Buyer Beware: New KO of Fans Project Shadow Commander

Thanks for posting.

You just have to wonder...

Why knock-off Shadow Commander? You can still buy it from online stores.

What's the point anyway? I mean FansProject doesn't even make money. Besides it's still in stock

Slayershoop wrote:What's the point anyway? I mean FansProject doesn't even make money. Besides it's still in stock

To screw BBTS over with a cheaper product available outside their store.

Counterpunch wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:What's the point anyway? I mean FansProject doesn't even make money. Besides it's still in stock

To screw BBTS over with a cheaper product available outside their store.

true true

Slayershoop wrote:Thanks for posting.

No no no, thank YOU for telling us my good friend. The guys over at Fans Project work too damn hard and put out a fine product. Its one thing for HASBRO to get the KO affect, heck to a degree I think they want it to happen, but for a group of TF fans like ourselves who just want to make our Transformers even more awesome to have to deal with this crap is just plain stupid.

I own the City Commander set and the Powered Commander with plans to get Shadow Commander when I can afford him and now I gotta look out to make sure I don't buy this KO piece of crap.

BBTS is over 100 with shipping. How much is the KO? Where can I get one? What about the seller from Japan on ebay selling ones with damaged boxes? Are they the real ones?

Transtopias Rodimus Prime wrote:BBTS is over 100 with shipping. How much is the KO? Where can I get one? What about the seller from Japan on ebay selling ones with damaged boxes? Are they the real ones?

What's the matter with you? I mean seriously FansProject works their asses off to make a quality product and they don't make any money and you WANT TO BUY THE KNOCK-OFF TO SAVE MONEY? GOOD GOD! Seriously, give FansProject the money they deserve.

Slayershoop wrote:

Transtopias Rodimus Prime wrote:BBTS is over 100 with shipping. How much is the KO? Where can I get one? What about the seller from Japan on ebay selling ones with damaged boxes? Are they the real ones?

What's the matter with you? I mean seriously FansProject works their asses off to make a quality product and they don't make any money and you WANT TO BUY THE KNOCK-OFF TO SAVE MONEY? GOOD GOD! Seriously, give FansProject the money they deserve.

Agreed. FansProject doesn't deserve to be screwed over like this and I've got a problem with anyone who would encourage and/or support the people who are pulling this stunt. Yeah, I've been over on the KO threads today and I have not exactly been discouraging the practice against Hasbro but this is on a totally different level in my book.
1) Hasbro can take the hit
2) Hasbro has it coming
3) Most of them worth getting are releases of past, no longer in production items.

What these guys have done to FP is so unconscionable that even seeing the folks responsible get sued would not be satisfying enough for me. I believe that in some countries still, the punishment for stealing involves the loss of a hand. I think that would be a good start...

Is there any idea what kind of quality this monstrocity is? It looks nice enough, but you can tell that it doesn't fold together very well. How's the plastic?

i bought one thinking it was a good product on ebay. the sellers name is toy models.... man im so disappointed, but what can i do now except dispute it with the seller. you really have to be careful out there.

arneld048 wrote:i bought one thinking it was a good product on ebay. the sellers name is toy models.... man im so disappointed, but what can i do now except dispute it with the seller. you really have to be careful out there.

Hey there, welcome to the site! Wish it was under better circumstances.

Best of luck with your dispute. Please let us know if we can help in anyway.

I was bidding on one of these from that very same seller Wow....That sucks.... Anyone have a link where I could try and get a legit one?

T-Macksimus wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:

Transtopias Rodimus Prime wrote:BBTS is over 100 with shipping. How much is the KO? Where can I get one? What about the seller from Japan on ebay selling ones with damaged boxes? Are they the real ones?

What's the matter with you? I mean seriously FansProject works their asses off to make a quality product and they don't make any money and you WANT TO BUY THE KNOCK-OFF TO SAVE MONEY? GOOD GOD! Seriously, give FansProject the money they deserve.

Agreed. FansProject doesn't deserve to be screwed over like this and I've got a problem with anyone who would encourage and/or support the people who are pulling this stunt. Yeah, I've been over on the KO threads today and I have not exactly been discouraging the practice against Hasbro but this is on a totally different level in my book.
1) Hasbro can take the hit
2) Hasbro has it coming
3) Most of them worth getting are releases of past, no longer in production items.

What these guys have done to FP is so unconscionable that even seeing the folks responsible get sued would not be satisfying enough for me. I believe that in some countries still, the punishment for stealing involves the loss of a hand. I think that would be a good start...

As an artist, I can say that I'm pissed that anyone would actually post asking where they could get a bootleg. Fans Project spent a LONG time developing the Commander series and offered it at a price that is impossible to argue. If they were out to make money they could have easily sold it for $250 and would have still sold out, but they didn't. They chose to break even and they said that anything that actually was profit was dumped into the next project. The profit wasn't lining wallets, it was allowing them to continue their work and in turn benefit us. When you think about it, buying from Fans Project is an investment. Not in the profit sense, but in the idea of we'll see our money go to new products.

I've purchased both the City and Shadow sets and I'd love to get the Powered set. Why did I buy them? Mostly for asthetics, but also to support the talented artists who created them.

When you buy the KO, the original artists are not receiving any kind of compensation. There are a few special case scenarios, but I'm not going to delve into them.

T-Macksimus: I'm dissapointed in you. You say that Hasbro can deal with getting bootleged, but the fact of the matter is that they can't.
1. The G1 market has taken an incredible hit over the past few years
2. Many collectors are avoiding G1 in fear of getting a fake
3. The low quality items passed off as originals could damage the products reputation in the eyes of an untrained consumer.
4. Hasbro has been trying to get certain figures reissued. Hasn't that been discussed in Botcons past? If more KOs are made, Hasbro would be less likely to rerelease a figure due to a flooded market.

Neither Hasbro or Fans Project deserve this. I know Fans Project said it doesn't bother them that they get KOed, but it should bother the consumers to no end.

Well, for starters, you're giving a lot more credit to the collectors overall impact on Hasbro than Hasbro EVER will.
Secondly, the info on KO's has been out there for so long that anyone who is actually into it seriously and HASN'T done all of their homework deserves to get burned. I've had my kids question why I pass up stuff at Swap Meets and I've gone and shown them what gave a toy away as being a knock-off so now even they look out for stuff or have me inspect before purchasing.
Going back to the impact on Hasbro, points 1 thru 3 are tied together and should in no way effect Hasbro. Those all have to deal with collector markets. The re-issues through Toys R Us were slow and impacted Hasbro (slightly) but that was through a product of their own making. As for future re-releases...that's the first I've heard of it. Unless they plan on re-releasing the same damn G1 Prime mold AGAIN.
You said you were dissapointed in me. You should be dissapointed in Hasbro or haven't you noticed the trend in their products that's been slowly creeping in over the last year and half. Hasbro is still mass producing crap for their target demographic and it's still being gobbled up like always, that's why I said they could afford to take the hit and their treatment of the fans (who aren't their target demo but are supposedly still important) is why I said they have it coming. Either way, what is more important than my opinion is the fact of what these a**holes are doing to FP and what, if anything, can be done to stop them. FP is giving us stuff Hasbro never will and now someone is out to screw that all up.

This is just nasty.

A KO of a figure long out of production by a big company that has many other lines to support it is one thing but doing this to a new company that relies on sales of just a few products to keep going is a disgrace.

I urge everyone reading not to touch these things. Lets send a message to these people.

maybe we all should come together and hire a P.I. and find out were these people live
so we can take care of the problem

Cant FP sue these guys or some thing? And whats the point of this any way? If it included a KO of prime with it then id get it but its just the extra parts. And these are still easy to find. Its not like a figure from the 80s that you cant get any more. This is just wrong. Screw the evil corporation hasbro (they do it to us all the time so why not) not the little guy.

at least they covered the damn screw holes
something which ruins alot of figures

if this was cheap enough it would be alright for spare parts as i've heard many people have broken the offical version(s)

This is the kind of KOs I despise because they're of current products. And being for products from a small company for fans is even worse .

Weird, I posted this as news yesterday but it disappeared. I presume it was probably that PM server glitch that wiped it out.

Anywho, all one has to do is look at the paint application on the the KO to see the difference. The lines are horribly-so much paint bleed. Anyone who would knowingly seek one of these out over the original is crazy IMO.

I wonder how people would've reacted if the KO was in Powered Commander colors

Wow, a thread warning us of a KO that turns into Hasbro bashing. Gee, I wouldn't have seen that coming...

"Hasbro has it coming." That's total BS. Did you get "screwed over" by Hasbro? Did they come to your house and steal your toys? You think they don't care about the fans? Have you watched an episode of TF: Animated? Have you see the G1 references they throw in there? How about Universe? that wasn't for the fans/collectors? Oh wait, I know what it is.. you're pissed about The Seekers, aren't you?

okeee, how did this get to a hasbro bashing thread...anywho, personally, I don't know why anyone would even want to buy a knock off unless they plan to repaint the whole thing into another character. I mean, what's wrong with you? Transtopia Rodimus, you actually want something that is obviously inferior to the original. It reaks of fail, but if you like that, why don't you just go buy some knock off Gobots. Cause that piece of crap is worth just about that much.

double post edit

robofreak wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:

Slayershoop wrote:

Transtopias Rodimus Prime wrote:BBTS is over 100 with shipping. How much is the KO? Where can I get one? What about the seller from Japan on ebay selling ones with damaged boxes? Are they the real ones?

What's the matter with you? I mean seriously FansProject works their asses off to make a quality product and they don't make any money and you WANT TO BUY THE KNOCK-OFF TO SAVE MONEY? GOOD GOD! Seriously, give FansProject the money they deserve.

Agreed. FansProject doesn't deserve to be screwed over like this and I've got a problem with anyone who would encourage and/or support the people who are pulling this stunt. Yeah, I've been over on the KO threads today and I have not exactly been discouraging the practice against Hasbro but this is on a totally different level in my book.
1) Hasbro can take the hit
2) Hasbro has it coming
3) Most of them worth getting are releases of past, no longer in production items.

What these guys have done to FP is so unconscionable that even seeing the folks responsible get sued would not be satisfying enough for me. I believe that in some countries still, the punishment for stealing involves the loss of a hand. I think that would be a good start...

As an artist, I can say that I'm pissed that anyone would actually post asking where they could get a bootleg. Fans Project spent a LONG time developing the Commander series and offered it at a price that is impossible to argue. If they were out to make money they could have easily sold it for $250 and would have still sold out, but they didn't. They chose to break even and they said that anything that actually was profit was dumped into the next project. The profit wasn't lining wallets, it was allowing them to continue their work and in turn benefit us. When you think about it, buying from Fans Project is an investment. Not in the profit sense, but in the idea of we'll see our money go to new products.

I've purchased both the City and Shadow sets and I'd love to get the Powered set. Why did I buy them? Mostly for asthetics, but also to support the talented artists who created them.

When you buy the KO, the original artists are not receiving any kind of compensation. There are a few special case scenarios, but I'm not going to delve into them.

T-Macksimus: I'm dissapointed in you. You say that Hasbro can deal with getting bootleged, but the fact of the matter is that they can't.
1. The G1 market has taken an incredible hit over the past few years
2. Many collectors are avoiding G1 in fear of getting a fake
3. The low quality items passed off as originals could damage the products reputation in the eyes of an untrained consumer.
4. Hasbro has been trying to get certain figures reissued. Hasn't that been discussed in Botcons past? If more KOs are made, Hasbro would be less likely to rerelease a figure due to a flooded market.

Neither Hasbro or Fans Project deserve this. I know Fans Project said it doesn't bother them that they get KOed, but it should bother the consumers to no end.

Okay, lets back off TRP here folks. There is a HUGE market for KO's and someone asking where one can be found is not against the law. What he does and what he buys is his prerogative. Its no different from a Takara Fan Boy bashing those who buy HASBRO products, its a choice. Whether you like it or not he's allowed to find and buy this until Fans Project makes it so he can't.

And lets not get on HASBRO, please. For one thats not even what this thread is about and secondly its a whole different ball game. Yes I said, to a degree, I think HASBRO allows KO's but to keep the INTEREST in Transformers alive, to get those who buy KO's to get back into the game of buying good quality TF's.

Yes Im totally against a KO of Fans Projects stuff but don't go ballistic on someone just cause they may want to own one at a cheaper price.

Nujevad wrote:I wonder how people would've reacted if the KO was in Powered Commander colors

That's funny...and a good question actually.

I don't condone KOs, but didn't FP sell all their product and isn't it true that they don't do multiple runs of their product (outside of Powered Commander?) If both of those are true statements, I don't quite see how FP is getting royally screwed over here. Just like a KO of a toy that's no longer available doesn't really hurt Hasbro. Sure, the secondary market and the collectors suffer, but that's a whole 'nother story.

arneld048 wrote:i bought one thinking it was a good product on ebay. the sellers name is toy models.... man im so disappointed, but what can i do now except dispute it with the seller. you really have to be careful out there.

Bummer, dude. Is it s**t quality like 99% of all KOs out there to boot?

I can confirm that the E-bay member Toy-models is selling the knock-offs. I got my Shadow commander last week. When i opened the box everything looked o.k. but since my Nemesis Prime arrived a couple of days later i couldn't try him out. And unfortunately i gave him a positive feedback because i have to say it arrived real fast. When i got my Nemesis Prime and put on the armor it's arms fell straight off and some parts were glued together in a very bad way. Another E-bay member put this knock-off issue under my attention before this article appeared. And the pictures in this article confirm it. I've already contacted E-bay and Paypal and i hope i will see my money back and that this seller will be suspended and put out of bussiness.
If anybody else bought this item from toy-models on E-bay, i suggest you do the same.

Q-united wrote:I can confirm that the E-bay member Toy-models is selling the knock-offs. I got my Shadow commander last week. When i opened the box everything looked o.k. but since my Nemesis Prime arrived a couple of days later i couldn't try him out. And unfortunately i gave him a positive feedback because i have to say it arrived real fast. When i got my Nemesis Prime and put on the armor it's arms fell straight off and some parts were glued together in a very bad way. Another E-bay member put this knock-off issue under my attention before this article appeared. And the pictures in this article confirm it. I've already contacted E-bay and Paypal and i hope i will see my money back and that this seller will be suspended and put out of bussiness.
If anybody else bought this item from toy-models on E-bay, i suggest you do the same.

Welcome to Seibertron.com Q-united and Thank you for sharing your unfortunate story with us. We appreciate you taking the time out to help other TF Collectors avoid such scams as these, it really means alot to the community.

I hope you continue to come back here to Seibertron.com and continue to post here on the forums.

It's also very informative to know what is wrong with the knock offs as well. Besides what Fans Proj posted I mean. I hope you can get your money back Q-united.

BTW, this isn't Q from the con last year is it?

I must admit I nearly bought one of the knock offs on eBay but then I saw how many he had available and thought "damn that's a lot of damaged boxes, something here is fishy" and I'm glad I did now.

I feel sorry for those that bought them and I hope your disputes go your way.

No, i'm not that Q. I'm from the Netherlands and would love to visit a convention one day. But i think the trip would cost me all my spending money. I have made a mistake about the sellers user-name. It's Toys-models from Japan and not Toy-models. And to be a bit more precise about the flaws of the product i have to ad that there were no screw-hole cover-up parts included for the obvious reason that there were no screw-holes. The armors shoulder posts have a very loose fit and are very hard to keep in place for a good display.
On a you-tube review you could hear the waist-part click in place by an authentic version. With my version i'm very lucky it stays in place long enough to give the figure a nice display pose. And each time i want to flip the licence plate i brake a nail.
As i mentioned in my first reply the arms are the biggest drama to keep in place because they are just to wide to snap in place. So theres no way he can wear that big gun of which btw the handle does not fit in the hand. And last but not least the chest-piece. It was glued together so badly that it always hangs to much to the left or right side and the flaps on the back-side are so loose that they can't prevent this from happening.

I regret i did not do enough "research" on this item to know that the price was just way to low to be an authentic item. Not only beacause the pictures that were placed in this offer were of an authentic one (which makes me even more miserable). And
i've also seen some replies from people who are glad they can get a cheap Shadow Commander.

Well, is this what you realy want?

im also a one who unfortunately bought one too, q. the seller replied to me and this is what he said " hello, sorry for late reply. in fact for the past few days, we're trying to get answers from our supplier. till now, our supplier did not admit that this is a knock off version and we could do nothing for any compensation! however we do want to make some compensation for our customers on out part. if you send the figure back to us, it's money and time-consuming. so we would like to refund you us$35.00 as compensation. would you agree with that? thx a lot!


- toys-models" this is crap because i spent 50 for the toy and 35. for shipping. and all he wants to do is payback the shipping. screw that!!!!! i told him i want a refund and to keep the KO. it may not go on nemesis prime very well, but the trailer looks ok on him. its a lesson learned i guess..

That's too bad. I own the original City Commander and it is freaking awesome! And the price was very do-able. Now I had no idea that Fans Project wasn't making much if any money out of these things but $250 per shot? I don't think as many people would be willing to buy them, I would not have. I can see $100-150, Hasbro would sell them for that I think (the greedy $^&%%^!@).
Anyways, for a KO company to come along and rip off such a sweet rarity is pathetic, appalling. I've noticed the pictures and if you can't tell the rip off then you deserve to lose your money on such cheap-@!#$ plastic.
All I can say is if I had Nemesis Prime and Optimus Prime I would invest in the upgrades as well...from Fans Project, not the KO rip-offs.

Hasbroman - Janet, can you get me the subsidiary on the phone?

- Phone Rings -
- Phone Picks Up -

Hasbroman - Run the Commander... Usual distribution methods.

- Phone Hangs Up -

Hasbroman - Damn kids pissin in my pool...

I think it's absolutlely hilarious - FansProject are getting exactly what they deserve!

In all this talk of copyright, everyone is forgetting who the original copyright thieves are - FansProject themselves. The design of Ultra Magnus belongs to Hasbro, and FP are using it without permission.

The fact that FP themselves are being copied... well, that's just karma, isn't it?

starfish wrote:I think it's absolutlely hilarious - FansProject are getting exactly what they deserve!

In all this talk of copyright, everyone is forgetting who the original copyright thieves are - FansProject themselves. The design of Ultra Magnus belongs to Hasbro, and FP are using it without permission.

The fact that FP themselves are being copied... well, that's just karma, isn't it?

Okay, what the hell, they make no profit and go out of their way to not copy Hasbro, they come up with original designs and they rock and don't you think that Hasbro would have called them on the whole thing a while ago if they didn't want it to happen? Let's face it, Hasbro likes FransProject because they help Hasbro sell toys. Do you honestly think that as many Ultra Magnuses or Nemesis Primes would have sold if the Commander series hadn't come out? Hasbro sells more toys because of FansProject, in no way do they deserve this. They are Transformers fans too, they do this for other fans and sell their stuff for cost. I'm sorry, but you sir, are wrong.

Slayershoop wrote:

starfish wrote:I think it's absolutlely hilarious - FansProject are getting exactly what they deserve!

In all this talk of copyright, everyone is forgetting who the original copyright thieves are - FansProject themselves. The design of Ultra Magnus belongs to Hasbro, and FP are using it without permission.

The fact that FP themselves are being copied... well, that's just karma, isn't it?

Okay, what the hell, they make no profit and go out of their way to not copy Hasbro, they come up with original designs and they rock and don't you think that Hasbro would have called them on the whole thing a while ago if they didn't want it to happen? Let's face it, Hasbro likes FransProject because they help Hasbro sell toys. Do you honestly think that as many Ultra Magnuses or Nemesis Primes would have sold if the Commander series hadn't come out? Hasbro sells more toys because of FansProject, in no way do they deserve this. They are Transformers fans too, they do this for other fans and sell their stuff for cost. I'm sorry, but you sir, are wrong.

A toy that looks like Ultra Magnus is not an "original design".

FansProject sales are minimal, I doubt they make even the slightest bit of difference to those of megabucks Hasbro. The only people it helps are those who want to sell their classics Magnuses (Magni?) on ebay. Before FP, I could get a Magnus & Skywarp set on ebay for under £10. A couple of years ago they were shelfwarmers in my local Woolworths. Now an opened Magnus on ebay can go for silly money. How does that help Hasbro?

It doesn't matter if FP are a non-profit organisation. What they do is copyright theft. If I copy a CD and give a copy to a friend for the cost of a blank CD, that too is theft. It matters not one jot whether or not I'm making a proft, it's still illegal.

Besides, I'm very dubious that these guys are non-profit. All we have is their own say-so... I'd love to have a look at their accounts. I mean, if they sell these things at cost then how come the non-chromed Shadow Commander cost way more than the chromed one?

starfish wrote:A toy that looks like Ultra Magnus is not an "original design".

Sure the exterior bears certain similarities to the original G1 depiction of Ultra Magnus, however the engineering, mold design and marketing go out of their way to be different from all official incarnations of Ultra Magnus. In other words, there are similarities, but only so far a FreeBSD is similar to Linux. Unless you're a lawyer and can produce a court-worthy argument of this point, I will stick with City Commander being a "original design"

FansProject sales are minimal, I doubt they make even the slightest bit of difference to those of megabucks Hasbro. The only people it helps are those who want to sell their classics Magnuses (Magni?) on ebay. Before FP, I could get a Magnus & Skywarp set on ebay for under £10. A couple of years ago they were shelfwarmers in my local Woolworths. Now an opened Magnus on ebay can go for silly money. How does that help Hasbro?

Perhaps City Commander came along far too late to help Ultra Magnus sell, but Shadow Commander assisted in selling off more SDCC Nemesis Primes and the Upcoming Superion Limbs will guarentee that the ROTF Superion will fly off the shelves, and most likely the Bruticus too because fans will hedge their bets that a limb set for him is next. That will help Hasbro.

It doesn't matter if FP are a non-profit organisation. What they do is copyright theft. If I copy a CD and give a copy to a friend for the cost of a blank CD, that too is theft. It matters not one jot whether or not I'm making a proft, it's still illegal.

Again, that comes down to what is and isn't copyrighted. They've designed the character, the mold, the engineering and the connection sequence with the Hasbro Ultra Magnus figure all without stealing or poaching any ideas from Hasbro. And before you try the whole "Trailer combines with robot" argument, such a technique is hardly confined to Transformers. The whole "x combines with y" is pretty common in some cartoons and anime. If Hasbro has a copyright on the image of what an Ultra Magnus should look like, then there could be an argument. But I'm not a fan of searching the US Patent office so I cannot say definitively that they do or don't. I highly suspect they don't though.

Besides, I'm very dubious that these guys are non-profit. All we have is their own say-so... I'd love to have a look at their accounts. I mean, if they sell these things at cost then how come the non-chromed Shadow Commander cost way more than the chromed one?

Wait... there's a chromed Shadow Commander out there?

Fansproject: profit or non profit, who gives a damn? All I really care about is the products they have, their morals are about as relevant to me as Hasbro's.

I honestly don't think Fansproject could give a hoot anyway, they have made all the Shadow Commaders they ever will and sold them all to retail. I think the only reason they have highlighted the matter with the KOs is to avoid any comeback to them. (oh I see, your Shadow Commander is borked, I'm really sorry but we didn't make this one, please stop emailing us)

The funniest thing to come out of all of this is that it's this version that's been KO'd, this is the only one you can still get at retail anyway. I know alarm bells would ring if a large number of City Commanders popped up on eBay, but hell, in a free economic environment supply will always equal demand and you could sell a damn sight more with a knocked off City Commander; whether people knew it was dodgy or not.

Slayershoop wrote: Do you honestly think that as many Ultra Magnuses or Nemesis Primes would have sold if the Commander series hadn't come out?

Actually, yes...considering Magnus wasn't sold at retail when CC came out, Hasbro didn't sell any additional units there. And I doubt any more Nemesis Prime figs were produced because of it and I think all those would have sold out regarless of SC as well. I'm personally not against FP like the person you were replying to, but I do disagree with the point that Hasbro is making additional profits because of FP.

starfish wrote:A toy that looks like Ultra Magnus is not an "original design".

Does it really "look" like Ultra Magnus? I remember a big gripe from fans BEFORE City Commander, NOT Ultra Magnus, came out that it DIDN'T look like Ultra Magnus. And of all the HASBRO releases, I don't remember ANY of their Ultra Magnus's looking anything like City Commander. Case in point:

HASBRO's UM


Fans Projects CC

starfish wrote:FansProject sales are minimal, I doubt they make even the slightest bit of difference to those of megabucks Hasbro. The only people it helps are those who want to sell their classics Magnuses (Magni?) on ebay. Before FP, I could get a Magnus & Skywarp set on ebay for under £10. A couple of years ago they were shelfwarmers in my local Woolworths. Now an opened Magnus on ebay can go for silly money. How does that help Hasbro?

Well, you kinda kill your argument by mentioning the FACT that the Magnus/ Skywarp Two packs were shelf warmers. Why didn't you get one then? And its Fans Projects fault for making an upgrade to a figure that ANYONE could have gotten easily and didn't want as it "warmed shelves" for so long? And you ask HOW does it help HASBRO eh? Well if FP can make an upgrade to an "undesired" figure and make it a hard to find figure, what happens when they make an upgrade for figures that people are gonna want? Simple supply and demand economics kid.

starfish wrote:It doesn't matter if FP are a non-profit organisation. What they do is copyright theft. If I copy a CD and give a copy to a friend for the cost of a blank CD, that too is theft. It matters not one jot whether or not I'm making a proft, it's still illegal.

Refer to the images above and ask yourself how that is copyright theft. The upgrade isn't called Ultra Magnus its called City Commander to which there is no copyright. Thats like me saying YOU'RE in violation of copyright laws cause I have a starfish in my aquarium at home.

starfish wrote:Besides, I'm very dubious that these guys are non-profit. All we have is their own say-so... I'd love to have a look at their accounts. I mean, if they sell these things at cost then how come the non-chromed Shadow Commander cost way more than the chromed one?

Where is this "chromed Shadow Commander"? First I've ever heard of it and its my job to know whats going on the TF world before you. And so what if they take some cash for their time in designing and producing the figures. No Non For Profit could ever run a company to break even, that's fiscally impossible. The definition of Non For Profit means they don't sell their products at a premium to make additional funds above the cost of production of an item. So if I make figure X for $7.00USD and want to make a profit, I have to sell it for $29.99USD to cover shipping, materials and the people that make it happen to still make any form of profit.

Hey if you wanna bash or "hate" on Fans Project cause you're not willing to shell out the cash to buy an upgrade kit, then fine, you got every right. But don't say they deserve anything to happen to them like this because you feel they cost too much. Any hobby you get into has its inexpensive items and its expensive ones, just like Transformers.

Oof. I don't necessarily agree with what FP do but they didn't deserve to have this happen to them.

I have mix feelings, the pros about this is that some one coverd the holes and try to make it better, also ppl can use the kos for kidbashing and do what ever they want, that way we have the real thing that cannot be destroyed cuss its real and made by a fan for the fans. the cons about this is that some one made a copy. i hope who ever made this give fans project 50% of the money.

First Gen wrote:Does it really "look" like Ultra Magnus? I remember a big gripe from fans BEFORE City Commander, NOT Ultra Magnus, came out that it DIDN'T look like Ultra Magnus. And of all the HASBRO releases, I don't remember ANY of their Ultra Magnus's looking anything like City Commander.

Well, they look kinda similar to me. Okay, so they're not exactly identical, but that doesn't really matter. FP clearly based their designs on the Hasbro character, I don't think that's in question. Do they look enough alike to suggest plagiarism? Well, you obviously don't, I guess. I think they do. We'll just have to agree-to-disagree on this one.

First Gen wrote:

starfish wrote:FansProject sales are minimal, I doubt they make even the slightest bit of difference to those of megabucks Hasbro. The only people it helps are those who want to sell their classics Magnuses (Magni?) on ebay. Before FP, I could get a Magnus & Skywarp set on ebay for under £10. A couple of years ago they were shelfwarmers in my local Woolworths. Now an opened Magnus on ebay can go for silly money. How does that help Hasbro?

Well, you kinda kill your argument by mentioning the FACT that the Magnus/ Skywarp Two packs were shelf warmers. Why didn't you get one then? And its Fans Projects fault for making an upgrade to a figure that ANYONE could have gotten easily and didn't want as it "warmed shelves" for so long? And you ask HOW does it help HASBRO eh? Well if FP can make an upgrade to an "undesired" figure and make it a hard to find figure, what happens when they make an upgrade for figures that people are gonna want? Simple supply and demand economics kid.

Well, as both an owner of the Magnus set and an economics graduate, I don't see the flaw in my argument. My point was merely that the add-on was for a toy that has since ceased production. As such, any increase in demand will only benefit the secondary market. Simple economics, kid.

First Gen wrote:

starfish wrote:It doesn't matter if FP are a non-profit organisation. What they do is copyright theft. If I copy a CD and give a copy to a friend for the cost of a blank CD, that too is theft. It matters not one jot whether or not I'm making a proft, it's still illegal.

Refer to the images above and ask yourself how that is copyright theft. The upgrade isn't called Ultra Magnus its called City Commander to which there is no copyright. Thats like me saying YOU'RE in violation of copyright laws cause I have a starfish in my aquarium at home.

Overlooking for one moment your silly analogy, no-one owns the rights to the word 'starfish', therefore I'm free to use it as I wish. But 'City Commander' is a combination of words that can be copyrighted, in much the same way that Hasbro have done with the likes of 'Mixmaster' or 'Starscream'. Hasbro spend a lot of money in getting the legal situation right with regards to naming. That's why we get toys such as 'Autobot Jazz' instead of plain 'Jazz'. Have FP done their legal homework? After all, Hasbro were the first to use the phrase in conjuction with Ultra Magnus, who had the words "Function: City Commander" printed onto his box.

As I said before, it's down to personal opinion as to whether or not the two look similar. I think the point is, City Commander and Magnus look enough alike for those who bought the add-on set.

First Gen wrote:

starfish wrote:Besides, I'm very dubious that these guys are non-profit. All we have is their own say-so... I'd love to have a look at their accounts. I mean, if they sell these things at cost then how come the non-chromed Shadow Commander cost way more than the chromed one?

Where is this "chromed Shadow Commander"? First I've ever heard of it and its my job to know whats going on the TF world before you. And so what if they take some cash for their time in designing and producing the figures. No Non For Profit could ever run a company to break even, that's fiscally impossible. The definition of Non For Profit means they don't sell their products at a premium to make additional funds above the cost of production of an item. So if I make figure X for $7.00USD and want to make a profit, I have to sell it for $29.99USD to cover shipping, materials and the people that make it happen to still make any form of profit.

Apologies, I was referring to the chromed and non-chromed versions of the third set, the red-and-navy one, whatever it's called. Otherwise, my point still stands, which I think you seem to have missed. Many defenders of FP claim that it's okay for them to produce Magnus-lookalikes, so long as they are run on a non-profit basis. I was merely arguing against that assumption.

First Gen wrote:Hey if you wanna bash or "hate" on Fans Project cause you're not willing to shell out the cash to buy an upgrade kit, then fine, you got every right. But don't say they deserve anything to happen to them like this because you feel they cost too much. Any hobby you get into has its inexpensive items and its expensive ones, just like Transformers.

Now you are putting words into my mouth. At no point did I ever claim to hate FP, their products or their general pricing policy.

Indeed, if anyone seems to have a bias here, it is you. I understand that you enjoy the products that FP offer, and that you have a selfish desire to see them continue to produce their range unhindered. As a loyal FP customer, you have a personal interest in seeing them do well. Perhaps this tendency is also to blame for blinding you to the similarities between the real Ultra Magnus and the FP set. Whatever.

The point is that, from a neutral perspective, there is a definite irony that a company who produce borderline-litigious "resemblances" of Hasbro designs are now themselves the victims of design theft.

Don't you think that if Hasbro had a problem with FP that they would have said or done something about it seeing as how they rubbed shoulders with the guys at the last 'con where this set was released?
As for defending/condemning folks who buy or sell KO's? I won't condemn anyone for buying KO's of major corporations stuff. I'd do it myself most likely especially if it was a way to get someting G1-like for my kids without having to worry about it staying on a shelf to never be played with. I have no vested interest in FP but having owned a small business myself, I know what these guys go through trying to make it work and somebody doing KO's of a group that is just starting out and isn't even in it for themselves is just plain evil.
For those who took exception to my comment that "Hasbro has it coming", T F B!
Open your eyes folks. They havent "given" us jack! They do the minimum to keep us from being a pain in their ass and that's it. Grow up and see it for what it really is. We aren't where the money is and we never will be so don't waste time inflating your own egos. They CAN handle the hit from the KO guys better than someone like FP and that much you can't argue.

T-Macksimus, you are, as always, a legend.

I'm firmly of the opinion that ALL KOs are evil. I realise I may have been facetious and belligerent in previous posts, but believe me when I say that the makers of this shoddy KO ought to be jailed, if not flogged to death.

Also, I humbly apologise to First Gen for my patronising and condescending attitude. First Gen my man, you are a star.

As I said, though, ALL KO's really suck. Legally and morally, I don't care whether you are ripping off a small company or a megabucks corporation, it's all the same. So it's okay to rip off Hasbro? Try telling that to fans who unwittingly bought KO encore Metroplexes.

As with all of you, I'm a fan of Transformers first and foremost.

We may disagree on some stuff, but we're all the same underneath. Maybe we should stop sniping at each other and at Hasbro, and let rip on the idiots who are making the KOs.

starfish wrote:T-Macksimus, you are, as always, a legend.

I'm firmly of the opinion that ALL KOs are evil. I realise I may have been facetious and belligerent in previous posts, but believe me when I say that the makers of this shoddy KO ought to be jailed, if not flogged to death.

Also, I humbly apologise to First Gen for my patronising and condescending attitude. First Gen my man, you are a star.

As I said, though, ALL KO's really suck. Legally and morally, I don't care whether you are ripping off a small company or a megabucks corporation, it's all the same. So it's okay to rip off Hasbro? Try telling that to fans who unwittingly bought KO encore Metroplexes.

As with all of you, I'm a fan of Transformers first and foremost.

We may disagree on some stuff, but we're all the same underneath. Maybe we should stop sniping at each other and at Hasbro, and let rip on the idiots who are making the KOs.

Starfish, after your second post I understand your argument better an can see where you're coming from, but legally, there have been enough "changes" to City Commander from the G1 Version of Ultra Magnus to keep HASBRO from even remotely thinking of copyright issues. And ulitmately, anything that gets you back into Transformers or buying figures ultimately helps HASBRO. While they can't control the secondary market, all they care about is initial sales which will go up. You know this.

starfish wrote:T-Macksimus, you are, as always, a legend.

I'm firmly of the opinion that ALL KOs are evil. I realise I may have been facetious and belligerent in previous posts, but believe me when I say that the makers of this shoddy KO ought to be jailed, if not flogged to death.

Also, I humbly apologise to First Gen for my patronising and condescending attitude. First Gen my man, you are a star.

As I said, though, ALL KO's really suck. Legally and morally, I don't care whether you are ripping off a small company or a megabucks corporation, it's all the same. So it's okay to rip off Hasbro? Try telling that to fans who unwittingly bought KO encore Metroplexes.

As with all of you, I'm a fan of Transformers first and foremost.

We may disagree on some stuff, but we're all the same underneath. Maybe we should stop sniping at each other and at Hasbro, and let rip on the idiots who are making the KOs.

Starfish, after your second post I understand your argument better an can see where you're coming from, but legally, there have been enough "changes" to City Commander from the G1 Version of Ultra Magnus to keep HASBRO from even remotely thinking of copyright issues. And ulitmately, anything that gets you back into Transformers or buying figures ultimately helps HASBRO. While they can't control the secondary market, all they care about is initial sales which will go up. You know this.

starfish wrote:I think it's absolutlely hilarious - FansProject are getting exactly what they deserve!

In all this talk of copyright, everyone is forgetting who the original copyright thieves are - FansProject themselves. The design of Ultra Magnus belongs to Hasbro, and FP are using it without permission.

The fact that FP themselves are being copied... well, that's just karma, isn't it?

They are not infringing on copyrights. They are using Ultra Magnus as a means to create the trailer. Now if they were to do a KO of Magnus or Prime themselves thats different.

Regarding the appearance of City Commander, he looks close enough to the original Ultra Magnus for my taste. The head mold is wierd looking, the missile launchers are missing but that can be fixed w/ original launchers.