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tfparodies wrote:"Winning?" For whom? Do you work for the film industry? Obviously I can argue how this certainly isn't "winning" in any respects to society as a whole. What should I care how much money Michael Bay earns in his job any more than anyone else? Why should that be winning to me? It's only winning to those who financially benefit or who are thoroughly entertained. Neither of which are me. So I take umbrage with calling it "winning".
tfparodies wrote:Heh. No? Any statistician can easily argue that one, as well as some gamblers too.Figures don't lie.
[/quote]tfparodies wrote:Not entirely true, as another fallacy that pervades is that somehow opinions can't be wrong.Whether the movies were good or bad is personal opinion and there is no right or wrong.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Shadowman wrote:Burn wrote:leakin' lubricant wrote:I think alot of the anti Bayformers people forget to realise that like it or not they have been a huge succsess and have returned Transformers back into the spotlight and generated a hell of a lot of revenue, whatever you think of the films as an artform the simple truth is without them we would not have seen the recent licenced Masterpiece figures, with that in mind what would you rather have, warm fuzzy memories from your childhood or those same warm fuzzy memories AND Maesterpiece Wheeljack, Sideswipe, Prowl and Bumblebee?
I'm not a "anti-Bayformer", I enjoyed the movies for what they were. BUT ... I see this "without them we wouldn't have had all the awesome stuff we've had like Classics, Generations, MP's etc in recent years" argument thrown around a lot and I just don't buy it.
Especially since Classics and MP, at least, came out before the movies.
Shadowman wrote:
Show me a gambler who thinks putting a billion dollars in the bank is "losing." Go on, I'll wait.
tfparodies wrote:And to play along with your little glitch of reasoning, how many stories have you heard where usually the boyfriend gets dragged to a crappy movie? Yes, sometimes people do get forced to watch this stuff.
Great. This has no bearing on what I said at all.
That's a fallacy that some people think is true, but it is blatantly not for a large percentage of the population. We are given the illusion of many choices. I haven't listened to the radio in years, and, yes, it's because of the same pop crap that gets re-fed to us over and over again.
It can't be, but opinions can be changed even though most times they probably aren't. Anyone willing to actually listen to reasoning should be open to having their minds changed.
"Winning?" For whom? Do you work for the film industry? Obviously I can argue how this certainly isn't "winning" in any respects to society as a whole. What should I care how much money Michael Bay earns in his job any more than anyone else? Why should that be winning to me? It's only winning to those who financially benefit or who are thoroughly entertained. Neither of which are me. So I take umbrage with calling it "winning".
I can certainly point out things that wrong with the movie. And when something is wrong, yes, it's the "be all/end all". If you want to ignore mistakes or flubs or flaws in logic or continuity errors and things like that, fine, but if they exist it's pretty much a clear-cut things.
Heh. No? Any statistician can easily argue that one, as well as some gamblers too.
Not entirely true, as another fallacy that pervades is that somehow opinions can't be wrong. Anyway, you can say you liked the movie, but in general know that it's not very good. Same with songs, TV, etc. Yes, I have some movies that I like that are considered bad, but I like them.
Shadowman wrote:ROTF and DOTM are in the top fifty highest-grossing movies of all time. That is objectively winning.
Still waiting? Good. Yet another statement that has absolutely no bearing to what is being discussed in the least.Show me a gambler who thinks putting a billion dollars in the bank is "losing." Go on, I'll wait.
If you say so. Of course, there is no quantitative analysis to show what "not very often" means though, so, again, I fail to see the point. Even so, it only takes one case to prove that fallacy.Sometimes they can be wrong. Not very often though.
No. It still doesn't. I know what I said, but his response doesn't address it at all with anything substantive.OptiMagnus wrote:Yes, it does.
Again, if you were part of the production team and gained from the success, good for you. I still fail to see how seeing huge corporations making even more money is "winning" for anyone but themselves. If you make the argument that movie sales and toy sales increased which helps the economy, okay, fine, at least an argument can be made. Of course, that's easily counterable.Winning for Hasbro, Paramount, everyone who worked on the movie, those who saw it and enjoyed it, and the film industry itself because of these movies generating such high and increasing interest among the masses. That's a lot of winning. I'm sorry the minority did not find it "winning," but you simply fail to understand that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Sorry...I couldn't resist.
I am not just talking about a flub or small continuity error. I am talking big leaps of logic in the writing and horrible exposition of characters and things like that. You know, the stuff they get away with over and over again because bline eyes are turned to it whereas if some newcomer brought such a horrid script into a studio they would be shown the door very quickly? Yeah, that kind of stuff.Even highly-regarded movies have flubs. Most people don't notice them, though, because they're too busy enjoying the movie.
I enjoy these leaps people keep making. Where did I say the movies didn't make a lot of money?So, you're saying the movies didn't make billions of dollars?
I think I addressed this before...If you say you like some movies that are generally considered bad, then you should have no problem with other people liking the Transformers movies.
See? This opinion is wrong. And it can easily be proved as such.Now, I think opinions can't be wrong unless we're talking about ethics
Laughable, eh? Say there is an action movie that you generally like, but there are such big gaps in logic that the filmmakers can barely be said to care. For example, how many times how we seen a movie where the hero gets shot multiple times, yet still somehow is able to fistfight his way to saving the world? There is a difference in suspending disbelief and treating the audience like moronic sheep because they know they can. This is what I am arguing about. And I don't know why some people here feel the need to fight against it when we know it's true.but to say "this movie/song/show is bad/good for a fact" is laughable.
Lets start simply. How about we set the bar low and say things should at least make sense? I have no problem accepting such a far-out premise of giant transforming alien robots on earth, so I think I can suspend disbelief just fine.Do you have specific criteria for "good" that would help me better understand your position?
tfparodies wrote:Still waiting? Good. Yet another statement that has absolutely no bearing to what is being discussed in the least.Shadowman wrote:Show me a gambler who thinks putting a billion dollars in the bank is "losing." Go on, I'll wait.
tfparodies wrote:I fail to see the point.
tfparodies wrote:Even so, it only takes one case to prove that fallacy.
tfparodies wrote:I still fail to see how seeing huge corporations making even more money is "winning" for anyone but themselves.
tfparodies wrote:For example, how many times how we seen a movie where the hero gets shot multiple times, yet still somehow is able to fistfight his way to saving the world?
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
KWFlange wrote:You know, the more I look at the post provided by the OP, the more I think the cashier was just getting the stare down by her supervisor. In most retail environments they are held accountable to a scorecard which measures how long they are with customers about 6 ways.
Or it is a fake story.
Likely just a piece of spin propaganda to "get those GEEEWUUUN people".
I can't imagine anyone going up to a person and being like "you don't like the right Transformers idiot!" when there is so much to talk about.
I am not a huge movie fan, but there is enough i like about them to have a conversation with another TF fan. And you could always use the conversation to suggest they watch G1 or Beast Wars, Or Animated etc.
Seems like BS to me. Kinda like the "Will Ferrel gets super buff all the time, click this link" crap you see on facebook.
Yep. Says quite a lot, eh?Shadowman wrote:You fail to see a lot of things, I've noticed.
Yet again, another missed point.Then do it already! Go on. I like the Michael Bay movies. Prove me wrong.
Thank you for solidifying my point.Who else would they be winning for? Who else would stand to gain from these, or any movie?
Yes, again, that's my point. There are those of us who are fine accepting that and those of us who expect better.Pretty frequently, actually. It's practically standard in action movies.
BeastProwl wrote:So people who swear hitler was a genius are entitled to that opinion because its not wrong, even though you've stated opinions can be wrong, just not ethical ones? It sounds to me like every opinion that isn't yours is wrong, because you can pussyfoot around the subject with that keyboard of yours.
That's fine. All that really would mean for me is that if we knew one another personally I would probably never want to see the movies you want to see. That's all.I like the TF films, shoot me multiple times, and ill get right back up and fight about it.
So you haven't followed at all thus far yet somehow think you know what I am going to say. Okay. :-\The movies were good, in my opinion. Prove that opinion wrong,
you cant, and you wont try. Because its not possible. You'll say its possible, but you wont prove it!
I never said your opinions were wrong. Nor did I "stroll up" to you and tell you as much. But that's okay, as I don't shy away from crassness if the situation calls for it and welcome open debate.Pardon if I come off a little crass, but when someone strolls up and says my point of view is wrong, I tend to express my opinions strongly, since it effects me
Yes, I took it as fake also. It's seems like one of those "meme"-type things that people fill in the blanks for whatever situation and spread around and people eat it up, which is mostly why I initially went against it as those things amount to nothing more than chain-letters.KWFlange wrote:You know, the more I look at the post provided by the OP, the more I think the cashier was just getting the stare down by her supervisor. In most retail environments they are held accountable to a scorecard which measures how long they are with customers about 6 ways.
Or it is a fake story.
Likely just a piece of spin propaganda to "get those GEEEWUUUN people".
tfparodies wrote:How much clearer can I be than say opinions CAN be wrong?
But okay, lets get even more basic. It is my opinion that the tooth fairy really exists. I guess since that doesn't bring up any ethical concerns (except for dentists, perhaps?) my opinion can't be wrong eh?
That's fine. All that really would mean for me is that if we knew one another personally I would probably never want to see the movies you want to see. That's all.I like the TF films, shoot me multiple times, and ill get right back up and fight about it.
tfparodies wrote:Yep. Says quite a lot, eh?Shadowman wrote:You fail to see a lot of things, I've noticed.
tfparodies wrote:Yet again, another missed point.Then do it already! Go on. I like the Michael Bay movies. Prove me wrong.
tfparodies wrote:Thank you for solidifying my point.Who else would they be winning for? Who else would stand to gain from these, or any movie?
tfparodies wrote:Yes, again, that's my point. There are those of us who are fine accepting that and those of us who expect better.Pretty frequently, actually. It's practically standard in action movies.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
This makes so little sense that I'm not sure where to start. Fine. Movies and music are the two biggest recreational things I can think of where people seem to have the most opinions or the most judgment. "I can't stand rom-coms!" "I wont watch a horror movie." Or, in my case, "the TF movies totally suck and I've seen fortune cookies with more plot."Burn wrote:Wow ... judging a person because they like one movie franchise. You're just a giant ray of sunshine aren't you?
And locking a message board topic where people are discussing something at a reasonable civilized level is a huge fault on message boards in general. I wouldn't ask for this to be locked nor would I hope anyone else would. It's not like there's a bevy of activity on this board.Shadowman wrote:Yes. For instance, it says you probably won't be spending much time on here when this thread gets locked.
Wait, so you missed the point twice now and asked me to do something I never said I would do in the first place, and somehow that's ME failing miserably? Well, given the lapse in logic from the start I guess I should't be surprised by this.What's really funny is that I knew ahead of time you weren't going to actually prove me wrong. You say it's a missed point, but I know you really just can't. Come on, you kept saying you could, I want to see you fail miserably at it!
Uh huh. This isn't like directions where 3 rights make a left. Missing the point twice or more doesn't set you on the right course.Um...wow, that was literally the opposite of your point.
I wasn't talking about character death, but yes, I do see the ironic nature of some of this. I said it before, since I can accept the premise of the alien robots existing in the first place you would think the writers of the Bay movies would really have to screw up for me to not like it. And that is exactly what they've done over and over.You're saying this on a Transformers forum. You know, that franchise where death is inconsequential?
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Wow. Really. I mean... really? You have the choice of editing that, you know. That's really what you're going to go with, eh?BeastProwl wrote:You did stroll up and state my opinions were wrong, the minute you posted in this thread and I read it. This is a fandom. You made your bed now sleep in it.
Since when? Since they are a major part of a movie you say you like and they are just as valid a topic of discussion as any other aspect, some would say perhaps the most valid.Since when are plot points a part of my stated opinion as a whole?
This coming from the person who just wrote the above, which epitomizes exactly what you just said here? Wow.Thats something you made up to make it look like your whole "I can prove your state of mind wrong" BS look like it had some weight.
I would be happy to if I can. If they aren't provable wrong than the best I can do is tell you why I think they are wrong. If that will suffice, than I don't mind the exercise.See heres my counterpoint. Prove my opinions are wrong. It really is that simple, right? You say so, so its gotta be true!
tfparodies wrote:What's truly funny about all this is that while some of you are arguing against my point that opinions can be wrong, you are inherently saying my opinion is wrong! Gotta love that.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
That's not what's been happening here. It's all there if you want to try to go back and understand it. No sense repeating over and over again.Shadowman wrote:I like that you keep saying I've missed the point, over and over, ad nauseum, when really you just can't defend yourself. If we do counter one of your points, you'll just say we're missing the point, or that it's not what's being discussed, or that it's a fallacy that you can disprove, but if we actually ask you to disprove it, we're just missing the point.
Just because someone likes the movies, doesn't mean their opinions are wrong. Just because you don't like the movies doesn't mean your opinions are right. Now grow up and deal with it.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Thank you for this! That opinion of yours is 100% wrong.Shadowman wrote:Basically, you can't tell the difference between "subjective" and "objective" and you think this somehow proves you right.
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