Hasbro wins legal battle against bootlegs in China

This reminds me of those photos where a bunch of cops are posing around a table with a hash pipe and a few grams of pot like they just won the war on drugs.
They'll never stop bootlegs from being made and sold; they're probably just salty cause most bootleggers make cheaper, better quality versions of their products than they do.

I have mixed feelings on this.

I rejoice because we may finally see a stop to all those "reissues" that try to pass as legit on Ebay. Anime figures are plagued by this as well.

I find it sad because it will put an end to all those ultra modified and improved KOs such as the Wei Jiang ones.

And I fear that the entire 3P industry, who have their own molds and own designs, may get hit next.

The only way to win a “war” on KO makers, is for hastak to not be so greedy with their prices. They’ll win a few battles, and take a few players off the board, but as long as they are pricing the average collector out of the market, or not providing what is wanted, another company will always come and fill the vacancy.

-Kanrabat- wrote:I have mixed feelings on this.

I rejoice because we may finally see a stop to all those "reissues" that try to pass as legit on Ebay. Anime figures are plagued by this as well.

I find it sad because it will put an end to all those ultra modified and improved KOs such as the Wei Jiang ones.

And I fear that the entire 3P industry, who have their own molds and own designs, may get hit next.

It’s bound happen sooner or later companies make there own figures are targeted to be knock off figure

@Ironhideish the only way to get hasbro to stop being greedy is if Shareholders do something but considering they are the ones who are the constant drive for profit...We're never going to get to that point.

Remember this news is only affecting KOs who are deliberately using trademarks, 3P are unaffected by this and will continue to do so. In essence the 3p biggest threat isn't hasbro anyway, but other 3p companies and companies who make kos of their products.

Ironhidensh wrote:The only way to win a “war” on KO makers, is for hastak to not be so greedy with their prices. They’ll win a few battles, and take a few players off the board, but as long as they are pricing the average collector out of the market, or not providing what is wanted, another company will always come and fill the vacancy.

Agreed, I don't think there's a huge problem with 3p companies, so long as they aren't really stepping on has/tak's feet. I think the only one that's really taken the hint and tried to really do their own thing is mmc; they've gotten away from the mainstream stuff and gotten into the idw and comic stuff the we know hasbro isn't going to give us anytime soon.

I think the prime trilogy really sucked the wind out of the 3p sails, and it shows, especially with the very affordable combiners and then the headmasters - the two bigger areas that 3p companies were really trying to fill. Now a lot of them don't really seem to know what to do, based on pre-orders, it seems like they've gone back to circle-jerking mp's and combiners like they can't get the hint

I think the only one that's really going to take a hit are the one's making actual knock-off tf's

ZeroWolf wrote:@Ironhideish the only way to get hasbro to stop being greedy is if Shareholders do something but considering they are the ones who are the constant drive for profit...We're never going to get to that point.

Remember this news is only affecting KOs who are deliberately using trademarks, 3P are unaffected by this and will continue to do so. In essence the 3p biggest threat isn't hasbro anyway, but other 3p companies and companies who make kos of their products.

Yeah, this is more to do with stuff that outright copies Hasbro's own products. Especially things like the high-end counterfeit G1s that were obviously made with the intent of passing themselves off as the genuine article. Nowadays those are generally labeled as "reissues" and priced substantially lower than authentic MISB G1s, but that wasn't always the case.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Yeah, this is more to do with stuff that outright copies Hasbro's own products. Especially things like the high-end counterfeit G1s that were obviously made with the intent of passing themselves off as the genuine article.

I got screwed over with a G1 Shockwave "reissue". I paid 100$ for it. I managed to sell it off for 50$ last year.

Then I got screwed with a G1 Grimlock "reissue". I paid 70$ for it. The bot ASSPLODED in my hands the 4th time I transformed him. I used the parts for customs and I used the accessories to complete a 60$ naked but great condition authentic G1 Grimlock bought at my local geek shop.

Those G1 and MP KOs that pass as legit need to be killed with FIRE.
Now if only Ebay would get their shit together and allow us to filter out all search results from China, it would make things easier.

ZeroWolf wrote:Remember this news is only affecting KOs who are deliberately using trademarks, 3P are unaffected by this and will continue to do so.

That's good to know because I'm very close to finishing my Combiner Wars collection & my plan is to drop Hasbro/Takara & move to 3rd party. Hasbro has made collecting their products a total nightmare. Collecting the Prime Wars Trilogy has been so freakin difficult. Horrible distribution, even worse QC problems, too many exclusives, ridiculous ebay prices & the whole Quickslinger/Alpha Bravo Break-Neck/
Off-Road stupidity. Also the tiny combiner feet & ridiculously huge Devastator & Predaking that don't fit with the rest of the collection. And they don't bother making characters they should like combiner limbs of Sideswipe, Hoist, Red Alert, Tracks or Grapple. And the Botcon & collector club combiners that nobody can ****ing afford.

Looking back at the Prime Wars Trilogy I'm questioning my sanity for trying to collect it. No more Hasbro or Takara for me. F*** that S#!t!

News flash: The 3P stuff isn't going to be any nicer to your wallet than official TFs. A lot of it is in fact going to be pricier. Yes, even compared to some of the bonkers eBay prices.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:News flash: The 3P stuff isn't going to be any nicer to your wallet than official TFs. A lot of it is in fact going to be pricier. Yes, even compared to some of the bonkers eBay prices.

False. That may have been true at the beginning, but Takara has raised their prices substantially, while the 3rd party market has stayed level. At least on the Masterpiece end, which is what I collect.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:News flash: The 3P stuff isn't going to be any nicer to your wallet than official TFs. A lot of it is in fact going to be pricier. Yes, even compared to some of the bonkers eBay prices.

Any 3P collectors are already aware of this. The real complains from the "cheap" collectors are for the MP KO's that were an alternative to HasTak's. Especially now that MP prices are going through the roof.
Dat 600$ Optimus...

-Kanrabat- wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:News flash: The 3P stuff isn't going to be any nicer to your wallet than official TFs. A lot of it is in fact going to be pricier. Yes, even compared to some of the bonkers eBay prices.

Any 3P collectors are already aware of this. The real complains from the "cheap" collectors are for the MP KO's that were an alternative to HasTak's. Especially now that MP prices are going through the roof.
Dat 600$ Optimus...

It will interesting to see how well that sells, and what production run it has.

ZeroWolf wrote:

-Kanrabat- wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:News flash: The 3P stuff isn't going to be any nicer to your wallet than official TFs. A lot of it is in fact going to be pricier. Yes, even compared to some of the bonkers eBay prices.

Any 3P collectors are already aware of this. The real complains from the "cheap" collectors are for the MP KO's that were an alternative to HasTak's. Especially now that MP prices are going through the roof.
Dat 600$ Optimus...

It will interesting to see how well that sells, and what production run it has.

Yes. It has a lot of preorders, but they are all in paid. I'll be very interested in seeing how many people actually go through with it come next August.

Ironhidensh wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:News flash: The 3P stuff isn't going to be any nicer to your wallet than official TFs. A lot of it is in fact going to be pricier. Yes, even compared to some of the bonkers eBay prices.

False. That may have been true at the beginning, but Takara has raised their prices substantially, while the 3rd party market has stayed level. At least on the Masterpiece end, which is what I collect.

I'm talking more pseudo-Classics stuff.

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:News flash: The 3P stuff isn't going to be any nicer to your wallet than official TFs. A lot of it is in fact going to be pricier. Yes, even compared to some of the bonkers eBay prices.

False. That may have been true at the beginning, but Takara has raised their prices substantially, while the 3rd party market has stayed level. At least on the Masterpiece end, which is what I collect.

I'm talking more pseudo-Classics stuff.

Those are priced pretty high too.
Only the naive noob will think he will save money by going 3P for the more "standard" transforming robots.
However, it will ironically be true for the MP scene soon enough.

While I respect hasbro protecting its ip, I feel like this is only happening in response to the backlash on their ever increasing pricing. It seems they saw the writing on the wall that people were looking for an alternative, especially now that recent releases like dinobot, bw Megatron and prime 3.0 are so expensive. I limited my collection to MP only but I can't justify their prices anymore, especially considering the qc issues that seem to plague the MP line. My ko Megatron is better quality than my official release, which broke on his first transformation (which is why I got a ko. Why spend another 200+ on him after the first one broke?). Rodimus lost an arm by simply rotating it. Soundwave reissue had cassette door that won't close all the way. TRU starsscream had stress marks all over fresh out of the box.

These hurt, but imagine getting prime 3.0 and having something like this happen. At his price it's unimaginable. So I also understand the ko market. I feel like it only grew as a response to demand.much like the 3rd party market, which is where my money will go from now on. My fans toys have all been perfect out of the box with better construction. Only their version of arcee was missing an alternate face, and they sent it to me immediately whereas getting a response from hastak is next to impossible.

If hasbro really wants to win the war on ip infringement, they need to realize $20 deluxes and $400-600 mps are gonna hurt their margins. I don't buy any standard releases anymore because they've gotten so expensive I feel like the money should be saved towards a masterpiece. But then I see the current prices and either go 3rd party or just don't buy anything because I can't justify it.

Also, regarding the argument that 3rd party is not cheaper, there is already a 3rd party anime version Optimus coming out that while not as impressive as 3.0 still looks great and has a price tag under $200. Fans toys dinobot are also $200,huge, have die cast and great joints, and lots of accessories. If hastak released one of them exactly the same, they would charge as much if not more than prime 3.0 due to size and construction.

The moment they start cracking down on Third Party for good is the moment, I think, Hasbro will start imploding at least in the eyes of the long term and adult collectors. Also that part about banning fanart: what the flying fuck was that about? Is Hasbro this horribly protective of its IP?

Aimless Misfire wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:Remember this news is only affecting KOs who are deliberately using trademarks, 3P are unaffected by this and will continue to do so.

That's good to know because I'm very close to finishing my Combiner Wars collection & my plan is to drop Hasbro/Takara & move to 3rd party. Hasbro has made collecting their products a total nightmare. Collecting the Prime Wars Trilogy has been so freakin difficult. Horrible distribution, even worse QC problems, too many exclusives, ridiculous ebay prices & the whole Quickslinger/Alpha Bravo Break-Neck/
Off-Road stupidity. Also the tiny combiner feet & ridiculously huge Devastator & Predaking that don't fit with the rest of the collection. And they don't bother making characters they should like combiner limbs of Sideswipe, Hoist, Red Alert, Tracks or Grapple. And the Botcon & collector club combiners that nobody can ****ing afford.

Looking back at the Prime Wars Trilogy I'm questioning my sanity for trying to collect it. No more Hasbro or Takara for me. F*** that S#!t!

So this is coming from someone who’s known for jumping message boards throwing hissy fits on the price of stuff but admits spending hundreds of dollars on 3rd parties?

Got it.

and that is without taking in account that official hasbro figures are 2 or 3 times as expensive in all southamerica, some parts of europe and also many parts of asia...
understand that as long as their prices are so high people will keep buying knockoffs thus perpetuating that industry

also then there are the insane mp prices for figures that are not that better in quality or complexity or paint or details than regular figures of the same "size"

Welp, this thread is turning into a whirlpool that'll suck down most of the attention in the toys discussion forum for the next two weeks

Considering the history of such topics, I think this thread is being remarkably civil.

Ironhidensh wrote:Considering the history of such topics, I think this thread is being remarkably civil.

Well yeah, it's not full of people chanting "Hasbro is the devil" and worse like I sometimes see. But it still seems to be hoovering up people's attention big-time

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:Considering the history of such topics, I think this thread is being remarkably civil.

Well yeah, it's not full of people chanting "Hasbro is the devil" and worse like I sometimes see. But it still seems to be hoovering up people's attention big-time

No wonder because the KO and 3P scene is a pretty big part of the TF fandom.

ZeroWolf wrote:@Ironhideish the only way to get hasbro to stop being greedy is if Shareholders do something but considering they are the ones who are the constant drive for profit...We're never going to get to that point.

Remember this news is only affecting KOs who are deliberately using trademarks, 3P are unaffected by this and will continue to do so. In essence the 3p biggest threat isn't hasbro anyway, but other 3p companies and companies who make kos of their products.

I wouldn't be so sure, it's highly likely they will go after them if they find a reason to. Because let's face it 3rd party and knock off are in the same category and there is a thin line between the two, at heart (I mean they are sold in the same area online ect.) but the law is where it matters. But the law can be twisted. And changed.

Well yes, but Fansproject, MakeToys, etc. don't copy Hasbro's products piece for piece, or put them in packaging that outright says "Transformers" on it. Hasbro does have to take an occasional swing at the people who go that far in order to retain their IP rights.

CdogCdog4 wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:@Ironhideish the only way to get hasbro to stop being greedy is if Shareholders do something but considering they are the ones who are the constant drive for profit...We're never going to get to that point.

Remember this news is only affecting KOs who are deliberately using trademarks, 3P are unaffected by this and will continue to do so. In essence the 3p biggest threat isn't hasbro anyway, but other 3p companies and companies who make kos of their products.

I wouldn't be so sure, it's highly likely they will go after them if they find a reason to. Because let's face it 3rd party and knock off are in the same category and there is a thin line between the two, at heart (I mean they are sold in the same area online ect.) but the law is where it matters. But the law can be twisted. And changed.

3rd Parties may not copy Hasbro toys, but they are using their characters' likenesses for their own profit. You can make a Spider-man toy, call him something different put him in his own unique packaging but you aren't really going to fool anyone. After the KO's the third parties will be targeted.

leokearon wrote:

CdogCdog4 wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:@Ironhideish the only way to get hasbro to stop being greedy is if Shareholders do something but considering they are the ones who are the constant drive for profit...We're never going to get to that point.

Remember this news is only affecting KOs who are deliberately using trademarks, 3P are unaffected by this and will continue to do so. In essence the 3p biggest threat isn't hasbro anyway, but other 3p companies and companies who make kos of their products.

I wouldn't be so sure, it's highly likely they will go after them if they find a reason to. Because let's face it 3rd party and knock off are in the same category and there is a thin line between the two, at heart (I mean they are sold in the same area online ect.) but the law is where it matters. But the law can be twisted. And changed.

3rd Parties may not copy Hasbro toys, but they are using their characters' likenesses for their own profit. You can make a Spider-man toy, call him something different put him in his own unique packaging but you aren't really going to fool anyone. After the KO's the third parties will be targeted.

Doubtful. Hasbro would loose more money fighting it in court, than they stood to gain.

This has NOTHING to do with rising prices and is most definitely NOT in relation to the recent increase in MP prices. Why? Because this case has been around for a while, LONG BEFORE the likes of the new Optimus was announced.

Hasbro (not TakaraTomy) have been working on this for years, legal action no doubt began when the first "G1 reissues" started to hit the market.

This isn't about price, this is about protecting their property, and in a way, their consumers who do NOT want to be ripped off by non-genuine products which are often of poorer quality (as the early "G1 reissues" were.

Burn wrote:This isn't about price, this is about protecting their property, and in a way, their consumers who do NOT want to be ripped off by non-genuine products which are often of poorer quality (as the early "G1 reissues" were.

This need to be expanded to anime figures as well. But clearing out all those damn "reissues" is one big step in the right direction.

Wireless_Phantom wrote:I'm of two minds about this issue. I'm glad Hasbro is taking out some of these companies, but at the same time some vintage figures that KO companies were making versions of probably won't ever be remade now (things like G1 Swoop, where the original mold was lost)

Well, if all the recent reissues and the poll are anything to judge by, hasbro clearly knows this market exists and is likely in the process of expanding on it

Yeah, actual 1:1 KOs are what's being targeted here. I don't think Hasbro would stand a chance of getting "original" 3Ps being taken down; China is notoriously fierce in its defence of its own industry, and given that 3Ps occupy a sort of "grey area" the chances are that Hasbro wouldn't get anywhere in a Chinese court. They only went after these companies because it was "easy pickings"- even in China they can't exactly pretend that's their own work.

And that's before we even get to the rumours that 3Ps and HasTak are actually friendly with each other "behind the scenes" and operate under a gentlemen's agreement not to step on each other's toes. Obviously worth taking with a grain of salt, but I can believe it- stranger things have happened in the world of business.

Regardless, I won't imagine 3Ps going away any time soon, or even "modified" KOs really. If 1:1 KOs get the axe (which they probably won't, these businesses just change their name and set up shop elsewhere) then good riddance though.

Patents only last 20yrs, so any toy designs patented before 1998 should be legally reproducible. G1 figures would have become public domain a long time ago.

Copyrights last much longer, though, so, ironically, the artwork and names on the toy's packaging is protected longer than the toy.

i certainly hope this means no more cheap KOs being sold or produced and crooks trying to pass them off as genuine

gantzrunner wrote: These hurt, but imagine getting prime 3.0 and having something like this happen. At his price it's unimaginable.

So much this. Coming from someone who's loved the franchise my whole life but only really started collecting recently as an adult (as in, restarted with Titans Return - yes, that new), I have some fresh perspective on the "are we getting what we're paying for?" angle that every collector frets about with each new wave. The Prime Wars trilogy - while exciting for me since these were the first toys I gazed at for any length of time since I was a kid - was horrendous for skimming the margins with the use of stickers and shoddy engineering (looking at you, floppy Octones and Twinfires of the world). Overall quality of the characters suffered mightily as huge compromises were made for the sake of a combiner gimmick that - while nice - pales in comparison to what a good quality combiner can be. How do we know this? Because 3P has done it, and is where all the passion was prior to this latest burst of Studio Series/Siege releases. What is so great about Siege with me is the attention to quality at the deluxe/voyager/presumably leader level. No compromises made on articulation (within obvious reason), tight joints (overlooking one quibble with Megatron's head), firm tabs everywhere. Someone at Hastak got tired of the game and said, "See this 3P I bought last week? It makes our Optimus/Octone redeco look like a joke. Why can't I make more like this Generations Toy or Perfect Effect or Magic Square?" And Hasbro said, "Ok, let's do it. The line will be called Siege." And collectors saw that it was good, and finally got toys with the quality of what Masterpiece should have always been and consistently fails to achieve.

Someone's MP-44 is GOING to break, or arrive broken, or unable to transform because the diecast is just torqued over enough that the pin won't rotate to get the tab in (happened to my MPM-5, was furious, and I only paid $50). Toy is ruined, out of the box, before you even got to know it. Manufacturer maybe can make it right, but man - you're going to love packaging your beloved bot up and sending him away right after you meet him. Or maybe he'll arrive with paint screwed up all over from a simple ride in the plastic (happened to my MPM-4). What would be excusable at the $30 price point, possibly, is ridiculous when you're paying for a Masterpiece. What Hastak doesn't get is that people aren't just paying for the mold and the deco - they are expecting zero QC issues. That's what Masterpiece means to me. Since Hastak couldn't hack this, 3P thrived. Have you seen the attention to detail and mindfulness that goes into something like Generations Toys "Tyrant" (IDW Megatron stealth bomber). Every 3P I have ever payed more than $100 for has arrived FLAWLESS, in packaging so nice I feel like I could throw it around in my house and the toy inside would be fine. In the case of the latter, the display stand alone was the best I have ever seen in my life. Amazing! Let me know when Shockwave or Ultra Magnus will ever come with a display stand, let alone whatever the next Titan Class you're getting ripped off for is.

Hasbro chose to go after the worst infringers while keeping the market open for honest effort attempts at toys they don't intend to produce anytime soon (or don't have the imagination to - looking at Jetpower Revive Prime). This is commendable. The problem is that the loser in this case was a beast of their own making. They had to have seen the writing on the wall - huge markup MP's with very high demand - and known the risk a well-produced KO could make on their bottom line. And the risk exists for precisely the reasons we've described - because when you see a seller on eBay or Amazon (the only place you can find these toys anymore given the horrendous distribution and store closings), these are written as KO (you think Grandma understands what that means? She sees awesome toy for much lower price than anywhere else, perfect for little Jimmy) or as "reissues". Hasbro had to come after them with a machete. Won't faze most of us who already see MP quality in 3P versions everywhere. Will be disappointing to people who get the typical Hastak QC on their $300 toy and are left wondering how to make it right. Hastak's customer service in these regards can be good, but often so slow that "buyer assumes all risk" is pretty much spot on.

If you dont want people buying knock offs then stop selling over priced garbage, all the money that was spent on that trial could've been put back into the toyline to make things better and give people less reason to buy KOs.

Caelus wrote:Patents only last 20yrs, so any toy designs patented before 1998 should be legally reproducible. G1 figures would have become public domain a long time ago.

Copyrights last much longer, though, so, ironically, the artwork and names on the toy's packaging is protected longer than the toy.

But the toy itself comes from a design that is copywritten, no? So by reproducing the toy you are infringing on a design copyright.

I don't know if the design itself can be copyrighted, but the characters can be, and the toys would be derivative figures of characters protected by copyright. I don't think it matters that the characters were toys first instead of comic or TV characters.

Think of it this way: if you make a Spider-Man action figure, you're violating Marvel's IP whether you're copying an existing toy design or not. I imagine hypothetical infringement claims would only boil down to the toy design if the engineering was duplicated but the character was not recognizably the same.

AcademyofDrX wrote:I don't know if the design itself can be copyrighted, but the characters can be, and the toys would be derivative figures of characters protected by copyright. I don't think it matters that the characters were toys first instead of comic or TV characters.

Think of it this way: if you make a Spider-Man action figure, you're violating Marvel's IP whether you're copying an existing toy design or not. I imagine hypothetical infringement claims would only boil down to the toy design if the engineering was duplicated but the character was not recognizably the same.

I meant more character design that is used on the toy. We end up saying the same thing, that the toys do fall under some copyright in one way or another.

I don't know much about toy intellectual property law and it's actually really fascinating! But the basis idea is that between patents, copyrights, and trademarks, there are multiple elements that other parties can't use.

The 3P convention of using made-up names and excluding faction symbols is one specific way to avoid trademark infringement specifically, because graphic designs like logos are explicitly protected by trademark. I doubt those omissions alone put 3P products on the right side of the law, but it may be riskier for Hasbro to go after them for many reasons.

A lot of the arguments in this thread are less about the legal implications of infringement and more ethical rationalizations for buying or selling these products. That's a whole separate argument, and I'm inclined to just let that go.

william-james88 wrote:

Caelus wrote:Patents only last 20yrs, so any toy designs patented before 1998 should be legally reproducible. G1 figures would have become public domain a long time ago.

Copyrights last much longer, though, so, ironically, the artwork and names on the toy's packaging is protected longer than the toy.

But the toy itself comes from a design that is copywritten, no? So by reproducing the toy you are infringing on a design copyright.

My recollection is that most of the season 1-2 G1 Transformers existed as toys in other lines before any of the characters we recognize were conceived. If one diligently reproduces or reverse engineers the original mold for Optimus, they're reproducing a toy that existed before any copyrights pertaining to "Optimus Prime".

If you want a comparison point, look at Armalite's AR-15 - it's design is now public domain, so anyone can manufacture it. The only copyright applies to the designation "AR-15" - only Colt is allowed to market the AR-15 as an AR-15.

Megatron Wolf wrote:If you dont want people buying knock offs then stop selling over priced garbage, all the money that was spent on that trial could've been put back into the toyline to make things better and give people less reason to buy KOs.

This is about protecting intellectual property. As long as the KOs are being produced, it's irrelevant how much the official pieces cost. And if the official pieces were cheaper, there would still be KOs, even cheaper.

Black Hat wrote:Yeah, actual 1:1 KOs are what's being targeted here. I don't think Hasbro would stand a chance of getting "original" 3Ps being taken down; China is notoriously fierce in its defence of its own industry, and given that 3Ps occupy a sort of "grey area" the chances are that Hasbro wouldn't get anywhere in a Chinese court. They only went after these companies because it was "easy pickings"- even in China they can't exactly pretend that's their own work.

I learned a little about Chinese law while writing this article. If a company registers their properties as Hasbro has then the Chinese government will defend them like their own. All it takes for a complaining company to put things into motion is to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a violation has taken place which leads to an administrative raid by law enforcement and it escalates from there. In this case two people were fined and jailed and a company was fined. In the US this sort of infringement would lead to a civil lawsuit, but in China it's criminal. China is taking this VERY serious now. Probably doesn't hurt that Hasbro has been pumping money into China with their movie partnerships.

Caelus wrote:Patents only last 20yrs, so any toy designs patented before 1998 should be legally reproducible. G1 figures would have become public domain a long time ago.

The patents really only protect the transformation itself. It's still not OK to use Hasbro's old molds or make new ones based on Hasbro's figures of Hasbro's protected characters. So things like ratchet joints or the way Grimlock's torso slides would be part of the patent, but not the actual design details (head sculpts et al)

Caelus wrote:My recollection is that most of the season 1-2 G1 Transformers existed as toys in other lines before any of the characters we recognize were conceived. If one diligently reproduces or reverse engineers the original mold for Optimus, they're reproducing a toy that existed before any copyrights pertaining to "Optimus Prime".

Intellectual property is still property like any other and when they teamed up with Takara they took ownership of that property (outside Japan) and they renewed the patents in the US at the time. And despite the patents having expired it's still no less their character.

Caelus wrote:If you want a comparison point, look at Armalite's AR-15 - it's design is now public domain, so anyone can manufacture it. The only copyright applies to the designation "AR-15" - only Colt is allowed to market the AR-15 as an AR-15.

.
Looked it up and from what I can tell the other companies made their rifles based on the ArmaLite versions, but didn't actually share any parts from them, just similar parts. That's different from the G1 knockoffs that do share molds or used reverse engineered molds. Plus a gun is just an object while Optimus Prime has further IP protections as a character.

Ironhidensh wrote:

leokearon wrote:3rd Parties may not copy Hasbro toys, but they are using their characters' likenesses for their own profit. You can make a Spider-man toy, call him something different put him in his own unique packaging but you aren't really going to fool anyone. After the KO's the third parties will be targeted.

Doubtful. Hasbro would loose more money fighting it in court, than they stood to gain.

In the case of KOs there doesn't seem to be much in the way of a court battle as long as they make a good case. While it doesn't apply here, China does have the "well-known" trademark law which basically means if a trademark is recognizable to the general Chinese public it qualifies for protection (this would apply to KO Transformers logos or faction symbols). I'd be surprised if there isn't a similar protection for copyrights that I don't know the name of. I feel like it wouldn't be that costly if they went after the more obvious things like the Masterpiece-style cars and almost anything Optimus Prime. I'm sure they know which fights would be an easy win. If a company like Harmony Gold that doesn't really make anything can keep defending their Macross/Robotech copyrights in court then surely Hasbro can.

Emerje

Emerje wrote:If a company like Harmony Gold that doesn't really make anything can keep defending their Macross/Robotech copyrights in court then surely Hasbro can.

Emerje

Wait a sec, thats a very interesting point. Hasbro did produce a Jetfire toy that had the macross look and even the style of headsculpt in the generations line.

So how is that different (legally speaking, I dont want to get into morality) than another company making a transforming toy that looks like Optimus but isnt called that and is its own mold?

william-james88 wrote:

Emerje wrote:If a company like Harmony Gold that doesn't really make anything can keep defending their Macross/Robotech copyrights in court then surely Hasbro can.

Emerje

Wait a sec, thats a very interesting point. Hasbro did produce a Jetfire toy that had the macross look and even the style of headsculpt in the generations line.

So how is that different (legally speaking, I dont want to get into morality) than another company making a transforming toy that looks like Optimus but isnt called that and is its own mold?

Keep in mind that Harmony gold DID sue Hasbro over their SDCC G.I.Joe Jetfire which settled out of court (which allowed for the set to be sold on HTS even though HG demanded they be turned over to them). Then shortly after that we got Leader Jetfire so I'm guessing this release had something to do with the settlement. You don't see any Harmony Gold trademarks on Jetfire's box so it's likely the settlement was in Hasbro's favor.

Emerje

Emerje wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Emerje wrote:If a company like Harmony Gold that doesn't really make anything can keep defending their Macross/Robotech copyrights in court then surely Hasbro can.

Emerje

Wait a sec, thats a very interesting point. Hasbro did produce a Jetfire toy that had the macross look and even the style of headsculpt in the generations line.

So how is that different (legally speaking, I dont want to get into morality) than another company making a transforming toy that looks like Optimus but isnt called that and is its own mold?

Keep in mind that Harmony gold DID sue Hasbro over their SDCC G.I.Joe Jetfire which settled out of court (which allowed for the set to be sold on HTS even though HG demanded they be turned over to them). Then shortly after that we got Leader Jetfire so I'm guessing this release had something to do with the settlement. You don't see any Harmony Gold trademarks on Jetfire's box so it's likely the settlement was in Hasbro's favor.

Emerje

So that means that the toy did not infringe on Harmony Gold's copyright, which may mean that a 3p item that looks like a known Hasbro character might not infringe on Hasbro's, right?

william-james88 wrote:

Emerje wrote:If a company like Harmony Gold that doesn't really make anything can keep defending their Macross/Robotech copyrights in court then surely Hasbro can.

Emerje

Wait a sec, thats a very interesting point. Hasbro did produce a Jetfire toy that had the macross look and even the style of headsculpt in the generations line.

So how is that different (legally speaking, I dont want to get into morality) than another company making a transforming toy that looks like Optimus but isnt called that and is its own mold?

Don't forget they were homaging G1 Jetfire which is a Hasbro Toy, so Hasbro could have used that as part of their defence

william-james88 wrote:

Emerje wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Emerje wrote:If a company like Harmony Gold that doesn't really make anything can keep defending their Macross/Robotech copyrights in court then surely Hasbro can.

Emerje

Wait a sec, thats a very interesting point. Hasbro did produce a Jetfire toy that had the macross look and even the style of headsculpt in the generations line.

So how is that different (legally speaking, I dont want to get into morality) than another company making a transforming toy that looks like Optimus but isnt called that and is its own mold?

Keep in mind that Harmony gold DID sue Hasbro over their SDCC G.I.Joe Jetfire which settled out of court (which allowed for the set to be sold on HTS even though HG demanded they be turned over to them). Then shortly after that we got Leader Jetfire so I'm guessing this release had something to do with the settlement. You don't see any Harmony Gold trademarks on Jetfire's box so it's likely the settlement was in Hasbro's favor.

Emerje

So that means that the toy did not infringe on Harmony Gold's copyright, which may mean that a 3p item that looks like a known Hasbro character might not infringe on Hasbro's, right?

Probably not. Hasbro has an indisputable right to the likeness of their own, something a 3P would never have.

Oh, and I just refreshed myself on the case and I was mistaken about it being settled out of court (though the results appear to be basically the same). It was actually dismissed by the court "with prejudice", meaning Harmony Gold can't sue Hasbro again for it. I'm guessing Hasbro's lawyers were very convincing in their own rights to the likeness. That leaves Hasbro clear to make all the Jetfires they want without issue.

Emerje

Isn't there something about if it's a certain % different then there's no case? That might be how Generations Jetfire slipped through.