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At least change the face.

It's not Starscream though. If it is real, and I'm inclined to think it is, it really is a "heroic" Jetfire.

Why? Because SOMEONE had to break the mold of "good is evil and evil is good simplicity."

Why else? Because the box set comes with a mini-con called Razorclaw. And the general consensus is that it means we're getting a repainted ARMADA Starscream with a repainted Swindle.

It's Jetfire and it's an add-on. Let the hue and cry begin.

When will you guys learn,this is the Heroic starscream botcon will get,the same leak-out happened with alpha trion,the minicon is gonna be a redeco of classics Razorclaw,not swindle.
The minicon will suck,but this screamer looks nice,could use some more paint apps though.

Not bad. Still will pass on the set.

rhinox555 wrote:the minicon is gonna be a redeco of classics Razorclaw,not swindle.
The minicon will suck,but this screamer looks nice,could use some more paint apps though.

I don't think there is a Razorclaw in Classics. Do you mean Cybertron Razorclaw the repaint of Thunderwing from Armada?

That might actually be cool. I hate minicons, but I love the Targetmaster minicons. Maybe they'll repaint him to look like Lazerbeak or Buzzsaw.

Quoting Rhinox555: "When will you guys learn,this is the Heroic starscream botcon will get,the same leak-out happened with alpha trion,the minicon is gonna be a redeco of classics Razorclaw,not swindle.
The minicon will suck,but this screamer looks nice,could use some more paint apps though."

Let's look at the facts.

* There is a mini-con, named Razorclaw, that comes with the Convention set.
* The only botcon figure not yet seen is Starscream.
* None of the other four characters come with a mini-con.
* The likelihood that a single mini-con bonus will be produced for the Botcon set is infinitesimal.

Ergo, logic dictates that the only way a mini-con will end up in the box is to accompany the only figure that has not yet been previewed - Starscream.

The only Starscream mold that comes with a mini-con is Armada Starscream, who comes with Swindle. Not Cybertron Starscream, that does not have a mini-con.

And since the paint applications of Goldbug and Jazz have been so faithful thus far, ergo, it is logical to assume that this is in fact heroic Jetfire, and not a pale version of Starscream that "could use some more paint app" to quote Rhinox555.

Furthermore, it is logical that Swindle will be repainted into Razorclaw. Not logical from a fandom, wankfest perspective, but logical from a cost-benefit analysis perspective. The Swindle mold is part of the Armada Starscream mold. If it doesn't get used, it gets thrown away.

And the likelihood that the Club or Hasbro will take that action, in order to substitute Classics Overbite or Classics Snarl as the mini-con in the set (the only two possible contenders that would bear any resemblance to the G1 Razorclaw we know and love) is again infinitesimal.

Sorry Rhinox555. You're wrong on this one.

I can't believe you guys are debating this. Obviously that leaked jetfire/starscream is from the botcon set! The seller knows his ****!

Well, we have some confirmation that it is indeed Starscream:

Superfirerollbar wrote:Now in Starscream's case - why does he look like Jetfire? Because in many ways, Jetfire was one of his arch enemies. There are few enemies 'worse' than one that was once your friend. Plus, we liked the idea of switching SS from being this power hungry 'con lieutenant to a loyal, scientifically minded lieutenant. The comments that Starscream looks 'too much like Jetfire' mystify me since...well...that's the *point*."

Edited from his original post.

mr.terrific wrote:Quoting Rhinox555: "When will you guys learn,this is the Heroic starscream botcon will get,the same leak-out happened with alpha trion,the minicon is gonna be a redeco of classics Razorclaw,not swindle.
The minicon will suck,but this screamer looks nice,could use some more paint apps though."

Let's look at the facts.

* There is a mini-con, named Razorclaw, that comes with the Convention set.
* The only botcon figure not yet seen is Starscream.
* None of the other four characters come with a mini-con.
* The likelihood that a single mini-con bonus will be produced for the Botcon set is infinitesimal.

Ergo, logic dictates that the only way a mini-con will end up in the box is to accompany the only figure that has not yet been previewed - Starscream.

The only Starscream mold that comes with a mini-con is Armada Starscream, who comes with Swindle. Not Cybertron Starscream, that does not have a mini-con.

And since the paint applications of Goldbug and Jazz have been so faithful thus far, ergo, it is logical to assume that this is in fact heroic Jetfire, and not a pale version of Starscream that "could use some more paint app" to quote Rhinox555.

Furthermore, it is logical that Swindle will be repainted into Razorclaw. Not logical from a fandom, wankfest perspective, but logical from a cost-benefit analysis perspective. The Swindle mold is part of the Armada Starscream mold. If it doesn't get used, it gets thrown away.

And the likelihood that the Club or Hasbro will take that action, in order to substitute Classics Overbite or Classics Snarl as the mini-con in the set (the only two possible contenders that would bear any resemblance to the G1 Razorclaw we know and love) is again infinitesimal.

Sorry Rhinox555. You're wrong on this one.

Okay,so you say the colors have been g1 faithful so far? prime is not supposed to be purple,grimlock can be considered g2-ish,and goldbug was all gold,he is black now with some gold apps. so that point you mention does not make sense,second:Jetfire isn't a decepticon,third,razorclaw is definately gonna be an animal minicon,a Formula-1 racecar is never gonna be called razorclaw,fourth,the jetfire-ish color is an HOMAGE to his old friend,if you think hasbro would never-ever-ever homage something then...well...wow dude.
And finally:You think botcon would never use a minicon that didn't belong to the toy it attaches to? they did the same thing with the beast wars timelines set,

I respect your opinion though,but if i turn out to be right,i'm gonna send you some "told you so" messages.

as you should!

rhinox555 wrote:Okay,so you say the colors have been g1 faithful so far? prime is not supposed to be purple,grimlock can be considered g2-ish,and goldbug was all gold,he is black now with some gold apps. so that point you mention does not make sense,second:Jetfire isn't a decepticon,third,razorclaw is definately gonna be an animal minicon,a Formula-1 racecar is never gonna be called razorclaw,fourth,the jetfire-ish color is an HOMAGE to his old friend,if you think hasbro would never-ever-ever homage something then...well...wow dude.
And finally:You think botcon would never use a minicon that didn't belong to the toy it attaches to? they did the same thing with the beast wars timelines set,

I respect your opinion though,but if i turn out to be right,i'm gonna send you some "told you so" messages.

Let me go through your comments:

First, what I said was the "paint applications of Goldbug and Jazz have been so faithful thus far". Point taken on the black stipes on Goldbug, but the head and colouring otherwise is faithful, and there is no arguing about Jazz. I actually didn't make the comment about Grimlock or Prime (mainly because to have accurate G1 paints would make them identical to what is currently available).

Second, Jetfire was a Decepticon, if however briefly, in both cartoon, Marvel and Dreamwave and IDW lore. To different degrees, time periods, and always somewhat uncomfortable, Jetfire nonetheless wore the badge of the Decepticons nonetheless. Not only that but his remaining a heroic Decepticon actually adds some real colour to an otherwise simplistic "good = bad and bad = good" plotline. Because a mirror-verse is not always about absolutes but sometimes about shades. But I digress.

Third, there is no guarantee that Razorclaw will be an animal. He wasn't always an animal and his transformation is not in stone. If Optimus and Megatron can be G2 gobots at one point in their history, and Soundwave and Blaster can become futuristic jets for Cybertron and Universe respectively (to say nothing of Soundwave's BW mutant form) then anything is possible. Even the club made Riccochet (previously a car) into a Cyberjet, and gave Laserbeak and Buzzsaw robotic forms. Would it make sense for him to be one of the animal minicons? Yes. Is it guaranteed? Nope!

Fourth, while it is possible it could be a recolour in honour of a fallen comrade, it is unlikely. And given the colours of Jazz and Bumblebee as examples, why would the club risk the confusion when it wouldn't be difficult to add the blue?

And finally, you mention this mini-con that Botcon used for the Beast Wars Timeline series. Which mini-con do you mean? Do you mean the one that doesn't exist? Because there was not a mini-con with Primal, Rhinox, Rattrap, Cheetor, Rhinox, Unit 2/Tigatron, Megatron, Waspinator, Laserbeak or Buzzsaw (or Airrazor either). And since it doesn't exist, your point is moot. But please correct me on the Beast Wars timeline mini-con if I'm overlooking it...

I'll take the ribbing if I'm wrong and drink the admiration of the community when I'm right.

mr.terrific wrote:
I'll take the ribbing if I'm wrong and drink the admiration of the community when I'm right.

Look MT, I like how you are thinking this through, but you are using too much SHOCKWAVE logic here...straight line, expected to happen because of logic, thinking.

#1) This is the club. They don't need to be logical in their thinking. Just because there is a minicon included in the box set, does not mean it needs to be an original partner to any of the figures. Minicons are made with a universal port that can allow them to be used with any figures with a minicon attachment. By your logic it could also be Cybertron Vector Prime, or a host of other molds to be Starscream--it would not even need to be a Starscream mold at all, just a mold that comes with a minicon partner. However, the 'rumors' have stated that there will be other Predacons made and included with the add-on sets. Thus it is not just a 1 minicon set, but indeed would be the CLASSICS minicon Preds repainted in G1 Pred colors--the illogical expectation.

#2) Did you read Counterpunch's last statement at all?

Counterpunch wrote:Well, we have some confirmation that it is indeed Starscream:

Superfirerollbar wrote:Now in Starscream's case - why does he look like Jetfire? Because in many ways, Jetfire was one of his arch enemies. There are few enemies 'worse' than one that was once your friend. Plus, we liked the idea of switching SS from being this power hungry 'con lieutenant to a loyal, scientifically minded lieutenant. The comments that Starscream looks 'too much like Jetfire' mystify me since...well...that's the *point*."

#3) It has RED DECEPTICON logos on the wings. All of the Autobots have had PURPLE bot symbols. This is Starscream because the source for the set when the rumors came out has been right about every single one he has said, including paint schemes. This was on his list.

#4) Add On sets are rumored to be Evil Goatee Rodimus set, and then an Energon Megatron repaint as the second. No Jetfire.



Truthfully none of us will know for sure what this is until Botcon tells us.

I love this mold, even though it could use a few more points or articulation. In this particular case, I am hoping that more paint apps are added to it. There is an awful lot of white here...but I like the idea of taking Jetfire's colors as a tribute to his friend gone bad that he may have had to destroy.

This is interesting, and worth the purchase no matter who the character ends up being.

mr.terrific wrote:

rhinox555 wrote:Okay,so you say the colors have been g1 faithful so far? prime is not supposed to be purple,grimlock can be considered g2-ish,and goldbug was all gold,he is black now with some gold apps. so that point you mention does not make sense,second:Jetfire isn't a decepticon,third,razorclaw is definately gonna be an animal minicon,a Formula-1 racecar is never gonna be called razorclaw,fourth,the jetfire-ish color is an HOMAGE to his old friend,if you think hasbro would never-ever-ever homage something then...well...wow dude.
And finally:You think botcon would never use a minicon that didn't belong to the toy it attaches to? they did the same thing with the beast wars timelines set,

I respect your opinion though,but if i turn out to be right,i'm gonna send you some "told you so" messages.

Let me go through your comments:

First, what I said was the "paint applications of Goldbug and Jazz have been so faithful thus far". Point taken on the black stipes on Goldbug, but the head and colouring otherwise is faithful, and there is no arguing about Jazz. I actually didn't make the comment about Grimlock or Prime (mainly because to have accurate G1 paints would make them identical to what is currently available).

Second, Jetfire was a Decepticon, if however briefly, in both cartoon, Marvel and Dreamwave and IDW lore. To different degrees, time periods, and always somewhat uncomfortable, Jetfire nonetheless wore the badge of the Decepticons nonetheless. Not only that but his remaining a heroic Decepticon actually adds some real colour to an otherwise simplistic "good = bad and bad = good" plotline. Because a mirror-verse is not always about absolutes but sometimes about shades. But I digress.

Third, there is no guarantee that Razorclaw will be an animal. He wasn't always an animal and his transformation is not in stone. If Optimus and Megatron can be G2 gobots at one point in their history, and Soundwave and Blaster can become futuristic jets for Cybertron and Universe respectively (to say nothing of Soundwave's BW mutant form) then anything is possible. Even the club made Riccochet (previously a car) into a Cyberjet, and gave Laserbeak and Buzzsaw robotic forms. Would it make sense for him to be one of the animal minicons? Yes. Is it guaranteed? Nope!

Fourth, while it is possible it could be a recolour in honour of a fallen comrade, it is unlikely. And given the colours of Jazz and Bumblebee as examples, why would the club risk the confusion when it wouldn't be difficult to add the blue?

And finally, you mention this mini-con that Botcon used for the Beast Wars Timeline series. Which mini-con do you mean? Do you mean the one that doesn't exist? Because there was not a mini-con with Primal, Rhinox, Rattrap, Cheetor, Rhinox, Unit 2/Tigatron, Megatron, Waspinator, Laserbeak or Buzzsaw (or Airrazor either). And since it doesn't exist, your point is moot. But please correct me on the Beast Wars timeline mini-con if I'm overlooking it...

I'll take the ribbing if I'm wrong and drink the admiration of the community when I'm right.

That means only half of the figures so far have been g1-ish.
And who better to homage when in need of autobot colors,than jetfire? the autobot former friend of starscream?
And for timelines,they used a cyber planet key that didn't come with any of the included molds.
And the club laserbeak/buzzsaw's were inspired by Agent Ravage,rebuilt as predacons with botmodes. they still had a bird mode though.

tigertracks 24 wrote:#1) This is the club...
#2) Did you read Counterpunch's last statement at all?

Counterpunch wrote:Well, we have some confirmation that it is indeed Starscream:
Superfirerollbar wrote:Now in Starscream's case - why does he look like Jetfire? Because in many ways, Jetfire was one of his arch enemies. There are few enemies 'worse' than one that was once your friend. Plus, we liked the idea of switching SS from being this power hungry 'con lieutenant to a loyal, scientifically minded lieutenant. The comments that Starscream looks 'too much like Jetfire' mystify me since...well...that's the *point*."

#3) It has RED DECEPTICON logos on the wings. All of the Autobots have had PURPLE bot symbols. This is Starscream because the source for the set when the rumors came out has been right about every single one he has said, including paint schemes. This was on his list.
#4) Add On sets are rumored to be Evil Goatee Rodimus set, and then an Energon Megatron repaint as the second. No Jetfire.

Truthfully none of us will know for sure what this is until Botcon tells us.

This is interesting, and worth the purchase no matter who the character ends up being.

1. You are right. It is the Club. Frankly, I'm half expecting Cybertron Skywarp as the mold.
2. I did read it. And since I had no idea he was running for Jesus, I didn't (and don't) put a lot of stock in them. Time will tell if that is the correct position.
3. OMG! Red Decepticon logos! And the guy running for Jesus said so! Then it must be true!
4. The Club has consistently provided five extra add-on figures, one for showing up and two sets of two additional figures. There is strong evidence that a Megatron is coming because it was in the Club's 4-page advertisement. But even with an evil Rodimus, that leave three more slots that are open.

You're right though. We won't know until we know. But frankly, I disagree on your last point. If it ends up being Jetfire, it me, the Club has demonstrated that it has a richer and more developed conceptualization of a mirror-verse. And just as important, it adds an important character and a cool repaint to the line.

If this is some Starscream-as-tribute-to-Jetfire, it is in my view, incredibly lame and actually undermines the entire set. And not worth the purchase.

rhinox555 wrote:That means only half of the figures so far have been g1-ish.

It does in fact mean that half the figures so far are G1 renderings. I never said otherwise. The two that are have never been sold as their G1 counterparts before. The two that are not G1-esque have been sold as their G1 counterparts. Which makes perfect sense - why do a repaint that is almost exactly the same as what is at retail at half the price?

If I'm right and Starscream is a repaint of his Aramda bad self, there is still a lot of room to make him G1-esque. If you are right and this is some incredibly lame Jetfire-tribute by Starscream, I have to question why they didn't go all the way and make him G1-esque since his Cybertronian version does allow for such a homage.

rhinox555 wrote:And who better to homage when in need of autobot colors,than jetfire? the autobot former friend of starscream?

Just because it could be doesn't make it right.

rhinox555 wrote:

rhinox555 wrote:And finally:You think botcon would never use a minicon that didn't belong to the toy it attaches to? they did the same thing with the beast wars timelines set,

And for timelines,they used a cyber planet key that didn't come with any of the included molds.

A cyber key is not a mini-con. Don't start changing your tune on me now.

rhinox555 wrote:And the club laserbeak/buzzsaw's were inspired by Agent Ravage,rebuilt as predacons with botmodes. they still had a bird mode though.

Yes, they were inspired by BW Ravage, a toy I might point that did not transform into a cassette like his G1 self and thereby demonstrating Hasbro's willingness to use reuse a name without insisting upon it maintaining the same alt mode with which it was first associated. So you've proved my point. Thank you.

Do I think it will be lame if Razorclaw ends up being a Swindle-repaint? Yes. But I think a Razorclaw mini-con is a pretty lame toy to begin with, and I'm not spending $289 on a mini-con.

There is a certain attractiveness to my well-argued theory. But at the end of the day, no matter the logic, it is a theory. I accept that I could be wrong. But I do maintain that if I am wrong, if this beautifully-logical argument I have put forward turns out to be simply a logical being arguing against the chaos of the irrational, the concept of a Starscream figure wearing Jetfire colours will truly be a disappointment. And really quite lame.

mr.terrific wrote:3. OMG! Red Decepticon logos! And the guy running for Jesus said so! Then it must be true!

You have a problem with me?

So who feels like a putz now? Or will there be no more responses in this thread?

That's what I thought

Nice.. it just looks fantastic.

I was thinking of saying something to a certain poster, but I thought better of it.

I still like how it looks.

Did I win 'Jesus' yet?

Well, I believe it now. That is the Shattered Glass Starscream. But I'm still not paying THAT much for him. I'd get the entire set for that much money including the shipping costs.

Blackstreak wrote:Well, I believe it now. That is the Shattered Glass Starscream. But I'm still not paying THAT much for him. I'd get the entire set for that much money including the shipping costs.

Except that apparently, all the Box Sets (all of them) are sold out now.

(at least that is what several twf members were reporting yesterday...)

Auto Bot wrote:At least change the face.

Why? That's the face of the Galaxy Force Starscream, and since this figure is Starscream, why change the face? That made no sense.

mr.terrific wrote:There is a certain attractiveness to my well-argued theory. But at the end of the day, no matter the logic, it is a theory. I accept that I could be wrong. But I do maintain that if I am wrong, if this beautifully-logical argument I have put forward turns out to be simply a logical being arguing against the chaos of the irrational, the concept of a Starscream figure wearing Jetfire colours will truly be a disappointment. And really quite lame.

mr.terrific wrote:I'll take the ribbing if I'm wrong and drink the admiration of the community when I'm right.

At 11:23 p.m. Monday Evening, Starscream-now-wearing-Jetfire's-colours said:

Starscream wrote:


So who feels like a putz now? Or will there be no more responses in this thread?

At 2:17 a.m., Tuesday Morning, a clearly sleep-deprived, identity-confused seeker said:

Starscream wrote:That's what I thought

Throughout the maelstrom that was the "Botcon exclusive JetFire auction", I slept in anticipation of a long workday ahead. You will forgive me then if I didn't immediately reply.

While I stand by my views on the set as a result of the official confirmation of this decision, let it not be said I can't take a hit. As I made clear throughout my posts on the subject, I am not above admitting when I am wrong. So to my detractors, without any feeling of putz-ness in my being, I simply say "mea culpa."

Now to correct a few other oversights...

Counterpunch wrote:

mr.terrific wrote:3. OMG! Red Decepticon logos! And the guy running for Jesus said so! Then it must be true!

You have a problem with me?

Counterpunch wrote:Did I win 'Jesus' yet?

Counterpunch, I have no problem with you because you were not actually in the running.

My comments were not intended to be directed at you, but the source you were quoting, Superfirerollbar, whose expertise in these matters was neither apparent or explained. In the frustration of having sound, logical arguments shouted down by an undefined "expert", I channelled Dick Cheney and buckshoot the person in question. The trouble with buckshoot is, as Mr. Cheney learned, is that it scatters when shot and leaves a lot of collateral damage.

Having subsequently learned the identity of the individual in question (and quite independently from this post, I might add), someone who has a bit of knowledge in these matters, I've since contacted him privately to apologize for any distress.

So to clarify, Counterpunch, at best you were running for one of the 12 seats around the table. (John, perhaps?) Not sure if that makes you feel better (although he was a pretty good apostle.)

rhinox555 wrote:When will you guys learn

While I will be forever surprised by the thinking of the Club in these matters --- for instance, why go through the trouble of repainting a mini-con as Razorclaw in the first place, even if the choice of mini-con in question is singularly adept for the function, when a quick survey of posts seems to indicate little practical interest? --- I accept there are things I cannot know. I can only articulate rationale arguments to support what are my beliefs and opinions. To quote the great Irish poet, W.B. Yeates:

I made my song a coat
Covered with embroideries
Out of old mythologies
From heel to throat;
But the fools caught it,
Wore it in the world's eyes
As though they'd wrought it.
Song, let them take it,
For there's more enterprise
In walking naked.

Dear mr.terrific,

You are in fact terrific. Never have I seen someone quote Yeates on a Transformers board. Terrific indeed.

Sincerely,
Dagon