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What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:43 pm

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sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:And this is a problem
Its no problem

its personal taste
Sorry, that was a typo I forgot to erase. :oops: Fixed now.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
The bottomline is, fanon is not canon (until made official), and that's what matters.


no, what "MATTERS" is what each person thinks matters.

each persons likes, dislikes, ideas, they all MATTER

what canon says or does not say is of no importance to some, and you nor I can say it should matter.
Then why even bother adhering to any form of canon? Why not just make up some entirely new fan canon that ignores all official canon?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
]Yeah, the terms are often used interchangeably, but couldn't one see each individual continuity as an individual canon?


again, one and many could and do, but the text book definition of the word doesnt support it.

but hell, people mis-use 100's of words everyday, its not like they are going to stop anyday soon
Dude, you have no idea. :lol:
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:59 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Sabrblade wrote:Then why even bother adhering to any form of canon?


thats just it,NO-ONE HAS TOO ,enen Hasbro doesnt all the yime.... thats my point.One can choose to adher to everything, pick and choose what they adher to or ignore it all.

It all boils down to taste.

Why not just make up some entirely new fan canon that ignores all official canon?


some have, thats their right, and its what MATTERS TO THEM.

Dude, you have no idea. :lol:

I've been married twice and have 3 daughters, the youngest is 16, so believe me when I say I have some idea, and at times it drives me nuts 8-} :BANG_HEAD:
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:18 am

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sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:Then why even bother adhering to any form of canon?


thats just it,NO-ONE HAS TOO ,enen Hasbro doesnt all the yime.... thats my point.One can choose to adher to everything, pick and choose what they adher to or ignore it all.

It all boils down to taste.

Why not just make up some entirely new fan canon that ignores all official canon?


some have, thats their right, and its what MATTERS TO THEM.
It's a chimeric fandom, ain't it. 8-} :lol:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Dude, you have no idea. :lol:

I've been married twice and have 3 daughters, the youngest is 16, so believe me when I say I have some idea, and at times it drives me nuts 8-} :BANG_HEAD:
LOL. :lol:

I went to a ghetto middle school in which I swear the majority of the student body must have taken short cuts in their grade school English education. I even got into an argument with a guy over the proper use of the phrase "stinky feet" vs. his preference of "stank feet" ("stank" is a past tense verb, not an adjective, and not even good slang). #-o :-B
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:40 am

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Sabrblade wrote:It's a chimeric fandom, ain't it. 8-} :lol:


looks up definition.............yes, thats the perfect way to put it.

LOL. :lol:

I went to a ghetto middle school in which I swear the majority of the student body must have taken short cuts in their grade school English education. I even got into an argument with a guy over the proper use of the phrase "stinky feet" vs. his preference of "stank feet" ("stank" is a past tense verb, not an adjective, and not even good slang). #-o :-B


you can find the same problem in the "richer" school districts as well.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:43 am

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sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:It's a chimeric fandom, ain't it. 8-} :lol:


looks up definition.............yes, thats the perfect way to put it.

*snip*


you can find the same problem in the "richer" school districts as well.
Yeah, unlike them, my vocabulary was not one to be trifled with. :-B :lol: :KREMZEEK:
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:59 am

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Sabrblade wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:It's a chimeric fandom, ain't it. 8-} :lol:


looks up definition.............yes, thats the perfect way to put it.

*snip*


you can find the same problem in the "richer" school districts as well.
Yeah, unlike them, my vocabulary was not one to be trifled with. :-B :lol: :KREMZEEK:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:39 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
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sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:It's a chimeric fandom, ain't it. 8-} :lol:


looks up definition.............yes, thats the perfect way to put it.

*snip*


you can find the same problem in the "richer" school districts as well.
Yeah, unlike them, my vocabulary was not one to be trifled with. :-B :lol: :KREMZEEK:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Eloquence is bliss, my friend. :lol:
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Janus Prime » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:47 am

I guess everything that had to be said about that has been said. In actuality no canon is more valid than others, not even official over unofficial. What´s the difference between imposing official canon over fanon, or the other way around, if any is just as real to one person as the other is to another?

In the bottom line, the two positions are a result of personal opinion and preference.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Shadowman » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:35 am

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Janus Prime wrote:I guess everything that had to be said about that has been said. In actuality no canon is more valid than others, not even official over unofficial. What´s the difference between imposing official canon over fanon, or the other way around, if any is just as real to one person as the other is to another?

In the bottom line, the two positions are a result of personal opinion and preference.


The problem with fanon is that is means nothing to anyone except the person who made the fanon. To most people, official canon is more valid. That's why it's official.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Rodimus Prime » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:37 am

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Shadowman wrote:To most people, official canon is more valid. That's why it's official.


Wouldn't it be the other way around? It was branded "official" by those in charge/ownership of the brand (Hasbro and Takara) therefore it is considered more valid.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:16 pm

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The problem I usually get with most people's fanons is that they sometimes tend to pass off their fanons as though they were official canon, even though they deliberately made up stuff of their own. For example, some constantly claim that WFC is absolutely a prequel to the G1 cartoon, ignoring any and all discrepancies between each. Or that certain characters from Animated are totally the same people as their G1 counterparts, having aged over the many years (they especially argue this with those who were voiced by the same voice actors in both G1 and Animated, as well as using the G1 archive footage to back their claims).

It is okay to have a fanon, but it is not okay to claim that it completely overrides official canon for everyone.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Archanubis » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:40 pm

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'Course, it doesn't help that Hasbro considers just about every Transformers continuity, from G1 to "Aligned" as canon in some for or another. :-/
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:47 pm

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
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Archanubis wrote:'Course, it doesn't help that Hasbro considers just about every Transformers continuity, from G1 to "Aligned" as canon in some for or another. :-/
What's wrong with that? They're all canon, but not all to each other. ;)
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Janus Prime » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:36 pm

Shadowman wrote: The problem with fanon is that is means nothing to anyone except the person who made the fanon. To most people, official canon is more valid. That's why it's official.


I don´t think so. I´m not talking about someone´s specific fanon, I´m talking about the whole concept. I´ll say it like this: If you consider official canon as the valid one, or the real one, then that´s your own fanon, not because you created it, but because you chose it as such.

What I mean is that whatever version anyone has in their minds, it´s the one they chose, so, whats the difference between choosing what Hasbro says and choosing something you made up? there´s no difference, Hasbro´s ideas are just as valid as mine and yours. With "valid" I don´t mean better, I mean that they are both equaly real to the person. Official canon can mean nothing to me, just as you described fanon to often be.

For example, I like to think that G1 Grimlock was always as goofy as he appeared in the 86 movie and season 3 of the cartoon, it´s just that he was playing cool in front of Optimus in the first 2 seasons. Who´s Hasbro to say I´m wrong? or to call me a lier?

I see your point, there are people who just talks crazy or come up with the most inconsistent stories, and get angry when someone tells them how weird their versions are, but there are two points about this. 1. We´ve all being that guy, let´s not be hypocritical, and 2. Don´t they have the right to choose? who really has authority to say they´re crazy? me? you? Hasbro? the answer is no one. Also, what Hasbro has to say some times isn´t very sane, is it?

I know this is a long reply, but I also have to say this: Transformers is a product, so it follows the taste of it´s market. The day that 51% of the fans decide that Arcee was really a trasvesti all the time and not a femmbot, then Hasbro will make that official. Does people want Optimus and Megatron to marry? then they´ll marry! Unicron to be Wheele´s father? he´ll be a single parent! to all be the dream of a sleeping turttle? light a candle and call him Primus!

So believing everthing Hasbro has to say is equivalent to believing what most people have to say, isn´t that fanon? isn´t the same thing as having you own story? not that you´re wrong and you shouldn´t, it´s just that if you do it´s because of you own decision and opinion, just as the people who doesn´t has theirs. Its not like an author´s work, we most belive everýthing Stephen King has to say about Dark Tower, if he says Roland has done the trip many times before, then he has, period. Transformers official status is hardly as strict... actually it isn´t strict at all.

So, in the bottom line (again), there´s no criteria to call any canon more valid than the other.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Shadowman » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:07 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Janus Prime wrote:
Shadowman wrote: The problem with fanon is that is means nothing to anyone except the person who made the fanon. To most people, official canon is more valid. That's why it's official.


I don´t think so. I´m not talking about someone´s specific fanon, I´m talking about the whole concept. I´ll say it like this: If you consider official canon as the valid one, or the real one, then that´s your own fanon, not because you created it, but because you chose it as such.


Except no. Fanon is fan-made, hence why it has "fan" in the name there. Official canon is made by official sources, and is thus, whether or not you consider it as such, the valid one.

Short version: Official sources have higher authority than anything the fans say. There's no two ways about this, and it's not a matter of opinion.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Janus Prime » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:29 pm

Shadowman wrote: it's not a matter of opinion.


Wow... OK, what ever, if that´s YOUR opinion that´s fine. I still think that your opinion is not more valid than mine or anyone else´s just because Hasbro says it is. It doesn´t matter if Hasbro says you´re right about a particular point, your opinion is just as respectful and valid as if Hasbro said otherwise.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:32 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:Eloquence is bliss, my friend. :lol:

it seems so
Shadowman wrote:The problem with fanon is that is means nothing to anyone except the person who made the fanon. To most people, official canon is more valid. That's why it's official.


Its official because its been sanctioned by Hasbro......no other reason.

as for whats its worth to each person.......that depends on their taste,likes, dislikes.

Sabrblade wrote:It is okay to have a fanon, but it is not okay to claim that it completely overrides official canon for everyone.

this

Archanubis wrote:'Course, it doesn't help that Hasbro considers just about every Transformers continuity, from G1 to "Aligned" as canon in some for or another. :-/

thats because you misunderstand the true definition of the word CANON.

its not that Hasbro considers all its continuities as canon, by the definition of the word, everything that has ever officially been sanctioned is INDEED canon.

Shadowman wrote:Except no. Fanon is fan-made, hence why it has "fan" in the name there. Official canon is made by official sources, and is thus, whether or not you consider it as such, the valid one.

Short version: Official sources have higher authority than anything the fans say. There's no two ways about this, and it's not a matter of opinion.


Except,In regards to such a long lived series, the concept of validity and authority are open personal judgment.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Shadowman » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:29 am

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Janus Prime wrote:
Shadowman wrote: it's not a matter of opinion.


Wow... OK, what ever, if that´s YOUR opinion that´s fine. I still think that your opinion is not more valid than mine or anyone else´s just because Hasbro says it is. It doesn´t matter if Hasbro says you´re right about a particular point, your opinion is just as respectful and valid as if Hasbro said otherwise.


Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Except,In regards to such a long lived series, the concept of validity and authority are open personal judgment.


Nope! Canon is decided by the creators.

Let me put it this way. Say you wrote a book series. Would you really want people coming in and saying what did and did not happen in your series, then ignoring everything you'd say to the contrary? That their opinion of your work was more "valid" than what you actually wrote?
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby RhA » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:16 am

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Shadowman wrote:
Janus Prime wrote:
Shadowman wrote: it's not a matter of opinion.


Wow... OK, what ever, if that´s YOUR opinion that´s fine. I still think that your opinion is not more valid than mine or anyone else´s just because Hasbro says it is. It doesn´t matter if Hasbro says you´re right about a particular point, your opinion is just as respectful and valid as if Hasbro said otherwise.


Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant.


Officially irrelevant. You can't decide what's relevant to whom, that's why we can afford fannon. People should be able to make their own cr*p up. Just not pass it off as official.

Eventhough discussions about that can be hilarious.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Janus Prime » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:01 am

Shadowman wrote:Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant


What bugs me about this is that that´s your opinion, what YOU think, not a universal truth. You can have your own opinion, just don´t make it a rule for everybody else. To you that´s not even an opinion, is it? well, what you´re saying IS a value judgement, not an empirical fact.


Shadowman wrote:Let me put it this way. Say you wrote a book series. Would you really want people coming in and saying what did and did not happen in your series, then ignoring everything you'd say to the contrary? That their opinion of your work was more "valid" than what you actually wrote?
[/quote]

I don´t think fanon should be regarded as more valid, but it is just as valid. Besides, like I said before, Transformers lore is a direct result of the interaction between groups of people, it´s not as strict as the work of a single author. It just isn´t.

Answer me this: If Transformers canon is so strict that no one should even try to imagine their own versions of the story, then why does it actually happen? there´s little room for that in Lord of the Rings or, let´s say, Watchmen, the structure of the fiction simply doesn´t allow it so it doesn´t happen. Are you saying Transformers has the same structure as those other fictions?
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:41 pm

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Shadowman wrote:Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant.


thats no rule, thats your personal opinion of the issue.

and in determining canon, only whats contained within the narrative is canon, no matter what the creator says.

for example, a creator could say in an interview that a character has a twin brother.....but until we see/read of that twin brother in the story its not canon.

Nope! Canon is decided by the creators.
except,we arent talking about who determines canon, but what its worth to some people.

Let me put it this way. Say you wrote a book series. Would you really want people coming in and saying what did and did not happen in your series, then ignoring everything you'd say to the contrary? That their opinion of your work was more "valid" than what you actually wrote?


What I would want isint the issue,

people have a fundamental right to decide validity and authority for themselfs.They can choose to accept or deny what I've written.But they can not dictate my further writings.
Last edited by sto_vo_kor_2000 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:42 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Janus Prime wrote:Answer me this: If Transformers canon is so strict that no one should even try to imagine their own versions of the story, then why does it actually happen? there´s little room for that in Lord of the Rings or, let´s say, Watchmen, the structure of the fiction simply doesn´t allow it so it doesn´t happen. Are you saying Transformers has the same structure as those other fictions?


I really dont see a difference, its just a matter of ones imagination
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T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby Shadowman » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:49 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Janus Prime wrote:
Shadowman wrote:Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant


What bugs me about this is that that´s your opinion, what YOU think, not a universal truth. You can have your own opinion, just don´t make it a rule for everybody else. To you that´s not even an opinion, is it? well, what you´re saying IS a value judgement, not an empirical fact.


Nope, not my opinion. That's cold hard fact. The creator's word is always more important than that of the fan's.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby robofreak » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:00 pm

Shadowman wrote:Nope, not my opinion. That's cold hard fact. The creator's word is always more important than that of the fan's.


Just to throw something in, sometimes fannon is made cannon.

Hotshot's love of JaAm has now been made cannon with the Universe release. That started as a fanmade joke.

Fan stuff can influence what happens in official cannon, but not all the time.

Just wanted to point that out.

However, most fan stuff is just that. Fan stuff.
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Re: What I am disliking about the new 'aligned' continuity

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:09 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Shadowman wrote:
Janus Prime wrote:
Shadowman wrote:Important rule: Whatever the creator says matters, everything else is irrelevant


What bugs me about this is that that´s your opinion, what YOU think, not a universal truth. You can have your own opinion, just don´t make it a rule for everybody else. To you that´s not even an opinion, is it? well, what you´re saying IS a value judgement, not an empirical fact.


Nope, not my opinion. That's cold hard fact. The creator's word is always more important than that of the fan's.


It is your opinion.

whats "important" to each of us is measured by our personal tastes.You have no right to tell someone what they think,feel or believe is not as important as that what you think,feel or believe

what the creator says is important to YOU, but may not be to others.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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