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When you deal with the big names, its easy. Optimus has similar characteristics and themes in all his toys so its easy to see what counts when thinking of his best toys. Same for BB (a younger character who turns into yellow car) and Grimlock (a big T-Rex that doesn't make the most of sense when he talks), Megatron (the big bad guy with lots of Firepower) and Starscream (the jet villain).

But then you get into Sideswipe, Smokescreen, Prowl and Wheeljack and it all falls apart.

Like lets say I am making a top 5 Wheeljack toys list, what counts?
Armada Wheeljack? Armada Downshift? Cybertron Downshift? Movie Q?

What about Smokescreen? He's a fairlady z guy, but in Prime he becomes a totally different character. So would he still count in a list of best Smokescreen toys?

Just things I have been wondering and wanted your input!

I think you're overthinking it. If you're ranking the top Wheeljack toys, then the list should only include toys packaged/sold with the name Wheeljack. That'a a simple criterion that will make things easy for you. Related toys that aren't technically "Wheeljack" could be menioned in the "Honorable Mentions".

GuyIncognito wrote:I think you're overthinking it. If you're ranking the top Wheeljack toys, then the list should only include toys packaged/sold with the name Wheeljack. That'a a simple criterion that will make things easy for you. Related toys that aren't technically "Wheeljack" could be menioned in the "Honorable Mentions".

Thanks for the input. But does that mean Beast Wars Inferno would be on a top 5 Inferno list?

william-james88 wrote:

GuyIncognito wrote:I think you're overthinking it. If you're ranking the top Wheeljack toys, then the list should only include toys packaged/sold with the name Wheeljack. That'a a simple criterion that will make things easy for you. Related toys that aren't technically "Wheeljack" could be menioned in the "Honorable Mentions".

Thanks for the input. But does that mean Beast Wars Inferno would be on a top 5 Inferno list?

I feel like you're trying to be thick here. lol Beast Wars Inferno is clearly a completely different character... being Predacon Fire Ant as compared to the G1 Autobot Fire Truck. So no, they would not be on the same list together. Now I'd personally allow the Wheeljack / Downshift thing if Downshift was clearly intended to be an analog for Wheeljack.

In the end, it's up to you. People are gonna complain no matter what you decide, so just go with it and have fun. All I'd say is whatever criteria you decide on, be consistent and state that clearly at the beginning to set expectations.

DangerousFat wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

GuyIncognito wrote:I think you're overthinking it. If you're ranking the top Wheeljack toys, then the list should only include toys packaged/sold with the name Wheeljack. That'a a simple criterion that will make things easy for you. Related toys that aren't technically "Wheeljack" could be menioned in the "Honorable Mentions".

Thanks for the input. But does that mean Beast Wars Inferno would be on a top 5 Inferno list?

I feel like you're trying to be thick here. lol

I was But it was to show that the name sometimes might not mean anything, hence why i brought this topic up. I too would include Downshift for Wheeljack and I would not include Armada wheeljack in a wheeljack list. I just wanted to know what people would think of that.

What about scorponok? its all different characters, but they have the same theme. then again, for that I might as well just say Top 5 scorpion toys.

I think that characters that don't exactly match their G1 archetype can count, even if they don't have the same name and exact look, as long as they are intended to fill the role of the G1 character.

As you said, when making a Wheeljack list, the Armada character of that name wouldn't make the list because he shares nothing in common with his namesake. The same might not be true of, say, Armada Prowl or Animated Prowl. Neither exactly look like their G1 namesake, but they both fulfill similar roles, and both have alt-modes that reference G1 Prowl's police car.

Ultimately, it's admittedly a judgment call. Smokescreen is a bit of a toss-up, but the Prime version is close enough that I'd let it slide.

Judgement call. No one's gonna method's gonna work for all characters. I mean, I'd be a bit miffed if you left Armada Wheeljack off the list of 'best Wheeljack' characters.

If the figure has that name, then it counts for the list. So yes, bw inferno would count in my mind for best inferno toys. Otherwise, your list needs refining to be called best g1 inferno inspired toys. Because if not, then youre just being picky and selective with an unfait g1 biased. Ttansformers are always reinventing themselves, leaving figures off just because they are completely different is a disservice to those new interpretations.


Maybe figures without the name but is a clear homage goes under honourable mentions.

Best toys category?

Look/appearance (this IS the prime attraction) and engineering in the transformation.

MP-IH/Ratchet.........'nuff said!

MrBlack wrote:As you said, when making a Wheeljack list, the Armada character of that name wouldn't make the list because he shares nothing in common with his namesake.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote: I mean, I'd be a bit miffed if you left Armada Wheeljack off the list of 'best Wheeljack' characters.

Theres no way I will be able to please all of you.

william-james88 wrote:W
Like lets say I am making a top 5 Wheeljack toys list, what counts?
Armada Wheeljack? Armada Downshift? Cybertron Downshift? Movie Q?

What about Smokescreen? He's a fairlady z guy, but in Prime he becomes a totally different character. So would he still count in a list of best Smokescreen toys?

Just things I have been wondering and wanted your input!

Prime Smokescreen might count in a rather convoluted way as being bundled in (as would the Cybertron mould repaint version) as Prime Smokescreen's alt deco is based on the Binaltech version and the Binaltech Smokescreen surely counts - I'd say Silverstreak counts as Bluestreak too (even the Stealthmode one).

As for Jackie the specific ones you mention were actually also sold a Wheeljack (aside from Cybertron Downshift- a criminal oversight on Takara's part there).

Armada Wheeljack can count if you want him too or you can say he's "Rampage" if you prefer.

Energon Downshift was actually sold as Wheeljack in Japan so no problems there. (i'm not so keen on the Micron Wheeljack being included though - but that is just me) Movie Que is also fine as likewise he has a Wheeljack version too - including one with a white deco and a more normal Wheeljack head.

RAR wrote:

william-james88 wrote:W
Like lets say I am making a top 5 Wheeljack toys list, what counts?
Armada Wheeljack? Armada Downshift? Cybertron Downshift? Movie Q?

What about Smokescreen? He's a fairlady z guy, but in Prime he becomes a totally different character. So would he still count in a list of best Smokescreen toys?

Just things I have been wondering and wanted your input!

Prime Smokescreen might count in a rather convoluted way as being bundled in (as would the Cybertron mould repaint version) as Prime Smokescreen's alt deco is based on the Binaltech version and the Binaltech Smokescreen surely counts - I'd say Silverstreak counts as Bluestreak too (even the Stealthmode one).

As for Jackie the specific ones you mention were actually also sold a Wheeljack (aside from Cybertron Downshift- a criminal oversight on Takara's part there).

Armada Wheeljack can count if you want him too or you can say he's "Rampage" if you prefer.

Energon Downshift was actually sold as Wheeljack in Japan so no problems there. (i'm not so keen on the Micron Wheeljack being included though - but that is just me) Movie Que is also fine as likewise he has a Wheeljack version too - including one with a white deco and a more normal Wheeljack head.

I thought armada wheeljack was supposed to be sideswipe.

william-james88 wrote:

RAR wrote:

william-james88 wrote:W
Like lets say I am making a top 5 Wheeljack toys list, what counts?
Armada Wheeljack? Armada Downshift? Cybertron Downshift? Movie Q?

What about Smokescreen? He's a fairlady z guy, but in Prime he becomes a totally different character. So would he still count in a list of best Smokescreen toys?

Just things I have been wondering and wanted your input!

Prime Smokescreen might count in a rather convoluted way as being bundled in (as would the Cybertron mould repaint version) as Prime Smokescreen's alt deco is based on the Binaltech version and the Binaltech Smokescreen surely counts - I'd say Silverstreak counts as Bluestreak too (even the Stealthmode one).

As for Jackie the specific ones you mention were actually also sold a Wheeljack (aside from Cybertron Downshift- a criminal oversight on Takara's part there).

Armada Wheeljack can count if you want him too or you can say he's "Rampage" if you prefer.

Energon Downshift was actually sold as Wheeljack in Japan so no problems there. (i'm not so keen on the Micron Wheeljack being included though - but that is just me) Movie Que is also fine as likewise he has a Wheeljack version too - including one with a white deco and a more normal Wheeljack head.

I thought armada wheeljack was supposed to be sideswipe.

I just mentioned Rampage as that is his Japanese Name - just so if you don't want to see him as Jackie you have an alternative - kinda like I do sometimes use the name for Armada/Micron Legend Doubleface rather than Sideways and Noisemaze for the Galaxy Force / Cybertron one then that leaves Sideways free for the other toy/s of that name.

But that is just my personal preference.

william-james88 wrote:

MrBlack wrote:As you said, when making a Wheeljack list, the Armada character of that name wouldn't make the list because he shares nothing in common with his namesake.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote: I mean, I'd be a bit miffed if you left Armada Wheeljack off the list of 'best Wheeljack' characters.

Theres no way I will be able to please all of you.

Exactly! So just do what you feel to be right.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

MrBlack wrote:As you said, when making a Wheeljack list, the Armada character of that name wouldn't make the list because he shares nothing in common with his namesake.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote: I mean, I'd be a bit miffed if you left Armada Wheeljack off the list of 'best Wheeljack' characters.

Theres no way I will be able to please all of you.

Exactly! So just do what you feel to be right.

Ok then and maybe you answered before but do you see movie sudeswipe as a version on Sideswipe?

william-james88 wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

MrBlack wrote:As you said, when making a Wheeljack list, the Armada character of that name wouldn't make the list because he shares nothing in common with his namesake.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote: I mean, I'd be a bit miffed if you left Armada Wheeljack off the list of 'best Wheeljack' characters.

Theres no way I will be able to please all of you.

Exactly! So just do what you feel to be right.

Ok then and maybe you answered before but do you see movie sudeswipe as a version on Sideswipe?

I didn't answer this, no. I do see him as a version of Sideswipe.

IMO, the name's less important than the theme of the character.

Thus RID Grimlock wouldn't count, not being a T-Rex, but rather a construction vehicle. But movie Grimlock in all his too many variations would.

Energon Downshift is absolutely intended as Wheeljack, Hasbro just already (mis)used that name for silly (TM?) reasons and had to come up with something else.

Is Armada Smokescreen to be considered along side all the racing car Smokescreens? NO WAY JOSE!

Optimum Supreme wrote:IMO, the name's less important than the theme of the character.

Thus RID Grimlock wouldn't count, not being a T-Rex, but rather a construction vehicle. But movie Grimlock in all his too many variations would.

Energon Downshift is absolutely intended as Wheeljack, Hasbro just already (mis)used that name for silly (TM?) reasons and had to come up with something else.

Is Armada Smokescreen to be considered along side all the racing car Smokescreens? NO WAY JOSE!

G1, Beast Wars, RID15 and Movie Scorpinoks. What about those? Completely different characters but the same theme of turning into scorpions. Would you put those all together?

It depends on the spirit of the list. IMO, there's two different kinds of lists you can make. One about the spirit of the character - one which includes homages - and one that is about the name and name only.

I'm very much into G1 Hot Rod. You have the usual, but I also include Excelleon and Super SpeedBreaker. Excelleon is very much based on G1 Hot Rod and SSB also seemed like an attempt to update the G1 look for a modern era. BUT SpeedBreaker himself wouldn't count. Him being blue is just different enough to not include him. Ditto regular Armada Hot Shot, but not his superlink form.

So, basically, toys that are derived from the design elements of the original version would count in this sort of list.

In terms of movie Wheeljack, the one with the G1esque head and deco would count. The regular Que would not. Energon Downshift would count. Armada Wheeljack would not. To me the stylistic choices for Armada Wheeljack make him belong to the Sideswipe list.

So there's a list that evokes the sprit of the original. This is pretty flexible. Would Cloud Rodimus count? Would Botcon SG Galvatron count towards a similar Galvy list? Judgement calls.

And then there's a list that's just about the names. Which ... isn't very satisfying. To me, when I'm looking at a list like that I want a comparison of toys with similar design features, not just a list of TFs with the same name. There's no point in comparing Beast Wars Inferno to G1 Inferno. They have nothing in common.

Ultimately it boils down to a judgement call. When does a new design become too different? It boils down to which design elements you feel are important and what the intention is behind the design. Some designs are meant to derive formt he original. Others just share the name and nothing else.

Insurgent wrote:

Optimum Supreme wrote:IMO, the name's less important than the theme of the character.

Thus RID Grimlock wouldn't count, not being a T-Rex, but rather a construction vehicle. But movie Grimlock in all his too many variations would.

Energon Downshift is absolutely intended as Wheeljack, Hasbro just already (mis)used that name for silly (TM?) reasons and had to come up with something else.

Is Armada Smokescreen to be considered along side all the racing car Smokescreens? NO WAY JOSE!

G1, Beast Wars, RID15 and Movie Scorpinoks. What about those? Completely different characters but the same theme of turning into scorpions. Would you put those all together?

I wouldn't really call that a 'theme'. It's a bit like saying G1 Spinister, Classics Mini-Con Divebomb and Energon Bulkhead all share a theme because they all turn into a helicopter. And at least they turn into the same type of helicopter! All four of those Scorponoks have very different things going on for their Scorpion modes and the RiD one in particular was lauded for having a very different and unique transformation scheme to most scorpion Transformers.

What I think Optimum was getting at is that visual cues and character/personality aspects and traits matter the most as well as what is obviously meant to be a re-use of the character and what is obviously just a re-use of the name. Of course, this can get a bit hazy considering how weird Transformers can be with this - TFP Wheeljack and Movie Optimus are clearly meant to represent a new version of their G1 counterparts but have wildly different personalities - but it's not awfully common.

IMO, you should discount very obvious cases where it's clearly just a name re-use than a character re-use - ie RiD 2001 Grimlock, Armada Sideswipe, Beast Wars Inferno etc. - and use your judgement for hazier cases like the aforementioned TFP Wheeljack. I'd also say that in the context of such lists you should include a note of it being a hazy case and maybe use the honourable mentions section to bring up a more obvious character re-use for people that do not accept said hazier case as something that counts.


Thankfully Beast Wars/Machines narrows this down completely since they share a universe with G1 and it's explicitly stated whether or not they're the same character. Though it'd admittedly be very weird to see that bird on a Top 5 Prowls list...

Kurona wrote:I wouldn't really call that a 'theme'. It's a bit like saying G1 Spinister, Classics Mini-Con Divebomb and Energon Bulkhead all share a theme because they all turn into a helicopter. And at least they turn into the same type of helicopter! All four of those Scorponoks have very different things going on for their Scorpion modes and the RiD one in particular was lauded for having a very different and unique transformation scheme to most scorpion Transformers.

yeah but unlike the example of the helicopters, these all have the same name: Scorponok. So that changes things.

Also, no worries about Beast Wars Prowl, that toy wouldnt be on any top list.

william-james88 wrote:

Kurona wrote:I wouldn't really call that a 'theme'. It's a bit like saying G1 Spinister, Classics Mini-Con Divebomb and Energon Bulkhead all share a theme because they all turn into a helicopter. And at least they turn into the same type of helicopter! All four of those Scorponoks have very different things going on for their Scorpion modes and the RiD one in particular was lauded for having a very different and unique transformation scheme to most scorpion Transformers.

yeah but unlike the example of the helicopters, these all have the same name: Scorponok. So that changes things.

Also, no worries about Beast Wars Prowl, that toy wouldnt be on any top list.

I was more or less responding to the point presented with context - their misunderstanding of Optimum's use of the word 'theme' - rather than the overall point of the thread itself.

And nice. I assume it's bad then?

BW Prowl is easily one of the best late line Deluxe new mold figures, he's a lot of fun. Not sure what Will has against him, I know he's a fan favorite around here at least. He should certainly make it on a top 5 list of bird Transformers.

Emerje

Kurona wrote:

Insurgent wrote:

Optimum Supreme wrote:IMO, the name's less important than the theme of the character.

Thus RID Grimlock wouldn't count, not being a T-Rex, but rather a construction vehicle. But movie Grimlock in all his too many variations would.

Energon Downshift is absolutely intended as Wheeljack, Hasbro just already (mis)used that name for silly (TM?) reasons and had to come up with something else.

Is Armada Smokescreen to be considered along side all the racing car Smokescreens? NO WAY JOSE!

G1, Beast Wars, RID15 and Movie Scorpinoks. What about those? Completely different characters but the same theme of turning into scorpions. Would you put those all together?

I wouldn't really call that a 'theme'. It's a bit like saying G1 Spinister, Classics Mini-Con Divebomb and Energon Bulkhead all share a theme because they all turn into a helicopter. And at least they turn into the same type of helicopter! All four of those Scorponoks have very different things going on for their Scorpion modes and the RiD one in particular was lauded for having a very different and unique transformation scheme to most scorpion Transformers.

What I think Optimum was getting at is that visual cues and character/personality aspects and traits matter the most as well as what is obviously meant to be a re-use of the character and what is obviously just a re-use of the name. Of course, this can get a bit hazy considering how weird Transformers can be with this - TFP Wheeljack and Movie Optimus are clearly meant to represent a new version of their G1 counterparts but have wildly different personalities - but it's not awfully common.

IMO, you should discount very obvious cases where it's clearly just a name re-use than a character re-use - ie RiD 2001 Grimlock, Armada Sideswipe, Beast Wars Inferno etc. - and use your judgement for hazier cases like the aforementioned TFP Wheeljack. I'd also say that in the context of such lists you should include a note of it being a hazy case and maybe use the honourable mentions section to bring up a more obvious character re-use for people that do not accept said hazier case as something that counts.


Thankfully Beast Wars/Machines narrows this down completely since they share a universe with G1 and it's explicitly stated whether or not they're the same character. Though it'd admittedly be very weird to see that bird on a Top 5 Prowls list...

I was following Optimum's use of alt modes as theme to counter argument. I know what the OP meant by theme.

Emerje wrote:BW Prowl is easily one of the best late line Deluxe new mold figures, he's a lot of fun. Not sure what Will has against him, I know he's a fan favorite around here at least. He should certainly make it on a top 5 list of bird Transformers.

Emerje

He is overly simplistic, has the whole bot undercarriage problem, adds so little to the combiner and he also has GPS.
So yeah, not a big fan.