English Translation for Unite Warriors Baldigus Comic

Note that this translation uses the English names and terms for the Car Robots characters and terminalogy (minus Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy), so there might some slight confusion in that regard (i.e. - RiD Scourge's Japanese name was Black Convoy, while UW Grand Scourge is already that guy's Japanese name).

@Will - Why is the Grand Galvatron comic (which take place three stories before the Baldigus comic) included?

Sabrblade wrote:Note that this translation uses the English names and terms for the Car Robots characters and terminalogy (minus Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy), so there might some slight confusion in that regard (i.e. - RiD Scourge's Japanese name was Black Convoy, while UW Grand Scourge is already that guy's Japanese name).

@Will - Why is the Grand Galvatron comic (which take place three stories before the Baldigus comic) included?

For people to see how the galvatron revelation makes no damn sense, and for people to catch up on our roller convo Also, because its a new translation we never newsed.

Sabrblade wrote:

Black Hat wrote:Yeah I suppose, I'm just a big fan of articulated hands in general. They're fun. And I must be honest, whilst they SUCKED as feet, HFGs made pretty good hands and surprisingly good weapons.

At the very least, the hands aren't like the original toy's G1-molded fists, which were solid pieces of hollowed-out plastic

Woah woah, wait. From reading these boards, I always thought hollowed out plastic was a recent thing and could not possibly have been found in the sacred G1 era.

Sabrblade wrote:

Kurona wrote:

william-james88 wrote:I was reading the comic and if the Roller that comes with Grand galvatron is IDW Roller, then this exchange makes no sense whatsoever:

Well, it is just Roller talking there. Doesn't give Optimus a chance to say anything more than his name. Maybe he's just a bit delusional

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:Well I mean, the only thing Optimus says is "Roller!", and it looks like Roller is implying they can talk later and maybe not know that this Prime isn't his. Plus, Prime could have been informed by either the Oracle or by combination with the others that this guy was Roller and he was angry.

Indeed!

Plus, Will, were you not the same william-james88 who wrote this post about Wandering Roller being IDW Roller back around when the Grand Galvatron set was revealed?

Yes that is me, but that was me before:
- it was confirmed that Roller wasnt Tarn
- I owne the toy
- I saw at what lengths you and Emerje would go to prove a point

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Note that this translation uses the English names and terms for the Car Robots characters and terminalogy (minus Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy), so there might some slight confusion in that regard (i.e. - RiD Scourge's Japanese name was Black Convoy, while UW Grand Scourge is already that guy's Japanese name).

@Will - Why is the Grand Galvatron comic (which take place three stories before the Baldigus comic) included?

For people to see how the galvatron revelation makes no damn sense, and for people to catch up on our roller convo Also, because its a new translation we never newsed.

You want the Lynxmaster and Megatronia comic translations those guys did as well?

Sabrblade wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Note that this translation uses the English names and terms for the Car Robots characters and terminalogy (minus Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy), so there might some slight confusion in that regard (i.e. - RiD Scourge's Japanese name was Black Convoy, while UW Grand Scourge is already that guy's Japanese name).

@Will - Why is the Grand Galvatron comic (which take place three stories before the Baldigus comic) included?

For people to see how the galvatron revelation makes no damn sense, and for people to catch up on our roller convo Also, because its a new translation we never newsed.

You want the Lynxmaster and Megatronia comic translations those guys did as well?

Na, those dont conrtibute to the Roller debate

But I dont remember seeing the lynx master translation, so by all means please post it here

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Note that this translation uses the English names and terms for the Car Robots characters and terminalogy (minus Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy), so there might some slight confusion in that regard (i.e. - RiD Scourge's Japanese name was Black Convoy, while UW Grand Scourge is already that guy's Japanese name).

@Will - Why is the Grand Galvatron comic (which take place three stories before the Baldigus comic) included?

For people to see how the galvatron revelation makes no damn sense, and for people to catch up on our roller convo Also, because its a new translation we never newsed.

You want the Lynxmaster and Megatronia comic translations those guys did as well?

Na, those dont conrtibute to the Roller debate

But I dont remember seeing the lynx master translation, so by all means please post it here

Lynxmaster - http://imgur.com/a/Mf8v2
Megatronia - http://imgur.com/a/WqIA9

Like the Grand Galvatron and Baldigus comic translations, these use the English names, so we got "Sky Reign" in place of "Lynxmaster" and "Optimus Maximus" in place of "Convoy Grand Prime".

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Black Hat wrote:Yeah I suppose, I'm just a big fan of articulated hands in general. They're fun. And I must be honest, whilst they SUCKED as feet, HFGs made pretty good hands and surprisingly good weapons.

At the very least, the hands aren't like the original toy's G1-molded fists, which were solid pieces of hollowed-out plastic

Woah woah, wait. From reading these boards, I always thought hollowed out plastic was a recent thing and could not possibly have been found in the sacred G1 era.

Sabrblade wrote:

Kurona wrote:

william-james88 wrote:I was reading the comic and if the Roller that comes with Grand galvatron is IDW Roller, then this exchange makes no sense whatsoever:

Well, it is just Roller talking there. Doesn't give Optimus a chance to say anything more than his name. Maybe he's just a bit delusional

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:Well I mean, the only thing Optimus says is "Roller!", and it looks like Roller is implying they can talk later and maybe not know that this Prime isn't his. Plus, Prime could have been informed by either the Oracle or by combination with the others that this guy was Roller and he was angry.

Indeed!

Plus, Will, were you not the same william-james88 who wrote this post about Wandering Roller being IDW Roller back around when the Grand Galvatron set was revealed?

Yes that is me, but that was me before:
- it was confirmed that Roller wasnt Tarn
- I owne the toy
- I saw at what lengths you and Emerje would go to prove a point

I'm not quite sure how the first two are relevant? It's clear that while this is a version of IDW Roller it's not the actual main IDW timeline so what happens in that main timeline isn't really relevant. And I'm not sure how owning the toy changes anything?

Kurona wrote:And I'm not sure how owning the toy changes anything?

It makes me care more than before.

i wonder if we will have the RID(2000) repaint

Ultra Markus wrote:i wonder if we will have the RID(2000) repaint

Probably not, that one was a mess. The "urban camo" grey redeco on the other hand...

Besides, we haven't heard a peep from a possible Hasbro Blast-Off, and we already have an obligatory redeco: the G2 one.

Love the artwork in these comics.

I like how they make RID part of G1.

Windsweeper wrote:Love the artwork in these comics.

I like how they make RID part of G1.

Car Robots, you mean. Car Robots is part of the Japanese G1 timeline, but the English RiD version is still its own non-G1 series. The English translation just went with the English names instead (save for Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy).

william-james88 wrote:- I saw at what lengths you and Emerje would go to prove a point

Sometimes you just feel the urge to make a point. But at least until the next comic or Sakamoto himself chimes in I'm going to put my side of the debate to rest. Not conceding or anything, it's just clear that we aren't going to change each other's minds.

Emerje

I wasn't planning to buy Baldigus, I already have the Hasbro versions of the Combaticons and I'm very happy with them, but I will admit the set looks really good, and the Commandos do have a bit of nostalgia value for me because Ro-Tor and Movor were my first ever Decepticon toys (this was The EARLY 2000'S before I knew anything about G1, I was only familiar with Beast Wars, Beast Machines and RID 2001 at that point, so to me Decepticons were a new exciting thing). With that being said, Megatronia will probably still be the last Combiner I buy.

As for the comic, I think the twist of Galvatron being the the Car Robots Galvatron II wasn't necessary, it just screws up the continuity. However the coffee milk line on the first page did make me laugh.

Munkky wrote:As for the comic, I think the twist of Galvatron being the the Car Robots Galvatron II

That's not who Galvatron II is.

Sabrblade wrote:

Munkky wrote:As for the comic, I think the twist of Galvatron being the the Car Robots Galvatron II

That's not who Galvatron II is.

I just knew you'd post before I could so I refreshed the page first.

This is Galvatron II.

Emerje

Sabrblade wrote:

Windsweeper wrote:Love the artwork in these comics.

I like how they make RID part of G1.

Car Robots, you mean. Car Robots is part of the Japanese G1 timeline, but the English RiD version is still its own non-G1 series. The English translation just went with the English names instead (save for Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy).

Interesting how the change of language/script makes a TF show a completely different thing. Like how the Unicron Trilogy is only a Hasbro thing. In Japan, Galaxy Force (Cybertron) is it's own independent continuity and not related to SuperLink (Energon).

Dr Va'al wrote:While this may not be part of the big Roller argument of 2016, the official Twitter account for Takara Tomy Transformers is informing its Japanese customers that Unite Warriors UW-EX Baldigus / Ruination is closer to preorder than ever, with 28th November being its TakaraTomyMall date. For the rest of us, here's a pretty picture of the combined redeco of Bruticus, including gold paint and new faction symbol!

Oh man... wish I had the spare dough for that so much.

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Windsweeper wrote:Love the artwork in these comics.

I like how they make RID part of G1.

Car Robots, you mean. Car Robots is part of the Japanese G1 timeline, but the English RiD version is still its own non-G1 series. The English translation just went with the English names instead (save for Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy).

Interesting how the change of language/script makes a TF show a completely different thing. Like how the Unicron Trilogy is only a Hasbro thing. In Japan, Galaxy Force (Cybertron) is it's own independent continuity and not related to SuperLink (Energon).

Galaxy Force was initially it's own independent continuity, but then halfway through they decided to mirror what Hasbro was doing for some reason and quickly hash it into being connected to Micron Legend/Super Link.

News to me.

Sabrblade wrote:

Windsweeper wrote:Love the artwork in these comics.

I like how they make RID part of G1.

Car Robots, you mean. Car Robots is part of the Japanese G1 timeline, but the English RiD version is still its own non-G1 series. The English translation just went with the English names instead (save for Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy).

You can kinda blame FunPub for that. They put RiD in its own cluster (Viron), separate from G1 (Primax) without considering what TakaraTomy might do. It's quite possible that Takara has always considered Car Robots to be part of G1, and that their first proper reboot is Micron Legend (aka our Armada).

If that's the case, would that mean Hasbro jumped the gun?

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Windsweeper wrote:Love the artwork in these comics.

I like how they make RID part of G1.

Car Robots, you mean. Car Robots is part of the Japanese G1 timeline, but the English RiD version is still its own non-G1 series. The English translation just went with the English names instead (save for Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy).

You can kinda blame FunPub for that. They put RiD in its own cluster (Viron), separate from G1 (Primax) without considering what TakaraTomy might do. It's quite possible that Takara has always considered Car Robots to be part of G1, and that their first proper reboot is Micron Legend (aka our Armada).

If that's the case, would that mean Hasbro jumped the gun?

To be fair, it's not like it fits comfortably into G1. It takes place in 2000 even though all sources at the time indicated the G1 Season 1/2 Autobots and Decepticons should be there (it took this comic to finally give an explanation), people are shocked at the appearance of transforming robots even though they've dealt with that for the last decade and a half, it's a bit bizarre that Brave Maximus, the Commandos etc all look exactly like other characters sans colours; and in the dub especially there's characters like Optimus Prime, Prowl, Megatron and Fortress Maximus who are... well... explicitly sharing names with important characters from G1. And there's absolutely no indication in the show or whatever that this is a part of G1 at all.
It can technically work but it took a lot of later explanation; one can easily see why someone could see this as a completely new continuity. Hell, I'd argue that at the time of each show's airing, it being in the G1 timeline would be as plausible as Armada fitting into the G1 timeline.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Windsweeper wrote:Love the artwork in these comics.

I like how they make RID part of G1.

Car Robots, you mean. Car Robots is part of the Japanese G1 timeline, but the English RiD version is still its own non-G1 series. The English translation just went with the English names instead (save for Brave Maximus and Fire Convoy).

You can kinda blame FunPub for that. They put RiD in its own cluster (Viron), separate from G1 (Primax) without considering what TakaraTomy might do. It's quite possible that Takara has always considered Car Robots to be part of G1, and that their first proper reboot is Micron Legend (aka our Armada).

If that's the case, would that mean Hasbro jumped the gun?

The Viron thing came from the AllSpark Almanac II book first before Fun Pub started using the Viron term. The book was written by Jim Sorenson (and Bill Forster), who has done and still does TF work for Fun Pub. At the time that Car Robots and RiD 2001 were airing on TV, Jim was living in Japan back then (as he's mentioned to folks a few times on another board) and, according to him, the Japanese originally did not view Car Robots as part of the JG1 cartoon timeline, instead seeing it as a reboot series.

However, in my own watching of the Japanese Car Robots cartoon in recent years, I noticed that there were some elements in the cartoon's Japanese version that seemed like attempts to tie the Car Robots cartoon with the other Transformers cartoons that had come before it in Japan (such as Fire Convoy possessing an Energon Matrix like the JBW Maximal leaders, and Vector Sigma being treated as the "god" of Cybertron like in Beast Wars Neo). But, a lot of these elements were either so vague or so unexplored that I suspect many Japanese fans at the time of the show's airing didn't seem to catch on to these elements' importance, and either ignored them or just took them as fanwank nods instead of continuity points, as the Japanese fans were very much surprised to see Car Robots be considered part of the JG1 timeline, according to Jim.

When I had my big Japanese continuity talk with Hayato Sakamoto at BotCon this year I learned that he was one of the people involved with making the big JG1 cartoon timeline that officially declared Car Robots to have been part of that timeline, and when I asked him about why Car Robots had been included, one of the reasons was because of RobotMasters Wreck Hook indeed being an amnesiac Car Robots Wrecker Hook (and the RobotMasters line consisted entirely of Primax character toys, with Double Face possibly being the lone exception), and that Brave Maximus showed up in RobotMaster as well (in his having returned to Earth after the Car Robots cartoon), and that the 2004 e-HOBBY G1 GoBots set toy bio said that when the GoBots in the set came to the Transformers universe (referring the Japanese G1 universe) their technology was used to create the Spychangers (and back in 2004, the only Spychangers that existed in Japanese TF lore were the Car Robots ones).

So maybe Takara might have possibly had it in the back of their minds to make Car Robots be a Primax series all along, but because of how little obvious effort was put into their actually doing so when the show was airing in Japan, the Japanese fandom didn't see it that way and saw its later inclusion in the JG1 timeline as a retcon (so says Jim).

And because any attempts to tie Car Robots back in with its predecessors were so subtle, both Hasbro and Saban were able to completely miss or ignore Car Robots' little continuity elements entirely, and succeeded in dubbing RiD 2001 as the first rebooted non-Primax cartoon, seemingly unaware of any G1 relation the show may or may not have had in its Japanese version at the time.

Kurona wrote:To be fair, it's not like it fits comfortably into G1. It takes place in 2000 even though all sources at the time indicated the G1 Season 1/2 Autobots and Decepticons should be there (it took this comic to finally give an explanation),

The explanation for the G1 seaons 1-2 characters' absence came originally from the big JG1 timeline of 2006/2007, which used The Battle of the Star Gate manga (awesome series, btw) to explain their absence. This Baldigus comic simply reiterates it.

Kurona wrote:people are shocked at the appearance of transforming robots even though they've dealt with that for the last decade and a half,

I kinda feel a lot of this shock was mostly circumstantial. In some cases, they were shocked by there mere appearance of the robots since they simply weren't expecting to see them pop up before them. Other times, the shock came from the surprise appearances of the Destrongers, whom the humans knew to be scared of. And in some other cases, there were humans who did know of the robots, as episode 3 had some train operators immediately recognize Fire Convoy as an ally.

Kurona wrote:it's a bit bizarre that Brave Maximus, the Commandos etc all look exactly like other characters sans colours;

Not quite. As this series took place in 2000, Fortress Maximus hadn't shown up yet, and none of the Car Robots Autobots or Destrongers even knew of Brave Maximus at first (the dub changed this so that everyone instantly knew who and what RiD Fort Max was). And the Combatrons may have been redecos of the G1 Combaticons, but their cartoon models were drastically different from each other. And, since the Car Robots cast originally all came from the future, did any of them even know or know of the G1 Combaticons?

Kurona wrote:and in the dub especially there's characters like Optimus Prime, Prowl, Megatron and Fortress Maximus who are... well... explicitly sharing names with important characters from G1.

Well, that's the dub. It can get away with that by its being a non-G1 continuity.

Kurona wrote:And there's absolutely no indication in the show or whatever that this is a part of G1 at all.

Like I said to JelZe above, there were some continuity elements in the original Car Robots version, but that they were so subtle may them easy for people to overlook.

Although, ironically, the RiD dub had a ton of G1/BW/BM references in it (many more than the original Car Robots version, and far more noticeable than those in Car Robots) that were enough to send the English-speaking fandom of the time (such as those on the old alt.toys.transformers Usenet newsgroup) into a frenzy with people futilely trying to figure out how the dub could fit into G1 continuity before coming to understand how the concept of a reboot series worked.

Kurona wrote:It can technically work but it took a lot of later explanation; one can easily see why someone could see this as a completely new continuity. Hell, I'd argue that at the time of each show's airing, it being in the G1 timeline would be as plausible as Armada fitting into the G1 timeline.

I think you mean as "implausible".

At the very least, the G1 cartoon had that huge gap between 1985 and 2005 to slot things like Car Robots into. But it sure is a good thing for Car Robots' sake that its characters all ended up originating from the future, and that the later-published Battle of the Star Gate manga offered an opening for Car Robots to slip in to the timeline with little-to-no intrusion.

I actually thought there was a cast iron character connection between Car Robots/RID & G1.

The character Auggie Cahnay!!! but shot myself down as Auggie Cahnay only appears in RID & G1 (US & Jap). The 'Auggie Cahnay' character in Car Robots was actually called Goldberg

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Auggie_Cahnay_(RID)
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Auggie_Cahnay_(G1)

I know Sabr hates this theory, but its another way of looking at a joint continuity. Protoman has said that Car Robots is G1 but in the future. FAAAAAR future. So g1 happened and then after that we got Beast Wars right? In the Japanese Beast Wars show, they stay in the future (unlike Beast Wars which goes to the past) and they go to earth. So we get an idea of what future earth looks like, and its baren. It looks a lot like primitive earth. The theory is that, in a cyclicle nature, humans rose up again from this primitive future to once again become industry savy so that they can end up in a setting which looks like the year 2000 (their year 2000). Which is where Car Robots takes place. And that makes sense when you look that car robots uses both g1 and Beast Wars models, meaning that it can only take place after both exist.

william-james88 wrote:I know Sabr hates this theory, but its another way of looking at a joint continuity. Protoman has said that Car Robots is G1 but in the future. FAAAAAR future. So g1 happened and then after that we got Beast Wars right? In the Japanese Beast Wars show, they stay in the future (unlike Beast Wars which goes to the past) and they go to earth. So we get an idea of what future earth looks like, and its baren. It looks a lot like primitive earth. The theory is that, in a cyclicle nature, humans rose up again from this primitive future to once again become industry savy so that they can end up in a setting which looks like the year 2000 (their year 2000). Which is where Car Robots takes place. And that makes sense when you look that car robots uses both g1 and Beast Wars models, meaning that it can only take place after both exist.

Car Robots is stated to take place in 2000. And in this very comic it's stated to take place specifically during a time between Season 2 and the Movie where the G1 Autobots and Decepticons were damaged from fighting. So...

william-james88 wrote:I know Sabr hates this theory, but its another way of looking at a joint continuity. Protoman has said that Car Robots is G1 but in the future. FAAAAAR future. So g1 happened and then after that we got Beast Wars right? In the Japanese Beast Wars show, they stay in the future (unlike Beast Wars which goes to the past) and they go to earth. So we get an idea of what future earth looks like, and its baren. It looks a lot like primitive earth. The theory is that, in a cyclicle nature, humans rose up again from this primitive future to once again become industry savy so that they can end up in a setting which looks like the year 2000 (their year 2000). Which is where Car Robots takes place. And that makes sense when you look that car robots uses both g1 and Beast Wars models, meaning that it can only take place after both exist.

A problem with that theory is that it would put Brave Maximus being on Earth after the Angolmois energy had already been taken from it in BWII and Neo, when Brave Maximus's purpose of being on Earth in Car Robots was to protect the "Gaia energy" ("Gaia" being the name that Earth would be called in the far future). The Kiss Players Position and 15 Go! Go! fiction from 2007 would later clarify that this "Gaia energy" was indeed the Angolmois of BWII and Neo, and that Primus/Vector Sigma had placed Brave Maximus on Earth in ancient times for him to watch over the Angolmois.

With the events of Car Robots, RobotMasters, and Kiss Players/15 Go! Go! getting Brave Maximus off Earth, away from his post, that left the Angolmois no longer guarded by him and left it free for the characters of BWII and Neo to do with as they pleased before it all got taken by the Blentrons and reformed into a resurrected Unicron. With the Angolmois no longer on Gaia by that point, Car Robots taking place after BWII and Neo would thus put Brave Maximus on Earth after the stuff he was protecting in the CR cartoon wasn't there anymore.

Kurona wrote:Car Robots is stated to take place in 2000. And in this very comic it's stated to take place specifically during a time between Season 2 and the Movie where the G1 Autobots and Decepticons were damaged from fighting. So...

This is going out to everyone who reads this post: If anyone here who hasn't read the story that showed how the G1 seasons 1-2 Autobots and Decepticons got so damaged, I got links to it if ya'll wanna read it. It's an awesome story.

Sabrblade wrote:

Kurona wrote:Car Robots is stated to take place in 2000. And in this very comic it's stated to take place specifically during a time between Season 2 and the Movie where the G1 Autobots and Decepticons were damaged from fighting. So...

This is going out to everyone who reads this post: If anyone here who hasn't read the story that showed how the G1 seasons 1-2 Autobots and Decepticons got so damaged, I got links to it if ya'll wanna read it. It's an awesome story.

I'd like the link. is it prose or a comic?

Man we are getting off the path, but anyway, I just have to add my 2 cents. This is probably not right either, but I always thought that "Gaia" was earth in BWII & Neo, just in the future, specifically the "3 centuries after the great war" ended future of Beast Wars. I thought it was odd that during the BW series, any ship that comes near Earth instantly gets time warped back to 2MYA Earth, and all communication occurs between *Current* Cybertron and 2MYA Earth. Current Earth is (for unexplained reasons) forbidden, so that's why in my mind BWII & Neo would fit the bill perfectly. I always saw CR as the very first departure from the main continuity (ala G Gundam in the Gundam Universe). The fact that in Japan it was retconned into the original series is something I choose not to recognize. Also I don't see how/why in Japan it was decided that Galaxy Force be shoehorned in to the faux "Unicron Trilogy" ala Hasbro. There is really nothing that connects it to the previous two series. They even omitted the scenes of older versions of Rad, Alexis, Kicker (Energon Hotshot LOL) etc... that Hasbro used in the final episode as a lame attempt to tie them together.

But basically, tying this back to UW, it comes down to what is easily recognizable. Nobody argues who Armada Thrust, Prime Breakdown, or Ghost Starscream are, because there are no other characters like them, there is no debate. Many fans like myself, who rely mostly on animated series for continuity will recognize Roller as the drone from the original animated series, whereas fans who are vested deeply in IDW will recognize him from that. I just think it was a poor choice all around, as it is the only character in this series that causes such a division among the fans because of his ambiguity.

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Kurona wrote:Car Robots is stated to take place in 2000. And in this very comic it's stated to take place specifically during a time between Season 2 and the Movie where the G1 Autobots and Decepticons were damaged from fighting. So...

This is going out to everyone who reads this post: If anyone here who hasn't read the story that showed how the G1 seasons 1-2 Autobots and Decepticons got so damaged, I got links to it if ya'll wanna read it. It's an awesome story.

I'd like the link. is it prose or a comic?

Four Japanese comic issues, read right-to-left, translated into English by Andrew "Hydra" Hall. Officially titled "Transformers: The Battle of Star Gate", but titled by Hydra in the translation as "Transformers: The Stargate Battles" (as the translation was done before the official English title was made known). The translation uses the Japanese names an terminology, but not intrusively. The story is set in the latter 1990s.

Chapter 1 - "First Contact"
Chapter 2 - "Divided Views"
Chapter 3 - "Activation"
Chapter 4 - "The Battle of the Star Gate" (or "The Stargate Battles", as this translation titles it)

Personally, I feel this story is as every bit of awesome as the Combiner Wars cartoon wanted to be but utterly failed to be.

o.supreme wrote:But basically, tying this back to UW, it comes down to what is easily recognizable. Nobody argues who Armada Thrust, Prime Breakdown, or Ghost Starscream are, because there are no other characters like them, there is no debate. Many fans like myself, who rely mostly on animated series for continuity will recognize Roller as the drone from the original animated series, whereas fans who are vested deeply in IDW will recognize him from that. I just think it was a poor choice all around, as it is the only character in this series that causes such a division among the fans because of his ambiguity.

But G1 Roller and IDW Roller don't have anything in common beyond name and original allegiance? Hell, you can't even say they're both sentient! Which... actually kind of makes me question the whole idea behind the theory of this being Drone Roller. The clue's in the name; drone. He wasn't sentient. Didn't have feelings. Even if Optimus left him behind he couldn't feel anything about it more than a ham sandwich. What exactly is the evidence for this being Drone Roller again because the more I think about it the more I'm confused why people think it is at all
And I don't think it's a bad choice at all; it's pretty awesome that a more obscure character gets attention in a toyline. If that sort of thing didn't happen we wouldn't be getting the sheer awesomeness of TR Triggerhappy or the adorable Titan Master Shuffler.

Kurona wrote:If that sort of thing didn't happen we wouldn't be getting the sheer awesomeness of TR Triggerhappy

He wasn't that obscure, he at least appeared in The Rebirth

Kurona wrote:or the adorable Titan Master Shuffler.

who??

In any case...we have to acknowledge there is a large percentage of the fan base that have never read IDW. I didn't even know IDW comics were printed in Japan until recently, and from what I've been told they are far behind, and I can't imagine a large % of Japanese Transformers fans investing in them. I'm just trying to appeal to common sense. To *most* fans if you just hear the name "Roller" who do you think of? ---Honestly.

Again, I'm not saying Wandering Roller isn't IDW Roller, but how can most fans know about a character they don't even know exists? We've become accustomed to seeing new versions of various characters. Heck when I got this set, my 10 year old son asked the question why would "Roller" turn evil? He's never read an IDW comic in his life, so you know who he's thinking of.

o.supreme wrote:

Kurona wrote:If that sort of thing didn't happen we wouldn't be getting the sheer awesomeness of TR Triggerhappy

He wasn't that obscure, he at least appeared in The Rebirth

Kurona wrote:or the adorable Titan Master Shuffler.

who??

In any case...we have to acknowledge there is a large percentage of the fan base that have never read IDW. I didn't even know IDW comics were printed in Japan until recently, and from what I've been told they are far behind, and I can't imagine a large % of Japanese Transformers fans investing in them. I'm just trying to appeal to common sense. To *most* fans if you just hear the name "Roller" who do you think of? ---Honestly.

Again, I'm not saying Wandering Roller isn't IDW Roller, but how can most fans know about a character they don't even know exists? We've become accustomed to seeing new versions of various characters. Heck when I got this set, my 10 year old son asked the question why would "Roller" turn evil? He's never read an IDW comic in his life, so you know who he's thinking of.

Right, but, I don't know why obscurity is evidence? It certainly means it's odd when something like this happens, but again, that's awesome; that something so obscure is recognised and paid homage to in toy form rather than sticking to your 1984-86 guns all the time. It's cool.

Case in point, shuffler is this little dude that's in Titan Master Wave 4.



He's based on this character.
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Shuffler
A japanese-only toy from 1987 with no fictional appearances bar a TV Magazine cameo and a mention in an Ask Vector Prime post almost 3 decades after his release. By a long shot more obscure than IDW Roller, and everything you're saying about IDW Roller's obscurity applies to this guy... but he's happening anyway.
Which I love.
Because he's adorable.
And I love him.


Also Triggerhappy did appear in Rebirth but he might as well just have been a background character; I can't remember if he even got his name called out more than once. They were shoving in a ridiculous amount of characters into that 3-parter for obvious and unfortunate reasons and only the Headmaster characters really got to stand out; the rest were left for obscurity. A lot of people could tell you who Skullcruncher and Hardhead are without having ever heard of any of the Targetmasters beyond the repackaged 1986 characters.

o.supreme wrote:Man we are getting off the path, but anyway, I just have to add my 2 cents. This is probably not right either, but I always thought that "Gaia" was earth in BWII & Neo, just in the future, specifically the "3 centuries after the great war" ended future of Beast Wars.

A lot of the fandom thought that back in the day. The reason being was a short story printed in a catalog that accompanied the Japanese BWII toys that had Lio Convoy and Galvatron as contemporaries of Optimus Primal and Megatron. The BWII manga likewise had this be so as well. Even Hasbro at the time seemed to believe this as well (from what little they seemed to know about the two JBW series at all), as they put references to BWII and Neo in their toy bios of Transmetal 2 Cybershark and Dinobots Magmatron. But, the BWII cartoon itself, however, wouldn't give a placement to its future setting until all the way into its 36th episode, in which it established that Gaia's inhabitants left the planet tens of thousands of years before the timeperiod of BWII. The English-speaking fandom didn't know this at the time simply due to the BWII cartoon's lack of accessibility to the Western World for the longest time. That's why, when the big JG1 timeline placed BWII and Neo so far after BW and BM, the Western fandom thought it had been a retcon. The catalog story had been held as gospel and, having no access to the full cartoon, its validity was never questioned or doubted by the Western World.

But, this would explain why, when Optimus Primal appeared in the BWII movie, Lio Convoy's team revered him as some great figure of legend rather than their contemporary. Back when the fandom thought otherwise, though, this reverence was mistaken by the West as being part of another longstanding misconception about the Japanese Beast Wars dub having treating Optimus Primal as the same guy as G1 Optimus Prime (and BW Megatron as G1 Megatron). But such was never the actual case in the Japanese dub, as Beast Wars Metals (the Japanese dub of BW seasons 2-3) maintained the English version's depiction of the Ark-bound G1 Optimus and Megatron as the ancestors of the Maximal and Predacon leaders.

o.supreme wrote:Also I don't see how/why in Japan it was decided that Galaxy Force be shoehorned in to the faux "Unicron Trilogy" ala Hasbro.

Cybertron/Galaxy Force was always supposed to be another sequel (it was, after all, Aaron Archer of Hasbro, rather than Takara, who first conceived the series). Either Takara or Gonzo either didn't get that memo or chose to ignore it and made Galaxy Force be another reboot. And yet, the original Galaxy Force version still somehow had all of the following things from Armada/Energon in it:

Armada Unicron's debris


Energon Alexis


Armada Mini-Con seen on a mural on Gigantion


Among others.

o.supreme wrote:There is really nothing that connects it to the previous two series. They even omitted the scenes of older versions of Rad, Alexis, Kicker (Energon Hotshot LOL) etc... that Hasbro used in the final episode as a lame attempt to tie them together.

Galaxy Force didn't "omit" those. They were newly-created for Cybertron after the Galaxy Force version had already been completed.

Hasbro's efforts were their attempt to try and steer things back on course with how the show was original conceived to be. And afterward, even Takara finally got onboard with Hasbro's vision as they now consider the Galaxy Force version to be another sequel as well (continuity issues be darned).

I've actually had the BWII & Neo series on VHS since shortly after they were released in Japan, but just recently got the fan subbed version of BWII so yes that did provide a new understanding. Yeah I never quite got the reverence for BW Primal in the movie, but it makes sense as a figure of legend. Still in my head it makes more sense for them to be contemporaries. The theory I had for the longest time was that when Magnaboss called Oprimus Primal into the BWII appearance in that animated film, this is where he was in-between S1 & S2 of BW when his Stasis pod exploded.

Kurona wrote:The clue's in the name; drone. He wasn't sentient. Didn't have feelings. Even if Optimus left him behind he couldn't feel anything about it more than a ham sandwich.

My roomba just told me it finds these comments deeply offensive

o.supreme wrote:The theory I had for the longest time was that when Magnaboss called Oprimus Primal into the BWII appearance in that animated film, this is where he was in-between S1 & S2 of BW when his Stasis pod exploded.

That was indeed the most widespread fan theory of the time, what with the movie being released in Japan between their dubs of season 1 and season 2. As Japan would not yet get season 2 until after BWNeo, the movie was the very next time Japan saw Primal in anything after his demise at the end of season 1. I recall several (unofficial) websites back in the day even claiming that Primal's appearance in the movie being chronologically set between season 1-2 of BW as a truthful fact.

Alas, though, I don't believe we've ever had an official statement on from what point in time Primal was brought to Gaia in the future. In the movie, Primal only vaguely alludes to his having to "return" to "Energoa" (which was what Prehistoric Earth was called in the Japanese dub of BW season 1 before the planet was revealed to be Earth in season 2), so we at least know that he was pulled from some point set during BW season 1.

Although, seeing as how Primal seemed to be familiar with Lio Convoy in the movie, perhaps whatever point in time Primal was taken from came after Primal had already partaken in the events of RobotMasters, in which he also teamed up with Lio Convoy. Maybe he first got to meet Lio Convoy then, and then got sent back to BW season 1 after RobotMasters was over, and then got sent to and from Gaia in the future at another later point in season 1.

But could your Roomba survive a cave-in and an exploding bomb .

o.supreme wrote:But could your Roomba survive a cave-in and an exploding bomb .

lets find out!

Here's what I'm thinking. This is Japan where there's a long standing belief that if something is left alone for too long unused (a sword, a tool, an umbrella) it'll gain sentience and become resentful of its owner. Maybe if a Cybertronian drone is abandoned something similar can happen?

Or maybe he was struck by lightning and glitched out like Johnny 5.

Emerje

Despite what you all may think, Japan does have access US material like the IDW comics, the same way we have access to their anime and manga: via import shops and the internet. As such, TakaraTomy can and will make references to foreign material, the same way Hasbro has done with Overlord, Black Shadow, Star Saber, Lio Convoy, just to name a few (TM2 Cybershark's bio even slyly refers to the BWII Seacon Space Pirates, so it's nothing recent either). In fact, an IDW comic-only character actually made it into a Japanese toy line:



I give you G1 Grindcore, created by Furman liking the name of the Movie toy released earlier. He never got a toy in the US, but Japan did, as United EX Tankmaster:



That said, Wandering Roller being a version of IDW Roller is near certain. Backstory checks out, looks check out, being a friend of Orion Pax before the war checks out. And Unicron said it himself he has access to all kinds of universes from which to pluck his soldiers.

That's all I'm gonna say.

^To be fair, the Tankmaster toy being a JG1 cartoon version of IDW Grindcore was all Andrew Hall's doing. He's the one who came up with the secret identities for each of the United EX figures, whose decos and "-master" names had already been preset by Takara before he got to writing their bios and on-package fiction.

'Course, he also made Rollermaster into Marvel G1 Straxus having survived his U.S. death, from which he got sent to the JG1 cartoon universe and would later go on to appear in more JG1 fiction like the two Metrowars manga issues and the Convobat preview comic.

Talking of Japan using obscure american-only characters; even beyond his toy release, they REALLY like using Straxus. They've used him a ton of times and he's even appeared recently in the E-hobby Bat Primal comic. And then this very comic even just had Galvatron II!
So... this really isn't a new thing. Much in the same way we've been appropriating Japan's characters and stories for english-language fiction and toys (Platinum Liokaiser, Lio Convoy in BWU; Overlord, Black Shadow, the entire crew of Deathsaurus' ship and a ton of others in IDW), the reverse is true as well. And then you've actually got things like Japanese fans importing america-exclusive toys and decos like Alpha Bravo and the G2 sets (yes, this does actually happen).
A lot of people seem to have this idea or notion that it's a one-way street; that american fans know all about Japan's fiction and characters and import our toys while they don't think Japan does the same - or, at least, don't think about it. But nah, our fellow fans in Japan are just like us

Just read The Battle of the Star Gate I liked the use of the characters but ultimately didn't enjoy it.

I also read up on the return of Prowl & Wheeljack and I have to say what a blooming mess that was to read Prowl II, Prowl 2, Bineltech Prowl (both Bineltech timelines).Talk about making a simple thing like bringing characters back to life overly complex.

Coptur wrote:I also read up on the return of Prowl & Wheeljack and I have to say what a blooming mess that was to read Prowl II, Prowl 2, Bineltech Prowl (both Bineltech timelines).Talk about making a simple thing like bringing characters back to life overly complex.

You can blame the Beast Wars Sourcebook's profile from Transmetal 2 Prowl for all that. At the time that profile was written, the Binaltech story wasn't done yet and the Sourcebook went and took inspiration from the then-incomplete Binaltech story, only for what the Sourcebook did to be undone by the Binaltech story when it resumed, thereby making what the Sourcebook wrote no longer make any sense.

It took the Ask Vector Prime Facebook from years later to finally fix the mess with input from Hirofumi Ichikawa, but did so by having to jump through several hoops to fix it because of how messy it was in the first place. Had the Sourcebook originally left alone the then-still-in-progress Binaltech story, then such complications on the "Prowl II" matter wouldn't have arisen.

tl;dr of this thread:

Continuity is a headache, at least when you're going back and working with old fiction and also working around previous tie-ins with the same old fiction.

Sabrblade wrote:

You can blame the Beast Wars Sourcebook's profile from Transmetal 2 Prowl for all that. At the time that profile was written, the Binaltech story wasn't done yet and the Sourcebook went and took inspiration from the then-incomplete Binaltech story, only for what the Sourcebook did to be undone by the Binaltech story when it resumed, thereby making what the Sourcebook wrote no longer make any sense.

It took the Ask Vector Prime Facebook from years later to finally fix the mess with input from Hirofumi Ichikawa, but did so by having to jump through several hoops to fix it because of how messy it was in the first place. Had the Sourcebook originally left alone the then-still-in-progress Binaltech story, then such complications on the "Prowl II" matter wouldn't have arisen.[/quote][/quote]

Well that's a good real world reason Hirofumi Ichikawa must of read the profile and thought 'oh bother me'

ok at the time of writing this i haven't re-read the BW Prowl II & BW Prowl sourcebook profiles.

If the Bineltech Prowl (whom replaces G1 Prowl in 2010) is Prowl II/2 and that Prowl years later becomes Magnaboss Prowl then how do we get Prowl II(who in turn becomes Prowl 2 in the Car Robots furture) and Magnaboss Prowl at the sametime...

ok this needs a spreadsheet and lots of chocolate....and some crisps/chips


EDIT
Just this from Vector Prime over on facebook and it has settled my fried mind.

Dear Vector Prime
Q:Would you mind clarifying the enigma behind the identity of Prowl II from Beast Wars? And what about the Spy Changer Prowl 2 from Robots in Disguise?

A: Dear Prowl Parson,
Both can trace their origins to the Temporal Nexus that is the Binaltech Project. You have perhaps witnessed many of these events in the BT World timeline preserved through the actions of the Alternity. Following the death of Prowl in the OG World, Prowl and Wheeljack crossed back to their original timeline, before the Trial of Primacron. Wheeljack, still wary after the death of their OG World doppelgängers, had brought Prowl's Beta BT unit with them. They eventually transferred their sparks to OG World bodies, leaving their BT bodies in cold storage.

The Prowl II in many Primax-reality iterations of the Beast Wars was created from Prowl's Alpha BT unit. Early in its history, it housed Chip Chase's life essence and Prowl's datatrax. (Come to think of it, this is not at all dissimilar to the process employed by the Protectons and Terrakors on Skalorr.) Thus, when Professor Chase fell very ill, Wheeljack suggested another consciousness transfer. Very curious that our sparks and your... élan vital? Animus? ...are so compatible. It was an experimental procedure, and did not work perfectly. Some memories were lost, and consciousness could not be restored. The body was put into stasis, and eventually upgraded with Maximal technology in the hopes of saving the being--or is it beings?--within. It was a partial success. Prowl II was once again among the living.

Prowl 2, on the other hand, was created from the Beta BT unit, a striking electric blue body created as a BT backup for Prowl but never used. Like the primary unit, it was programmed with Prowl's memory engrams and personality. For hundreds of centuries it was locked away, forgotten. It was rediscovered when Fire Convoy was undertaking preparations to travel to the year 2000 in pursuit of the Destrongers, at the behest of the Convoy Council. The memories contained within the shell were invaluable, and so the body was rebuilt using Spychanger technology and infused with life by Vector Sigma. Prowl 2 taught the Dimensional Patrol much about life on late 20th century Earth, and volunteered to return with Fire Convoy's team... but Heinrad cautioned that the risk of a temporal paradox was too great. Thus was he fated to remain in the distant future, anxiously awaiting word from his new companions about the attempt to safeguard Earth's past.

Coptur wrote:Dear Vector Prime
Q:Would you mind clarifying the enigma behind the identity of Prowl II from Beast Wars? And what about the Spy Changer Prowl 2 from Robots in Disguise?

A: Dear Prowl Parson,
Both can trace their origins to the Temporal Nexus that is the Binaltech Project. You have perhaps witnessed many of these events in the BT World timeline preserved through the actions of the Alternity. Following the death of Prowl in the OG World, Prowl and Wheeljack crossed back to their original timeline, before the Trial of Primacron.

This first part refers to the events of the manga story titled "Controverse", in which we see the Wheeljack and Prowl (not "Prowl II", just "Prowl") of the Binaltech timeline crossover to the main JG1 cartoon timeline to get some medical supplies, but then are unable to return to their own timeline due to something keeping them out from the Binaltech timeline (this "something" would be revealed in the Alternity fiction to be a quadrant lock placed upon the BT World by the Quintessons). Since the two couldn't get back to their own timeline, the two resorted to stay in the main timeline and switched out their Binaltech bodies for new bodies based on their pre-Binaltech bodies (their G1 cartoon Earth bodies).

The rest of the information below is all new info.

Coptur wrote:Wheeljack, still wary after the death of their OG World doppelgängers, had brought Prowl's Beta BT unit with them.

By which they mean the blue, non-police car Binaltech Prowl toy body.

Coptur wrote:They eventually transferred their sparks to OG World bodies,

Another reference to "Controverse".

Coptur wrote:leaving their BT bodies in cold storage.

More new info.

Coptur wrote:The Prowl II in many Primax-reality iterations of the Beast Wars was created from Prowl's Alpha BT unit.

Referring to the normal Binaltech Prowl toy body, which was just mentioned as having been put into storage after Prowl and Wheeljack switched out of their BT bodies into G1 bodies.

Coptur wrote:Early in its history, it housed Chip Chase's life essence and Prowl's datatrax.

A reference to the events of the Binaltech storyline in which Chip temporarily became Prowl whilst the real Prowl's spark was MIA. When Prowl's spark was found, Chip stepped down from being the replacement Prowl to let the real Prowl resume his own identity.

Coptur wrote:Thus, when Professor Chase fell very ill, Wheeljack suggested another consciousness transfer. Very curious that our sparks and your... élan vital? Animus? ...are so compatible. It was an experimental procedure, and did not work perfectly. Some memories were lost, and consciousness could not be restored. The body was put into stasis, and eventually upgraded with Maximal technology in the hopes of saving the being--or is it beings?--within. It was a partial success. Prowl II was once again among the living.

An origin story for the Beast Wars Transmetal 2 Prowl, dubbed "Prowl II" by the Beast Wars Sourcebook.

Coptur wrote:Prowl 2, on the other hand, was created from the Beta BT unit, a striking electric blue body created as a BT backup for Prowl but never used. Like the primary unit, it was programmed with Prowl's memory engrams and personality. For hundreds of centuries it was locked away, forgotten. It was rediscovered when Fire Convoy was undertaking preparations to travel to the year 2000 in pursuit of the Destrongers, at the behest of the Convoy Council. The memories contained within the shell were invaluable, and so the body was rebuilt using Spychanger technology and infused with life by Vector Sigma. Prowl 2 taught the Dimensional Patrol much about life on late 20th century Earth, and volunteered to return with Fire Convoy's team... but Heinrad cautioned that the risk of a temporal paradox was too great. Thus was he fated to remain in the distant future, anxiously awaiting word from his new companions about the attempt to safeguard Earth's past.

Another origin story, this time for the Robots in Disguise 2001 Spychanger "Prowl 2", but set in a JG1-style Car Robots-based setting.