Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

njb902 wrote:

Omega-1 wrote:

njb902 wrote:

Omega-1 wrote:I understand that there are people that only want originals or that there are people that might be confused about whether something is an unofficial replica or authentic Transformer, but there are also a lot of people that want these unofficial replica Transformers that may never be reproduced by Hasbro or Takara Tomy.

I don't have any official numbers but I'm certain that people who are buying the KOs and knowing that they are KOs outnumber (probably by a lot) the people who are accidently buying KOs thinking they are authentic Transformers. If this is the case, you are trying to protect a small number of people to screw over a larger number of people. I'm not saying that it's right to swindle those small number of people but people who don't want KOs on the market need to see the impact of the other side as well.

Well that pretty well sums up how majorities treat minorities.

You are missing the entire point. The people who collect KOs acknowledge that swindling people is wrong and want to help educate people from being swindled. The side that wants KOs off the market refuse to acknowledge there are lot of people out there that want KOs and that taking them off the market would screw these people over. Either that or they don't care that these people get screwed over.

You can talk all you want about "understanding" that it sucks for people to get screwed over, but in the end as long as you get yours it's okay.

Excuse me, but I find that offensive. You stated that like it is a fact like you know what I'm thinking. And I can say that at least showing sympathy for the other side is something, where you seem to show none.

Seibertron wrote:An inability to buy counterfeit products is not "getting screwed over" as you put it. You can buy the originals like those of us who worked very hard to obtain them. Getting screwed over when it comes to collectibles is flat out being denied the opportunity to ever buy them. Lack of willingness to pay for the prices that original/official figures go for does not equal getting screwed over if counterfeit products didn't or ceased to exist.

And this brings me back to my point about being elitist. You are telling people that if they can't afford the outrageous prices of originals then it's too bad for you.

Optimus21577 wrote: Sad to say there are going to be people that get scammed, it doesn't matter what I or anyone here thinks or feels about the subject. We only have the ability to control ourselves. Helping to make it common knowledge though is a great way to lesson that number though. Though, I'm sorry, but a large number of the visitors to this site, are not collectors. And the ones that are should have enough common sense to know a MISB Scorponok is not $120. I don't know cars, but im gonna guess that I cant get a 65 chevy mint for $1000, lol.
I have sold hundreds if not thousands of the G1 Repros and never once ran across a single customer that had mistaken them for vintage. (I have had people ask, but never turn around and go, dohh, my bad I thought I paid $65 for a mint Sunstreaker that was 30 years old. I mean, seriously??
And I only do it as a hobby, I work full time, so what are the numbers of sales for the places that sell them full time, that advertise and all that good stuff?
We can guess all night, anybody interested in doing a poll and asking people this question? It has to have at least 1 to 5 thousand people participating to really have any merit though. Just a thought.

If TransformersEmporium.com is your website, YOU are part of the problem.

http://www.transformersemporium.com/

Where do you mention that these counterfeit Transformers products are knock offs or counterfeits? It doesn't even use the word "reissue" on those pages, other than in the ads that appear on the site from Google. By not stating any of that, you are indeed preying upon consumers. It is nothing but deception.

Excuse me? I'm part of the problem?? It's bigots like you that are the real problem. I have never sold anything to anyone that didn't know exactly what they were getting! I have hundreds of feedback to prove it. What do you have??
Made up stats that prove nothing! So shove it!

Seibertron wrote:

Optimus21577 wrote: Sad to say there are going to be people that get scammed, it doesn't matter what I or anyone here thinks or feels about the subject. We only have the ability to control ourselves. Helping to make it common knowledge though is a great way to lesson that number though. Though, I'm sorry, but a large number of the visitors to this site, are not collectors. And the ones that are should have enough common sense to know a MISB Scorponok is not $120. I don't know cars, but im gonna guess that I cant get a 65 chevy mint for $1000, lol.
I have sold hundreds if not thousands of the G1 Repros and never once ran across a single customer that had mistaken them for vintage. (I have had people ask, but never turn around and go, dohh, my bad I thought I paid $65 for a mint Sunstreaker that was 30 years old. I mean, seriously??
And I only do it as a hobby, I work full time, so what are the numbers of sales for the places that sell them full time, that advertise and all that good stuff?
We can guess all night, anybody interested in doing a poll and asking people this question? It has to have at least 1 to 5 thousand people participating to really have any merit though. Just a thought.

If TransformersEmporium.com is your website, YOU are part of the problem.

http://www.transformersemporium.com/

Where do you mention that these counterfeit Transformers products are "reissues" (as some of you like to call them) or KOs or let's just call them exactly what they are ... counterfeits. By not stating any of that, you are indeed preying upon consumers. It is nothing but deception.

Omega-1 wrote:And this brings me back to my point about being elitist. You are telling people that if they can't afford the outrageous prices of originals then it's too bad for you.

I worked very hard to obtain my collection fair and square. If working hard to put food on my family's table and having enough leftover to buy the items I desire for my collection make me elitist as you call it, then so be it.

Optimus21577 wrote:Excuse me? I'm part of the problem?? It's bigots like you that are the real problem. I have never sold anything to anyone that didn't know exactly what they were getting! I have hundreds of feedback to prove it. What do you have??
Made up stats that prove nothing! So shove it!

Chill out. There is no bigotry here. I'm only discussing what I feel is right or wrong.

If you want to prove that you are not part of the problem, then change the descriptions on your website to state what those products really are instead of preying upon uninformed customers.

Transformers/Hasbro & Takara are Copyrighted Trademarks and Not Owned By Myself~ Reproduction & 3rd Party Items are only Purchased & Redistributed to fans who do not have these readily available in their area. Thank you. And take care. Till All Are One!

This has always been on my sites front page.. Or maybe its the new items page about preorders that sometimes confuse people. ??????

You have a lot of nerve. Site owner, I had you pegged earlier didn't I???

"It kills you because your afraid it hurts the value of your collection."

I'm glad we cleared that up because this conversation is over!"

Optimus21577 wrote:
Excuse me? I'm part of the problem?? It's bigots like you that are the real problem. I have never sold anything to anyone that didn't know exactly what they were getting! I have hundreds of feedback to prove it. What do you have??
Made up stats that prove nothing! So shove it!

Seibertron wrote:

Optimus21577 wrote: Sad to say there are going to be people that get scammed, it doesn't matter what I or anyone here thinks or feels about the subject. We only have the ability to control ourselves. Helping to make it common knowledge though is a great way to lesson that number though. Though, I'm sorry, but a large number of the visitors to this site, are not collectors. And the ones that are should have enough common sense to know a MISB Scorponok is not $120. I don't know cars, but im gonna guess that I cant get a 65 chevy mint for $1000, lol.
I have sold hundreds if not thousands of the G1 Repros and never once ran across a single customer that had mistaken them for vintage. (I have had people ask, but never turn around and go, dohh, my bad I thought I paid $65 for a mint Sunstreaker that was 30 years old. I mean, seriously??
And I only do it as a hobby, I work full time, so what are the numbers of sales for the places that sell them full time, that advertise and all that good stuff?
We can guess all night, anybody interested in doing a poll and asking people this question? It has to have at least 1 to 5 thousand people participating to really have any merit though. Just a thought.

If TransformersEmporium.com is your website, YOU are part of the problem.

http://www.transformersemporium.com/

Where do you mention that these counterfeit Transformers products are "reissues" (as some of you like to call them) or KOs or let's just call them exactly what they are ... counterfeits. By not stating any of that, you are indeed preying upon consumers. It is nothing but deception.

Change what again??? Try and read the whole page before you slander someone maybe?
Yea.. That's what I thought!

Seibertron wrote:

Optimus21577 wrote:Excuse me? I'm part of the problem?? It's bigots like you that are the real problem. I have never sold anything to anyone that didn't know exactly what they were getting! I have hundreds of feedback to prove it. What do you have??
Made up stats that prove nothing! So shove it!

You are something else calling me a "bigot". Your misuse or lack of understanding of the word is unfortunate.

If you want to prove that you are not part of the problem, then change the descriptions on your website to state what those products really are instead of preying upon uninformed customers.

Optimus21577 wrote:
Transformers/Hasbro & Takara are Copyrighted Trademarks and Not Owned By Myself~ Reproduction & 3rd Party Items are only Purchased & Redistributed to fans who do not have these readily available in their area. Thank you. And take care. Till All Are One!

This has always been on my sites front page.. Or maybe its the new items page about preorders that sometimes confuse people. ??????

The disclaimer you mentioned on the homepage uses a smaller font size buried amongst other content which people will look over. The text is actually styled with the smallest font class size in your style sheet "size8" which is only 10 pixels in height, compared to the paragraphs above it which use various sizes but most common are the classes that are around 16 pixels in height (not to mention the paragraph that is above your disclaimer uses a class that's 19 pixels ... almost twice as large as the disclaimer's size). That disclaimer is also not on the individual item pages, which is where it should be located most importantly to ensure there is no confusion about what someone is purchasing. The lack of accurate descriptions and titles show that the intent is to deceive. If you were proudly standing behind these counterfeit products, you would state up front on all of the item pages exactly what it is that you are selling.

Optimus21577 wrote:You have a lot of nerve. Site owner, I had you pegged earlier didn't I???

"It kills you because your afraid it hurts the value of your collection."

I'm glad we cleared that up because this conversation is over!"

I've never said that. Nowhere in this topic have I said that. In fact, I've said the opposite of what you said. I stated at least once in this topic that I welcome official reissues so that collectors have a chance to get new and less expensive versions of desired toys. I'm not concerned with how official reissues impact the value of my collection. As far as any monetary comments I've made in this topic, I've only said that I worked hard to obtain these figures. I don't think it's right that people buy or justify counterfeit products as a replacement for an official product. If you want that item, save some money up and go buy an official version of that product.

Even on Transformers Emporium's Facebook page, the intention to deceive consumers continues by stating that Transformers Emporium sells "Transformers reissues". I don't see any mention of the words "knock off", "counterfeit", "unofficial" or even "reproduction" on the Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/reissues.transformersemporium

Edit: I just realized that even the Facebook username (reissues.transformersemporium) is deceptive by having the word "reissues" in it. Wow! Transformers Emporium is not helping the cause of those who want to argue for the counterfeit market at all. It's actually really just proving the point of those of us who are against the counterfeit Transformers market.

Once again, your ignorance knows no bounds..
That is a page generated my Intuit which I have no control over the info put in there because its fill in automatically from my sites info.
But if you had hit the about button and then the see all.
OMG.. What does it say, yep, it clearly states that these are not vintage.
And now we all know the intelligence behind this site which obviously ran by a Hasbro brown noser. So, you wanna look dumber than you've already made yourself out to be or would you like to continue??

Seibertron wrote:Even on Transformers Emporium's Facebook page, the intention to deceive consumers continues by stating that Transformers Emporium sells "Transformers reissues". I don't see any mention of the words "knock off", "counterfeit", "unofficial" or even "reproduction" on the Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/reissues.transformersemporium

Edit: I just realized that even the Facebook username (reissues.transformersemporium) is deceptive by having the word "reissues" in it. Wow! Transformers Emporium is not helping the cause of those who want to argue for the counterfeit market at all. It's actually really just proving the point of those of us who are against the counterfeit Transformers market.

Here is my initial feeling towards those who are very adamant towards defending these KOs and dismissing those who are trying to protect unsuspecting buyers - In reality, based on those who have experience in this field, you have no defense. Because nobody here is forcing you to toss them away, refuse to buy them, etc. Most of us are saying it is okay if this is your option. But we are also saying that there is factually a large volume, even experts, who have been duped into buying what they thought was a legit piece... REGARDLESS OF PRICE AND SITE.

So lets say you are all into KOs for your own reason. What good does this for the rest of the community? Are you doing a blog showing your KO collection with details on how they differentiate from the original? Are you doing a website educating others of what to look for in a KO while offering links to honest sellers that sell these? If so, instead of disputing the numbers, why don't you defend these with sites to either aspect? Because that is the only way you can dismiss anybody , including those who have a greater grasp on this subject. Because in the end, more will warn against this practice than promote it. And even then, the facts will be that the number of those knowingly bought KOs will be a percentage less than those who have been duped.

In all cases, if you collect KOs, Milton Bradley, Hasbro, Takara, Takara Tomy, or even the other companies that make legit and/or KO products, and third-parties... That is fine. What is not fine is the need to put your preferences first and snubbing others who do not share them. Because this is more about the mass volume of uninformed, not your rights. If you cannot accept it, and do nothing in regards of helping... You have no defense. It is that clear. And I say this as somebody who has been on all three ends of this spectrum.

Seibertron wrote:

Omega-1 wrote:And this brings me back to my point about being elitist. You are telling people that if they can't afford the outrageous prices of originals then it's too bad for you.

I worked very hard to obtain my collection fair and square. If working hard to put food on my family's table and having enough leftover to buy the items I desire for my collection make me elitist as you call it, then so be it.

I don't question that you've worked very hard to have what you have and good on you. Being able to buy things that you can afford does not make someone an elitist. Trying to prevent people less fortunate than you be apart of a hobby that you belong to because you don't want to dilute the purity of your hobby makes you an elitist. I have nothing against that. I just get annoyed if you try to tell me that somehow it is more virtuous of you to fight for someone to own an original toy (luxury item) than it is for me to fight for someone less fortunate to own an affordable (counterfeit) toy.

An expencive KO is still a luxury item.

Optimus21577 wrote:Once again, your ignorance knows no bounds..
That is a page generated my Intuit which I have no control over the info put in there because its fill in automatically from my sites info.
But if you had hit the about button and then the see all.
OMG.. What does it say, yep, it clearly states that these are not vintage.
And now we all know the intelligence behind this site which obviously ran by a Hasbro brown noser. So, you wanna look dumber than you've already made yourself out to be or would you like to continue??

I think you have done a fine job of stating all that needs to be said. Thank you.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:An expencive KO is still a luxury item.

Of course all toys are luxury items. But I mean luxury item in the context of the hobby.

Omega-1 wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:An expencive KO is still a luxury item.

Of course all toys are luxury items. But I mean luxury item in the context of the hobby.

This entire hobby is o ne biiiiiiiig luxury item. It's really not a case of the haves VS the have-nots.

Omega-1 wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:An expencive KO is still a luxury item.

Of course all toys are luxury items. But I mean luxury item in the context of the hobby.

A $130 counterfeit item is still a luxury item in the context of this hobby. A $20 Voyager class figure is a luxury item as well.

Seibertron wrote:I think you have done a fine job of stating all that needs to be said. Thank you.

I think it's unfair to judge Optimus21577 as trying to deceive people when you don't know him and you don't know his intentions. It is enough to tell him that the use of "reissue" is insufficient to tell people that the toys are a "counterfeit". You can suggest for him to call them "unofficial reproductions" or something like that.

He is trying to sell his items so asking him to call them "counterfeit" doesn't sound reasonable to me. "Counterfeit" give the connotation of cheap quality items (unless his items are of cheap quality). Hopefully, he will understand that and change the wording on list sale items.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Omega-1 wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:An expencive KO is still a luxury item.

Of course all toys are luxury items. But I mean luxury item in the context of the hobby.

This entire hobby is o ne biiiiiiiig luxury item. It's really not a case of the haves VS the have-nots.

Is that not what I just said? The hobby is toys and toys are luxury items. But relatively speaking a $50 KO complete G1 Wheeljack is less expensive than a $150 complete original Wheeljack. Lets compare apples to apples and not compare that to a recent retail deluxe release.

Omega-1 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:I think you have done a fine job of stating all that needs to be said. Thank you.

I think it's unfair to judge Optimus21577 as trying to deceive people when you don't know him and you don't know his intentions. It is enough to tell him that the use of "reissue" is insufficient to tell people that the toys are a "counterfeit". You can suggest for him to call them "unofficial reproductions" or something like that.

He is trying to sell his items so asking him to call them "counterfeit" doesn't sound reasonable to me. "Counterfeit" give the connotation of cheap quality items (unless his items are of cheap quality). Hopefully, he will understand that and change the wording on list sale items.

You are correct. I should've stated that many people would/could perceive the intentions as deceptive by excluding that information on the item pages. I assumed that not disclosing that information on the individual item pages was deliberate or intentional. Perhaps it was simply overlooked and an honest mistake. I'll give Optimus21577 the benefit of the doubt in hopes that he will understand my point and change the information accordingly for the sake of transparency about the counterfeit items he is selling.

I've never even thought of that...
My front page is so cluttered and I never have time to work
on the site itself. I'm just to busy.
But it will only take me a min to copy and paste it to all the pages.
I'll do it right now.
But I'm still mad at you.. lol.

Seibertron wrote:

Omega-1 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:I think you have done a fine job of stating all that needs to be said. Thank you.

I think it's unfair to judge Optimus21577 as trying to deceive people when you don't know him and you don't know his intentions. It is enough to tell him that the use of "reissue" is insufficient to tell people that the toys are a "counterfeit". You can suggest for him to call them "unofficial reproductions" or something like that.

He is trying to sell his items so asking him to call them "counterfeit" doesn't sound reasonable to me. "Counterfeit" give the connotation of cheap quality items (unless his items are of cheap quality). Hopefully, he will understand that and change the wording on list sale items.

You are correct. I should've stated that by not disclosing that information on the item pages could be perceived as deceptive by many people. I assumed that not disclosing that information on the individual item pages was deliberate or intentional. Perhaps it was simply overlooked and an honest mistake. I'll give Optimus21577 and hope that he will understand my point and change the information accordingly for the sake of transparency about the items that he is selling.

Omega-1 wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Omega-1 wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:An expencive KO is still a luxury item.

Of course all toys are luxury items. But I mean luxury item in the context of the hobby.

This entire hobby is o ne biiiiiiiig luxury item. It's really not a case of the haves VS the have-nots.

Is that not what I just said? The hobby is toys and toys are luxury items. But relatively speaking a $50 KO complete G1 Wheeljack is less expensive than a $150 complete original Wheeljack. Lets compare apples to apples and not compare that to a recent retail deluxe release.

Your post made it seem like Seib's is irrelevant because he likes his TFs official. But an expencive KO TF is still expencive. I don't think it's right to say you're sticking up for people who can't afford things when they can afford a $50 complete KO Wheeljack. I mean that's also pretty pricy. Less pricy than a legit version, but even so.

Optimus21577 wrote:
Change what again??? Try and read the whole page before you slander someone maybe?
Yea.. That's what I thought!

Seibertron wrote:

Optimus21577 wrote:Excuse me? I'm part of the problem?? It's bigots like you that are the real problem. I have never sold anything to anyone that didn't know exactly what they were getting! I have hundreds of feedback to prove it. What do you have??
Made up stats that prove nothing! So shove it!

You are something else calling me a "bigot". Your misuse or lack of understanding of the word is unfortunate.

If you want to prove that you are not part of the problem, then change the descriptions on your website to state what those products really are instead of preying upon uninformed customers.

And now we have allegations of bigotry being tossed around in a KO thread. Things were actually really civil for about 9 pages, too.

Okay, Optimus 21577, two things:

1.) Seib DID just (unintentionally) give your site a plug and potential bump in traffic by posting that link. You could've smugly thanked him for that and maintained some semblance of a decent argument instead of blowing your stack.

2.) That blue text is hurting my eyes. No one will be swayed by your arguments if they can't even read them.

And Seib: I'm sorry to dig up something from so far back in the thread, but there's one point that needs to be made before this thread gets locked, and it's about a couple paragraphs of yours that I have to take issue with:

Seibertron wrote:Rationalizing that KOs are a good thing in any manner is a selfish view and a view that fails to see the big problem in the long run. It could also be argued the same about official reissues, but they're quality items and in many cases the reissues retain the value of the originals or even surpass their value in some cases. There is a big difference between a quality official reissue and an unofficial unlicensed counterfeit product that doesn't have to meet certain quality standards.

We collectors have a huge responsibility to make sure that future generations of Transformers fans get to enjoy quality Transformers products without having every item run the risk of being a faulty or flawed or counterfeit product. Maybe some of you don't care about this and only care about what you can afford or get your hands on. There is a much bigger picture regarding all of this. I hope that those of you who think that counterfeit products belong in this market will take some time to ponder what items like that do to water down this brand and the enjoyment of collectors in the long run.

From my big-picture perspective, this "future generations" line of reasoning falls apart...well, the moment Black Zarak, G2 Slingshot, the Ultra Pretenders, and Electro literally fall apart. I agree about us having an obligation to future generations of Transfans, which is precisely why I enthusiastically support KOs: in hopes that the industry will reproduce corrected versions of figures with GPS and other structural defects that Hasbro and Takara have zero chance of ever reproducing, either due to lack of demand or molds degrading/disappearing. In a future where the last example of an official toy has crumbled to dust, the near-exact-repro-KO that fixed its defects is, in fact, a generous public service to fans who want to know what the figure was like from more than just pictures and word of mouth, so I honestly take offense at the statement that any support of KOs is purely selfish, and I'm glad that CHMS is making even the figures I have no interest in ever owning. You, of course, were indisputably generous when you opened your Black Zarak to give us all a gallery, but take a good close look at all those swirls in his shiny plastic before you tell me I'm entirely wrong about this.

We'd all like our toys to last forever, but that's not possible, so the ability to preserve them long term actually means making sure someone out there has the ability to keep reproducing them. It'd be nice if that someone was always HasTak, but the degraded molds of Mirage, Wheeljack, and Sunstreaker, and the missing molds of Aerialbots and Beast Wars basics say otherwise. If the official companies won't reverse-mold, then official versions of those toys have already lost their right to exist in the long run. I therefore feel a moral obligation to support those toys' existence in counterfeit form. I honestly feel that outweighs long-term confusion over what's legit or not, though you're right that it will happen no matter how honest dealers try to be.

I realize this argument I'm making holds the most weight for KOs of GPS figures, and hardly any have been made: Would Killbison be the only one to date? (The pink plastic used in my Scattershot and Skullcruncher developed a softness around the pins over time that led me to buy a real replacement for the former, but has anyone else encountered this problem?) I'd especially love to see some Euro-Exclusives get KOs that fix the GPS problem, since their obscurity + the choking-hazard missiles = no chance in HELL of legit reissues. Skyquake especially: you can't even use the scope-gimmick on his real toy without breaking it! For him to exist (and especially poor Autobot commander Hyperdrive, who only exists in his cursed GPS supersight) I'd say he NEEDS to be KOed.

The issue is only going to get more confusing over time as well. The reason this has to stay debatable is that no one can accurately draw lines between KOs, 3rd Party stuff, and fan-made/custom stuff; or more accurately, if official companies do, it's not going to be exactly where any fan thinks it should be. As 3-D resin printers become cheaper and more accurate, the differences may become so blurry that the only way to legally stop it would be Hasbro passing a policy mirroring ACTA or SOPA/PIPA, which this site stood against over a year ago. And if that's the case, heck, maybe certain toy molds that Hasbro and Takara have both given up on will become public-domain, like some old movies. If people pay producers of those 50-movie box sets for their service of simply making copies of films and TV shows in order to preserve and distribute them, might our grandchildren someday pay KO-producers for the same service? Yes, I know the exact-repro-packaging problem screws up that parallel, it's just food for thought.

...BUT then again, since Hasbro didn't preserve the G1 animated commercials, if some intrepid employee of theirs had stole the masters and made surviving, high-quality copies somehow, would we call them a criminal or a hero stealing Hasbro's IP?

Preserving GPS prone figures is a good argument to make, but one that only covers a small minority of figures and not the vast majority of KOs that are made. So saying a KO of Black Zarak is a good way to preserve a figure that's falling apart doesn't really justify the KO of Scorpinok who suffers no such problem.

And it doesn't really address the concern about buying legit versions on the aftermarket, which is really the sticking point.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Preserving GPS prone figures is a good argument to make, but one that only covers a small minority of figures and not the vast majority of KOs that are made. So saying a KO of Black Zarak is a good way to preserve a figure that's falling apart doesn't really justify the KO of Scorpinok who suffers no such problem.

And it doesn't really address the concern about buying legit versions on the aftermarket, which is really the sticking point.

I'm on the same page as you, Gauntlet101010.

I do think there is a spot for reproduction stickers and parts but that's a personal gray area because I have conflicting opinions for which I can not make a rational argument for or against that isn't hypocritical and for which I would be unable to make compelling or persuasive arguments.