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AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Fires_Of_Inferno wrote:Well I hope it's just a rebranding because 2 Masterpiece Beast Wars Predacons is NOT enough! Especially since I decided to forgo getting any of the Maximals in order to focus on Predacons.

Exactly. They announce MP Rhinox after years of NOTHING and then pull this? Just finish the BW line! It's significantly closer than any other (non-movie) MP line. G1, they've dragging their heels on for 20 years. They literally could have finished every character that didn't require a license by now and chose not to.

Haha, yeah, their choices for this line has been baffling. We don't even have the first 5 Maximals yet as they never made a Rattrap. It's only 5 characters! Still can't have a completed display!

Optimus Primal released in freaking 2016. It's been 7 years and we've only gotten 8 characters total from the show (plus Leo Prime I guess, if you count BW2). I can't imagine trying to stick with this line long enough to get the entire G1 cast. No wonder 3P has eaten Takara's lunch on this market.

Spider5800 wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Fires_Of_Inferno wrote:Well I hope it's just a rebranding because 2 Masterpiece Beast Wars Predacons is NOT enough! Especially since I decided to forgo getting any of the Maximals in order to focus on Predacons.

Exactly. They announce MP Rhinox after years of NOTHING and then pull this? Just finish the BW line! It's significantly closer than any other (non-movie) MP line. G1, they've dragging their heels on for 20 years. They literally could have finished every character that didn't require a license by now and chose not to.

Haha, yeah, their choices for this line has been baffling. We don't even have the first 5 Maximals yet as they never made a Rattrap. It's only 5 characters.

Optimus Primal released in freaking 2016. It's been 7 years and we've only gotten 8 characters total from the show (plus Leo Prime I guess, if you count BW2). I can't imagine trying to stick with this line long enough to get the entire G1 cast.

It should probably be pointed out that all of the Beast Wars MPs are part of the same main MP line as the G1 characters, as Takara doesn't treat them as a separate line despite being from a different show. Likewise, Star Saber, Soundblaster, and Lio Convoy were all from different shows too, but they as well were part of the main MP line. And even the likes of Ultra Magnus and Rodimus were from what was considered a separate show in Japan (G1 season 3 was treated as a separate cartoon called Transformers: 2010), and they too were part of the main line. And with the inclusion of MP-60 Ginrai, the main Masterpiece line consists of characters from seven different Transformers series in Japan, but all are counted as part of the same single MP line because all of these characters are from the same single continuity/universe. And had the separate-universe character Armada Optimus won the fan vote that Star Saber won, he too would have been part of the main MP line and not a separate line.

Spider5800 wrote:No wonder 3P has eaten Takara's lunch on this market.

Honestly, I think it's the opposite. HasTak have allowed the 3P market (for the most part) because they never had any intention of completing the Masterpiece line. At some point, perhaps around MP-10. I think the enormity (in scope and cost) of the task at hand must have become apparent. They just held up their hands and passed the buck to 3P's. While feigning disproval. Let 3P do Masterpiece Monsterbots, for example. Because Takara can't/won't.

I'm still hoping MPG is being rebranded so the G stands for Generations instead of Gattai. Basically it would become a sibling line to the regular Generations line and explain doing strange things like making Raiden the size of a Generations combiner rather than proper MP scale. It would also open things up more to other brands since traditionally the regular MP line has always been G1 based (which includes G2 and Beast Wars). The specific use of "generation" in the blurb doesn't feel accidental. The Unicron trilogy is now at the point with its youngest fans that G1 was at with its youngest fans when the MP line started so it makes sense if they want to start doing Armada Masterpieces without having to come up with new labels and numbering systems every time.

That's my prediction anyway, I don't think strictly doing MPs that combine moving forward is reason enough to kill the MP line.

Emerje

Emerje wrote:I'm still hoping MPG is being rebranded so the G stands for Generations instead of Gattai.

The G also stands for "Giant" and "Great".

Ohh? Perhaps if 'G' becomes Generations we are moving the MP line away from Sunbow and into the other 30+ years of Transformers?

Sabrblade wrote:It should probably be pointed out that all of the Beast Wars MPs are part of the same main MP line as the G1 characters, as Takara doesn't treat them as a separate line despite being from a different show. Likewise, Star Saber, Soundblaster, and Lio Convoy were all from different shows too, but they as well were part of the main MP line. And even the likes of Ultra Magnus and Rodimus were from what was considered a separate show in Japan (G1 season 3 was treated as a separate cartoon called Transformers: 2010), and they too were part of the main line. And with the inclusion of MP-60 Ginrai, the main Masterpiece line consists of characters from seven different Transformers series in Japan, but all are counted as part of the same single MP line because all of these characters are from the same single continuity/universe. And had the separate-universe character Armada Optimus won the fan vote that Star Saber won, he too would have been part of the main MP line and not a separate line.

I get that, but even with all the stuff they're pulling from, the line feels mismanaged. It's been over 20 years, and they still haven't finished the season 1 Autobots. Really think about that. A person born the year MP-1 came out can legally drink now, and there still isn't a full cast done. That's INSANE.

MP Dinobot came out in 2018, and then a two year wait for MP Tigatron, and then another FOUR years for MP Rhinox. That's absurd. People have quit collecting in that kind of timeframe.

I know it's a whole other beast, but Generations has been pulling from multiple continuities for years as well and never had this problem. Could get the entire BW S1 cast within 2 years. The lack of focus on the MP side is staggering.

Sabrblade wrote:

Emerje wrote:I'm still hoping MPG is being rebranded so the G stands for Generations instead of Gattai.

The G also stands for "Giant" and "Great".

Either way, it's been known as the combiner line, now it may be known as something else if they change what the G stands for.

Emerje

Spider5800 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:It should probably be pointed out that all of the Beast Wars MPs are part of the same main MP line as the G1 characters, as Takara doesn't treat them as a separate line despite being from a different show. Likewise, Star Saber, Soundblaster, and Lio Convoy were all from different shows too, but they as well were part of the main MP line. And even the likes of Ultra Magnus and Rodimus were from what was considered a separate show in Japan (G1 season 3 was treated as a separate cartoon called Transformers: 2010), and they too were part of the main line. And with the inclusion of MP-60 Ginrai, the main Masterpiece line consists of characters from seven different Transformers series in Japan, but all are counted as part of the same single MP line because all of these characters are from the same single continuity/universe. And had the separate-universe character Armada Optimus won the fan vote that Star Saber won, he too would have been part of the main MP line and not a separate line.

I get that, but even with all the stuff they're pulling from, the line feels mismanaged. It's been over 20 years, and they still haven't finished the season 1 Autobots. Really think about that. A person born the year MP-1 came out can legally drink now, and there still isn't a full cast done. That's INSANE.

MP Dinobot came out in 2018, and then a two year wait for MP Tigatron, and then another FOUR years for MP Rhinox. That's absurd. People have quit collecting in that kind of timeframe.

I know it's a whole other beast, but Generations has been pulling from multiple continuities for years as well and never had this problem. Could get the entire BW S1 cast within 2 years. The lack of focus on the MP side is staggering.

Guess we can call it a testament of how poorly the MP line has sold over the years in Japan. Transformers is not as big in Japan as it is in the west, so it was always an uphill battle for the MP line to gain traction in the Japanese market (the line's primarily market). The number of new-mold MPs released each year has plummeted as the years have passed, with the bulk of releases each year being reuses of existing molds. 2022 and 2023 both saw only three new MPs released, and only one of those three each year was a new mold (Trailbreaker in 2022, Skyfire in 2023). This year we have five MPs, but only two are new molds and the rest are mold reuses.

Emerje wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Emerje wrote:I'm still hoping MPG is being rebranded so the G stands for Generations instead of Gattai.

The G also stands for "Giant" and "Great".

Either way, it's been known as the combiner line, now it may be known as something else if they change what the G stands for.

Emerje

It also stands for Gastric.

As Japanese video game developers are also discovering lately. Maybe relying on the home market to the detriment of the world beyond, wasn't the right play.

Meanwhile, ala Kapow Toys:


Transformers Masterpiece MP-60 Jinrai ( Powermaster Optimus Prime Cab ) - £149.99 £139.95

Box includes:

Jinrai Cab
Blaster x 2
Powermaster mini figure x 1
Blast effect x 2

Transformers Masterpiece MPG-09 Super Jinrai ( Powermaster Optimus Prime ) - £279.95 £269.95

Box includes:

Jinrai
Trailer x 1
Core Robot Blaster x 2
Super Mode Robot Blaster x 2
Powermaster Robot ( transforming ) x 1
Static Powermaster Robot x 1
Dual Cannon for Super Mode x 2
Blast effect x 2
Super Mode Lightning effect x 2
Super Mode Jinrai head x 2
Hands x 2

These items have a release estimate of January 2025 subject to delays.

Sabrblade wrote:Guess we can call it a testament of how poorly the MP line has sold over the years in Japan. Transformers is not as big in Japan as it is in the west, so it was always an uphill battle for the MP line to gain traction in the Japanese market (the line's primarily market). The number of new-mold MPs released each year has plummeted as the years have passed, with the bulk of releases each year being reuses of existing molds. 2022 and 2023 both saw only three new MPs released, and only one of those three each year was a new mold (Trailbreaker in 2022, Skyfire in 2023). This year we have five MPs, but only two are new molds and the rest are mold reuses.

Probably does not help that they kept trying to reinvent the wheel with the line every couple of years. MP-1 vs MP-10 vs MP-44 don't look like they they're even from the same toyline, haha.

Spider5800 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:Guess we can call it a testament of how poorly the MP line has sold over the years in Japan. Transformers is not as big in Japan as it is in the west, so it was always an uphill battle for the MP line to gain traction in the Japanese market (the line's primarily market). The number of new-mold MPs released each year has plummeted as the years have passed, with the bulk of releases each year being reuses of existing molds. 2022 and 2023 both saw only three new MPs released, and only one of those three each year was a new mold (Trailbreaker in 2022, Skyfire in 2023). This year we have five MPs, but only two are new molds and the rest are mold reuses.

Probably does not help that they kept trying to reinvent the wheel with the line every couple of years. MP-1 vs MP-10 vs MP-44 don't look like they they're even from the same toyline, haha.

Perhaps the declining sales were why they kept trying to reinvent it, to spark new life into it to keep it from going under (until now).

I think it's also an EXTREME niche market. It's difficult to build a successful business model on niche clients, especially for larger companies who register success completely differently.

I dunno, I think the lack of overall focus really hurt the MP series as a whole as well as the QC issues.

Like ... Can you really call something a "masterpiece" if it suffers from shattering knee joints right out of the box? Or scuffed paint in normal transformation?

The argument's being made that there isn't a market for these, but there's numerous 3P MPs out there that seem to belie that.

I think if they put out a mission statement - and stuck to that - the line might have done better. Maybe if they had released a picture with the cast they intended to make then people could look forward to and plan for it. But, like, who have they done? Some Season 1, some Season 2, Hot Rod, Arcee, and Ultra Magnus. A few Beast Wars. Star Saber and Raiden(?). And, apparently, Raiden underwhelmed?! And now Super Ginrai. And, I guess, if we want God Ginrai we'll have to go 3P.

And the quality. You can't call it a "masterpiece" if it breaks too easily.

And the price. I mean it's one thing to say "Transformers isn't that popular in Japan", but how much is the average fan really going to pay for Hoist or Skids? I mean every TF is someone's favourite and all, but ... we got Skids and we didn't get Blaster. Or Jazz. I mean come on. There are some obviously popular characters and others that are less popular.

But, yeah. I mean if anyone really wanted an MP of whatever TF character would they wait a decade and, maybe, it never shows up? Or it shows up and is terrible? Or do they go 3P? Personally, I prefer to buy official for my faves, but if I waited on that MP Galvatron I'd be outta luck.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And now Super Ginrai. And, I guess, if we want God Ginrai we'll have to go 3P.

Why wouldn't they simply put Godbomber in the MPG line when he's as much a combiner as MPG Super Ginrai?

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And the price. I mean it's one thing to say "Transformers isn't that popular in Japan", but how much is the average fan really going to pay for Hoist or Skids? I mean every TF is someone's favourite and all, but ... we got Skids and we didn't get Blaster. Or Jazz. I mean come on. There are some obviously popular characters and others that are less popular.

For Skids, it was less about the character and more about his altmode, which is a car type that is a much bigger deal in Japan than the rest of the world. Honda made a big deal about it.

Sabrblade wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And now Super Ginrai. And, I guess, if we want God Ginrai we'll have to go 3P.

Why wouldn't they simply put Godbomber in the MPG line when he's as much a combiner as MPG Super Ginrai?

I guess they could, buy why would I assume they would at this point? They haven't advertised it and, lacking any info that it's coming or in production, I'm going to assume it isn't a thing.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And the price. I mean it's one thing to say "Transformers isn't that popular in Japan", but how much is the average fan really going to pay for Hoist or Skids? I mean every TF is someone's favourite and all, but ... we got Skids and we didn't get Blaster. Or Jazz. I mean come on. There are some obviously popular characters and others that are less popular.

For Skids, it was less about the character and more about his altmode, which is a car type that is a much bigger deal in Japan than the rest of the world. Honda made a big deal about it.[/quote]
[/quote]
Was it a success?

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And now Super Ginrai. And, I guess, if we want God Ginrai we'll have to go 3P.

Why wouldn't they simply put Godbomber in the MPG line when he's as much a combiner as MPG Super Ginrai?

I guess they could, buy why would I assume they would at this point? They haven't advertised it and, lacking any info that it's coming or in production, I'm going to assume it isn't a thing.

They only just revealed Super Ginrai. It's not like every Autobot leader's Magic Mushroom partner gets revealed at the same time. The original Godbomber, CR God Magnus, Armada Jetfire, Armada Overload, Energon Omega Supreme, Energon Wing Saber, Cybertron Leobreaker, and Cybertron Wing Saber all came out long after their respective wearers, and each of those wearers never advertised any of their upgrade partners upon their initial releases either.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And the price. I mean it's one thing to say "Transformers isn't that popular in Japan", but how much is the average fan really going to pay for Hoist or Skids? I mean every TF is someone's favourite and all, but ... we got Skids and we didn't get Blaster. Or Jazz. I mean come on. There are some obviously popular characters and others that are less popular.

For Skids, it was less about the character and more about his altmode, which is a car type that is a much bigger deal in Japan than the rest of the world. Honda made a big deal about it.

Was it a success?

Apparently enough to churn out three more separate-character uses of the mold as Reboost (who was boldly released on the same day as Skids), Crosscut (who saw release a mere four months after the first two), and Burn Out (just under a year after Crosscut).

Sabrblade wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And now Super Ginrai. And, I guess, if we want God Ginrai we'll have to go 3P.

Why wouldn't they simply put Godbomber in the MPG line when he's as much a combiner as MPG Super Ginrai?

I guess they could, buy why would I assume they would at this point? They haven't advertised it and, lacking any info that it's coming or in production, I'm going to assume it isn't a thing.

They only just revealed Super Ginrai. It's not like every Autobot leader's Magic Mushroom partner gets revealed at the same time. The original Godbomber, CR God Magnus, Armada Jetfire, Armada Overload, Energon Omega Supreme, Energon Wing Saber, Cybertron Leobreaker, and Cybertron Wing Saber all came out long after their respective wearers, and each of those wearers never advertised any of their upgrade partners upon their initial releases either.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And the price. I mean it's one thing to say "Transformers isn't that popular in Japan", but how much is the average fan really going to pay for Hoist or Skids? I mean every TF is someone's favourite and all, but ... we got Skids and we didn't get Blaster. Or Jazz. I mean come on. There are some obviously popular characters and others that are less popular.

For Skids, it was less about the character and more about his altmode, which is a car type that is a much bigger deal in Japan than the rest of the world. Honda made a big deal about it.

Was it a success?

Apparently enough to churn out three more separate-character uses of the mold as Reboost (who was boldly released on the same day as Skids), Crosscut (who saw release a mere four months after the first two), and Burn Out (just under a year after Crosscut).

You can't tell me that the reason some molds were made and other weren't had nothing to do with repaintability. Why did they make Starscream MP1? Because they knew Thundrecracker and Skywarp would sell afterwards. Then they added the coneheads. Then Acid Storm and Sunstorm. Optimus? Regular colors, anime accurate, Nemesis Prime, Shattered Glass. Hoist? Trailbreaker at the least. Skids? 4 repaints. WHy no Jazz? Really only 1 repaint possibility and even that isn't going to be popular. Jetfire? You KNEW that was going to sell if done well. The rest? All dependent on how many times they can use the mold. I'm also convinced that's why we haven't gotten more Beast Wars characters....there's minimal repaint potential.

Sabrblade wrote:

Spider5800 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:It should probably be pointed out that all of the Beast Wars MPs are part of the same main MP line as the G1 characters, as Takara doesn't treat them as a separate line despite being from a different show. Likewise, Star Saber, Soundblaster, and Lio Convoy were all from different shows too, but they as well were part of the main MP line. And even the likes of Ultra Magnus and Rodimus were from what was considered a separate show in Japan (G1 season 3 was treated as a separate cartoon called Transformers: 2010), and they too were part of the main line. And with the inclusion of MP-60 Ginrai, the main Masterpiece line consists of characters from seven different Transformers series in Japan, but all are counted as part of the same single MP line because all of these characters are from the same single continuity/universe. And had the separate-universe character Armada Optimus won the fan vote that Star Saber won, he too would have been part of the main MP line and not a separate line.

I get that, but even with all the stuff they're pulling from, the line feels mismanaged. It's been over 20 years, and they still haven't finished the season 1 Autobots. Really think about that. A person born the year MP-1 came out can legally drink now, and there still isn't a full cast done. That's INSANE.

MP Dinobot came out in 2018, and then a two year wait for MP Tigatron, and then another FOUR years for MP Rhinox. That's absurd. People have quit collecting in that kind of timeframe.

I know it's a whole other beast, but Generations has been pulling from multiple continuities for years as well and never had this problem. Could get the entire BW S1 cast within 2 years. The lack of focus on the MP side is staggering.

Guess we can call it a testament of how poorly the MP line has sold over the years in Japan. Transformers is not as big in Japan as it is in the west, so it was always an uphill battle for the MP line to gain traction in the Japanese market (the line's primarily market). The number of new-mold MPs released each year has plummeted as the years have passed, with the bulk of releases each year being reuses of existing molds. 2022 and 2023 both saw only three new MPs released, and only one of those three each year was a new mold (Trailbreaker in 2022, Skyfire in 2023). This year we have five MPs, but only two are new molds and the rest are mold reuses.

The sales of Masterpiece have been all over since day one. Prime did well but Starscream didn't if I remember correctly because it wasn't what people were expecting. Then Megatron came and was, ok. I think the biggest tell that Masterpiece wasn't doing well was with Star Saber. It won a fan poll and set records upon release but ended up being one of the WORST-selling Masterpieces of all time. It's a shame since that was the last MP that I really enjoyed and didn't have to worry about breaking.

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And now Super Ginrai. And, I guess, if we want God Ginrai we'll have to go 3P.

Why wouldn't they simply put Godbomber in the MPG line when he's as much a combiner as MPG Super Ginrai?

I guess they could, buy why would I assume they would at this point? They haven't advertised it and, lacking any info that it's coming or in production, I'm going to assume it isn't a thing.

They only just revealed Super Ginrai. It's not like every Autobot leader's Magic Mushroom partner gets revealed at the same time. The original Godbomber, CR God Magnus, Armada Jetfire, Armada Overload, Energon Omega Supreme, Energon Wing Saber, Cybertron Leobreaker, and Cybertron Wing Saber all came out long after their respective wearers, and each of those wearers never advertised any of their upgrade partners upon their initial releases either.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And the price. I mean it's one thing to say "Transformers isn't that popular in Japan", but how much is the average fan really going to pay for Hoist or Skids? I mean every TF is someone's favourite and all, but ... we got Skids and we didn't get Blaster. Or Jazz. I mean come on. There are some obviously popular characters and others that are less popular.

For Skids, it was less about the character and more about his altmode, which is a car type that is a much bigger deal in Japan than the rest of the world. Honda made a big deal about it.

Was it a success?

Apparently enough to churn out three more separate-character uses of the mold as Reboost (who was boldly released on the same day as Skids), Crosscut (who saw release a mere four months after the first two), and Burn Out (just under a year after Crosscut).

You can't tell me that the reason some molds were made and other weren't had nothing to do with repaintability. Why did they make Starscream MP1? Because they knew Thundrecracker and Skywarp would sell afterwards. Then they added the coneheads. Then Acid Storm and Sunstorm. Optimus? Regular colors, anime accurate, Nemesis Prime, Shattered Glass. Hoist? Trailbreaker at the least. Skids? 4 repaints. WHy no Jazz? Really only 1 repaint possibility and even that isn't going to be popular. Jetfire? You KNEW that was going to sell if done well. The rest? All dependent on how many times they can use the mold. I'm also convinced that's why we haven't gotten more Beast Wars characters....there's minimal repaint potential.

You nailed it, milking the molds. Then when they're dry make 2.0 designs and start all over!

First-Aid wrote:You can't tell me that the reason some molds were made and other weren't had nothing to do with repaintability. Why did they make Starscream MP1? Because they knew Thundrecracker and Skywarp would sell afterwards. Then they added the coneheads. Then Acid Storm and Sunstorm. Optimus? Regular colors, anime accurate, Nemesis Prime, Shattered Glass. Hoist? Trailbreaker at the least. Skids? 4 repaints. WHy no Jazz? Really only 1 repaint possibility and even that isn't going to be popular. Jetfire? You KNEW that was going to sell if done well. The rest? All dependent on how many times they can use the mold. I'm also convinced that's why we haven't gotten more Beast Wars characters....there's minimal repaint potential.

I'm sure that's at least part of why they choose some, but they've done plenty of characters with limited repaintability before. Wheeljack and Tracks being the first ones I think of off the top of my head, both also only really having one repaint option.

I actually suspect Jazz has never happened because of licensing. Porsche is notoriously expensive to license from (I'm still shocked we got SS Mirage), and if they want accurate toy livery, they also have to work with Martini Racing. Probably a big ask, even with a popular character like him. It's almost certainly why SS 86 Jazz is not based on a real vehicle and has an innaccurate paintjob (missing stripes, different number, etc).

And even with regards to repaintability, the Skids mold still has at least three more options that haven't been made: The all-red Diaclone version (not to be confused with Reboost, who was the red and blue Diaclone version), Quantum Operative Skids (who is green), and Screech (who is orange with a silver Crosscut head).

First-Aid wrote:I think it's also an EXTREME niche market. It's difficult to build a successful business model on niche clients, especially for larger companies who register success completely differently.

Outside of Japan it's a niche market, in Japan giant expensive robot toys are a HUGE market. It's why they were able to charge some $900 for a massive Diaclone between two releases that's essentially a super detailed Titan. Bandai is a big maker of these things as well. By comparison MP Transformers, even Super Ginrai, are pretty affordable compared to other stuff out there. If there's a Japanese robot there's probably a $300 version of it out there.

Emerje