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[Counterpunch]

Limiting the availability of major characters like Scourge and Thundercracker to the wealthy and the irresponsible is just... grrr.

Where is the line?

What constitutes 'major character'? and to whom?

There are a lot of collectors who would have to be reminded that 'Razorclaw' is one of those guys that form 'Predaking'.

Just as a comment, the Transformers Fandom has a very interesting concept that gets applied across the hobby: Egalitarianism (aka: social equity for those that need to look it up)

Why is, or why should it always be 'fair and square'? Where and to what extent does that principle extend? Why don't we all get nice cars, big houses, big salaries, fancy clothes, etc?

I'm not trying to be harsh here, but to those who want more 'fairness' in collecting, how do you apply that principal to the rest of your life?

Are you making significant donations to charity? Donating time to the less fortunate? Taking lower paying jobs in social service in order to make a difference?

If were talking about the 'irresponsible', I'd like to make sure we're framing the conversation in the right context.

[Diem]

Just as a comment, the Transformers Fandom has a very interesting concept that gets applied across the hobby: Egalitarianism (aka: social equity for those that need to look it up)

Why is, or why should it always be 'fair and square'? Where and to what extent does that principle extend? Why don't we all get nice cars, big houses, big salaries, fancy clothes, etc?

Hmmm. I understand Caelus' point though. If you're a collector living in Europe you envy the Americans. If you live in America, you envy the Americans with the time and money for Botcon. If you're one of the Botcon guys, you envy, what, the Japanese? I'm a great believer in being happy with what you can have rather than being upset with what you can't, but I can appreciate the frustration of those who want a particular figure only to see it yanked out of the $12 range and into the potential hundreds of dollars. We wouldn't be collectors if we didn't sometimes find the limited availability of figures frustrating.

[Counterpunch]

Just as a comment, the Transformers Fandom has a very interesting concept that gets applied across the hobby: Egalitarianism (aka: social equity for those that need to look it up)

Why is, or why should it always be 'fair and square'? Where and to what extent does that principle extend? Why don't we all get nice cars, big houses, big salaries, fancy clothes, etc?

Hmmm. I understand Caelus' point though. If you're a collector living in Europe you envy the Americans. If you live in America, you envy the Americans with the time and money for Botcon. If you're one of the Botcon guys, you envy, what, the Japanese? I'm a great believer in being happy with what you can have rather than being upset with what you can't, but I can appreciate the frustration of those who want a particular figure only to see it yanked out of the $12 range and into the potential hundreds of dollars. We wouldn't be collectors if we didn't sometimes find the limited availability of figures frustrating.

Agreed.

You and Caelus have made fairly measured responses to this, but never the less my point holds true for a certain vocal group of fans in the community.

What I am not sure of, is if those folks represent the majority or minority of fans/collectors.

[Delicon]

Just as a comment, the Transformers Fandom has a very interesting concept that gets applied across the hobby: Egalitarianism (aka: social equity for those that need to look it up)

Why is, or why should it always be 'fair and square'? Where and to what extent does that principle extend? Why don't we all get nice cars, big houses, big salaries, fancy clothes, etc?

Hmmm. I understand Caelus' point though. If you're a collector living in Europe you envy the Americans. If you live in America, you envy the Americans with the time and money for Botcon. If you're one of the Botcon guys, you envy, what, the Japanese? I'm a great believer in being happy with what you can have rather than being upset with what you can't, but I can appreciate the frustration of those who want a particular figure only to see it yanked out of the $12 range and into the potential hundreds of dollars. We wouldn't be collectors if we didn't sometimes find the limited availability of figures frustrating.

Haha, you make people who go to Botcon seem like retired multimillionaries who arrive at the comvention via private jets. I've been to 2 Botcons going on 3 but that doesn't mean I simply can buy up (or even would want to buy up) anything or everything I see. And honestly, if a collector here in the US, or anywhere in the world is able to obtain something I can't that certainly doesn't make me jealous.

[ThunderThruster]

God Damn it! Why couldnt Hasbro have done this with the Leo Breaker mold instead of that abismal Leo Prime!

[Delicon]

God Damn it! Why couldnt Hasbro have done this with the Leo Breaker mold instead of that abismal Leo Prime!

The concept for Leo Prime was fine, the colors just royally sucked.

[ThunderThruster]

God Damn it! Why couldnt Hasbro have done this with the Leo Breaker mold instead of that abismal Leo Prime!

The concept for Leo Prime was fine, the colors just royally sucked.

Thats what i meant!

[Diem]

You and Caelus have made fairly measured responses to this, but never the less my point holds true for a certain vocal group of fans in the community.

What I am not sure of, is if those folks represent the majority or minority of fans/collectors.

I dunno. This site is the only contact I have with other fans and collectors.

[Caelus]

Why is, or why should it always be 'fair and square'? Where and to what extent does that principle extend? Why don't we all get nice cars, big houses, big salaries, fancy clothes, etc?

Ferarri can't produce and market a car for the price of a Ford Focus.

Given the limited availability of surface area in the United States, builders can't sell houses for pennies on the dollar.

Likewise, given the finite availability of money, not everyone can have big salaries.

(No argument for "fancy" clothing, since it seems like the more expensive the clothing is the more it sucks in terms of warmth and durability. High quality outdoors clothing would be the exception, but I wouldn't call that "fancy".)

Hasbro, however, can sell characters like Thundercracker for $10-$13.

Unless the availability of blue paint has become an issue? I suppose that would explain Scourge too.

I don't see how anyone can shell out the sort of money necessary to get one of these figures and not feel like they're getting ripped off. It's a toy that has repeatedly retailed for $10, with a paint job that can't have cost any more to apply than any of the others'.

[Maybe the major car companies should learn from this - resolve their major financial woes by only offering their cheapest (lowest price-point) cars in the color blue as $80,000 limited editions.]

Think about it, since we've well established that the standard value for the mold is $10 ($13 if one accounts for the recent shift) the only added value that you're gaining with a figure like Classics Thundercracker lies in its exclusivity.

Which means either you're paying an extra $50-$70 for the name and the paint job, which should make you feel like you're being ripped off, or you're paying for the nice warm feeling of having something that other people don't get to have.

And if you're willing to pay that much (any at all) for the opportunity to get off on the knowledge that other people have been needlessly deprived of the item in question, then frankly I don't actually want to have anything to do with you. I'm sorry, but the honest truth is I find that sort of person to be... well I'm sure you can fill in the blanks. Not the sort of person I want to share space with, we'll put it that way.

But generally, I'm opposed to the idea of exclusive toys altogether. This sentiment isn't limited to characters I want. I only said that Shattered Glass & such were good candidates for such treatment b/c they wouldn't be sellable through primary distributors b/c of their unique nature, making very large scale production impractical. Of course, on the other hand, Hasbro sold Dragstrip & Overkill just fine online, available to everyone, at a modest markup (i.e. probably about enough to offset the limited production), so I don't really think that oddity/novelty-of-concept is even sufficient justification for a ridiculously high price tag. Heck, I was able to get the SDCC exclusive Nemesis Prime from Hasbro.com for only $5 over what he would have cost off the shelf at Wal-Mart. Why the difference between the SDCC exclusive and the Botcon exclusives?

[Counterpunch]

Why the difference between the SDCC exclusive and the Botcon exclusives?

I'm going to disregard everything you said there because your last statement reveals that you don't really have a grasp of the production costs, numbers, or what you get for your money at BotCon.

It's economy of scale. The cost difference between the 1,100-1,500 of any given figure made for BotCon is significant even for the lower production runs of 5,000 or so for SDCC.

A small production run of shelf stock toys is around 10,000. Usual runs are 3-5x that.


Now, all that aside. I am severely disappointed in your argument for bringing up Thundercracker. You seem to be well versed in Transformers and toys. I would have a hard time believing that in the past 2 years you have not at some point or another hear the explanations from both Hasbro and Fun Publications that Classics was OVER at the time Thundercracker was designed. There weren't supposed to be ANY Thundercracker toys made. Hasbro was wrong about Classics and its success. It happens. The facts are the facts though.

Now, ranting and rolling aside, let's run with Thundercracker. The 2007 BotCon set cost $275 for FIVE figures. 1 Voyager and 4 Deluxe figures...let's split that cost up evenly and we've got exclusives at $55 a piece.

Now, if you go to the convention, that $275 includes everything...BotCon, dealer room, panels, dinner, and toys. Not everyone can go to the show, so FP did something UNPRECEDENTED for BotCon, they allow for people to order non-attending sets.

Before FP, you had to be there and if you weren't you payed secondary market prices.

BotCon and exclusives are more available to average collectors than EVER before.

And if you're willing to pay that much (any at all) for the opportunity to get off on the knowledge that other people have been needlessly deprived of the item in question, then frankly I don't actually want to have anything to do with you. I'm sorry, but the honest truth is I find that sort of person to be... well I'm sure you can fill in the blanks. Not the sort of person I want to share space with, we'll put it that way.

Needlessly deprived?

What are we dealing with here? Are we not adults who understand the differences between needs and wants?

I'd rather play to win, have the things I want, and not have to make excuses for my situation. You can try to vilify me as I enjoy my exclusive toys and the means to gather them, but honestly, I wouldn't notice...

You see, people without the necessary means to get the toys have already contacted me and I'm helping them by getting the toys that they otherwise wouldn't be able to travel for.

I guess I'm a dick, but every year I've helped out people to make sure they can either go or have access to these toys at their Convention Retail prices.