Site Article of Interest: 'Sabrblade's Exodus Vs.'

Sabrblade wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:A few minor nits here and there with my own interpretations of some of the canon-but still damned impressive.

While doing this, I was mostly trying to ignore as many personal views and opinions of the canon and present everything as it's told at face value.

It's two things.

1. Hound doesn't know about energon cubes... just Hound. It's also the wording he uses. 'Some kind of cube'. It doesn;t suggest to me that the other Autobots don't know or don't use cubes themselves. As for the recharing chamber, it's simply more convenient for them it seems.

Add the visual evidence in War Dawn and energon cubes aren't an exclusively-Decepticon technology.

2. I never got the idea that all Autobts are nameless until named in Autobot Boot Camp in TF:A. I doubt every single Autobot went through it.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:1. Hound doesn't know about energon cubes... just Hound. It's also the wording he uses. 'Some kind of cube'. It doesn;t suggest to me that the other Autobots don't know or don't use cubes themselves. As for the recharing chamber, it's simply more convenient for them it seems.

The "Traitor" episode implies that the Autobots don't use Energon Cubes. When Cliffjumper tells Prime and Ratchet that he saw Mirage carrying two Energon Cubes, Ratchet is completely baffled at where and how Mirage could have gotten Energon Cubes from. If the Autobots used them, it would have been simple to assume that Mirage got them from the Autobots' own supply, yet Ratchet is confused as to how Mirage could have acquired Energon Cubes at all. Not simply the fact that he has them, but that he was able to get them from somewhere period.

And why can't the Recharging Chambers be the Autobots' energy recharging source?

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Add the visual evidence in War Dawn and energon cubes aren't an exclusively-Decepticon technology.

The dialogue in that episode never once used the word "energon" to refer to that stack of energy. Only the word "energy" was used.

Plus, this isn't the only time that the animators used the look of Energon Cubes for something that wasn't Energon. The Combaticons' Personality Components, for example, were drawn as Energon Cubes when the script for "Starscream's Brigade" called for a different design for them (glowing green cubes with words of warning written on them, and then later colored ebony). Not to mention that, despite looking exactly like Energon Cubes in the episode "Starscream's Brigade", the "B.O.T." episode drew them looking significantly more detailed and gadget-like.

Plus, the opening narration of the first episode says that the planet had been drained of its "once rich resources of energy", not specifically energon. And the glowing orange conductors Wheeljack and Bumblebee steal are said to hold "energy", not "energon". Coupled with Hound's unfamiliarity with energon, we cannot say that Energon had been the sole source of energy used by the Transformers before coming to Earth in the G1 cartoon. If it had been, then it's really stretching to say that Hound never knew the name of the very stuff he had lived on for all of his life.

I've also just started reading the old Marvel G1 comics and this argument is supported there too since ten issues in and not once has the word "energon" ever been brought up by either side. Only the words "energy" and "fuel" have been mentioned (the latter much moreso than the former).

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:2. I never got the idea that all Autobts are nameless until named in Autobot Boot Camp in TF:A. I doubt every single Autobot went through it.

Eh, I just went with what the show and Almanacs gave us, with them saying that those who attended Autobot Boot Camp got their names there and acted like they hadn't been called much of anything else before. Both the sergeants and the cadets reacted like the cadets were nobodies until they got their names there.

Now it is entirely possible that the cadets went by some previous identifier prior to entering boot camp, but that notion wasn't really explored so I just took what we were given and had to work with it.

The other is an ancient group of space-faring Transformers (including Jetfire) who served under the Dynasty of Primes.

Is that from the movie comics? Because IIRC in the film Jetfire states that he is (or was) a Decepticon working for the Fallen and he quits because he didn't like their negative attitudes or something like that.

Cyberstrike wrote:

The other is an ancient group of space-faring Transformers (including Jetfire) who served under the Dynasty of Primes.

IIRC in the film Jetfire states that he is (or was) a Decepticon working for the Fallen and he quits because he didn't like their negative attitudes or something like that.

The Comics established Jetfire as one of the ancient Seekers.

Cyberstrike wrote:

The other is an ancient group of space-faring Transformers (including Jetfire) who served under the Dynasty of Primes.

IIRC in the film Jetfire states that he is (or was) a Decepticon working for the Fallen and he quits because he didn't like their negative attitudes or something like that.

And Jetfire was one of these Seekers who served under the Prime Dynasty. They were charged with seeking out stars to be used to recharge the AllSpark. Only after The Fallen went rogue did they become Decepticon-affiliated.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I actually read most of that, just fantastic.

Very well researched.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see that you were one of the few who, like me, made it through nearly all of that.

That is astounding work there Saberblade!

That takes a devotion to detail and history that few folks possess the patience for. The truly scary part is that there is actually room to add more detail points to all of this. I would hope, for the sake of your own sanity, that you are not going to attempt to tackle any further detailing on this any time soon. What you have done is truly amazing. You deserve some kind of plaque or medal for this. We'll have to hit up some of our modders and customs guys to see what they can come up with for you.

T-Macksimus wrote:The truly scary part is that there is actually room to add more detail points to all of this. I would hope, for the sake of your own sanity, that you are not going to attempt to tackle any further detailing on this any time soon.

Yep. For while I had considered adding info from the Marvel G1/G2 comics, the Dreamwave G1 comics, the IDW G1 comics, the Dreamwave Armada/Energon comics, the RiD cartoon, the Titan movie comics, the Japanese G1 cartoons, and other sources as well. But, I figured it would be best to stick with both the English side of the fiction and what I knew best, as I could have gotten false info from secondary sources.

Plus, things like the RiD cartoon didn't have as much necessary backstory material to be included in here. While I could have said something about how Optimus got the Matrix there or how Ultra Magnus and he were brothers, or how the Predacons were dominate enemry faction, the accumulated info from that series wouldn't add up to the competing number of info from other series.

T-Macksimus wrote:What you have done is truly amazing. You deserve some kind of plaque or medal for this. We'll have to hit up some of our modders and customs guys to see what they can come up with for you.

Meeting some of ya'll at BotCon might be rewarding enough.

Okay, lots of evidence on energy/energon. I concede, partly.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:2. I never got the idea that all Autobts are nameless until named in Autobot Boot Camp in TF:A. I doubt every single Autobot went through it.

Eh, I just went with what the show and Almanacs gave us, with them saying that those who attended Autobot Boot Camp got their names there and acted like they hadn't been called much of anything else before. Both the sergeants and the cadets reacted like the cadets were nobodies until they got their names there.

Now it is entirely possible that the cadets went by some previous identifier prior to entering boot camp, but that notion wasn't really explored so I just took what we were given and had to work with it.[/quote]
Of course they're nobodies when first arriving. That's what a boot camp does to the cadets-break them down and rebuild them into soldiers. I don't think Rosanna attended boot camp, and she's got a name.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:2. I never got the idea that all Autobts are nameless until named in Autobot Boot Camp in TF:A. I doubt every single Autobot went through it.

Eh, I just went with what the show and Almanacs gave us, with them saying that those who attended Autobot Boot Camp got their names there and acted like they hadn't been called much of anything else before. Both the sergeants and the cadets reacted like the cadets were nobodies until they got their names there.

Now it is entirely possible that the cadets went by some previous identifier prior to entering boot camp, but that notion wasn't really explored so I just took what we were given and had to work with it.

Of course they're nobodies when first arriving. That's what a boot camp does to the cadets-break them down and rebuild them into soldiers. I don't think Rosanna attended boot camp, and she's got a name.

She took on a different career path. She could have started down the path she took earlier in life and got her name that way. The cadets entering Boot Camp seemed to be somewhat like youngsters.

Or, since we really don't know much of Rosanna's past, she could have had a different name before becoming a singer. How a non-boot camp Autobot got his or her name is a bit hazy, since it wasn't touched upon.

Like I said, I just had to go with what we were given. If you can find solid confirmed word that the cadets entering boot camp (other than Shockwave or any other special case) had real names before being given names by their drill sergeants, I'll gladly go back and rephrase my list to the correct wording.

Just finished reading it all, very well done, I hope you sent it to Hasbro as well! If not then you should and see if you get a reply. If you do get a reply then you HAVE to share it with us! XD

Very nice work.

Fires_Of_Inferno wrote:Just finished reading it all, very well done, I hope you sent it to Hasbro as well! If not then you should and see if you get a reply. If you do get a reply then you HAVE to share it with us! XD

Very nice work.

I have not, but that is an interesting idea. Though, I wouldn't know where to start in sending it to Hasbro (or even if this format of coloring would still apply with whatever Hasbro uses).

If anyone here would know how to get this seen by either Hasbro or the higher-ranked people of the Transformers Fandom, please let me know. If word can be passed on, that'd be great (so long as I am given the proper credit to avoid plagiarism and whatnot by anyone passing on the word).

Outstanding work, sir. Major props to thoroughness.

I think I closed my mind off when I read it. I only noticed a handful of descrepancies when I read it, but they would only be descrepancies based on what source the reader chooses to christen the truth.

I think Hasbro, when they commisioned this book, acknowledged that their cash cow had reached so many people through different incarnations that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to establish a true prequel to all versions of Transformers, so it focused more on producing a solid origin that honored what, in my opinion, most fans have declared their favorite approaches. [Plus the author is left to add his own favorites, which Alex mentioned in a recent interview].

Once again, only opinion, but I loved the book because it incorporated or acknowledged the main canons. References to Six Lasers Over Cybertron [Beast Wars], The Quints, Unicron, Orion Pax, the Wreckers, and I think they mentioned The Elite Guard, too. Ratbat was his G1 comics version I believe, Prime his Dreamwave War Within version kinda, and I think the simmer to a boil approach to the Prime/Megatron war of ideals rocked. it gives something from our childhood an awesome dramatic weight.

I know this thread's for focusing on the differences and not opinion, but I think DK's Ultimate Guide by Simon Furman should be due for a revision and they should ask you to work with him.

NICE WORK!

"Exodus vs. G1 vs. the Unicron Trilogy vs. the Movies vs. Animated
The lineage of Primes to reign before Optimus

* Sentinel Prime seems to have been the only Prime in existence following the War of the Primes to come before Optimus, as he brought forth the Golden Age and then established the Caste System afterward, bringing the Golden Age to its end.
* There was a long line of Primes that came before Optimus: Primon, the Alpha Prime --> Prima --> Prime Nova A.K.A. Nova Prime --> Guardian Prime --> Zeta Prime --> Sentinel Prime --> Optimus Prime
* The only other Autobot leader known other than Optimus Prime was Rodimus, but he did not bear the Prime title and was of equal rank to Optimus.
* There had been an entire Dynasty of Primes to come before Optimus
* Optimus was not Autobot Supreme Commander and thus did not have any lineage of predecessors. Plus, here, the highest rank of leadership was called “Magnus”, with “Prime” being a lower rank.
* However, those who were known to have bore the Magnus rank include Zeemon Magnus, Nova Magnus, Powered Convoy “P.C.” Magnus, and Ultra Magnus. Sentinel Prime became the “acting Magnus”, but hasn’t officially received the rank yet."

-- In your above statements, you said of the Unicron Trilogy that Rodimus was the only other Autobot leader, however do not forget Vector Prime, as this would also follow the topic.

I...think I read most of it. Damn.

My mind =

Man that is funny. I can't believe that anyone would even try to bring the different transformer stories together. They are all to different. It would be like someone trying to put all the Tenchi or Gundam stories together it will never work. But this was a great read. I might pick up the book.

T-Macksimus wrote: I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see that you were one of the few who, like me, made it through nearly all of that.

I was doing my dialysis tratement at the time, so I had loads of time on my hands.

Haven't read nearly all of this as yet. But, having skimmed through parts, I had to make it a point to drop in a line of kudos. The effort it must have taken to put this together...

Yeah. Kudos.

Fortress Rodimus wrote:Man that is funny. I can't believe that anyone would even try to bring the different transformer stories together. They are all to different. It would be like someone trying to put all the Tenchi or Gundam stories together it will never work. But this was a great read. I might pick up the book.

With Gundam, they're pretty straight-up when it comes to continuity. Each calender (Universal Century, Anno Domini, Cosmic Era, etc.) is a different continuity. Except for Gundam X, which is supposed to be an alternate future for Universal Century, and Turn-A Gundam which is (As I have been told seeing as how I haven't watch Turn-A yet) a sort of mix of all continuities somehow mashed together. it helped differentiate thigns when you realize that in nearly each continuity, Mobile Suits are fairly new inventions.

its like comparing the G1 cartoon with the G1 comic by marvel
they are very different may be same characters but different origins and stories

Oh, I am loving this feedback! Whether positive or negative, I don't care! It's all good conversation.

Nemesis37 wrote:I think I closed my mind off when I read it. I only noticed a handful of descrepancies when I read it, but they would only be descrepancies based on what source the reader chooses to christen the truth.

The only real differences that I wanted to point out as discrepencies were those existing between Exodus and WFC. The rest were to show that Exodus isn't a prequel to any existing fiction, but is really the start of a new era.

Nemesis37 wrote:I think Hasbro, when they commisioned this book, acknowledged that their cash cow had reached so many people through different incarnations that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to establish a true prequel to all versions of Transformers, so it focused more on producing a solid origin that honored what, in my opinion, most fans have declared their favorite approaches. [Plus the author is left to add his own favorites, which Alex mentioned in a recent interview].

Precisely. This is to show that it doesn't fit with any other series since it's its own entity linked only really with the Prime cartoon (and with WFC only via the characters' physical appearances).

Nemesis37 wrote:Once again, only opinion, but I loved the book because it incorporated or acknowledged the main canons.

More like it just handpicked little elements from past series and incorporated them into this story while discarding everything else. Though, it's better off that way as a separate piece of fiction from the rest of them.

Nemesis37 wrote:Ratbat was his G1 comics version I believe,

Or his G1 IDW self. I think it was that one that had him as a Senator.

Nemesis37 wrote:Prime his Dreamwave War Within version kinda,

More like a blend between his G1 cartoon and War Within self (cartoon Orion Pax name, War Within data clerk occupation).

Nemesis37 wrote:and I think the simmer to a boil approach to the Prime/Megatron war of ideals rocked. it gives something from our childhood an awesome dramatic weight.

Oh, yes! I loved the dynamic in the realtionship between Orion Pax and Megatron all throughout the book.

Nemesis37 wrote:I know this thread's for focusing on the differences and not opinion, but I think DK's Ultimate Guide by Simon Furman should be due for a revision and they should ask you to work with him.

BlackSilverBot wrote: -- In your above statements, you said of the Unicron Trilogy that Rodimus was the only other Autobot leader, however do not forget Vector Prime, as this would also follow the topic.

Allow me to explain why I left out Vector Prime. While an "Ask Vector Prime" answer did say that he was a leader long ago, we must remember that the Unicron Trilogy is not his home dimension. Being what he is, he has none. Therefore, we cannot say for certain that he was leader in that particular world (and that answer does seem kinda puzzling considering the nature of his being).

Plus, the Japanese version (being the authentic version of the story) used the rank of "Convoy" to define the Autobot leaders of that series, and Vector Prime was still called "Vector Prime" (instead of "Vector Convoy") in Japan as well. Both Optimus Prime and Rodimus held this rank (Optimus Prime was "Convoy" then "Grand Convoy" then "Galaxy Convoy"; and Rodimus was "Rodimus Convoy"), but Vector Prime did not.

Vector Prime was something a little more sacred than an Autobot leader.

Fortress Rodimus wrote:Man that is funny. I can't believe that anyone would even try to bring the different transformer stories together. They are all to different. It would be like someone trying to put all the Tenchi or Gundam stories together it will never work. But this was a great read. I might pick up the book.

Who said that they were trying to blend them all together? This was originally intended to contrast the book and the game it was based off of, as well as debunk any assumptions that the book is prequel to G1/the movies/anything that isn't the Prime cartoon.

Ultra Markus wrote:its like comparing the G1 cartoon with the G1 comic by marvel
they are very different may be same characters but different origins and stories

True, very true indeed.

Ultra Markus wrote:its like comparing the G1 cartoon with the G1 comic by marvel
they are very different may be same characters but different origins and stories

Exactly, as much as people try to make the different incarnations fit, even when it seems like they are supposed to, they never really do. Often with things like G1 they don't even fit with themselves. For detailed purposed you really have to take each different property as completely separate. As a fan, my favorite stuff will probably always be G1 because that's what I grew up with. As much as I'd like the see that exact continuity further explored and expanded, I probably never will, but with all the similarities and whatnot, it's not terribly difficult to make your own unofficial continuity for yourself if you really want to get the further adventures of your favorites.

Personally loving G1, I tend to look at it as a fableized version of Transformers history; innaccurate tales told of Transformers history that were designed as stories to tell children (which is what they actually were anyway), but were never too historically accurate. That's how I looked at it when reading the Dreamwave G1 years back, and that's kinda how I looked at it while reading Exodus. Officially they aren't REALLY in the same continuity and they don't technically fit together AT ALL, but looking at G1 that fableized way they can sort of unofficially fit, and for me as big fan of G1 giving it that unofficial connection in my mind gives it the resonance of those characters from my childhood even if they aren't officially connected.

This list is a great example of how the different continuities will never actually fit, and that people should probably stop trying to make some official connection. Hasbro clearly realizes this and seems to be starting everything from scratch with Exodus and Prime and that's probably for the best, but I wouldn't mind some more fun stuff like Exodus that I can have my own personal connections with.

For the decision to do this.

For the strength to do this (I'm sure it was a labor of love).

For the result.

Well done.I'll come back to read more and I recommend and vote that this gets copied and pasted into a Wiki page to remain in history forever so that it doesn't fade away into the deep dark depths of the old posts lists.

Brilliant,Sabrblade.You deserve to choose a new name for yourself as a trophy.

(Edit: My own fooling around with my name does not put me in your league,it's just cheaper than buying lots of new hats).

Fearing wrote:Exactly, as much as people try to make the different incarnations fit, even when it seems like they are supposed to, they never really do. Often with things like G1 they don't even fit with themselves. For detailed purposed you really have to take each different property as completely separate. As a fan, my favorite stuff will probably always be G1 because that's what I grew up with. As much as I'd like the see that exact continuity further explored and expanded, I probably never will, but with all the similarities and whatnot, it's not terribly difficult to make your own unofficial continuity for yourself if you really want to get the further adventures of your favorites.

Personally loving G1, I tend to look at it as a fableized version of Transformers history; innaccurate tales told of Transformers history that were designed as stories to tell children (which is what they actually were anyway), but were never too historically accurate. That's how I looked at it when reading the Dreamwave G1 years back, and that's kinda how I looked at it while reading Exodus. Officially they aren't REALLY in the same continuity and they don't technically fit together AT ALL, but looking at G1 that fableized way they can sort of unofficially fit, and for me as big fan of G1 giving it that unofficial connection in my mind gives it the resonance of those characters from my childhood even if they aren't officially connected.

This list is a great example of how the different continuities will never actually fit, and that people should probably stop trying to make some official connection. Hasbro clearly realizes this and seems to be starting everything from scratch with Exodus and Prime and that's probably for the best, but I wouldn't mind some more fun stuff like Exodus that I can have my own personal connections with.

Technically, while all the different versions of each story do not fit together with each other in a linked sense, they do all fit together in the grand scheme of things by having them set within their own Universal Streams in the Multiverse.

For just the Aligned Continuity Family alone, there are at least six different versions of the story told by WFC, Exodus, and Prime.

• WFC (console game) --> millions of years pass --> Prime (graphic novel) --> Prime (cartoon)
• WFC comic --> WFC (console game) --> millions of years pass --> Prime (graphic novel) --> Prime cartoon
• WFC timeline --> WFC (console game) --> millions of years pass --> Prime (graphic novel) --> Prime (cartoon)
• WFC (DS game) --> millions of years pass --> Prime (graphic novel) --> Prime (cartoon)
• Cybertron Adventures --> millions of year pass --> Prime (graphic novel) --> Prime cartoon
• Exodus --> millions of years pass --> Prime (graphic novel) --> Prime (cartoon)

NOTE: Red arrows symbolize an impossible connection. I also left out both the WFC sequel and the Exodus sequel until we have more info on them than what we already have.

Mektek Smoketreader wrote::APPLAUSE:
For the decision to do this.

For the strength to do this (I'm sure it was a labor of love).

For the result.

Mektek Smoketreader wrote:Well done.I'll come back to read more and I recommend and vote that this gets copied and pasted into a Wiki page to remain in history forever so that it doesn't fade away into the deep dark depths of the old posts lists.

Mektek Smoketreader wrote:Brilliant,Sabrblade.You deserve to choose a new name for yourself as a trophy.

(Edit: My own fooling around with my name does not put me in your league,it's just cheaper than buying lots of new hats).

But, I like my name.

One thing I don't get in your multiverse graph there is how any version of Exodus or WFC can logically fit with Prime. I have not read the Prime graphic novel yet, and perhaps that is the missing link, but in both WFC and Exodus, Dark Energon seems to be fairly well known to everyone, but in the first episodes of Prime, it seems to be a new discovery (it's been a little while since I've watched those first episodes, so maybe I missed something there). This has probably been discussed elsewhere, but having a wife,2 young kids, etc, and seemingly no time anymore it's hard to find the time to check the forums too often. Since continuity is the big topic here and you seem to be as well versed as anyone, I figured I'd ask. Does the graphic novel explain this or am I missing something else? I had planned to check it out anyway, but I probably would sooner if it is important.

Fearing wrote:One thing I don't get in your multiverse graph there is how any version of Exodus or WFC can logically fit with Prime. I have not read the Prime graphic novel yet, and perhaps that is the missing link, but in both WFC and Exodus, Dark Energon seems to be fairly well known to everyone, but in the first episodes of Prime, it seems to be a new discovery (it's been a little while since I've watched those first episodes, so maybe I missed something there).

This notion has been addressed, yes. That reaction to Dark Energon in the second episode was done so that viewers who had neither played the games nor read the book could be introduced to the stuff. Plus, in the third episode, Optimus and Ratchet both knew of the existence of Dark Energon, though Ratchet claimed that any source of it had become scarce.

However, millions and millions of years had passed between the time of the book/games and the time of the show. So, by then, the supply of Dark Energon could have gone dry during all that time. After all, the book did claim that its lasting effects were very brief.

Plus, the Dark Energon in the show is very different from that of the book/games. While the book pretty much had the Dark Energon needing a living host to wield it, the shows has it reanimating the dead instead. Whenever a Darkened Deceptcion would die in the book, the Dark Energon left its host corpse and would move onto another living vessel, while the show has it practically thriving on dead soldiers.

For this discrepancy, one could say that the Dark Energon in the show could be a different variant from the Dark Energon in the book/games. After all, the book dubbed Dark Energon the "Sparks of Unicron", while the shows calls it the "Blood of Unicron".

As for the Prime graphic novel, it's basically just a telling of how Cliffjumper, Arcee, and Starscream all got to Earth from Cybertron, as well as introducing us to the Vehicons and Breakdown (this means that Breakdown had been on Earth even before episode 1).

Ok, does any of these talk about the relation between Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus?

trence5 wrote:Ok, does any of these talk about the relation between Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus?

I didn't go into this because the book doesn't cover this. Nor do the WFC game, the G1 cartoon, the Beast Era cartoons, the Unicron Trilogy cartoons, or the Movie fiction. Animated does have a relationship, but it's not one that be all that interesting to mention.

Had I brought it up, this is pretty much all I could have said about it.

The relationship between Optimus Prime and Ultra Magnus

• Ultra Magnus served under Optimus Prime's command as the leader of the Wreckers
• Ultra Magnus was not involved in the any of the console game's events
• Ultra Magnus served under Optimus Prime's command as the Autobot City Commander
• Ultra Magnus played no involvement in the Beast Era
• Overload (called Ultra Magnus in Japan) mostly served as a cannon combination upgrade for Optimus Prime
• The real Ultra Magnus was not involved in the events of the Unicron Trilogy cartoon, nor did he interact with Optimus Prime
• We know nothing the Movie version of Ultra Magnus, nor any relation of his to Optimus Prime
• Ultra Magnus is the Autobot Supreme Commander who gave Optimus his rank of Prime

Aside from maybe one or two points, there's not much of interest in this issue to be mentioned, and so I didn't bring it up.

It was mostly the RiD cartoon and the different comic series that go into this relationship, but I left those out since:

• The RiD cartoon didn't have enough backstory material to fit into this comparison,and
• I was going with what I'm most familiar with and omitted nearly all the comic stuff. I'm slowly trying to read them to better familiarize myself with them, but it's slow going and one user on here begged me to not add on to this since it'd be too much work for me.

One thing I would add to this that I just thought of for some odd reason, is that because of the nature of the G1 cartoon and that it manages to contradict itself fairly substantially, the fact that Exodus contradicts it, by its nature, would not rule it out of being G1 canon. By the way the G1 cartoon already works, it'd actually fit in better and just fit the run of conflicting information that the show already has. Intended somewhat jokingly, but it does make a bit of sense. Obviously from an official standpoint, it's still not part of that universe(although I do remember reading something from the author saying he tried to make it vague enough and incorporate enough into it that if you wanted to fit it into your favorite version of the Transformers, you could somewhat justify it(again not it any real official way of course)), but just having that pop into my head, I thought I'd throw that out there.

Fearing wrote:One thing I would add to this that I just thought of for some odd reason, is that because of the nature of the G1 cartoon and that it manages to contradict itself fairly substantially, the fact that Exodus contradicts it, by its nature, would not rule it out of being G1 canon. By the way the G1 cartoon already works, it'd actually fit in better and just fit the run of conflicting information that the show already has. Intended somewhat jokingly, but it does make a bit of sense. Obviously from an official standpoint, it's still not part of that universe(although I do remember reading something from the author saying he tried to make it vague enough and incorporate enough into it that if you wanted to fit it into your favorite version of the Transformers, you could somewhat justify it(again not it any real official way of course)), but just having that pop into my head, I thought I'd throw that out there.

I'll probably get crap for this but....the idea that the G1 cartoon "contradict itself fairly substantially" is a misconception.

Yes, there are some minor contradictions, but none that create a big continuity issue that can be called "substantial".

And I'm sure someone with drag out the "so called" contradiction in the Constructicons origin..........but I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Theres no real contradiction in the Constructicons origin, only a perceived one.

Certainly there are ways to explain the apparent contradiction between things like the origin of the Dinobots vs the origin of the Aerialbots on the show, but there are equally ways (if a person really wanted to make the book fit) to explain away apparent contradictions between the book and the show
(the Star Wars and Halo universes have gotten really good at coming up with complete extra stories and such to explain what otherwise would be conflicting material). But as the original poster in this topic stated he was taking everything at the basest face value of appearances without having to come up with an explaination of things(or something to that effect). In which case, without some additional material, things in the show, like Wheeljack claiming he made the Dinobots, basically contradict the fact that later when trying to make the Aerialbots, they cannot just be made, but must be granted a spark. For the purposes of this thread where everything is at face value, is where my point is made.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Fearing wrote:One thing I would add to this that I just thought of for some odd reason, is that because of the nature of the G1 cartoon and that it manages to contradict itself fairly substantially, the fact that Exodus contradicts it, by its nature, would not rule it out of being G1 canon. By the way the G1 cartoon already works, it'd actually fit in better and just fit the run of conflicting information that the show already has. Intended somewhat jokingly, but it does make a bit of sense. Obviously from an official standpoint, it's still not part of that universe(although I do remember reading something from the author saying he tried to make it vague enough and incorporate enough into it that if you wanted to fit it into your favorite version of the Transformers, you could somewhat justify it(again not it any real official way of course)), but just having that pop into my head, I thought I'd throw that out there.

I'll probably get crap for this but....the idea that the G1 cartoon "contradict itself fairly substantially" is a misconception.

Yes, there are some minor contradictions, but none that create a big continuity issue that can be called "substantial".

And I'm sure someone with drag out the "so called" contradiction in the Constructicons origin..........but I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Theres no real contradiction in the Constructicons origin, only a perceived one.

Megatron meant to say: "that the Decepticons rebuilt them in those caves" in season 1. That's my opinion on that.

Fearing wrote:But as the original poster in this topic stated he was taking everything at the basest face value of appearances without having to come up with an explaination of things(or something to that effect).

I did, however, say that I included some supplementary material such as the Animated AllSpark Almanacs and the Movie comics to accompany the information of the cartoons/movies.

And, like Sto said, the contradictions that exist within the G1 cartoon are very minimal when compared to the more blatant contradictions between the G1 cartoon and the Exodus novel. In the case of the G1 cartoon, its only a few bits and pieces that conflict with each other, whereas it's an entire history of events and entire personalities of characters in the Exodus novel that conflict with the G1 cartoon.

Fearing wrote:Certainly there are ways to explain the apparent contradiction between things like the origin of the Dinobots vs the origin of the Aerialbots on the show, but there are equally ways (if a person really wanted to make the book fit) to explain away apparent contradictions between the book and the show
(the Star Wars and Halo universes have gotten really good at coming up with complete extra stories and such to explain what otherwise would be conflicting material). But as the original poster in this topic stated he was taking everything at the basest face value of appearances without having to come up with an explaination of things(or something to that effect). In which case, without some additional material, things in the show, like Wheeljack claiming he made the Dinobots, basically contradict the fact that later when trying to make the Aerialbots, they cannot just be made, but must be granted a spark. For the purposes of this thread where everything is at face value, is where my point is made.

For the record, there isint much of a contradiction between the Dino's origin and the Aerial bots, when you examin how it was all explained.

yheres a difference between an "apparent contradiction" and an "actual contradiction".

Cyberstrike wrote:Megatron meant to say: "that the Decepticons rebuilt them in those caves" in season 1. That's my opinion on that

"built" them new bodies fits better.

Sabrblade wrote:And, like Sto said, the contradictions that exist within the G1 cartoon are very minimal when compared to the more blatant contradictions between the G1 cartoon and the Exodus novel. In the case of the G1 cartoon, its only a few bits and pieces that conflict with each other, whereas it's an entire history of events and entire personalities of characters in the Exodus novel that conflict with the G1 cartoon.

[/quote]

exactly.

I never took the Matrix Vision fully literally when it came to the COnstructicons, myself. Most of them were generic-looking blobs IIRC.

Perhaps I need it explained to me or I totally missed something(it's been a couple years since I've watched it), but in the context of the show, Wheeljack never leaves Earth when creating the Dinobots vs. them having to go to Cybertron to give the Aerialbots life and saying that's the only way a Transformer can be created.. That SEEMS like a pretty big difference. Did they explain something somewhere else in the show?

Not sure what the constructicons one is that you mentioned. Is that how they created Megatron, but were then peaceful, created Crystal City and had to be reprogrammed with the Robo Smasher to follow Megatron? If so, I suppose I've never actually heard an explanation fro that one either.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:I never took the Matrix Vision fully literally when it came to the COnstructicons, myself. Most of them were generic-looking blobs IIRC.

Which is why I worded it as, " individuals who appear to be the Constructicons." I didn't say they were, nor that they weren't, just that they looked to be them.

Though, Hauler's bio references this scene with having him be a former member of the Constructicons, as a nod to how there were eight Constructicon-looking bots in that scene.

Fearing wrote:Perhaps I need it explained to me or I totally missed something(it's been a couple years since I've watched it), but in the context of the show, Wheeljack never leaves Earth when creating the Dinobots vs. them having to go to Cybertron to give the Aerialbots life and saying that's the only way a Transformer can be created.. That SEEMS like a pretty big difference. Did they explain something somewhere else in the show?

Wheeljack didn't grant the Dinobots sparks, but instead built Memory Components to upgrade their brains and thus give them somewhat smarter and more stable artificial personalities.

If one wants to assume that they later got sparks of their own eventually, that's fine. But for what Wheeljack did to make them on Earth, sparks weren't involved.

Fearing wrote:Not sure what the constructicons one is that you mentioned. Is that how they created Megatron, but were then peaceful, created Crystal City and had to be reprogrammed with the Robo Smasher to follow Megatron? If so, I suppose I've never actually heard an explanation fro that one either.

What Sto is saying about that is that some people cite how Megatron said that the Constructicons built on Earth clashes with their backstory given later, in which they already existed on Cybertron and weren't Decepticons until Megatron got to them with the Robo-Smaher. But the line Megatron says about building them on Earth is really uttered only in passing, leaving room for one to say that they built their Earth bodies on Earth.

...though, the episode where we see them on Cybertron in the past shows them already having their Earthen altmodes (and Decepticon symbols to boot!), so this could likely be just an animation error.

Fearing wrote:Perhaps I need it explained to me or I totally missed something(it's been a couple years since I've watched it), but in the context of the show, Wheeljack never leaves Earth when creating the Dinobots vs. them having to go to Cybertron to give the Aerialbots life and saying that's the only way a Transformer can be created.. That SEEMS like a pretty big difference. Did they explain something somewhere else in the show?

Its a simple explanation.The issue is that theres a difference between what fans perceived, and what was actually said.

They never said the "only way" a Transformer can be created was by going to Vector Sigma.As a mater of fact we have at least 2 TF groups created with out VG, the Dinobots and the Technobots.

What was said, by Optimus, was that there wasnt a way for Megatron "to give his cars Cybernetic personalities like theirs on Earth.

Meaning that Megatron didnt have the ability.

Now, further in the episode they explain what Vector Sigma is and what it does.

It is a "MEGA COMPUTER", which PROGRAMED THEM WITH LIFE.

Key words being a master computer and program.

Vector Sigma programs robots with a simulated artificial life program in mass numbers.

Wheeljack and Ratchet, being extremely smart, but just not smart enough, were able to program life at a more basic primitive lever, which explains the Dinobots.

Grimlock, when given super intelligence, was smart enough to program the Technobots would full normal personalities.

Not sure what the constructicons one is that you mentioned. Is that how they created Megatron, but were then peaceful, created Crystal City and had to be reprogrammed with the Robo Smasher to follow Megatron? If so, I suppose I've never actually heard an explanation fro that one either.

There creating Megatron, [if it was the same team], and then Megatron then having to reprogram them for evil is very easy to explain.

Think about this, even DR.Frankenstein did not intend to create a monster.

Theres no reason to assume the Constructicons that built Megatron [if its the same team] intended for Megatron to be evil and re-start the war.

Yeah, that kinda makes sense. Definitely takes a lot of explaining that they wouldn't have bothered to think about when writing it, but that works.

Fearing wrote:Yeah, that kinda makes sense. Definitely takes a lot of explaining that they wouldn't have bothered to think about when writing it, but that works.

The way I see it, its doesnt take much explaining,one just needs to forget what they think they remember and re-absorb the martial.

As kids, we all perceived cretin things from the episodes that werent always really there.Kid do stuff like that.

I've noticed issues like that from every fandom.

Trek Fans thinking "Enterprise" showing ship to ship communication contradicts Spocks in tos episode "Balance of terror"

Star Wars fans thinking that Pademe's death durring child birth contradicts Leia's dialog in Return of the Jedi.

And TF fans thinking theres a contradiction between Megatrons claim to have "built" the Constucticons and their exsistings on Cybertron of the past.Or thr so called Vector Sigma contradictions.

If you divorce yourself from your nostalgic memories and feelings and what you think you remember, and re-examine the martial from a logical fresh point of view you'll see that , in many cases, there really isint a solid contradiction.

Nah, I would have never remembered the contradictions when I was a kid, I would have just went with it back then. It more comes from watching them a couple years ago. When my first kid was born and he needed to be fed every 3 hours I'd watch my old Rhino DVD's in the middle of the night and whatnot and went through the whole series that way. I think it probably came more from Megatron's statement where he technically DID say he built them on Earth (which, granted, can be taken several ways (in my own mental continuity that I use when reading certain things to make them more of interest to me, the Dinobots bodies would've been built on Earth with sparks that were stored on the ark for whatever reasons, to justify some of the cooler stories with Dinobots on Cybertron fitting in)), and just the fact that I probably never would've thought the Autobots would've made robots like the Dinobots without what essentially equals a soul. I probably never even considered that it would be a possibility. So that makes sense.

As far as Constructicons having Earth vehicle forms on Cybertron, that never really bothered me too much. Calling it an animation error is probably a disservice to some hard working animators, as it was probably intentional and more derived from a limit in the animation budgets that whoever funded the animation wouldn't put in time and money into new character designs to get the animators to work off of since even from the first episode their robot modes were basically made from parts of Earth vehicles as it was.

That explains a lot though. Even when I assumed there were some major plot holes/contradictions there, I usually overlook most of that stuff anyway with the G1 show and view it as a fableized telling of events being retold for childeren, since anything that tries to make reference to it for backstory, like the Dreamwave stuff(even though it technically is it's own universe, it definitely made reference to a fair amount of G1 cartoon stuff as happening in it's past), usually ends up with some hard to reconcile contradictions when you try to completely put the two stories together, but it's nice to see that, taken on it's own, you don't neccessarily have to do that with the show.

Sabrblade wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:I never took the Matrix Vision fully literally when it came to the COnstructicons, myself. Most of them were generic-looking blobs IIRC.

Which is why I worded it as, " individuals who appear to be the Constructicons." I didn't say they were, nor that they weren't, just that they looked to be them.

Though, Hauler's bio references this scene with having him be a former member of the Constructicons, as a nod to how there were eight Constructicon-looking bots in that scene.

Ah, sorry. I wasn't commenting on what you wrote. Just a general tiring of people taking Rodimus' Matrix Vision too literally. Even though the Matrix Vision he experienced was refreshingly straightforward compared to a lot of visions I've seen in media, it was still a mental journey and prone to metaphor.

I should've worded that a bit clearer. My bad.

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Ah, sorry. I wasn't commenting on what you wrote. Just a general tiring of people taking Rodimus' Matrix Vision too literally. Even though the Matrix Vision he experienced was refreshingly straightforward compared to a lot of visions I've seen in media, it was still a mental journey and prone to metaphor.

I should've worded that a bit clearer. My bad.

Tis okay.

Though, I do think Sto has a point in his Frankenstein comparison to G1 Cartoon Megs' birth. Megs' creators (be they the Constructicons or not) might not have been aware of the monster that their creation would become.

Sabrblade wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Ah, sorry. I wasn't commenting on what you wrote. Just a general tiring of people taking Rodimus' Matrix Vision too literally. Even though the Matrix Vision he experienced was refreshingly straightforward compared to a lot of visions I've seen in media, it was still a mental journey and prone to metaphor.

I should've worded that a bit clearer. My bad.

Tis okay.

Though, I do think Sto has a point in his Frankenstein comparison to G1 Cartoon Megs' birth. Megs' creators (be they the Constructicons or not) might not have been aware of the monster that their creation would become.

thank you

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Ah, sorry. I wasn't commenting on what you wrote. Just a general tiring of people taking Rodimus' Matrix Vision too literally. Even though the Matrix Vision he experienced was refreshingly straightforward compared to a lot of visions I've seen in media, it was still a mental journey and prone to metaphor.

I should've worded that a bit clearer. My bad.

Tis okay.

Though, I do think Sto has a point in his Frankenstein comparison to G1 Cartoon Megs' birth. Megs' creators (be they the Constructicons or not) might not have been aware of the monster that their creation would become.

thank you

Welcome.

What can I say? You know your stuff.

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Ah, sorry. I wasn't commenting on what you wrote. Just a general tiring of people taking Rodimus' Matrix Vision too literally. Even though the Matrix Vision he experienced was refreshingly straightforward compared to a lot of visions I've seen in media, it was still a mental journey and prone to metaphor.

I should've worded that a bit clearer. My bad.

Tis okay.

Though, I do think Sto has a point in his Frankenstein comparison to G1 Cartoon Megs' birth. Megs' creators (be they the Constructicons or not) might not have been aware of the monster that their creation would become.

thank you

Welcome.

What can I say? You know your stuff.

coming from you, thats a complement.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:coming from you, thats a complement.

Ah, pish posh. You (and Shadowman) have doen more continuity workings than I have.

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:coming from you, thats a complement.

Ah, pish posh. You (and Shadowman) have doen more continuity workings than I have.

maybe, but your eye for detail is amazing.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:coming from you, thats a complement.

Ah, pish posh. You (and Shadowman) have doen more continuity workings than I have.

maybe, but your eye for detail is amazing.

Ah shucks.

Still, I had to go above and beyond more normal work effort for this. and, let's face it, I'm no Chris McFeely.