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Damolisher, what are you talking about? Did you even read my last post?

So, in the Universe line's continuity, Primus is the creator of all TFs across a multiverse full of different Cybertrons. Ok, fair enough. That has bugger all to do with the original cartoon, which is the primary source of Alpha Trion info, seeing as how he wasn't ever in the comics and he had no toy to give us techspech info.

Yeah, I did, and if you actually read mine, you'd understand what I'm talking about. You always seem to think you're right regardless of how many people you've got arguing against you. Because you obviously don't understand, here's how you can tell if you're wrong or not:

If you've got a majority of people in a topic telling you you are wrong, and that your guide is out of date, YOU ARE WRONG, AND YOUR GUIDE IS OUT OF DATE. Start accepting the fact that you don't knwo as much as you wish you did about Transformers. It's painfully clear to everyone else. Stop telling people they're wrong, and that your perception and interpretation of things is right. People are free to think what they want, until they start forcing their beliefs on people.

Damolisher, my last post said nothing about the Dreamwave comics nor the Ultimate Guide. It referred to Hasbro's retcon to the G1 cartoon established in season two of Beast Wars and further covered in the 3H Wreckers story line se in that same continuity.. Not once did I bring up Dreamwave.

Dreamwave did not establishe that retcon. The Ultimate Guide did not establishe that retcon. Hasbro did back in Season 2 of Beast Wars.

I've kinda lost track, which of the many retcons you firmly hold to are we talking about now and what has it got to do with Alpha Trion?

Tramp wrote:Damolisher, my last post said nothing about the Dreamwave comics nor the Ultimate Guide. It referred to Hasbro's retcon to the G1 cartoon established in season two of Beast Wars and further covered in the 3H Wreckers story line se in that same continuity.. Not once did I bring up Dreamwave.

Dreamwave did not establishe that retcon. The Ultimate Guide did not establishe that retcon. Hasbro did back in Season 2 of Beast Wars.

Are you some form of moron? I never said you did say anything about Beast Wars, I said, ok, now ACTUALLY READ THIS PART THIS TIME:

THE ULTIMATE GUIDE'S G1 RELATES TO THE DREAMWAVE CONTINUITY ONLY. I AM NOT SAYING YOU BROUGHT UP DREAMWAVE. I am referring to you using Dreamwave in OTHER ARGUMENTS. Seriously, why the hell is it that any time someone says something you have to explain it to you? See, this is why no-one believes your crap in the first place. You don't know how to interpret anything correctly, and that goes for comics. You get the meaning of everything I say twisted up and wrong.

You're wrong as usual about Maccadam, too (Wow, Tramp wrong, there's a surprise.) It says rumored, not that he actually IS. I'd vote no, because even though he's old, he shows no powers in either of his comic appearances. But then again, that's probably not talking about G1UK's Maccadam, it could be a new take, being the book is DREAMWAVE CONTINUTIY ORIENTED.

Damolisher wrote:

Tramp wrote:Damolisher, my last post said nothing about the Dreamwave comics nor the Ultimate Guide. It referred to Hasbro's retcon to the G1 cartoon established in season two of Beast Wars and further covered in the 3H Wreckers story line se in that same continuity.. Not once did I bring up Dreamwave.

Dreamwave did not establishe that retcon. The Ultimate Guide did not establishe that retcon. Hasbro did back in Season 2 of Beast Wars.

Are you some form of moron? I never said you did say anything about Beast Wars, I said, ok, now ACTUALLY READ THIS PART THIS TIME:

THE ULTIMATE GUIDE'S G1 RELATES TO THE DREAMWAVE CONTINUITY ONLY. I AM NOT SAYING YOU BROUGHT UP DREAMWAVE. I am referring to you using Dreamwave in OTHER ARGUMENTS. Seriously, why the hell is it that any time someone says something you have to explain it to you? See, this is why no-one believes your crap in the first place. You don't know how to interpret anything correctly, and that goes for comics. You get the meaning of everything I say twisted up and wrong.

You're wrong as usual about Maccadam, too (Wow, Tramp wrong, there's a surprise.) It says rumored, not that he actually IS. I'd vote no, because even though he's old, he shows no powers in either of his comic appearances. But then again, that's probably not talking about G1UK's Maccadam, it could be a new take, being the book is DREAMWAVE CONTINUTIY ORIENTED.

No, Damolisher, the Ultimate Guide covers all continuities. It discusses all continuities from the original G1 cartoon, marvel G12 comics, DW, IDW, Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Armada, Energon, etc. You, are the one who claims it only applies to DW continuity.

Uh, actually, I'm not, but then again, you seem to be unable to read anyone's pots completely. Look back a few pages, and you'll see you were told by a couple of other members. But then again, Tramp, I'd better not argue with you. You're always right. You know far more than anyone else on this site, don't you? Even if you have an admin correcting you, or another long time poster correcting you, because YOU say it's right, you say a certain thing is to be interpreted a certain way, or you say something has happened, you're correct no matter how many members tell you you're wrong, None of us know ANYTHING about Transformers. I mean, you know, this IS a Transformers site, but we're all ignorant and YOU are the only one here who's correct all the time.

Seriously, get real. You're not always right.

craggy wrote:So, in the Universe line's continuity, Primus is the creator of all TFs across a multiverse full of different Cybertrons. Ok, fair enough. That has bugger all to do with the original cartoon, which is the primary source of Alpha Trion info, seeing as how he wasn't ever in the comics and he had no toy to give us techspech info.

Actually, Alpha Trion does appear in comics. He appears in both the BotCon comics as far back as the Wreckers story line, and he appears in the Dreamwave comics. He even has a bio in MtMtE #1. The 3H Wreckers story arc, which was part of the early Universe story line, was set in the same continuity as the original G1 cartoon and Beast Wars/Beast Machines cartoons. The Universe story line as established by Hasbro, also covered every continuity, including G1 cartoon continuity. It merged them all into a single multiverse under Primus. It was Beast Wars, that established that in cartoon continuity, Primus, not the Quintessans, was the true creator of the Transformers. Wreckers further clarified that in its third issue. It goes into detail their origins.

^Alright, NOW you've got some coherence to your argument. THANK YOU.

I have had coherance right from the beginning.

Do I have to pull the Doctor Cox singing the "Wrong" song video out again?

Damolisher wrote:Do I have to pull the Doctor Cox singing the "Wrong" song video out again?

Believe what you will Damolisher. Believe what you will.

Oh, I will. And apparently, everyone ELSE not named Tramp in this topic believes what I will too! *Thumbs up*

Keep believing that if it keeps you warm at night.

Yeah, well it keeps me warm at night more than a seedy fetish for a robot bird...

Damolisher wrote:Do I have to pull the Doctor Cox singing the "Wrong" song video out again?

i like scrubs

but for Alphatrion to have no mystical powers in any of his retcons, to my knowledge, what makes him one of the originals? I think he was stated as among the first sparks released via vectorsigma in G1 toon verse continuity. if you are linking G2 then this would explain why none remember the other means of TF production as he'ld be the oldest TF on Cybertron and wasn't created using the other method.

I'ld be happy to consider the liege among the original provided G2 is considered canon in at least one of the multi-verses, as all multi-verse original 13 should be the same. But the macaddams being one because he runs a bar in a prime location, gaining clients from each verse in the multi-verse, seems quite a stretch. At best he could be a fabled direct descendant like G2 Megs is reported, and nearly as old as Alphatrion. The consciousness of Monstructor has a better chance of being one of the original 13. Really...

If Alphatrion was among the original 13 it would raise even more questions and deface his canon level of importance. leige Maximo was far beyond G2 megs, even beyond the destructive might of Galvatron. Kup could kick Alphatrion's axel in ever continuity I've seen them both in.


Leige Maximo (the yin to the prime lines yang)
Prima (renowned bearer of the matrix)
Primon (killed by Liege and forgotten by matrix)
the Fallen (betrayer of Primus)
the last Autobot/Vector Prime (time guardian)

I am also with the understanding that botcon comics aren't exactly canon... much like the beast combiner form of the Dinobots...

But i could be wrong...

AxiomScion wrote:Leige Maximo (the yin to the prime lines yang)
Prima (renowned bearer of the matrix)
Primon (killed by Liege and forgotten by matrix)
the Fallen (betrayer of Primus)
the last Autobot/Vector Prime (time guardian)

This is the 2nd time I see some one state a connection between the last Autobot and Vector Prime suggesting that they might be one and the same.........has this been said somewhere officaly or is it a fan theroy?

Alpha Trion does have certain abilities beyond that of other transformers. He is the only one who has the bond necessary to gain full access to Vector Sigma. He is also the only one who full understands the ever-changing maze-like tunnels which lead to Vector Sigma. His vast wisdom and knowledge of ancient Cybertronian history, mythology, and science from untold eons is his power, not something physical. He was Guardian of the Well of All Sparks. He is Guardian of Vector Sigma. That alone makes him extremely important.

vector prime and the last Autobot have many things in common, virtually mirroring each other, but have never been mentioned in the same continuity.

If i look long enough i'm sure i can find someplace to state Vector was based strongly on the last Autobot, but even i would be hard pressed to find a statement that they are in fact one in the same.

The thirteen would need to be specifically built by Primus. A-3 seems the first built buy vectorsigma, and thus his wealth of knowlegde and role as it's guardian.

kinda eliminates him from the originals list to me. especially if some powerful original 13member was destroyed in the fight against unicron but... Alpha Trion survived...

IF you have seen the original design sketches for Vector Prime. His face was originally going to resemble the Autobot Symbol almost exactly, just like The Last Autobot. The only thing that might discount them being the same person is that the Last Autobot served as an avatar of Primus, and contained some of his essence. However, it is possible, that any of the Original 13 could serve as avatars and contain some of Primus'essense as well. So that isn't necessarily a disqualifying factor. It is clear that the Last Autobot is one of the Original 13. However, the question remains is he a separate being from Vector Prime, or are they one and the same. There is some suggestion that the design of Vector Prime was based upon the Last Autobot. As fro Alpha Trion, The passage on the Well of All Sparks suggests that he very well may have been created by Primus. Before the coming of the Quintessans, the passage says,

Through its guardian, Alpha Trion, Primus maintained a vigil over his "children", but his link was severed when Cybertron was invaded by armies of a amrauding alien race.

Alpha Trion was Primus' chosen guardian over the Well of All Sparks since very early on. This is a position only one of the Original 13 would have.

As i said before A3 seems to have been the first built by vectorsigma making him the oldest of the those who were.

Again if Comic G2 is taken into acount, it would explain the presence of Cybertronians within the Matrix of Leadership older than Alpha Trion being created through "other" means.

As for the first question that started this thread, maybe we should just list what each continuity specifically said about old A3... cause G1 toon said VectorSigma did it.

I think if logic is applied you can fit it together to some degree.

FACT: Primus is the creator of the TF race across many if not all continuities, at least all the ones being debated here, he wasn't mentioned in the cartoon but has been retconned somewhat by the 3H Wrecker comics saying:

Vector Sigma, the supercomputer which exists as the ultimate physical embodiment of your fabled Primus. It was then that we were finally granted success.

We established a shell program capable of shrouding the power and guidance of vector sigma from its creations - if not blocking its will entirely


In the episode The Key to Vector Sigma Alpha Trion claims to be a first Gen product of Vector Sigma, (now bear in mind we're trying to retcon all of this so it was never meant to fit in together) it is safe to assume that he was one of the first creations directly made by Primus, given his role as guardian its a safe bet he was most likely the VERY first, but this is again conjecture and has never been confirmed.


Fast forward to Generation 2 and we see that for a long time the transformers used this cell division process to reproduce and they mention the G2 Cybertronians RE-discovered this, my theory would be the long period of enslavement by the quintessons where they are creating new machines is the period in reference where they stopped this process.

The evidence for my theory is that the Quints never made any reference to simply splitting there creations in two, and i strongly believe they would as its pure profit with no raw materials, and the G2 comics indicate the TFs reproduced like this, stopped and then rediscovered this ability.


The confirmed members of the 13 are really only the Fallen and Vector Prime, Alpha Trion i think is one but there has never been a definate yes, for the sake of my post i'll go with he is.

If we are to use that logic, it would follow that only the originals would have any idea about the cell division means of reproducing as they would have had to create subsequent offspring in this manner to populate the planet before the memory wipe of their creations. Liege Maximo seems to know how to turn this ability back on so I'd guess he was one of the 13 who spawned megatron directly knowing what this would spiral onto, who informed the G2 cybertronians how to do this during the Ark being dormant on earth...no mention and no real clue other than speculation that Liege Maximo somehow influenced them...

Macaddam is rumoured and nothing more, as with Alpha Trion, its up to the fanbase to deem in their own heads if he is or he isnt as Hasbro and Simon Furman have not said yay or nay conclusively..YET!

Last Autobot is the last transformer created by Primus making him number 13 and seems to have been slumbering not doing a hell of a lot as opposed to Vector Prime who has been galaxy and time hopping for a while. Yes one could be based on the other but if we are going for a total retcon and merging, they've lead different lives so i'd go with them being seperate just with similar designs....who knows maybe Primus didnt give a **** by the time he got around to creating number 13 and pulled a hasbro and just pulled out an old mold and retooled it a bit ala G1 Predacons Rampage and Razorclaw and thought:

"Heh heh, no one will ever be able to tell its the same TF just with a slightly different paint job and a bit of a different alt mode"

Just my take on how it CAN all fit together, theres no way in hell you'll ever get it much more cohesive as it was never written with any other stories in mind...

Feel free to criticise and correct me where wrong folks.

skyshadowprimus wrote:Feel free to criticise and correct me where wrong folks.

Personally I have no fault with anything you have written, a theory/opinion is just that. There's some quite well thought out stuff in there concerning the Liege and all.

But you have contradicted the Ultimate guide, so expect some over-reacting criticism from certain people.

The trouble with retconning is:

What's to stop Hasbro from retconning Primus out of existance and saying Leige Maximo actually produced an offspring that was hidiously injured and attatched it's brain to a computer on an artificial world called Cybertron, becoming Vector Sigma, simply to spite his father and produce the tf race knowing they will stop the Leige from rising to God-hood, all to prove that because he was weak, he should not have been cast aside by his father. Unicron and Primus are simply his first attempt at tf's, making giant robots to fight his giant dad, but found them hard to conrtol so banished Unicron to the depths of space and locked Primus up in the centre of the planet.

Unicron returned, intent of avenging his banishment (like father like son) and Primus tried to save his dad.

The whole backstory of Primus and Unicron was just told to the tf's so they wouldn't try to stop Vector Sigma and his plans would be fullfiled.


Hey, if Hasbro retconned it in some

'Super Duper Ultimate Super Deluxe Guide To Every Single TF Verse Ever, Even Those That Haven't Been Created Yet'

(they may have to work on the name) then we all must accept it.

Can we please stop all of this retconning everything into one series with one origin please? This is not directed at you specifically Tramp so please don't take offence, I am just sick of the way people are trying to fudge everything into one origin when it clearly belongs in seperate continuities with seperate origins. And anything that doesn't mesh well conveniently gets retconned out of existance. I don't care who made the retcon, lets just leave each continuity in each continuity.