interchangeable. Dialogue or plot advancement from one could easily be replaced by another. There was no indication to me that Prime was going into a battle that he could not or would not finish.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:You see, my jumping on point to G1 was The Movie. So I don't have the sentimentality for Season One and Two. So when it comes to seeing what I want to see, I only have the evidence presented within the context of The Movie. I don't have the exchange in episode 16 to colour my perceptions of what I was watching in the moment. To me, Prowl was "the one with smoking eyes", Ironhide was that red guy, put down at Megatron's feet and Prime died by his own making, because he couldn't finish a fight he started.

If the film was your jumping on point then, and I say this with no disrespect in my heart, you should refrain from making such comments about a character you don’t have a full understanding about

There’s absolutely no justification for saying Optimus Started that fight, That fight was the inevitable result of the attack on the city and we both know who started that

If any character in this discussion can be accused of hubris or arrogance it’s Hotrod, Not that I would actually describes his behaviors that way myself because an honesty I really think he was just trying to help, but he had to know there was absolutely no way he could take on Megatron himself, Not only did he not have the strength or power needed to do so but he had to know he didn’t have the experience either

And yet he jumped right into the fight; brave but a stupid move

And For sure Optimus got himself killed, but it’s because he hesitated in pulling that trigger.He knew Megatron could not be trusted, he knew Megatron had no shame and no Honer , there was no reason for Optimus to consider Megatron was really pleading for Mercy

Sunbow wasn't Shakespeare. There is no deep characterisation or motivational depth I missed out on, by not watching Season One or Two prior to The Movie. So let's not kid ourselves. Character development barely existed at all within the G1 cartoon. There was barely even an ongoing narrative, beyond a series of standalone adventures, until Season 3.

As such it was viewed in isolation, I saw the Movie and its characterisation without bias or attachment. I was also a child, so there was no value judgements or other such psychological notions involved.

Anyway What Prime started, was a fight to the death. He set the tone of this particular battle. As I said before, Prime didn't think Megatron was sincere in his plea, no. However, rather than contain the situation he mocked him and toyed with him, via monologue. Thus the fight was drawn out beyond Primes control and he was killed.

To this day, I still recommend The Movie as the pinnacle of the G1 series. For anyone looking to jump in. It tells you everything you needed to know about the cartoon. I've since tried to sit down and watch season one and two. To date, I tap out with the pilot. I adored Season 3 (& 4) as a kid, but I haven't been able to re-watch them either in later years.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote::lol: Sunbow wasn't Shakespeare.

no one implied that it was

But Regardless of the lack of “deep characterization or motivational depth” , your assessment of the motivations behind Primrs behavior proves that you certainly missed out on a lot by not watching Season One or Two prior to The Movie.

Don’t kid yourself, , your judgement and characterization of Primes actions are lacking because you had absolutely no understanding of who the character was, what he stood for , in other words you lacked the knowledge necessary to make an informed” judgement. As such viewing it in isolation did you a disservice

Anyway What Megatron started was a [b]fight the finish[/i] (be be that death or defeat) when he attacked the city, it was Megatron that set the tone of this particular battle.It was Primes job to stop Megaton, no matter the cost. And that’s exactly what Prime did, he stopped Megatron at the cost of his own life.

And he died but he really didn’t loose the fight because he accomplished what he set out to do

Prime certainly hoped Megatrons plea was sincere, which is inline with how his character was portrayed from the start, hoping against hope, far to honorable for his own good, there are a number of examples of this in both seasons in question

Finally, the film is certainly a great jumping on point as long as you understand that you’re not exactly going to get a full understanding of who these characters are and what motivates them,

AllNewSuperRobot wrote: As such it was viewed in isolation, I saw the Movie and its characterisation without bias or attachment. I was also a child, so there was no value judgements or other such psychological notions involved.

That is a incorrect assessment you have about child psychology, but this isn't the time or the place for that conversation.

Anyway What Prime started, was a fight to the death. He set the tone of this particular battle. As I said before, Prime didn't think Megatron was sincere in his plea, no. However, rather than contain the situation he mocked him and toyed with him, via monologue. Thus the fight was drawn out beyond Primes control and he was killed.

The way in which you characterize the fight is entirely different than they way I would.

Megatron started the fight by attacking the shuttle and invading Autobot City. Prime simply defending his troops as he should. As I thought we previously agreed, there was very little denoting the stakes were raised on Prime's part. There is nothing in his dialogue defining this as a final battle; whereas, Megatron killed: Brawn, Prowl, Ratchet and Ironhide. but Prime had no direct knowledge of this. If anyone started the fight and set the tone, it was Megatron.

Omega_Abyss wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote: As such it was viewed in isolation, I saw the Movie and its characterisation without bias or attachment. I was also a child, so there was no value judgements or other such psychological notions involved.

That is a incorrect assessment you have about child psychology, but this isn't the time or the place for that conversation.

Anyway What Prime started, was a fight to the death. He set the tone of this particular battle. As I said before, Prime didn't think Megatron was sincere in his plea, no. However, rather than contain the situation he mocked him and toyed with him, via monologue. Thus the fight was drawn out beyond Primes control and he was killed.

The way in which you characterize the fight is entirely different than they way I would.

Megatron started the fight by attacking the shuttle and invading Autobot City. Prime simply defending his troops as he should. As I thought we previously agreed, there was very little denoting the stakes were raised on Prime's part. There is nothing in his dialogue defining this as a final battle; whereas, Megatron killed: Brawn, Prowl, Ratchet and Ironhide. but Prime had no direct knowledge of this. If anyone started the fight and set the tone, it was Megatron.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc

We are going around in circles here, with semantics, so lets reign this in.

To correctly evaluate the flaws or weaknesses of a character, you have to be Objective, not subjective. I gave an answer to the question of this thread, because I have a complete lack of attachment to this character. So I can do that. As I see it, defending his character and actions as if he were a real person, means you can't. To that end, if you can't give an answer to the purpose of the thread, there is no point in going any further.

To say I missed some greater nuance or understanding of the character, in the most superficial interpretation of him in the entire 36 years of the franchise, is nonsense. That's fanboying.

In other words, you do you. I've answered the question of the thread with my own viewpoint on the source material. Whether or not it is agreed with is neither here nor there. Fans rarely agree with critique.

Lastly, I wasn't generalising child psychology, I was specifically referencing myself at that 3 years old. I watched what was put in front of me, enjoying it or not.

Fin

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:We are going around in circles here, with semantics, so lets reign this in.

To correctly evaluate the flaws or weaknesses of a character, you have to be Objective, not subjective. I gave an answer to the question of this thread, because I have a complete lack of attachment to this character. So I can do that. As I see it, defending his character and actions as if he were a real person, means you can't. To that end, if you can't give an answer to the purpose of the thread, there is no point in going any further.

To say I missed some greater nuance or understanding of the character, in the most superficial interpretation of him in the entire 36 years of the franchise, is nonsense. That's fanboying.

In other words, you do you. I've answered the question of the thread with my own viewpoint on the source material. Whether or not it is agreed with is neither here nor there. Fans rarely agree with critique.

Lastly, I wasn't generalising child psychology, I was specifically referencing myself at that 3 years old. I watched what was put in front of me, enjoying it or not.

Fin

Fanboying?
How little you know me or my opinions About the character and yet you make such judgements
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised since it seems you have a habit of making bold judgements on subjects you have very little knowledge about

To correctly evaluate the flaws or weaknesses of a character, to correctly Evaluate any subject, you need to have a full understanding of the subject matter and not hold any Bias.....and you claim to be coming from a “complete lack of attachment to the character. , but nothing could be father from the truth.Your opinion of the character was based on your first impression of him, your opinion of his Motivations, his attitude and disposition are all based on your initial introduction to the character which was lacking context....

And that’s exactly what you’re missing here, the context of the character history that came to two years before, Some people just can’t get over there first Impressions......Which is also evidence in your evaluation of Rodimus

I think that his greatest weakness is his situation. He's a top target for the entire Decepticon army plus a few renegade Autobots, some frightened humans and perhaps some vengeful people from prior wars on other worlds.

Responding to a 4 year old topic?

Sure, why not.

His other two components - Roller and the trailer - are probably his biggest weaknesses in combat since pain felt by one can be felt by all. But, like his tech spec says, his compassion and sense of honor are probably his biggest flaws.

In the movie he hesitated just enough to get blown away by Megatron, even without Hot Rod's interference (as shown in the comic).

He honored the duel with Megatron and left Earth with the Autobots whereas Megatron cheated to ensure victory. (Heavy Metal War)

Optimus Prime rescues Perceptor which endangers all the Autobots, despite knowing it's a trap. Soon after all the Autobots are infected with Cosmic Rust.

I don't know the comics, or the TV show more fully; these are off the top of my head. I wouldn't call him stupid or that he has hubris. He values all life, but maybe he doesn't think his actions through all the way. He is, after all, the hero in an 80s kid's cartoon. Saving an individual life at great cost and playing fair is part of what makes him a hero; a paragon. Cheating to win over Megatron, deciding to win at all costs, or abandoning Perceptor would probably make more sense, but I can't say it's something G1 Prime would do. Maybe a different, more pragmatic, character.