Video Review of Construct-Bots Dino Riders Scorn and Crosshairs

Since it's relevant to the new news about the Strafe Evolution 2-Pack, I'll repost this in case anyone missed it, cuz it's just too hilarious to miss out on.

Sabrblade wrote:Ya'll wanna see something funny?

On the side of the Strafe Evolution 2-Pack's packaging is some box art for the "classic" version of the character. One would think this would either be new art for the repackaged, repurposed DOTM Rav figure, or simply some recycled art of G1 Swoop. It's neither.

Behold:



























Pic originally from here - https://www.flickr.com/photos/124037884@N05/14074500097/

Well, it is G1 Strafe's original box art...

Well I made it to my closest TRU and didnt find any two packs. But as usual TRU was loaded with all lines of TF stuff shelfwarming due to overpricing. Plenty of the wave 1 deluxes if you dont mind spending 17.99 a pop. I guess TRU is a great last resort if youre desperate to get the figure without going online.

Rated X wrote:Well I made it to my closest TRU and didnt find any two packs. But as usual TRU was loaded with all lines of TF stuff shelfwarming due to overpricing. Plenty of the wave 1 deluxes if you dont mind spending 17.99 a pop. I guess TRU is a great last resort if youre desperate to get the figure without going online.

But they have a lowest price guarantee that you can use by just going there with a flyer or internet printout from a competing website.

That deluxe price sounds high but is it in US or Canadian?

This is only the second time this mold has been available at retail first time it was prime second it was Ultra Magnus.

Jestermon wrote:This is only the second time this mold has been available at retail first time it was prime second it was Ultra Magnus.

What are you talking about?

Sabrblade wrote:

Jestermon wrote:This is only the second time this mold has been available at retail first time it was prime second it was Ultra Magnus.

What are you talking about?

I think it's the Evolutions two-pack of Optimus Prime, specifically the Classics part of the set.

...I think.

When I hit reply on that story this is the thread that popped up I though it was pretty self explanatory too Mindmaster.

I meant third time though, unless there was some other retail exclusive I missed aside from the Target Ultra Magnus one.

Jestermon wrote:This is only the second time this mold has been available at retail first time it was prime second it was Ultra Magnus.

For Classics Prime, for regular US retail you'd be one off: third time if store exclusives are counted. However, if we're counting Japanese and convention exclusive releases, the list is... rather big and I'd rather not post it. All I'm gonna say is that this is its 11th or 12th release total

Thinking about the prime 2 pack: the alt modes are ironic as they would go better with the opposite bot modes.

Exactly, but that isn't a reason for people to complain about it being overused when it's hardly been available at US retail for most people that hadn't shelled out large amounts for those.

Jestermon wrote:Exactly, but that isn't a reason for people to complain about it being overused when it's hardly been available at US retail for most people that hadn't shelled out large amounts for those.

It's not just about availability, but also about what the tooling possibly has gone through over its many uses. I'm assuming you've heard of mold deterioration, so I won't go there. Speaking of which, I suspect that Hasbro and TakaraTomy have taken the liberty of restoring parts of the toolings, given how desired the Classics toy seems to be. Definitely worth asking at BotCon.

Molds do deteriorate, but I'm hopeful that this one will be fine. Personally I'm not complaining about a new release for the classics Prime. I think it's about time for such a good mold. Also, has anyone thought that perhaps Hasbro and Takara/Tomy have thier own copies of the mold? Perhaps Takara's is all loose from repeated production (it seems typical of Takara to over-do it) but Hasbro's may have little problems.

Just a thought there.

As an aside: I know Takara's really puts some money into paint applications and stuff and they direct thier toys towards the older collector (makes sense sue to the demographic) however, I'm not terribly impressed with them as an innovator. Sure they do some great decos but how many Takara exclusive molds have been any good? Look at the Transformers Go! toys, I know there are fans, but to me they look horrible. I also wasnt a fan of Takara/Tomy strapping posts all over the Prime line just so they could sell their little minicons. This rant doesnt really have a place here but I seen very little real innovation from them.

Yes, each plastic injection mold lasts for only so many uses, but that's not the point. Hasbro and Takara can make more molds when the old ones are used up. Mold "degradation" is a fandom boogeyman. It's not a real issue. There's no such thing as using a "mold" too much and then it's gone forever. What you need to be concerned with is systemic quality control issues when a certain batch of figures are produced. QC problems can be due to a number of different issues at the time of production, and how many times Hasbro and Takara have repainted or retooled a mold in the past isn't really one of them, not in the way most people think.

Optimizzy wrote:Molds do deteriorate, but I'm hopeful that this one will be fine. Personally I'm not complaining about a new release for the classics Prime. I think it's about time for such a good mold. Also, has anyone thought that perhaps Hasbro and Takara/Tomy have thier own copies of the mold? Perhaps Takara's is all loose from repeated production (it seems typical of Takara to over-do it) but Hasbro's may have little problems.

Just a thought there.

As an aside: I know Takara's really puts some money into paint applications and stuff and they direct thier toys towards the older collector (makes sense sue to the demographic) however, I'm not terribly impressed with them as an innovator. Sure they do some great decos but how many Takara exclusive molds have been any good? Look at the Transformers Go! toys, I know there are fans, but to me they look horrible. I also wasnt a fan of Takara/Tomy strapping posts all over the Prime line just so they could sell their little minicons. This rant doesnt really have a place here but I seen very little real innovation from them.

Takara's Go! line and Prime minicons may not be so innovative to us because they are directed towards Japanese kids, they are a whole different culture than the American kids so they may not appeal to us much. But I wouldn't say Takara lacks innovation, take a look at all the Masterpeice figures. They are targeted at collectors, highly innovative, and amazing! I guess it's a matter of perspective really Sorry for getting all off topic, just wanted to say that

I'll probably get this. I never got the original Classics Prime, but I have the US Ultra Magnus. I love the mold. I'm not super crazy about the vehicle paint-job, but IMO the robot mode looks better than the 2006 version.

Evasion Prime...he's alright. Better than the first release, but I'm not getting into the movie toys again, unless they put one out that really POPS. Or a better painted version of DOTM Soundwave.

A little piece of not big news, but news nonetheless, featuring the upcoming Transformers: Age of Extinction Grimlock, from the Target exclusive two-pack with Silver Knight Optimus Prime, from Facebook page Planet Iacon. The figure is a repaint of Platinum Voyager FoC Grimlock, with the logo changed from Lightning Strike Coalition to Autobot, and some extra/different paint apps and chrome. Check it out below!

Va'al wrote:A little piece of not big news, but news nonetheless, featuring the upcoming Transformers: Age of Extinction Grimlock, from the Target exclusive two-pack with Silver Knight Optimus Prime, from Facebook page Planet Iacon. The figure is a repaint of Platinum Voyager FoC Grimlock, with the logo changed from Lightning Strike Coalition to Autobot, and some extra/different paint apps and chrome. Check it out below!

There is no curse in Elvish, Entish, or the tongues of Men for the amount of want I'm feeling now.

Òoooooo someone broke open new figure not doing there job I see new figures on wooden pallete in bqckground thats a no no

dragons wrote:Òoooooo someone broke open new figure not doing there job I see new figures on wooden pallete in bqckground thats a no no

What?

Fellow Seibertron.com user Transformersmegazord has just returned from the BOTS convention in the Netherlands, and brought back some Takara Transformers: Lost Age loot! Check out below a video review for the Japanese version of Leader Class Optimus Prime - you can find the Hasbro Age of Extinction version here and in our galleries - with more chrome than you can shake a chromed stick at!

looks like they forgot to paint the center of grimlocks chest.. that looks terrible.

TimothyR wrote:looks like they forgot to paint the center of grimlocks chest.. that looks terrible.

Yeah, that's just primer!

I do not like the rainbow legs on the bot mode, what were they thinking?

Ravage XK wrote:

TimothyR wrote:looks like they forgot to paint the center of grimlocks chest.. that looks terrible.

Yeah, that's just primer!

I do not like the rainbow legs on the bot mode, what were they thinking?

They were thinking exactly of this:

Well, its hideous. Way too much colour used there, looks like Lego legs.

Thanks for sharing guys , i honestly love this version , cant believe people hate the paint lol, still thats the fun in this line one mans rubbish is another mans treasure

Oh yeah, that Grimlock is going to be a hard one to find. Damn, do I want it, though!

Seibertron wrote:I love this comment from people. After 30 uses of the Classics Starscream mold, I think we should be able to finally move away from this thought process about molds degrading after time. Those molds are amazing and they will last the test of time. The only question should really be whether or not the original mold was made of "sturdy stuff" or made from a lesser material that gives way after time.

The Classic Starscream mold was heavily retooled a couple of years after its first use, probably to account for mold degradation. There is direct evidence in the toys themselves that the molds were retooled. (Look inside the cavity in the jets' forearms where their fists tuck away. Compare, say, Classics Starscream to Universe Starscream. Note the differently-shaped details.)

Take a look at the Takara reissue version of the G1 Combaticons some time. There are pock marks all over those toys as a result of the molds being reused repeatedly. Do a comparison with vintage G1 units and the difference is mind-boggling.

Mold degradation isn't some random fan theory; it's reality.


Zob

Va'al wrote:

Might those be Sunstorm boxes in the background

Felzbug already made a review of this guy. Why was there no news post about his review? There was one about his Sharkticon Megatron review some time ago, so why not this one?

KirbyForce1 wrote:Felzbug already made a review of this guy. Why was there no news post about his review? There was one about his Sharkticon Megatron review some time ago, so why not this one?

There was I think. Isn't this the Target exclusive that's packaged with the DotM Deluxe Prime that's all chromed out?

I dont know why they didnt just paint him like this to begin with. Too bad the upgrades for this figure are a different color plastic. Ill probably buy it anyway just to see how he looks with the wings.

Rated X wrote:I dont know why they didnt just paint him like this to begin with.

Because it was originally a WFC figure, not a G1 homage.

GuyIncognito wrote:

Rated X wrote:I dont know why they didnt just paint him like this to begin with.

Because it was originally a WFC figure, not a G1 homage.

And the deco might have been too kiddie for a video game that's supposed to be edgy with warfare and aimed at older audiences.

Optimizzy wrote:

KirbyForce1 wrote:Felzbug already made a review of this guy. Why was there no news post about his review? There was one about his Sharkticon Megatron review some time ago, so why not this one?

There was I think. Isn't this the Target exclusive that's packaged with the DotM Deluxe Prime that's all chromed out?

I could not find any previous Target Grimlock or Takara Leader Prime reviews in the news section, could you please show me a link?

We're working on trying to get as much news out as possible, but some things just slip!

GuyIncognito wrote:

Rated X wrote:I dont know why they didnt just paint him like this to begin with.

Because it was originally a WFC figure, not a G1 homage.

And who's to say WFC/FOC characters arent homages ?

Lets see...

Turns into a T-Rex - check

Named Grimlock - check

Head with faceplate - check

Arms form T-Rex's legs - check

Grey and gold - check

Other than the added neo-weirdness to cater to the video game crowd, how is it not a G1 homage ?

Rated X wrote:

GuyIncognito wrote:

Rated X wrote:I dont know why they didnt just paint him like this to begin with.

Because it was originally a WFC figure, not a G1 homage.

And who's to say WFC/FOC characters arent homages ?

Lets see...

Turns into a T-Rex - check

Named Grimlock - check

Head with faceplate - check

Arms form T-Rex's legs - check

Grey and gold - check

Other than the added neo-weirdness to cater to the video game crowd, how is it not a G1 homage ?

The original release wasn't a 100% homage as it was missing the red pelvis and the colors on the legs. At the most it was 75%

Let me ask you this, X. Would you be asking the same question if, instead of the FOC figure, they used the Animated Grimlock mold for this deco instead?

I'm not denying that FOC Grimlock was a G1 homage, but since Animated Grimlock also meets the same criteria (sans the mouthplate part) you've listed, would you still be asking the same about this deco if it had been given to a new use of the Animated mold instead of the FOC mold?

Sometimes I think Rated X argues just for the sake of arguing. The Generations Grimlock figure was designed to resemble FoC Grimlock, not G1 Grimlock. Here's a pic of the character. Notice the lack of "G1 style" details. For example, no red, green, and blue on the legs. Also notice the orange (not red) sword. This is what the Generations figure was designed to represent.

Looks like Grimlock jizzed his pants .

Sabrblade wrote:Let me ask you this, X. Would you be asking the same question if, instead of the FOC figure, they used the Animated Grimlock mold for this deco instead?

I'm not denying that FOC Grimlock was a G1 homage, but since Animated Grimlock also meets the same criteria (sans the mouthplate part) you've listed, would you still be asking the same about this deco if it had been given to a new use of the Animated mold instead of the FOC mold?

Well let me start off by saying that I actually bought the animated mold of Grimlock because at the time I thought it was going to be the only time the Dinobots were going to get any kind of love from Hasbro. And yes, I would have loved to have that deco on the animated mold at the time when I bought it. It's just cooler in my personal opinion. On the flip side, I hate the idea of making the AOE Dinobots in G1 colors. Theyre so far from homages that I like them in the bright colors better. That Takara AOE Grimlock and Slag in G1 colors is like putting lipstick on a pig.

I would also have loved to have an Animated Starscream in G1 white instead of that horrible bluish purple with red stripes. If Hasbro could make that happen (and animated Thundercracker) Ive got my cash ready.

GuyIncognito wrote:Sometimes I think Rated X argues just for the sake of arguing. The Generations Grimlock figure was designed to resemble FoC Grimlock, not G1 Grimlock. Here's a pic of the character. Notice the lack of "G1 style" details. For example, no red, green, and blue on the legs. Also notice the orange (not red) sword. This is what the Generations figure was designed to represent.

Sugarcoat all you want, but FOC Grimlock IS a homage to G1 Grimlock. Did they make him "neo" to make him different from G1 ? Sure they did. But if you go back to my checklist of G1 Grimlock traits, it's all there...

It's a homage.

Now if you want to talk about AOE Grimlock, youre arguement might be more valid. AOE Grimlock is a homage by name only. I dont even consider it a T-Rex (dino ears WTF ?)

Again, yes, each plastic injection mold lasts for only so many uses, but that's not the point. Hasbro and Takara can make more molds when the old ones are used up. Mold "degradation" is a fandom boogeyman. It's not a real issue, especially not in this age of manufacturing technology. There's no such thing as using a "mold" too much and then it's gone forever. What you need to be concerned with is systemic quality control issues when a certain batch of figures are produced. QC problems can be due to a number of different issues at the time of production, and how many times Hasbro and Takara have repainted or retooled a mold in the past isn't really one of them, not in the way most people think.

So, in review:
1) Yes, molds do "degrade" over time, or rather, for each time they are used.
2) Molds made in late 70's and early 80's are likely more costly for Hasbro and Takara to reproduce, so they stretch as much as they can from each, and you get wonky reissues like the G1 Combaticons.
3) Toys are made with computer technology now. The schematics for plastic injection molds are stored on computer, and can be pretty easily recreated thanks to modern manufacturing techniques and technology.
4) You could get a toy that's wonky because it was one of the latter made in a mold that was at the end of its production cycle, but that's not the only mold that exists. When it's done, it's thrown out, and a new one is used (or made if needed).

There is no reason at all to believe that, for instance, the upcoming Classics Prime redeco, is going to be riddled with poor QC because the mold was originally manufactured for 2006. If you get one that has problems, it might be because it was printed in a mold that was almost used up, or it could be any number of other reasons, like poorly prepared batches of plastic, manual manufacturing errors, taking the plastics out of the molds incorrectly, etc. Later runs of the toy might end up using a fresh mold, so two months into it's retail life, you might find better samples out there if the initial ones were problematic. Like I said, "mold degradation" is a boogeyman to transformers fans. It's an often blamed but poorly understood phenomenon that helps people place blame somewhere for their unsatisfactory toys because they don't know better.

A final thought for any who think that manufacturing replacement molds or even reverse-engineering toys back into useable molds for mass production is prohibitively expensive for Takara and Hasbro: Why is the market for high quality knock-offs so profitable?

ScottyP wrote:

Va'al wrote:

Might those be Sunstorm boxes in the background

I'd like to think if that were true we'd be getting pictures of that instead of Grimlock right now.

Emerje

Via YouTube user Silver Knight, we have a sneak peak of the Age of Extinction Kre-O sets "Lockdown Air Raid", "Optimus Prime Dino Hauler", "Grimlock Street Attack", and "Galvatron Factory Battle"! Check out each video to get a quick look at these Kre-O sets.

Wolfman Jake wrote:Again, yes, each plastic injection mold lasts for only so many uses, but that's not the point.

I want to preface my response by saying that I'm largely unaware of the history of this discussion forum, so I have no idea how many times or to what extent this subject has been discussed. I'm not even sure if you were replying to me directly or not. If I'm completely misunderstanding your position, I apologize in advance, but I do take strong issue with some of the things you're saying.

Hasbro and Takara can make more molds when the old ones are used up. Mold "degradation" is a fandom boogeyman. It's not a real issue, especially not in this age of manufacturing technology.

I don't see how this line of reasoning follows. Production molds have a finite life span. They are made of metal alloys with limited tensile strength. They can only endure so many production runs before they begin to show signs of heavy wear.

Most toys enjoy a small, comfortable production run of perhaps 100,000 or 200,000 and then their production molds are recycled. That's the industry standard. More rarely, the molds will be pressed into service multiple times. Now, obviously, there are alternative styles of mass-production (LEGO has been producing essentially the same bricks since the 1970's; Mattel's line of Barbie dolls or Hot Wheels cars are, by and large, all the same doll with different clothing or same car with different paint) but typically, a toy represents a unique character, enjoys a unique sculpt, and is quietly retired from service.

Transformers really is the exception to the rule. In recent years we've gotten new versions of toys that have been around since the G1 days, or earlier, and have already been produced dozens of times over. That's not normal. If you study the toys closely, particularly the ones with multiple mold-mates, there is almost always evidence of mold degradation.

There's no such thing as using a "mold" too much and then it's gone forever.

Then is there some other reason you're aware of why Takara has never been able to provide us with G1 reissues of Mirage and Sunstreaker and the Dinobots? Not being confrontational; I'm genuinely asking the question.

Molds made in late 70's and early 80's are likely more costly for Hasbro and Takara to reproduce, so they stretch as much as they can from each, and you get wonky reissues like the G1 Combaticons.

The Combaticons are a great example of this phenomenon because those poor toys have been trotted out so many damn times:

1) G1 Japan edition (launching Onslaught)
2) G1 die-cast versions (neutered launcher)
3) G1 plastic versions
4) Euro Classics (no rub symbol indents)
5) Battle Gaia
6) G2 editions
7) Car Robots Valdigus
8] Robots in Disguise Ruination
9) Armada all-grey "Urban Camo"
10) Wal-Mart "Tiger Force"
11) Takara G1 reissues

The molds were subjected to many modifications and tweaks over the years that it's not even funny. By the time the toys finally came full circle, you got G1 reissues with almost completely different functionality than the vintage G1 units. Some of the changes had nothing to do with mold degradation (adding weapon mounts for G2 Onslaught; giving the Car Robots weapons the ability to combine together) but some changes are absolutely the result of mold fatigue. There are pock marks all over the reissue Combaticons where the molds have begun to degrade. Weapons and accessories no longer fit correctly (Swindle can't hold his own pistol; Bruticus's chest plate no longer locks down).

Now, obviously, a lot of the toys that we get nowadays don't have such a long and sordid history because there aren't too many Transformers on store shelves that have been made available since 1986. We're going to get a new version of Beast Wars Terrorsaur pretty soon (in the form of a one-headed Age of Extinction Strafe), though, who is only a decade younger than the Combaticons, and whose production mold has also seen repeated use. I'll be very interested to get that toy and study it.

Like I said, "mold degradation" is a boogeyman to transformers fans. It's an often blamed but poorly understood phenomenon that helps people place blame somewhere for their unsatisfactory toys because they don't know better.

If there's a long history of fans blaming poorly-designed or badly-engineered toys on simple mold fatigue, I'm not aware of it. I won't speak to that point. With that said, mold degradation is a real phenomenon, demonstrable and measurable, and it surprises me that you're the second person I've encountered now who seems to think it doesn't exist.

A final thought for any who think that manufacturing replacement molds or even reverse-engineering toys back into useable molds for mass production is prohibitively expensive for Takara and Hasbro: Why is the market for high quality knock-offs so profitable?

The short answer is because Zhong Jin is exploiting a consumer demand that the official sources have failed to address.

Of course, Zhong Jin toys don't have to conform to safety regulations, are not subject to drop testing, and don't have to go through trademark approval. They don't pay licensing fees. Perhaps most significantly, they take shortcuts. Some of their products are quite excellent but some of them do not meet the standards of quality I would expect from a genuine Hasbro or Takara product.

My counter-question(s) to you would be: If reverse-engineering molds isn't too expensive for Hasbro or Takara to consider, then why don't they just do it all the time? Why does Hasbro always, always wait for Takara to spend the money to test and/or restore a mold before they reissue a toy themselves? Why are so many reissues of older toys, especially ones with many mold-mates, always riddled with production flaws that did not exist on the original releases? Why would Takara spend the money to retool things like G1 Jazz's face or Cliffjumper's face if it weren't necessary? Can you offer some alternate explanation for the pock marks and poorly-fitting accessories that is not related to mold fatigue?


Zob

Clicked the "Submit" button too many times. Don't mind me. I'm clearly Internet illiterate.

Sorry, duplicate post. Just ignore this.

Courtesy of the Dengeki Hobby Magazine twitter feed we have our first look at the Transformers: Age of Extinction Optimus Prime Real Figure by FuRyu. Check out the prototype mirrored below. Not surprisingly they also appear to be developing a Bumblebee, just a placeholder image at the moment.

Zobovor, you seemed to clip out certain bullet points from my post while neglecting the others that I believe would have answered your questions before you asked them. Suffice it to say, yes there is a long history of blaming mold degradation or "fatigue" for QC issues, especially if a certain mold has been released more than once. But, my point is not that molds don't wear out and become unusable, it's that they don't wear out and become irreplaceable. More molds can be made when the older ones wear out, and maintaining fidelity with the original product is easier than ever. It's a non-issue not because it doesn't exist, but because it doesn't affect the manufacture of toys in the catastrophic way many fans believe it does. This is especially true of anything made in the last decade or so.

As for the original G1 toys, again, I suspect that it's a lot harder to reverse engineer them for some reason or another, maybe because the original molds are quite scare, so finding good "source material" to manufacture new molds may take a lot of resources. For instance, Sunstreaker was never remolded or redecoed at all, so maybe the original molds are so scare, they've been misplaced over time. On the other hand, you have molds that never say die, like G1 Optimus and Soundwave, which have each gone through several revisions, but nonetheless, endure.

Even if reverse engineering a mold takes money, it must still not be that prohibitive of a cost that knock-off/bootlegs can't turn a tidy profit. If it didn't, no one would bother. It's not just that a hole in the market is there to fill, it's that it's easy to fill, that makes it a worthwhile venture for knock-off manufacturers. However, I think you bring up an excellent point about the licensing, safety testing, and whatnot, that can increase costs on the R&D end of things. While reverse engineering a mold may not cost THAT much objectively, it may not turn enough of a profit for Takara/Hasbros bottom line (such things tend to upset the board of investors). Think of how many reissue G1 Sunstreakers would have to be sold to equal the profits from just "High Octane Bumblebee" from the Generations Age of Extinction line. That said, the modern molds that are getting a lot of use, Classics Optimus Prime, Classics Starscream (et al. Seekers), and even Bumblebee are cash cows for Hasbro, so yeah, it's worth it to keep replacing those molds to produce more product. Kids (and collectors) can't get enough of the big characters. So, you can see how eyes can roll when another retool or repaint of a popular mold comes along and people panic that it will flop around like a rag doll and fit together like a Sweedish CD rack, just because they've seen that mold before.