Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:02 pm

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oldskooltf wrote:Wow Sabrblade, where did you get all of that?

If you wrote it all yourself, then I'm quite impressed with all the detail.
TFWiki.net. I wasn't able to give my own two cents about this, so I just quoted the Wiki (so as to not plagarize them).

Also, I almost forgot al the continuity issues with Cybertron:
TFWiki.net wrote:Continuity
As noted [before], the Japanese version (Galaxy Force) originally treated the story as a stand-alone, unconnected to any previous story. The American version draws connections to the Armada and Energon cartoons, but various incongruities still exist:
  • In general, nobody really seems to remember the events of Energon. The Autobots act as though they've never been to Earth before and have no familiarity with its culture, despite having spent ten years there in places like Ocean City.
  • The Autobots are utterly dependent on the three human kids to help them blend into human society, when they previously had numerous human allies including Dr. Jones and his family, Rad, Alexis & Carlos, and the innumerable human inhabitants of Ocean City and the other Cybertron settlements on Earth.
  • Likewise, despite the Autobots' presence being fairly common knowledge in Energon, it is considered urgent to hide the Autobots from Earth's population in Cybertron.
  • The Cybertron cities themselves are never seen or mentioned.
  • Jetfire and Landmine both have distinctively different voices than in the previous cartoons. Red Alert has essentially the same voice, but with a newly added accent.
  • Formerly prominent characters like Rodimus, Ironhide, the Omnicons, and Kicker have vanished without a word; new characters Overhaul and Scattorshot appear out of nowhere; and Red Alert returns after being absent for all of Energon.
  • Returning characters are all in brand-new bodies with no explanation.
  • When he first combines with Leobreaker, Optimus Prime declares that he's never heard of two Autobots combining into one before. This is a rather odd statement, considering that such combinations were commonplace during Energon, and Optimus himself had been combining with other Autobots since Armada.
  • Nobody seems surprised that Megatron and Starscream are alive and well again.
  • The grand black hole is explained as a by-product of "Unicron's destruction". In Energon, that event happened in Alpha Q's alternate universe, a fact that's not mentioned in the show. Likewise, Cybertron was last seen in that same alternate universe. It's not much of a stretch to assume the Autobots moved it back where it came from, but in that case, why is it so close to the black hole?
  • The collapse of the Energon sun would mean that everything the Autobots fought for during Energon was in vain, and Alpha Q's worlds would die again, left in darkness without a sun and consumed by the black hole. Nobody seems to notice this little setback. To the contrary, Red Alert's report mentions an uninhabited planet that's not one of Alpha Q's planets as the black hole's first victim.

Within the show, most of these problems were never directly addressed; the cartoon simply went about telling its story without much regard to previous events. (Indeed, vanishing characters and new bodies had previously occurred in the changeover between Armada and Energon with equally little attention, though the stated ten-year fictional gap between those shows makes it somewhat less intrusive.)

However, external material has addressed some of the problems. The Cybertron comic storyline Balancing Act, for example, Vector Prime claims that the Autobots are suffering memory problems, caused by temporal disturbances from the Unicron Singularity. Jetfire's new accent was explained on the Hasbro web site as a result of time spent on the planet Nebulon.

Energon comic
Some fans believe that the cartoon follows the unfinished Energon comic book series from Dreamwave. Unsubstantiated rumors to this effect have swirled since the cartoon's debut, though the only "evidence" comes from media outside the cartoon:
  • The Cybertron comic storyline "Balancing Act", written by Hasbro copywriter Forest Lee, is set the same universe as the Cybertron cartoon series. But the story references events from the Energon comic, such as the Mini-Con Over-Run hooking himself into the Planetary Database — a plot point begun by the Energon comic, which would have been carried through if the book hadn't been canceled.
  • The bio of the Cybertron toy Dark Scorponok references his death at the hands of Megatron, as happened in the Energon comic but not the cartoon. However, this was overwritten when "Balancing Act" depicted Dark Scorponok as being pulled into the cartoon timeline from another universe.

The idea doesn't solve any problems; most of the contradictions between the Energon and Cybertron cartoons also exist between the Energon comic and the Cybertron cartoon. The cartoon contains no references to any events of the Energon comic.

The entire notion of a network television cartoon following up on a comparatively obscure, unfinished comic book seems counter-intuitive; furthermore, Hasbro material has presented many explanations for contradictions between the two cartoons. Why bother explaining why Cybertron Jetfire sounds different if he's not the same guy seen in Energon? Why have Vector Prime explain the differences between the two cartoons if they're not in the same continuity?

All in all, neither Cybertron nor Galaxy Force should've been retconned into the same continuity as Energon and Super Link.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Cthulhunicron » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:44 pm

Yeah, I've read those wiki pages, which is kind of what prompted this thread. I mean, they're ripping Energon to pieces over tiny little details like "the transformers don't have very good facial expressions" or "why do they need to transform if they're in space all the time and don't need a disguise?" Yeah, like G1 had no problems. You could make a pretty long list of flaws with just about any Transformers series. I don't really see the "Unicron Trilogy" being substantially more flawed than any other series. But that's just me.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Burn » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:58 pm

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
And Wiki's (more so those written by "fans") are far from accurate and impartial.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:29 pm

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Burn wrote:And Wiki's (more so those written by "fans") are far from accurate and impartial.
This is the reliable Wiki that only posts truth. The other one is the less-than-great Wiki that gets hit by vandalism.

Cthulhunicron wrote:Yeah, I've read those wiki pages, which is kind of what prompted this thread. I mean, they're ripping Energon to pieces over tiny little details like "the transformers don't have very good facial expressions" or "why do they need to transform if they're in space all the time and don't need a disguise?"
About that, it's not that they didn't have good facial expressions, it's that they didn't have any facial expressions. Seriously, nearly every 'Bot and 'Con face in that series was a blank stare all the time.

And as for the space thing, yes G1 did have some parts in space a lot, but those were mainly when they were traveling through space. Whether in a ship of flying, G1 mainly hade them traveling through space and then used their altmodes on the various planets the stories took place on.

But in Energon, this was not the case. When they were in space, they weren't just traveling through space, the stories would take place in space. Not on any planet, just the deep endless void of space. And may I ask want the point is of turning into a car in the middle of outer space when one can simply fly in robot mode? And, their wheels actually spun in space to make it look like they're driving on nothing. It just doesn't make sense (other than for Hasbro to sell toys).

And yes, they did go to some planets, but that's not space, that's a planet.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Nekoman » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:56 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:
Burn wrote:And Wiki's (more so those written by "fans") are far from accurate and impartial.
This is the reliable Wiki that only posts truth. The other one is the less-than-great Wiki that gets hit by vandalism.


If you're referring to TFWiki.net, then I have to disagree. They are incredibly biased there, and list “criticisms ” for almost every series except for example, Animated. Their Energon page is so biased I can hardly read it… The people who work on TFWiki.net are decent, but the Wiki itself is far from accurate or impartial.

Armada, Energon, and Cybertron have their problems, but honestly I’m not enjoying this hobby as much as I did when they were still going. Don’t get me wrong, but all we’ve had is movie and Animated since 07. The movie’s pretty good, but I hate Animated for the most part, meaning I haven’t had a TF cartoon I really enjoy since Cybertron. Animated just deviates too far from everything else.

So listen up Hasbro! Send it back to the land of the rising sun, where Transformers and almost everything is better. :mrgreen:
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Cthulhunicron » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:07 pm

Sabrblade wrote:About that, it's not that they didn't have good facial expressions, it's that they didn't have any facial expressions. Seriously, nearly every 'Bot and 'Con face in that series was a blank stare all the time.


I'm not saying the animation is perfect. Beast Wars easily beats it, but I'm just saying it's not terrible. If you're going to tear Energon to pieces because the animation is not top notch, than how can one enjoy G1?

Sabrblade wrote:And as for the space thing, yes G1 did have some parts in space a lot, but those were mainly when they were traveling through space. Whether in a ship of flying, G1 mainly hade them traveling through space and then used their altmodes on the various planets the stories took place on.

But in Energon, this was not the case. When they were in space, they weren't just traveling through space, the stories would take place in space. Not on any planet, just the deep endless void of space. And may I ask want the point is of turning into a car in the middle of outer space when one can simply fly in robot mode? And, their wheels actually spun in space to make it look like they're driving on nothing. It just doesn't make sense (other than for Hasbro to sell toys).

And yes, they did go to some planets, but that's not space, that's a planet.


Yes, clearly, Energon is the only series where nonsensical things happened. They should have made it more like G1 where everything was perfect and made sense.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:16 pm

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Cthulhunicron wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:About that, it's not that they didn't have good facial expressions, it's that they didn't have any facial expressions. Seriously, nearly every 'Bot and 'Con face in that series was a blank stare all the time.


I'm not saying the animation is perfect. Beast Wars easily beats it, but I'm just saying it's not terrible. If you're going to tear Energon to pieces because the animation is not top notch, than how can one enjoy G1?
G1's animation is primitive compared to animtion of today, BUT was good for it's time.

Energon, on the other hand, had very primitive CGI compared to other CGI of that time, which was not too long ago. However, the 2D animation of the humans and such was quite good nicely done. It's only the CGI that wasn't great.

Think about it, CGI from a show that aired eight years before (Beast Wars) was better than the CGI of Energon. Shouldn't the CGI of the later show be more advanced and superior to the older one, rather than the other way round?

Yes, no series is perfect, but Energon was a little more imperfect than the others (notice I say "a little more" rather than "a LOT more").
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Burn » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:22 am

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
Sabrblade wrote:
Burn wrote:And Wiki's (more so those written by "fans") are far from accurate and impartial.
This is the reliable Wiki that only posts truth. The other one is the less-than-great Wiki that gets hit by vandalism.


You copy and pasted the criticisms, do they have any praises? I'd check for myself but the little blighter doesn't want to load.

Though I have to say, what you copied sounds a little bias to me, especially the way they seem to know what all the fans think.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:23 am

Motto: "It's not done right if it's not done well."
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Burn wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Burn wrote:And Wiki's (more so those written by "fans") are far from accurate and impartial.
This is the reliable Wiki that only posts truth. The other one is the less-than-great Wiki that gets hit by vandalism.


You copy and pasted the criticisms, do they have any praises? I'd check for myself but the little blighter doesn't want to load.

Though I have to say, what you copied sounds a little bias to me, especially the way they seem to know what all the fans think.
I copied the Cybertron Praises and the Armada Reception (which describes its success) as well. Energon however, didn't have much of anything positve on that site.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby sylvia » Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:29 pm

Too many annoying kids in too important roles, plus Starscream's characterization was off in Armada and Energon.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Duke of Luns » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:19 pm

sylvia wrote:Too many annoying kids in too important roles, plus Starscream's characterization was off in Armada and Energon.


I thought Starscream's characterization was perfect in Armada, because Armada Screamer isn't G1 Screamer. Why should everyone named Starscream be a backstabbing, egotystical power monger?

But Energon Starscream was very boring. Shame considering he's one of the best Energon figures.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Burn » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:10 am

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Starscream in Armada was bloody awesome!

And like DoL said, why does every Starscream have to be a backstabber?

In fact, why does a character who shares the same name with a character from a previous series have the same characterisation?

Or am I just one of those silly people who'd like to see a TF series that didn't borrow from previous series? ie, SOMETHING ORIGINAL!
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby oldskooltf » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:36 am

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Burn wrote:In fact, why does a character who shares the same name with a character from a previous series have the same characterisation?


Energon Ironhide didn't. Same goes for Armada/Cybertron Red Alert compared to G1 Red Alert. Same goes for Armada Thrust, Scavenger, and Definitely Armada/Energon Cyclonus. Also Cybertron Scourge, Metroplex, and Menasor,... also Movie Skids (I'm just guessing on that one), and the list goes on... (for a little while :D )


Burn wrote:Or am I just one of those silly people who'd like to see a TF series that didn't borrow from previous series? ie, SOMETHING ORIGINAL!


They already did. It was called Beast Wars. Oh... I guess we can include Kiss Players too. ;;)
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Sabrblade » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:12 pm

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oldskooltf wrote:
Burn wrote:In fact, why does a character who shares the same name with a character from a previous series have the same characterisation?


Energon Ironhide didn't. Same goes for Armada/Cybertron Red Alert compared to G1 Red Alert. Same goes for Armada Thrust, Scavenger, and Definitely Armada/Energon Cyclonus. Also Cybertron Scourge, Metroplex, and Menasor,... also Movie Skids (I'm just guessing on that one), and the list goes on... (for a little while :D )


I don't think he meant to say that. I think he meant to say this:
"In fact, why does a character who shares the same name with a character from a previous series have to have the same characterisation?"

In other words, he's asking why a character with an old name can't be a new character that bears hardly a resemblance to those he/she is named after.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Burn » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:38 pm

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
If you don't mind, i'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself.

The question was aimed at those folks who think the name should have the same character from series to series.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Sabrblade » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:05 pm

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Burn wrote:If you don't mind, i'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself.

The question was aimed at those folks who think the name should have the same character from series to series.
Fair enough.
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Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Norcinu » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:36 pm

Hmm, although I did grow up with Beast Wars, it was thanks to Armada that sealed my love for Transformers. At the time I thought it was the best thing but now looking back it was a little off, in my opinion of course. It's hard rewatching it and appreciating the show, characters seemed off, before Unicron was too repetitive, but of course Sabrblade's covered all of this.

But even though I was a fan of Armada, Energon was unbearable and so was Cybertron (do note I've only seen the dub of it).
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Marcdachamp » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:45 pm

Armada was the only one I liked, because I felt like they actually made an effort halfway through.

With Energon, I felt like a decent premise was ruined by awful gimmicks (combining sucked), boring storylines and a crummy follow-up.

It was the Beast Machines of the Unicron Trilogy.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Dead Metal » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:53 pm

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Armada I used to hate cos most of the toys sucked compared to Beast Wars and I hated the bad animation with WTF designs like Prime's truckmode and such.
Now looking back Armada wasn't that bad, Energon I just can't watch I didn't even make the first half of the first episode but the DW comic was awesome.
Cybertron I just dislike the keys and all the hyper weird ass altmodes, I'm still not certain what the hell Prime's sopposed to be.
And the stories, I mean seriously those were mostly retarded, I mean Prime drinking a mountain dry and burping? Are you **** kidding me? That's supposed to be mature, superior, realistic storytelling that beasts anything that was ever made before? #-o
At least Animated doesn't pretend to be mature.

the main reason I hate the UT cartoons is cos I thought we had 25 god damn years of Transformers brand evolution jet they fail at making a cartoon that is better than G1 just kinda the same? One that has perfect animation, storytelling and characterisation?
The only ones to even come close are BW/BM and their animation is ageing fast in our time and Animated and that has horrible animation.
I mean I like Anime but if any one says it's superior to western storytelling I just have to laugh and sue that person for trying to kill me with laughter.
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Blurrz wrote:10/10

Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby sylvia » Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:08 pm

Duke of Luns wrote:
sylvia wrote:Too many annoying kids in too important roles, plus Starscream's characterization was off in Armada and Energon.


I thought Starscream's characterization was perfect in Armada, because Armada Screamer isn't G1 Screamer. Why should everyone named Starscream be a backstabbing, egotystical power monger?

But Energon Starscream was very boring. Shame considering he's one of the best Energon figures.


Duke - I think it was disrespectful and went against nearly 25 years or continuity to write SS as very different from how he had been portrayed all along. :? What if, say, JJ Abrams tried that with Spock, Kirk, Scotty, etc in the new ST movie?
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Dead Metal » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:57 pm

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sylvia wrote:
Duke of Luns wrote:
sylvia wrote:Too many annoying kids in too important roles, plus Starscream's characterization was off in Armada and Energon.


I thought Starscream's characterization was perfect in Armada, because Armada Screamer isn't G1 Screamer. Why should everyone named Starscream be a backstabbing, egotystical power monger?

But Energon Starscream was very boring. Shame considering he's one of the best Energon figures.


Duke - I think it was disrespectful and went against nearly 25 years or continuity to write SS as very different from how he had been portrayed all along. :? What if, say, JJ Abrams tried that with Spock, Kirk, Scotty, etc in the new ST movie?

But he's not G1 Starscream, he's Armada Starscream something different and new.
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Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?

Blurrz wrote:10/10

Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Cthulhunicron » Thu May 07, 2009 2:36 pm

Guess I'm alone in thinking that Superlink was the best of the "trilogy." I'll take Kicker over Bud or Fred any day.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby GrimSqueaker » Thu May 07, 2009 4:43 pm

Cthulhunicron wrote:From reading these forums and the various Transformers wikis that have popped up, it seems most people really hate the "Unicron Trilogy" (especially Energon) while often overlooking the many flaws of G1.


First off to promote G1 it was the first-so they could kinda do anything they wanted to

Cthulhunicron wrote:I really don't understand this. So far, I've seen all of Armada and Energon, as well as part of Superlink and Galaxy Force. I've also seen all of G1. I will definitely acknowledge that the "trilogy" has its flaws, but no more than G1. I've heard people vehemently criticize the animation, but come on...it's light years beyond the animation of G1.


How long did it come after g1???? Compare both cartoons to their contemporaries and although g1 isnt amaster piece it is relatively a far better cartoon.

Cthulhunicron wrote:The music is way way better than in G1. The sound FX are not heavily (and obviously) dependent on Star Wars. The stories of Armada and Energon definitely drag at times, but at least there were storylines, and not just a stream of disconnected stand-alone episodes riddled with continuity errors.


Again 80's versus 00's

But i think the real nail in the trilogy coffin is Beast Wars, u said it urself;

Cthulhunicron wrote: Beast Wars............. was flat out awesome)


U cant follow that amazing show wit the piece of crap triology, its just not fair. G1 was the start, and will always be loved for that reason-the other stuff came after and all have to live up to what came before.
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Duke of Luns » Fri May 08, 2009 9:45 am

sylvia wrote:
Duke of Luns wrote:
sylvia wrote:Too many annoying kids in too important roles, plus Starscream's characterization was off in Armada and Energon.


I thought Starscream's characterization was perfect in Armada, because Armada Screamer isn't G1 Screamer. Why should everyone named Starscream be a backstabbing, egotystical power monger?

But Energon Starscream was very boring. Shame considering he's one of the best Energon figures.


Duke - I think it was disrespectful and went against nearly 25 years or continuity to write SS as very different from how he had been portrayed all along. :? What if, say, JJ Abrams tried that with Spock, Kirk, Scotty, etc in the new ST movie?


Though I haven't seen the new Trek(probably won't until it comes to DVD, never been big on Trek), that is different. From my understanding, it's mainly meant to be an origin story set in the same Universe.

However, Armada is most certainly not G1. Different Universe, different perspective. They aren't the same character.

Just curious, do you feel Inferno was disrespected in Beast Wars? A pyromanic bad guy is about as far away from a heoric firetruck as you can get. That is set in the same Universe.

Point is, the only thing they share is the same name. Just like Perceptor, Cyclonus, Thrust, Shockwave(Japanese name for Tidal Wave), Smokescreen, Hoist, Scavenger, etc. are all major characters in Armada, but have few if any similarities to their G1 counterparts. Let's not even go into Energon's name-a-rama....

So basically, enjoy him for what it is :PEACE: .
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Re: Why all the 'Unicron Trilogy' hate?

Postby Sabrblade » Fri May 08, 2009 10:04 am

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Besides, Armada Starscream wasn't the first time a character named "Starscream" was very different from G1 Starscream. The Starscream form BWII was vastly different from his G1 namesake. He was goofy, clumsy, and was neither the sub-commander nor the ursurper of the team (that was Megastorm's role). not to mention that, like Duke just said about BW Inferno, BWII Screamer is also from the same universe as G1 Screamer.

Just because two bots share a name doesn't mean they have the act exactly like each other.
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