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I know this is big enough to warrant a mention in the regular Toy Forum, it seems every time the debate pops up in here, it's guaranteed to spiral out of control. As such,

Original thread in the 3rd Party and KO Forum

Do as you wish.

When I go buy an MP, and this may happen some time after it's been released, I have no idea if I'm buying a legit TF or not. And it's not safe to even ask the seller, as they may have no idea that they are selling a KO! That's the problem with KO's: they are NOT offered as a cheap alternative; they are offered as a COUNTERFEIT PRODUCT SOLD AS OFFICIAL!

Especially when we look at THIS KO. It's clearly not marked to distinguish itself as a cheaper Sideswipe. So let's not go into how "KO's offer collectors cheap alternatives". That would only be true IF KO's were sold as cheap alternatives. Most of us do not have the required knowledge to tell a good KO box apart from an official TF box.

Eagleblaster wrote:This might increase the ko problem but for the collector who does get the original toy can see its value go up, up, up.

I have to echo the sentiment of "collecting to amass a fortune" is a bit of a mental illness (my label). Look at this objectively: while it's TRUE that TF's generally go up in value, the increase is MARGINAL. We're talking about a small profit, unless you mean to hoard a large amount of TF toys. I consider collecting to make money akin to a mental illness because there are better ways to make money. Investing in almost anything will make more money than hoarding TF's (i.e. bonds, gold, big name stocks like Caterpillar, etc.). Imagine if I said we should save CEREAL BOXES for collector's value/to make money. While it may happen that a cereal box will sell for a lot more than originally marked, that's really no way to make your fortune.

Reference the 90s comic implosion as a good example. Collecting to make money leads to junk sales that hurt the industry in the long run.

alldarker wrote:If you are in the toy collecting game only to see your toys go up in value, you should really start wondering if you are in it for the right reasons. That attitude only leads to scalping: abusing the real or perceived 'limited' or 'exclusive' nature of the availability of a toy.

This. The scalpers/poachers exist because of this attitude that "TF's are super valuable and will help me get rich!!!!!!" I don't disagree that hoarding and selling later can be profitable; I'm asking how much blunt force trauma to the head does one need to receive in order to believe that THIS is how we will retire young and wealthy.

Seibertron wrote:The mentality that KOs are OK because you can't afford or find the original absolutely baffles me. It's the same mentality that rationalizes 3rd party products. But those of you who are fans of one and not the other somehow have it worked out in your heads that it is indeed different. It's unfortunate that people try to justify all of this.

I love you, but I'm having trouble following you. So you're saying that if I b*tch about Metroplex being unavailable (or too expensive), it's wrong to say that 3rd Party and/or KO's are okay? I mean, for one thing, I wouldn't mix up 3rd Parties and KO producers in the same camp! They're really not the same people, and I think their priorities don't align so closely.
Certainly, it could take many more DECADES to see a proper Devastator release, for example, so the availability of 3rd Party Devastators is not only necessary, but also imperative: it's the 3rd Party guys who are sticking a hot coal under HasTak's butt. Without that pressure, there would be less MP's and Encore's, IMO.

Doesn't bother me much at all. If it's cheap I get a hankerin' for an MP Sideswipe, I'll happily buy a KO.

Yeah, I saw a bunch of these on eBay and assumed they were either KOs or factory leftovers.

I missed out on Sideswipe, if Takara does another round of MP-12 then I will get one.

But if not, and I could get one of these KOs for a decent price then sure.

Seibertron wrote:The mentality that KOs are OK because you can't afford or find the original absolutely baffles me. It's the same mentality that rationalizes 3rd party products. But those of you who are fans of one and not the other somehow have it worked out in your heads that it is indeed different. It's unfortunate that people try to justify all of this.

Okay, I wanted to just do my brief spiel about preservation etc. while agreeing that this particular KO was pushing it timing-wise and that the "cost" argument is indeed a lame defense of KOs, and not resort to being an ass to make/refute a point...but apparently we all have vastly different Platonic "forms" of "3rd Party product" in their heads. Seib, if it's really the exact same mentality, then I presume we can look forward to you posting galleries of mass-released Has/Tak toys of the Autoscout, transforming G1 Arcee, and every type of Quintesson sometime soon, yes? True, no one is entitled to personally own cheap representations of every TF character/thing they ever liked, but considering it's been almost three decades and those haven't yet officially happened, shouldn't those characters/things exist in some physical form while the fans who care about them are still alive?

Just barely back on topic, was anything said at BotCon about Hasbro releasing any of the Masterpiece car guys? Or are we all just assuming a real MP Sideswipe will only be released by Takara?

It's a little hard to believe that Seibertron would be against 3rd Party products, considering how many are sold and advertised on/off of this site. All of the online shops really pump the 3rd Party stuff, and I'm sure it has something to do with popularity (and profit margins).

That said, this is probably a topic best left for non-site owners, as I wouldn't want to put Seibertron in any awkward situations with sponsors, HasTak, or whomever.

I blew the pic up for ID purpose, original eyes are more triangle at the edge while the KO are more like rectangle:

REMINATOR wrote:I blew the pic up for ID purpose, original eyes are more triangle at the edge while the KO are more like rectangle:

Wait, WHAT?!? The real ones are seriously all evil-squinting like that? I'm not sure I believe that until some better galleries get posted, but IF that's true, I'll gladly take my chances with the KO. Dammit, I was trying to fly right on this one too...

The KO uses the Tigertrack head (which is Sideswipe's helmet and Red Alert's face). There is also a difference in the holographic Official Product sticker.

Bumblevivisector wrote:Wait, WHAT?!? The real ones are seriously all evil-squinting like that? I'm not sure I believe that until some better galleries get posted, but IF that's true, I'll gladly take my chances with the KO. Dammit, I was trying to fly right on this one too...

Yes that is true

i'll amend my first post a bit.

i think there is a place for KO's.. but ONLY if they are clearly labeled as KO's, and enough time has passed where the official release has run its course. so i'd say, in maybe a year and a half to 2 years (or depending on whether hasbro releases a version) would it be appropriate to release this. and again, it has to be CLEARLY sold as a KO.

3rd parties and knockoffs are completely different. however, there were those knock off coneheads, which i don't agree with, it's basically a KO of the masterpiece seeker mold with some changes. i still believe that takara has the opportunity of giving us the rest of the seekers. but other than that, i don't think they're alike whatsoever. like it's been said before. 3rd parties offer accessories that hasbro won't give us, add on sets that hasbro won't give us, proper combiners that hasbro won't give us. and in no way have i seen 3rd parties attempting to compete with anything hasbro has done..
if anything, 3rd parties have helped hasbro out a bit. giving us add on sets for the combiners that hasbro has released, like superion and bruticus. a lot of the third party products help hasbro's toys. unlike KO's where a lot of them trick the fandom and directly compete with an official product.
and we've seen third party companies back off when there is the potential for competition, my main example would be with the 3rd party MP soundwave. we saw several prototypes and whatnot.. but once takara announced an official release, that figure was quashed.

Just a minor heads-up.

I just checked my Lambor, and found that under certain lighting (dim or "warm" light), the hologram can look a little like the fake one. I brought the box out into the patio, and one then did I see the hologram.

Good thing I bought the very first batch (so it can't have been a KO), and checked that my Sideswipe has the original's "evil eyes."

Somewhat related, does Lambor's face look better in reality? Something about it just looks off to me in most photos I've seen. Like it's too detailed or overly molded.

Also, can his head be popped off if there's ever a third party alternative?

LOST Cybertronian wrote:The KO uses the Tigertrack head (which is Sideswipe's helmet and Red Alert's face). There is also a difference in the holographic Official Product sticker.

Can you describe the sticker difference a little more? Is the rainbow/prismatic affect absent from the KO sticker?

Are we certain these are KO versus unsanctioned releases? I realize that I am splitting hairs, but it essentially seems like someone stole a bunch of irregulars and defects and is selling them.

Stormrider wrote:Can you describe the sticker difference a little more? Is the rainbow/prismatic affect absent from the KO sticker?

Are we certain these are KO versus unsanctioned releases? I realize that I am splitting hairs, but it essentially seems like someone stole a bunch of irregulars and defects and is selling them.

Unfortunately that is one I cannot find a lot of info on.

Stormrider wrote:Are we certain these are KO versus unsanctioned releases? I realize that I am splitting hairs, but it essentially seems like someone stole a bunch of irregulars and defects and is selling them.

Here's another thought, if it's not a KO, why was it written something like "Iambogrithi Canluch"? I realize those words weren't really clear from the photo, so I'll give the benefit of doubt. We'll find out more as people get their.

I learned from a friend about a KO mp sideswipe. I eventually did my own online research on the matter, and the forums/sites ended up pointing to taobao as the source. Taobao is an auction site. People can list prices their way down the market price to scam people just like they do on ebay. Taobao is notorious for that if you are not careful.

I checked out the other sites that forum/sites pointed to. They also ended up at Taobao. Many of those are pre-orders. the 100 yuan to 200 yuan down are pre order payment. None refundable if you cancelled. They will charge you the remaining balance once the item comes in before they ship it to you.

Differences in the heads. As a manufacturer , If I want a slight adjustment when the parts (evil eyes head sideswipe) is out of stock already, I'll put in the head part of what ever I have on hand. It just happens to be the red alert head because I have an extra run of it made for tiger tracks laying around. Also just because a manufacturer made a slight adjustment to sticker doesn't even mean its a ko.

The hologram sticker difference. same reasoning as above. The old rainbow type sticker run out. So they made a new one. Logical reasoning/proof: check your cellphone's battery. Nokia has at least 2 versions out in hologram stickers. one with the hand , another with the the word "nokia". both security stickers are originals. Nobody crying one sticker proves it real and the other different sticker is a fake. Same with Bandai Saint Seiya Myth Figures. Japan local release has a different local hologram foil sticker on the box than those being release elsewhere in Asia. You don't see people crying knock offs just because of it.

Back in the 80's to 90's - slight color differentiation, slight mold adjustment are expected during a production run . could be from mold degradation to the upper execs wanting it to look better. Its toys,people - not food. So slight adjustments, tweaking here and there are normal . Yet they are all considered as originals. These days, a slight adjustment happens and people shout like hell its a bloody knock off! sheesh....

I held a lot of Kos in my life time. I buy, collect and also get them for friends. The suppose KO MP12 in my opinion,versus the evidence at hand, (and I hope you guys can respect that,) is not a KO, but just a modified sideswipe with a new head.

Then explain the recently announced second production run of MP-12, due for release around December/January, while the "KO's" should be out already

TakaraTomy is not the type of company to use other parts for toys on a larger scale (like the head), and bootleggers have come a long way. Check out their "Chinese G1 Reissues" to see what I mean.

I'am aware of those ko G1 toys. And again, to my knowledge, Takara does use parts of other toys on toys they deemed fit to use it.

The current one out could be an Asia version or HK release and not the Japan release.

DreadstarCybph wrote:I'am aware of those ko G1 toys. And again, to my knowledge, Takara does use parts of other toys on toys they deemed fit to use it.

The current one out could be a Asia version or HK release and not the Japan release.

You're being too optimistic here. If that were true, we would have caught wind of that even before their release via the site sponsors.

As for the parts, give me at least one example of an original sharing at least one retooled part with its retool (like Sideswipe having, in essence, Tigertrack's noggin).

So guys, will there be an authentic second production run by Takara for sure?

Do they have a site, facebook page, twitter, anything where they make announcements like this?

Cyberpath wrote:So guys, will there be an authentic second production run by Takara for sure?

Do they have a site, facebook page, twitter, anything where they make announcements like this?

BBTS has announced it, a very reputable site sponsor.

DreadstarCybph wrote:I learned from a friend about a KO mp sideswipe. I eventually did my own online research on the matter, and the forums/sites ended up pointing to taobao as the source. Taobao is an auction site. People can list prices their way down the market price to scam people just like they do on ebay. Taobao is notorious for that if you are not careful.

I checked out the other sites that forum/sites pointed to. They also ended up at Taobao. Many of those are pre-orders. the 100 yuan to 200 yuan down are pre order payment. None refundable if you cancelled. They will charge you the remaining balance once the item comes in before they ship it to you.

Differences in the heads. As a manufacturer , If I want a slight adjustment when the parts (evil eyes head sideswipe) is out of stock already, I'll put in the head part of what ever I have on hand. It just happens to be the red alert head because I have an extra run of it made for tiger tracks laying around. Also just because a manufacturer made a slight adjustment to sticker doesn't even mean its a ko.

The hologram sticker difference. same reasoning as above. The old rainbow type sticker run out. So they made a new one. Logical reasoning/proof: check your cellphone's battery. Nokia has at least 2 versions out in hologram stickers. one with the hand , another with the the word "nokia". both security stickers are originals. Nobody crying one sticker proves it real and the other different sticker is a fake. Same with Bandai Saint Seiya Myth Figures. Japan local release has a different local hologram foil sticker on the box than those being release elsewhere in Asia. You don't see people crying knock offs just because of it.

Back in the 80's to 90's - slight color differentiation, slight mold adjustment are expected during a production run . could be from mold degradation to the upper execs wanting it to look better. Its toys,people - not food. So slight adjustments, tweaking here and there are normal . Yet they are all considered as originals. These days, a slight adjustment happens and people shout like hell its a bloody knock off! sheesh....

I held a lot of Kos in my life time. I buy, collect and also get them for friends. The suppose KO MP12 in my opinion,versus the evidence at hand, (and I hope you guys can respect that,) is not a KO, but just a modified sideswipe with a new head.

Erm, nope.
Companies don't do that anymore, British companies used to do that during the 60s till 80s, but not anymore. It's asign of bad craftsmanship and low quality. In this day and age that no-longer works, the parts thing or using different packaging.

If this where a non-Japanese variant we would have known already. Please supply us with examples of Transformers ever using parts that have simply been left over from a different toy. You won't, since every mold has all its parts. Or you know supply us with your sources, because right now you sound like a certain someone I've had a couple of run ins before who wanted us to believe the most outlandish stuff with no evidence or sources at all only that he had done "extensive research".

These days, modern toys ..like DOTM tomahawk , DOTM vortex then the GDO Springer - different heads but all shared the same body.

I checked the sites which that chinese forum pointed to - which for some strange reason, I don't know who translated what with what, that he ended up with a translation that was saying its a knock off . I can read chinese and price on the site, stated it was a non refunadable downpayment for the toy. and once it arrives, subsequent amounts will be charged to him before it will be shipped.

I think, the only guys who can clarify this is the people at Takara Tomy. Whether indeed there is a KO MP12 sideswipe out in the market. After all. I might be wrong ^_^

Btw, I'm not that guy, whoever he is. what was he trying to convince you guys with?

I'm just stating my own conclusions that I arrived to when I followed up the sites they pointed as the source of their news which ended up in Taobao. Now if their news ended up at a reputable store site well known for selling class a knock offs, I will immediately say the news of ko sideswipe is 100% true. But it ended up in Taobao. Taobao is a auction/"buy it now" site like ebay. Taobao has original and ko tfs being sold by different members.

my source: The local TF sites in my country are pointing to the American TF sites as source. The American TF sites (both selling and forums) are pointing to the Chinese Toy Forum . The Chinese Toy Forum site pointed towards Taobao. I checked the posting which states pre order / down payment. I didn't use a translator. I can read Chinese. I'm a 2nd generation Chinese living in the Philippines. Born and grew up here. So let's not conclude that I'm some devious mastermind living somewhere trying to convince the tf community that there is no KO MP sideswipe shall we. I'm just not convinced at the moment. I might be wrong.

DreadstarCybph wrote:These days, modern toys ..like DOTM tomahawk , DOTM vortex then the GDO Springer - different heads but all shared the same body.

That's called a repainted retool, hardly the same as re-releasing a toy as a second run with the head of its repaint. By going by that logic Generations Sandstorm would be a reissue of Springer and still be Springer.