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News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:14 am

Counterpunch wrote:Marvel Comics: 1984-1991
-80 Issues plus the additions of Marvel UK and Regeneration One

Sunbow Cartoon: 1984-1987
-98 Episodes plus TFtM

Japanese G1 (Headmasters through Zone): 1987-1989
-130 Episodes plus various TV Magazine entries

IDW Transformers: 2005-2018
-400+ issues and counting

This particular extension of storytelling and world building has been the longest lasting, best coordinated, and most fan-oriented Transformers canon we have ever had. It is second only to the G1 cartoon in level of impact (or perhaps Marvel UK for those who grew up with it).

There have been ups and downs. There have been points where even the hardest of the fanbase has questioned the stories or decisions made. But let's not pretend that any of those moments or points are any worse or any less noticeable than the myriad of faults in the other branches of story.

To anyone quibbling about politics, gender or otherwise...your arguments mostly sound utterly petty in the face of this run's scope and presence. What I hear from many of those making these kinds of arguments is that the material is just too much for your consideration and a bowl of cereal and a cartoon from 1984 would better suit your tastes. Have at it.

To focus merely on that ignores 10+ years of incredible world building, character development, and thoughtful movement of the franchise. From the early days where we get a look at how Transformers infiltrate a world, Spotlight issues directly building up characters, Cybertronian society and history, the implications of a post-war Cybertron, the rationale for Megatron's war, and imperfect Optimus...to ignore all that for a narrow complaint, justified or not, means to me one of two things:

1. You just chimed in to make a pre-determined argument about something mostly unrelated to the books.
2. You never actually read the books and just jumped in to make a point related to #1.

There's plenty to dislike over the run. There have been times when I've been confused, bored, or just put off with the direction. But that happens over a thirteen year run. Ultimately, the whole scope of the continuity is on a positive bend and there is far more favorable to say about it than not.

I want to be clear about something as I close. If you didn't like the run just because it didn't work for you. That's fine. I take no issue with that because personal preference matters in how we engage fiction.

If your dislike of the run stems from some narrow, isolated viewpoint related to "politics" as your coding of the issue; your opinion is scrub tier and in the game of discussing content, isn't even one of the pieces that made it to the board.

Very well said :-)

And O.Supreme, thank you for your reply as well, and for laying out your own reasonings. I don't agree with them as DW was more of something I never cared for in the first place, being the G1 toon. However, I understand that people see things differently for different reasons :-)

News Credits: 638 · by **ScottyP** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:14 am

Skritz wrote: Not that you CAN'T add depth, just that some writers are better at it than others. The 'political mouthpiece' moments seemed less like some over arching evil new world order agenda and more a desperate writer trying to figure wtf he or she had to do to try to keep the franchise and ongoing comics 'relevant' and have something to do for them. It was a symptom of problems, not the source.

The franchise and the comics are fatigued.

Are you talking about James Roberts writing Megatron? If so, it sounds like you only consumed bits and pieces of something that initially looked like a cheap marketing play that was turned into a fantastic piece of character work over ~30 issues that challenged readers in meaningful ways to think about the nature of change, forgiveness, and reconciliation. If you only caught glimpses, I can see some of it looking preachy, but in the context of the long form narrative those elements serve to reinforce what Megatron initially thought and how it fueled a movement that became more sinister over time while also tempting the reader into feeling empathy towards a Transformer responsible for genocide. Seeing how Megatron allowed himself to be corrupted by a society trying to keep a status quo that didn't serve the interests of him and those like him is damn good reading, and the cautionary tone to not overly sympathize with his choices provided some wisdom that caught me off guard.

If not, genuinely curious what you specifically meant to refer to here, mostly so I can disagree with it but hey, maybe I wouldn't. I'll already look pretty dumb having typed all this so if you're worried some internet stranger is jumping on your case, there is that

News Credits: 6188 · by **Va'al** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:20 am

Serving a little here, but a thought I had finally coalesced into something coherent last night, and I needed to write it down.

Plenty of people have been saying this in the past years too, but what I'd also really like to see in a new fictional universe is something similar to the initial Spotlights that the -ation era brought in - not only focusing on new characters, and giving them a personal story that can then be woven into the wider narrative, but also to ..well, spotlight new creative teams. And I mean NEW creative teams.

I want to see the fan artists who made variant covers get to do some interior work, but I also want to see entirely new writers pitch a story and get to write it themselves, pairing up with artists and colours under editorial guidance from IDW (be it Barber or Mariotte, and Long on production, for example). Think of the Mosaics project, think of the Seeds of Deception et al. on deviantArt (that we keep seeing in the creative round-ups).

You could call it Siege: War Stories, if the new narratives have to do with War for Cybertron. Get fans - all fans - to pitch the plots, the team, the one character story, have OCs show up alongside the core cast from Siege, have stories that could be in the background (NAILs, grunts, Badgeless, whoever) take front and centre for one issue, and then be forgotten if needed, but give them and the fandom a chance to actually suggest what we could want to see. It's less feasible the more I get excited about it, but holy shirt it would be amazing and a way to get really new, fresh material show up from the already extremely prolific creative side of the fandom.

by **Zephyr101** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:19 am

I started reading this with issue 0 of Infiltration when I was 18.
I'm now 31. I love so much about the IDW Universe, especially everything that James Roberts, John Barber, Nick Roche and Mairghread Scott.

I'm one of the people that absolutely loved all the politics, relationship drama, gender theory, gut-wrenching plot lines and character analyses we've seen in Phase Two intertwined into some great scifi action stories about giant transforming robots. I'm sad to see it end but also glad it's finishing on a high.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:35 am

Va'al wrote:You could call it Siege: War Stories, if the new narratives have to do with War for Cybertron. Get fans - all fans - to pitch the plots, the team, the one character story, have OCs show up alongside the core cast from Siege, have stories that could be in the background (NAILs, grunts, Badgeless, whoever) take front and centre for one issue, and then be forgotten if needed, but give them and the fandom a chance to actually suggest what we could want to see. It's less feasible the more I get excited about it, but holy shirt it would be amazing and a way to get really new, fresh material show up from the already extremely prolific creative side of the fandom.

See, this would work!

There's characters out there that have only appeared in a handful of panels. Predators, Turbomasters, Obliterators, Cyberjets, Axelerators ... the list goes on! All these little teams that could be highlighted. It's something I've wanted to see for years.

News Credits: 6188 · by **Va'al** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:46 am

Burn wrote:
Va'al wrote:You could call it Siege: War Stories, if the new narratives have to do with War for Cybertron. Get fans - all fans - to pitch the plots, the team, the one character story, have OCs show up alongside the core cast from Siege, have stories that could be in the background (NAILs, grunts, Badgeless, whoever) take front and centre for one issue, and then be forgotten if needed, but give them and the fandom a chance to actually suggest what we could want to see. It's less feasible the more I get excited about it, but holy shirt it would be amazing and a way to get really new, fresh material show up from the already extremely prolific creative side of the fandom.

See, this would work!

There's characters out there that have only appeared in a handful of panels. Predators, Turbomasters, Obliterators, Cyberjets, Axelerators ... the list goes on! All these little teams that could be highlighted. It's something I've wanted to see for years.

And you could work it in with the Micro and Battle Masters for more Brand Synergy if you wanted to, or use it as a gauging platform for redecos or remolds or even exclusives. You want to make comics that sell the toys? Give us characters we really connect with, and then release the actual toy!

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:40 am

I like that idea...I like it a lot but would it be something that IDW/Hasbro would want to commit to.

News Credits: 6188 · by **Va'al** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:04 am

ZeroWolf wrote:I like that idea...I like it a lot but would it be something that IDW/Hasbro would want to commit to.

If the Hasbro-IDW relationship remains the same as it has been so far, we might be able to get something like this, but given their increased control over media properties (see movies, shows) this may not be able to put in effect.

Could still run as a parallel to a main series though, like the Spotlights!

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:17 am

Just going to throw this out there, even though with new beginnings I expect this won't change.

Previews. They **** piss me off. Why? Because of how they time things.

Latest issue comes out, seems within a few hours a preview is out for a future issue.

Conversation on the forums go from talking about the latest issue for a few hours, before suddenly shifting focus to the preview.

It's one of a couple of reasons why I don't bother getting into the comics discussion.

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:19 am

See that why I was wondering if hasbro were going to make a move and buy IDW outright as it's own in house publishing division. Guess I was wrong on that front :lol:

I've long advocated a release like that though and I think, while quality may be like a see-saw. It would be a good thing in the long run.

News Credits: 6188 · by **Va'al** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:15 am

Burn wrote:Just going to throw this out there, even though with new beginnings I expect this won't change.

Previews. They **** piss me off. Why? Because of how they time things.

Latest issue comes out, seems within a few hours a preview is out for a future issue.

Conversation on the forums go from talking about the latest issue for a few hours, before suddenly shifting focus to the preview.

It's one of a couple of reasons why I don't bother getting into the comics discussion.

That's another bad effect of the direct market model, unfortunately. And yeah.

News Credits: 638 · by **ScottyP** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:11 am

Va'al wrote:
Burn wrote:Just going to throw this out there, even though with new beginnings I expect this won't change.

Previews. They **** piss me off. Why? Because of how they time things.

Latest issue comes out, seems within a few hours a preview is out for a future issue.

Conversation on the forums go from talking about the latest issue for a few hours, before suddenly shifting focus to the preview.

It's one of a couple of reasons why I don't bother getting into the comics discussion.

That's another bad effect of the direct market model, unfortunately. And yeah.

Another thing that not having megathreads would fix :DANCE:

by **Ms. Trebuchette** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:06 pm

ScottyP wrote:I'm not happy it's ending.

Mostly-speculation-tinged-with-hints-of-knowledge: this was the lazy way out. It seems to me the creative teams are ready to move on, and as a professional in financial technology I can respect that immensely. Working on the same project or software for years at a time can get plain boring. However, I don't see why there's a need to mark it as such a definitive "The End" - we know how that tends to go over the long haul anyways. Add to that some of the parallel timelines/realities explored in the actual books and it just seems haphazard to say "over, finished!"

I know the Hasbroverse didn't work out. Hasbro is as much to blame for that as IDW, if not moreso for rushing the implementation anywhere from 6 months to a year ahead of schedule. That said, you can undo it in a variety of ways: time travel, universe hopping, some new villain wipes out Hasbro properties, they were Cybertronian all along, they were Unicron heralds all along, hell have Ian Noble and Arcee's time displaced love child create a paradox that only Brainstorm's snark can fix through a metabomb, but you have to have Perceptor take him out to a nice dinner first. Call it Dinnerquest: The Series, and boom, now you can relaunch into Beast Wars and cash in on 90s nostalgia.

My point is not that Dinnerquest is possible, or even remotely a good idea, or even something I should have written down, but that it seems to me to be way more fun to leave it open, press stop, and go about whatever new thing as its own thing. I'm sure that will give a few unwelcome flashbacks to All Hail Megatron, but if the creative trust wanted to say goodbye and mean it they can still do so without closing their toy box, locking it, and throwing away the key.

tl;dr Brainstorm's briefcase made all the other continuities anyway so... it never ends!

Also Botanica is the harbinger of the end of continuities.

I agree with you re: lamenting the end, Scotty BECAUSE I also agree with Va'al: I.e. I am happy the current run is coming to an end because of the opportunity to showcase new talent, or give talent that's only recently been given the spotlight (Sara, Jack, & Kei, for example) more of a chance to shine/take center-stage the way that Nick, Andrew, and Alex have had.

I also, disagree that the large continuity has become a hindrance because I feel like the way in which John and James have used the continuity that preceded them to be the true hallmark of what makes the past 6 years a renaissance in terms of TF fiction. When all is said and done, IDW 1.0 will be a complete 400+ issue epic that takes care to wrap up every dangling plot thread by the end of it and circle back on itself. I think this is why it's only logical that Shockwave ends up being SO important at the end. Because he was at the beginning.

Also, FINALLY, I don't know how to respond to all the comments here crying over the inclusion of politics/SJWs/"gender dysphoria"/LGBTQ+ persons/narratives. So let's start with the most important thing: I AM A TRANS LESBIAN. So yeah, the BEST PART of IDW has been FINALLY seeing characters with whom I personally identify with in the Transformers I have loved since I watched G1 on TV as a kid in the 1980s. I know HUNDREDS of other women and LGBTQ+ persons in this fandom too both on Twitter and Tumblr. We buy toys. We go to conventions. We buy comics. We deserve representation too. My only wish in regards to the new IDW continuity (whatever/whenever that will be) is that we see MORE diverse stories and representation. I was worried when it was announced that the current series were ending, but I *KNOW* that with John as EiC, we will continue to see creators and stories at IDW that include and showcase under-represented narratives.

Because (everyone together now): REPRESENTATION MATTERS. FULL STOP.

The future of Transformers is Trans Lesbian Wives.

Deal with it!

News Credits: 419 · by **Bronzewolf** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:54 pm

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:16 pm

Bravo Ms. Trebuchette, I think you've took the thread. I applaud your resolve to bravely stand up and say that. We could always do with more people like you in general.

by **Ms. Trebuchette** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:26 pm

News Credits: 125 · by **Counterpunch** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:47 pm

Keep it civil please. Question and answer sensitive topics respectfully.

Also, fwiw...there is a lot to talk about in the IDW run beyond this one issue that keeps getting dragged back up (important and relevant though it is).

When I look back over the whole run, I think fondly on the following themes:

+Megatron's introspective arc

+The representation of conflict with consequences, ala Last Stand

+How artfully done Chaos Theory was in seeding future plot elements

+The expansive view of Cybertron society, including adequately addressing issues of gender

What I question the narrative choices of:

-How combiners are treated and the consistency of their tech

-How necessary the AHM event was in it's time break and eventual retcon work

-The sloppy implementation of the shared Hasbro Universe and what worked to speed up and muddle a possibly strong premise

-The way in which events like Chaos and Titans Return over took other plot lines.

I always wonder when hearing people talk about the IDW run if they've read through or have only spectated the larger stories...

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:54 pm

The hasbro Universe integration is indeed a good topic as it was so sloppily done. Don't get me wrong, backwards engineering cybertronian tech to make mask? Clever idea. Everything else though was just done so haphazardly. If this reboot is to be part of a larger hasbroverse again then do it organically this time. Rom worked quite well with the tf franchise, visionaries didn't. Joe could certainly have been handled better.

by **Ms. Trebuchette** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:00 pm

Micronauts, Rom, and MASK were all handled really well. I also suspect there were plans to introduce the IDW Jem series into the larger Hasbroverse (if you've read it, there was a LOT of room for an organic TF v. Jem story w/r/t the origin of Synergy tech).

I think the biggest sticking point was GI Joe. It's hard to do such a big refocus for that series without losing readers (especially if they weren't invested in the IDW Transformers). I personally loved the post -Revolution IDW Joe series (but I never read them before Revolution).

A big, expanded crossover like the Hasbroverse needs to be baked in from the start, otherwise you risk putting primary narratives by the wayside.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:13 pm

Not everyone opposed to the inclusion of different genders and orientation are bigots. A lot of people are opposed because of how it was executed and felt like nothing more than a "this is what's big in the news at the moment so lets just throw it in".

It's important people remember that when judging those whose opinions differ to yours. >:oP

by **Ms. Trebuchette** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:20 pm

Burn wrote:Not everyone opposed to the inclusion of different genders and orientation are bigots. A lot of people are opposed because of how it was executed and felt like nothing more than a "this is what's big in the news at the moment so lets just throw it in".

It's important people remember that when judging those whose opinions differ to yours.

Okay, but hear me out here, there a LOT of women and LGBTQ+ persons saying that they *liked* the way that IDW handled their inclusion because they felt represented and they had characters they identified with.

Case in point, I've *ALWAYS* strongly identified with Arcee as a trans woman. Part of that took John (and Nick, to a lesser extent) showing her as a more three dimensional character, but even Spotlight: Arcee has an element to it that is a VERY AUTHENTIC trans narrative.

I don't want to shout the "b" word at everyone who disagrees with me, but it doesn't strike you as odd that most of the complaints about these narratives AREN'T COMING FROM women or LGBTQ+ folk since John, James, and Mairghread took over?

Food for thought. >:oP

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:28 pm

Okay, going back to something else that Counterpunch brought up: Combiners, will they ever be done right? So far I haven't found one medium that does them right, or at least stayed consistent.
Surely there must be something that can be done with them that doesn't render them unstoppable till the plot says otherwise.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:39 pm

Ms. Trebuchette wrote:Okay, but hear me out here, there a LOT of women and LGBTQ+ persons saying that they *liked* the way that IDW handled their inclusion because they felt represented and they had characters they identified with.

And has anyone said otherwise? You're emphasising a point that no one seems to be disputing.

Ms. Trebuchette wrote:I don't want to shout the "b" word at everyone who disagrees with me, but it doesn't strike you as odd that most of the complaints about these narratives AREN'T COMING FROM women or LGBTQ+ folk since John, James, and Mairghread took over?

Doesn't strike me odd at all. IDW set out to write stories to include those groups. They clearly achieved that.

I have NEVER disputed that, and in fact, a LOT of people wouldn't dispute it. So again, you seem to be emphasising a point that the majority agree with.

My personal "grievance" with all the socio-political/inclusive stuff is the timing, as I said, I felt it was done because that was the "flavour of the moment".

But here's another reason. I read comic books, I watch TV shows and movies as an escape from reality.

The fight for marriage equality went on in Australia for years. The Government could easily have changed the law but they dragged their feet, so for years I had to listen to "friends" sprout their bigotry.

I just wanted it legalised. To me there was no debate.

But for years while it dragged on, it kept getting pushed to the top of the news cycle.

Then the Government decided to hold a plebiscite. $150million AUD would be spent on plebiscite that would 1 - Be voluntary and 2 - the Government didn't even need to abide by it if it was an overwhelming "Yes".

Which ignited the flames even more and the bigots got louder, the supporters got louder, and I just wanted marriage equality to be legalised, but had to endure all the arguments.

So I try to escape to the comics ... and it's there too. This spills over to the forums. Suddenly my escape from reality has had reality seep in.

It made the comics hard for me to enjoy.

So you see, some people aren't bigots. They just want to escape from reality for a little bit.

Perhaps if I hadn't had to sit through years of loud noisy bigots fearful that marriage equality would cause cows to stop producing milk then I might have been able to enjoy the comics more, I dunno.

by **Robotrik1** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:45 pm

> Sure, there have been pitfalls along the way, mostly down to the strained relationship between licensor and licensee, and how that affected the creators in their storytelling. But they have never entirely destroyed the Transformers story that was being told.

"never entirely destroyed" eh ?
Let me guess, that's the bright side ?
Yeah , we've had a few bright spots .
The first Wreckers TP .
James Robert's MTMTE run until he was ... kidnapped , errr , I mean brought along to bail out Barber's not so great RiD in the first crossover event in Dark Cybertron . After that ... , ups and downs .

> Kei Zama was extremely popular on Tumblr

Warning bells ...

> Nick Roche spoke about 'a groove that was for everyone reading – and if that’s not for me, that’s fine' - starting with the inclusivity, diversity, and representation

Aaaand when the SJW crap starts , I'm done reading . :BOOM:

News Credits: 1350 · by **ZeroWolf** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:50 pm

Burn wrote:
Ms. Trebuchette wrote:Okay, but hear me out here, there a LOT of women and LGBTQ+ persons saying that they *liked* the way that IDW handled their inclusion because they felt represented and they had characters they identified with.

And has anyone said otherwise? You're emphasising a point that no one seems to be disputing.

Ms. Trebuchette wrote:I don't want to shout the "b" word at everyone who disagrees with me, but it doesn't strike you as odd that most of the complaints about these narratives AREN'T COMING FROM women or LGBTQ+ folk since John, James, and Mairghread took over?

Doesn't strike me odd at all. IDW set out to write stories to include those groups. They clearly achieved that.

I have NEVER disputed that, and in fact, a LOT of people wouldn't dispute it. So again, you seem to be emphasising a point that the majority agree with.

My personal "grievance" with all the socio-political/inclusive stuff is the timing, as I said, I felt it was done because that was the "flavour of the moment".

But here's another reason. I read comic books, I watch TV shows and movies as an escape from reality.

The fight for marriage equality went on in Australia for years. The Government could easily have changed the law but they dragged their feet, so for years I had to listen to "friends" sprout their bigotry.

I just wanted it legalised. To me there was no debate.

But for years while it dragged on, it kept getting pushed to the top of the news cycle.

Then the Government decided to hold a plebiscite. $150million AUD would be spent on plebiscite that would 1 - Be voluntary and 2 - the Government didn't even need to abide by it if it was an overwhelming "Yes".

Which ignited the flames even more and the bigots got louder, the supporters got louder, and I just wanted marriage equality to be legalised, but had to endure all the arguments.

So I try to escape to the comics ... and it's there too. This spills over to the forums. Suddenly my escape from reality has had reality seep in.

It made the comics hard for me to enjoy.

So you see, some people aren't bigots. They just want to escape from reality for a little bit.

Perhaps if I hadn't had to sit through years of loud noisy bigots fearful that marriage equality would cause cows to stop producing milk then I might have been able to enjoy the comics more, I dunno.