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Rodimus Prime wrote:

Ms. Trebuchette wrote:Well, my friend, you have been fighting a losing battle against canon since November 12, 1985.
But I appreciate your tenacity?

And I don't appreciate your condescension. Just because you don't agree with others' view, you shouldn't simply dismiss them like they don't matter, especially when they make good points. You did the same thing to Burn.

No condensation was intended. If others take me contradicting their views with either facts and/or my opinions as anything other than healthy debating, I'm not exactly sure what to do about that.

A good chunk of this type of discussion could be assuaged by establishing, from the very beginning of what comes next, the demographics and identities (gendered or genderless) of the characters.

Scifi and fantasy are not extraneous to finding appropriate solutions for dealing with either situation; look at the work done by Leckie, Chambers, Lee, Jemisin, LeGuin among others. That said, with the EIC still being Barber, and with him being responsible for the development of a really well laid out trans* narrative with Arcee (as well as both hetero- and homosexual relationships across the board, and that's before considering MTMTE/LL), I can't see this particular facet of the characterisation disappearing any time soon. And personally, I welcome it!


On the other hand, yes, male is a gender (which yes, is something not part of sexuality or sex, and even those are not set by outdated biological categorisations either), and even accepting - in a descriptive manner, not happily doing so - that 'he/him' is a default for English as well as many other languages across the world, does not make it less so. Again, see how Leckie (after LeGuin) develops the concept further in her books for a scifi perspective.

If anyone is interested, we have a thread dedicated to the discussion of same sex relationships in TF comics.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=105231

If you want to move it over there, you can then discuss same sex relationships, genders etc and we can let this topic get back on track.

Va'al wrote:A good chunk of this type of discussion could be assuaged by establishing, from the very beginning of what comes next, the demographics and identities (gendered or genderless) of the characters.

I'll take it from this point and do as Burn nudges, going back on track.

Having a default foundation (for any sort of status quo) might be an interesting way of avoiding misconceptions and misunderstandings about the situation, especially for the least knowledgeable in the topics - but!



In terms of story proper, rather than characters, you prefer seeing something in medias res - starting maybe exactly slap bang in the middle of a battle, or a scene of any kind - or a gradual build/zoom/reveal of the stage, the players, and the situation of an eventual new narrative?

For the start, I'm more than happy with it beginning mid battle. I think what leads up to the war starting is fit for either mini series here and there, and flashback story arcs. Or they could begin before the war and by the end of the first issue, launch right into it.

Ms. Trebuchette wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Ms. Trebuchette wrote:Well, my friend, you have been fighting a losing battle against canon since November 12, 1985.
But I appreciate your tenacity?

And I don't appreciate your condescension. Just because you don't agree with others' view, you shouldn't simply dismiss them like they don't matter, especially when they make good points. You did the same thing to Burn.

No condensation was intended. If others take me contradicting their views with either facts and/or my opinions as anything other than healthy debating, I'm not exactly sure what to do about that.

The main point of my first post was how I wanted a new Shockwave to be handled. My comment on the "homosexual" label of some transformers was not what I was really looking to discuss, so I'm very sorry things went this way.

Getting back on track, I would like to see the Decepticons getting as much characterization as they do in the current IDWverse. None of the Bayformers "I'm evil just because" bullsh*t.

At this point we've had G1 (or G1 inspired) TF media for almost 20 years in one form or the other, and honestly I would love to see a NEW take on Beast Wars saga or a new take on the Unicron Trilogy and I'm not just talking about continuations or just a rehash of the cartoon shows, I'm talking brand new takes on those continuities now that would be cool, than yet another rehash of G1.

There is an old saying: "I can't miss you if you don't go away." So maybe Hasbro should put the G1 away for a few years (maybe 2-4 years) and let the demand for new G1 and/or G1 inspired media build again and then unleash it again.

The Lonely Cracker wrote:Getting back on track, I would like to see the Decepticons getting as much characterization as they do in the current IDWverse. None of the Bayformers "I'm evil just because" bullsh*t.

Actually I would love to see just an evil for the sake of being evil version of Megatron again who was often more fun to read and watch than the morally compromised anti-hero version of Megatron which become tiresome and boring after a while.

Actually I miss villains who were just evil for the sake of being evil than being some morally complex or compromised anti-hero, which I have see it a MILLION times in every form of media and I'm getting sick of it.

snavej wrote:

Lothar Hex wrote:

Moonshot wrote:
Honest question here, but isn't a trans lesbian just a cross-dressing straight guy?

JESUS.

Jesus might have been a cross-dressing straight lesbian guy: you never know!

Mods, I realize we're trying to get back on track, but are we really going to let comments like this slide? This isn't respectful at all. If we wish to facilitate civil discussion, we should not allow disparagement of anyone's faith or anything of the sort.

Silverwing wrote:

snavej wrote:

Lothar Hex wrote:

Moonshot wrote:
Honest question here, but isn't a trans lesbian just a cross-dressing straight guy?

JESUS.

Jesus might have been a cross-dressing straight lesbian guy: you never know!

Mods, I realize we're trying to get back on track, but are we really going to let comments like this slide? This isn't respectful at all. If we wish to facilitate civil discussion, we should not allow disparagement of anyone's faith or anything of the sort.

Do not presume that Forum Staff have taken no action.

Va'al wrote:In terms of story proper, rather than characters, you prefer seeing something in medias res - starting maybe exactly slap bang in the middle of a battle, or a scene of any kind - or a gradual build/zoom/reveal of the stage, the players, and the situation of an eventual new narrative?

Oooh. In terms of the small-scale, individual issue/arc level I'm a very big of the whole in media res approach (I adore a good cold open), but on the larger scale... this made me realise we'll probably be going back to the typical "strong nice autobots versus big nasty deceptions, back and forth, for ever" narrative.
Like it or hate it, the continual moral greyness of post-war Cybertronian civilisation has been possibly the most interesting aspect of the whole idw run. You can enjoy or despise autobot megs and imperialist prime, but you can't deny they've been pretty interesting takes and spawned a lot of discussion over these past couple years. (Whilst perhaps being more appropriate to real-world politics than a g1-toon style plot would be...)
Whilst there are definitely stories to be told in the typical Great War setting, I do wonder whether they'll lend themselves to the same level of depth, nuance, and originality- I sometimes feel like the war ends up as a kind of reverse-elephant in the room, forcing everything to be about because well, why would we spend time on a holographic dream planet created by a barman who's not especially important (in the grand scheme of things, swerve's important in my heart ), we have a massive catastrophic war to fight.

I dunno, hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised!

Ms. Trebuchette wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Ms. Trebuchette wrote:Well, my friend, you have been fighting a losing battle against canon since November 12, 1985.
But I appreciate your tenacity?

And I don't appreciate your condescension. Just because you don't agree with others' view, you shouldn't simply dismiss them like they don't matter, especially when they make good points. You did the same thing to Burn.

No condensation was intended. If others take me contradicting their views with either facts and/or my opinions as anything other than healthy debating, I'm not exactly sure what to do about that.

Perhaps try wording your arguments differently? It was really that last sentence that showed your tone. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how it reads.

Cyberstrike wrote:At this point we've had G1 (or G1 inspired) TF media for almost 20 years in one form or the other, and honestly I would love to see a NEW take on Beast Wars saga or a new take on the Unicron Trilogy and I'm not just talking about continuations or just a rehash of the cartoon shows, I'm talking brand new takes on those continuities now that would be cool, than yet another rehash of G1.

There is an old saying: "I can't miss you if you don't go away." So maybe Hasbro should put the G1 away for a few years (maybe 2-4 years) and let the demand for new G1 and/or G1 inspired media build again and then unleash it again.

The Lonely Cracker wrote:Getting back on track, I would like to see the Decepticons getting as much characterization as they do in the current IDWverse. None of the Bayformers "I'm evil just because" bullsh*t.

Actually I would love to see just an evil for the sake of being evil version of Megatron again who was often more fun to read and watch than the morally compromised anti-hero version of Megatron which become tiresome and boring after a while.

Actually I miss villains who were just evil for the sake of being evil than being some morally complex or compromised anti-hero, which I have see it a MILLION times in every form of media and I'm getting sick of it.

I respectfully disagree in the case of villains being evil, especially megatron. In IDW, you could say there was a point where he was evil for the sake of evil but even he addresses it. Characters that are evil for the sake of evil are traditionally very flat characters, you take away the evil and what are you left with? You can allow some psychopathic villains here and there but they do work best on their own. Sort of how Overlord was dealt with in IDW. Everyone else is better off being layered, it's far more interesting that way.

Megatron's biggest problem is he's only quasi-evil.

Hear me out ... IDW gave him purpose, he was oppressed, he hated the system, so he rose up, in doing so it changed him. He became a leader, but through it all he was fighting for his cause. Others who joined his cause did so because they just liked to kill things, cause havoc, or just had aggressive tendencies. Plus, there were others that were just more "evil".

G1 Cartoon Megatron was evil because he just wanted to rule. So yes, as our newly minted News Crew member brought up, that's kinda flat. His troops were cookie cutter troops.

So as others have suggested, don't have Optimus Prime and Megatron be the major characters. Build it around lesser known characters.

And here's the kicker. Optimus Prime is missing, he and a number of his circle set out on a secret mission and haven't been heard from.

I know what you're thinking, Megatron and his circle caught up with them and they all crash landed on Earth.

No.

Megatron is rarely seen. He's bordering on mythological, stories of how brutal he is are told on a regular basis.

Oh and the Decepticons have already taken control of the majority of Cybertron.

Make it dark, make it gritty, tell the tales of camaraderie, of sacrifice, of fear, you can throw in closer relationships to help expand on the previous aspects, do it with side books, one-shots, minis, all driving the major book as the Autobots struggle to survive.

I can go with approach and it's also something that I've discussed with another couple of users. Doing something like that will allow lesser known characters or even new ones to take centre stage. I mean even prime and Co were new once upon a time.

Burn wrote:Megatron's biggest problem is he's only quasi-evil.

There's a statement I never thought I'd read.

So as others have suggested, don't have Optimus Prime and Megatron be the major characters. Build it around lesser known characters.

And here's the kicker. Optimus Prime is missing, he and a number of his circle set out on a secret mission and haven't been heard from.

I like that idea, but I think the problem is that as long as they are in the story, they will be distracting from the main characters. I think if there will be a story with others as the central focus, Prime and Megatron shouldn't even be mentioned, because then the expectation their eventual return will overshadow the actual story.

Think DW's 2nd War Within miniseries did it well, despite my above statement.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Burn wrote:So as others have suggested, don't have Optimus Prime and Megatron be the major characters. Build it around lesser known characters.

And here's the kicker. Optimus Prime is missing, he and a number of his circle set out on a secret mission and haven't been heard from.

I like that idea, but I think the problem is that as long as they are in the story, they will be distracting from the main characters. I think if there will be a story with others as the central focus, Prime and Megatron shouldn't even be mentioned, because then the expectation their eventual return will overshadow the actual story.

How about we went the other way? Rather than diminishing them, deliberately elevate the leaders to such a status that they're removed from the picture. If we're going the route of war stories, most stories (factual and otherwise) about earth wars aren't about the leaders- nobody was expecting Chamberlain or Churchill to show up on the beaches in Saving Private Ryan. By having them so far removed from the stories being told, we could get chance for interesting stories about niche parts of the two sides (a la LSOTW), and even delve into some of the morality discussions with the idea of OP and Megs as these two armchair generals...

While that could work, it would generate a lot of irate comments about "how they would never just sit out a battle". All better to just remove them somehow. Lose prime in an accident and have megs around somewhere but also lead in a possibility that megs has been assainated...and replaced with Megaplex

ArmadaPrime wrote:

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Burn wrote:So as others have suggested, don't have Optimus Prime and Megatron be the major characters. Build it around lesser known characters.

And here's the kicker. Optimus Prime is missing, he and a number of his circle set out on a secret mission and haven't been heard from.

I like that idea, but I think the problem is that as long as they are in the story, they will be distracting from the main characters. I think if there will be a story with others as the central focus, Prime and Megatron shouldn't even be mentioned, because then the expectation their eventual return will overshadow the actual story.

How about we went the other way? Rather than diminishing them, deliberately elevate the leaders to such a status that they're removed from the picture. If we're going the route of war stories, most stories (factual and otherwise) about earth wars aren't about the leaders- nobody was expecting Chamberlain or Churchill to show up on the beaches in Saving Private Ryan. By having them so far removed from the stories being told, we could get chance for interesting stories about niche parts of the two sides (a la LSOTW), and even delve into some of the morality discussions with the idea of OP and Megs as these two armchair generals...

That's what I was getting at. Thought I'd gotten that across, guess not, oh well, you folks got the point mostly!

ZeroWolf wrote:While that could work, it would generate a lot of irate comments about "how they would never just sit out a battle".

Exactly. Can you imagine Prime just sitting in a chair while Autobots are getting killed on a battlefield? Or Megatron doing the same while he could be a part of those killings?

Not the characters as we know them now. But maybe in the new universe that's how they could be? It would be hard to watch/read both of them being so removed from actual battle. Does that make them cowards?

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:While that could work, it would generate a lot of irate comments about "how they would never just sit out a battle".

Exactly. Can you imagine Prime just sitting in a chair while Autobots are getting killed on a battlefield? Or Megatron doing the same while he could be a part of those killings?

Not the characters as we know them now. But maybe in the new universe that's how they could be? It would be hard to watch/read both of them being so removed from actual battle. Does that make them cowards?

Hmm well if Prime got so heavy damaged he may become more of a battle operator so he's the one giving orders but unable to fight. Same with megs except in his case it could be akin to beast machines, they managed to come up with a reason then as to why megs never personally fought.

I'm not against the idea, I mean Im fine with them being absent completely! I mean have megs be a title that's passed down from decepticon leader or have him dead but someone takes his name which leads to the bw version of megs coming into the spotlight.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:While that could work, it would generate a lot of irate comments about "how they would never just sit out a battle".

Exactly. Can you imagine Prime just sitting in a chair while Autobots are getting killed on a battlefield? Or Megatron doing the same while he could be a part of those killings?

That's why Prime and his circle are missing and with the majority of Cybertron conquered, Megatron doesn't need to involve himself in petty squabbles.

Could also add to the mystery that he's badly damaged, have him sitting on a throne with the bulk of him hidden to hide damage.

There was a concept mentioned in the current idw run that I'm blanking on the name of but could totally fit into this idea... basically prime and Megatron both spent years and years enclosed in a sort of immersive command centre, dictating the war from afar and observing every part of it at once. That also helps set up the idea that it's not just Optimus and bumblebee et al fighting Megatron and starscream et al forever, but actually a galaxy-spanning fight with hundreds of thousands of people involved, most of whom we've never even heard of... being able to break away from the headline cast, yknow? It's what allowed groups like the wreckers and the scavengers to be so much more interesting

Personally, I would love to read stories about Fortress Maximus and Scorponok from the G1 comics before they joined the main cast and became headmasters. They already had their own ships and crews. Introduce them all in the 1st issue like it was done with the G1 cast and the IDW cast, and then let the action begin. IIRC, they each had a smaller crew than both Prime and Megatron, as well as the cast of MTMTE or RID, so the opportunity for character development is vast. As long as they get a good writer to write it.

Burn wrote:Megatron's biggest problem is he's only quasi-evil.

Hear me out ... IDW gave him purpose, he was oppressed, he hated the system, so he rose up, in doing so it changed him. He became a leader, but through it all he was fighting for his cause. Others who joined his cause did so because they just liked to kill things, cause havoc, or just had aggressive tendencies. Plus, there were others that were just more "evil".

G1 Cartoon Megatron was evil because he just wanted to rule. So yes, as our newly minted News Crew member brought up, that's kinda flat. His troops were cookie cutter troops.

The first part of your post is something I really latched onto in the comics. I loved the Autocracy story and I really had no idea this is how it went down. I got glimpses here and there as I had seen and read things regarding how the war started and how the differing factions came into being, but that story alone gave me so much more insight and it really made Megatron seem more three dimensional as a character for me but also allowed me to see Prime from a different point of view. I didn't like Prime in that story at all. He seemed like a tool of a corrupt system(well, he actually was).

To your second portion I quoted, the way he was in the cartoons was cool but it was cool as a cartoon concept. Not something my adult brain craves.

This is exactly why I liked IDW and the way they presented the material. It may not be for everyone, but it made the characters feel real. Beyond cartoonish.