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Welcome to the General Discussion area where just about anything goes! This area is designed to discuss all matters and does not necessarily have to be Transformers related. Please keep topics relevant.
That's just lame! I'm sorry to say this and I don't want to insult people from SOPA en PIPA, but guys.... get real, please! Seibertron.com is first and foremost a Transformers-themed website dedicated to, staffed, and fuelled by fans of the Transformers franchise. Over the past 12 years we have been active, we have tried to avoid politics and too much involvement with the outside world as our interest is in the war on Cybertron and its universe beyond, not in domestic policy and law, so when we do decide to get involved please understand that it's over what we feel is a matter of great importance.
I have not written anything like this before and have borrowed very heavily from Tom's Hardware's post on the subject as it is by far the best bulletin I have seen to date, relating directly to real world examples of posters actions. This article is here to inform you about a couple of scary bills that could end Seibertron.com and the Internet we all know and love. SOPA is a bill in the House (and PIPA is it's Senate equivalent) that threatens to fundamentally change the way the internet works by placing excessive restrictions on user generated content such as forum posts and video and image uploads.
The intention of this topic is to cover 4 points:
To explain and examine the bills
To highlight the extent of the damage they can do to Seibertron.com (as well as the Internet)
What our members can do to help stop this.
To give a sense of urgency to the situation. PIPA is up for review on Jan 24th so we don't have much time.
The basics of the law are:
It would require web services like YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter to monitor and aggressively filter everything all users upload.
It would deny site owners due process of law, by initiating a DNS blacklisting based solely on a good faith assertion by an individual copyright or intellectual property owner.
It would give the U.S. government the power to selectively censor the web using techniques similar to those used in China, Malaysia and Iran. The Great Firewall of China is an example of this type of embedded, infrastructural internet censorship.
Spricket24 from YouTube gives a good summary of the problems we face (6+ min)
And a more detailed view is registered by John "TotalBiscuit" Bain, and is the most watched video on the subject on YouTube (20+ min)
Now lets look at an example that applies directly to us here at Seibertron.com. Imagine one of our fellow Seibertronians posts a video clip here on our message board of a step-by-step review of a brand new figure. Playing in the background behind the voice-over is "The Touch" by Stan Bush. The studio representing Stan Bush could issue a complaint, without being required to notify us or request a take-down. Seibertron.com would be liable and prosecuted solely on a good faith assertion of the copyright owner, without notification, with the site operators subject to possible jail time for not preventing the video from being posted. In short order, the http://www.seibertron.com/ domain in the United States would no longer resolve to our servers and visitors attempting to come to Seibertron.com would be redirected to a “This site under review for piracy/copyright violations” page. Now apply the same principle to the character designs and their likenesses used in your avatars and sigs, the Heavy Metal War altmodes, TransTopia figure photographs, Mosiac comics and more.
To conform to these new restrictions would mean that Seibertron.com would have to switch to a review/approval process for any and all new posts to our forums and articles. Our community team would have to approve every single news comment, every new thread, and every new response before it went live and filter them for potentially infringing material. Even so, we would still possibly be under threat from violations not caught – a user recolouring an image from a Marvel/DW/IDW comic as an example or a snippet of Transformers news from another website in excess of a certain summary threshold. That’s just here on Seibertron. The effect on sites like YouTube, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit and the rest of the internet would be devastating, and these popular sites would simply disappear.
The intent of the legislation is to stop piracy, which isn’t affected in the least by this approach. Unfortunately the legislation in the House and Senate has a wide margin of bi-partisan support and looks likely to pass after the holidays. Believe it or not, your Congress representatives do count the number of calls and emails they get on a particular issue, and most of the time only the people in their jurisdiction (read- you) can sway their opinion on something – so your action on this is important.
The Center for Democracy and Technology have released this .pdf as a guide to the key points of contention within this bill. We ask that as many of you as possible read this and then contact your representatives and tell them you oppose the PROTECT IP Act in the Senate and the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) in the House. This act wont stop itself, the internet needs people to take action if it is to remain the free global resource it is today. If you wish to know more about this issue, it is recommended that you visit the Protect Innovation project where you can go into more depth on the issue and download a 'briefing kit' that contains, in detail, the opposition to this bill. Please also be sure to hit the Share buttons at the top of your page to tell your friends about this on Facebook, Google+ and Twitter... whilst you still can.
Here are some links to websites actively actively engaging poeple to help stop SOPA:
The problem is, that whilst the most relevant issue to us is discussed, there are many others that probably need to be addressed in the conversation such as this, Newgrounds explaining in more direct language how DCMA Blacklisting will work, sharing the public copy of the letter to the Senate and House from AOL, eBay, Facebook, Google, LinkedIn, Mozilla, Twitter, Yahoo! and Zynga outlining their concerns and opposition to this bill and maybe even 25 things you need to know about SOPA?
We cannot stop the pressure even if this is true though. The Senate equivalent, PIPA, is still out there and just becuase we have postponed one form of crazy does not mean we should sit back and let another take it's place. We also can be certain that SOPA will be back in one form or another eventually.
Stll work to do.
From my perspective,This all started & spiraled out of control because the muic business is losing the most money. due to how super easy it becomes with every passing day. for anyone to download music off of the internet & record it on to a blank DVD/CD.
IMO,It just seems like the movies people tagged along & are ridding along with the music people on this sopa & pipa bills. Because it's much harder to get DVD liscensed movies with all that crystal clear-ness. most people prefer to buy,rent or watch the movies/show on TV.
IMO,Ever since the DVD player replaced the VHS player. The average person simply doesn't know how to figure out how to record movies from TV on to a recordable DVD player. it was leaps & bounds easier to record Movies/show using a VHS player. I was recording TF cartoons on my VHS player when I was seven years old.
Personally,this pipa & sopa Bills make zero sense. because most have cable that offer TIVO/Something named differently. Most Tivo's/similar named things offer users the ability to record the movie/show/music & save it,to watch it whenever they feel like it. on my cable provider,their is literally over 50 channels that just play music with no videos of people dancing in the back ground. you can save them to Tivo/whatever,then record the programs/music on to blank DVD's/CD's. SO WILL THIS BILL TRY TO GET RID OF TIVO/SIMILAR NAMED THINGS??????
point is,you can't stop technology,it's pointless from even trying to put up road blocks.
Their is no doubt, if Sopa & PIPA bills get passed. then it will be the end of the super highway information internet as we know it. I like it when TF sites report the news,show pics & provide forums to discuss the topics. having the goverment watch over your shoulder,censor stuff & try to sue you,just steals all the joy away from the internet.
IMO,I'm kina surprissed hardly anyone cares about putting a end to ebay. as ebay allows sellers to post auctions with used toys THAT COULD BE A HAZARD TO THE BUYER. as the toy isn't new,it might have dust that's harmful to the lungs. people might have been sick when they played with the toys,thus the toys are infected with germs. rust,broken parts,color fading are all hazards. NO,I'M NOT AGAINST EBAY,I LOVE EBAY. I'm just pointing out a example.
Motto:"This post clearly was meant to offend, and if you are affected by it in any way please close your browser and discuss it with someone who knows not to take the internet seriously."
It's cheesy and it's cliche, but it's our cheesy cliche, and it's also true. I decided at work to whip this up and post it before the blackout. To paraphrase: read it, know it, live it.
We may have freedom to view what we want, but artists/authors/creators or loved ones thereof have just as much freedom to charge us for viewing. That's not support of SOPA/PIPA by any means, I just find certain posts here and elsewhere... disagreeable.
Motto:"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Noideaforaname wrote:We may have freedom to view what we want, but artists/authors/creators or loved ones thereof have just as much freedom to charge us for viewing. That's not support of SOPA/PIPA by any means, I just find certain posts here and elsewhere... disagreeable.
No, you're right. Yes, politicians who know jack-all and music and movie companies are to blame for this one, but do you think they'd be doing it if pirates weren't giving them a reason to?
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Motto:"This post clearly was meant to offend, and if you are affected by it in any way please close your browser and discuss it with someone who knows not to take the internet seriously."
Weapon: Black Magic
I agree that if there was no piracy these sorts of measures wouldn't even be considered but bills like this created by people who have either have no clue how the internet works or don't care and just want to protect thier income are nothing short of a step backwards. I support anti-piracy measures that target the pirate itself, but will oppose any that unfairly criminalises the site owners, especially when it assumes authority over non-native (foreign) websites.
This is why PIPA, SOPA (and now ACTA) have to be stopped through positive action.
“I like to think that my arrogance, impetuosity, impatience, selfishness and greed are the qualities that make me the lovable chap I am.”
The irony in this is that, without pirating the gaming industry wouldn't be as huge as it is now. Computer games where almost dead during the end of the 80s, many companies and games have become huge and well known due to all the pirate copies being passed around at schools getting people interested an more likely to buy future instalments. At least that's how it worked over here.
Also music wise, remember the "pirate" radio stations who illegally broadcasted rock and other "underground" music, or all the pirated recordings that where passed around making bands and genres famous and household names. If it weren't for youtube having illegal music videos, I would never have found Disturbed (just recently bought the final Album, completing my collection), Alestorm (ordered both current albums, waiting on the next), or Iced Age (waiting till I've completed Alestorm, then I'll collect the living f**k out of this). I wouldn't have known and gotten a taste for Metalocalypse, which again, I own all seasons on DVD and I've got the comics, nor Afro Samuray, BR set waiting for me at my comic store.
Same goes for comics, I was "given" digital copies of the first 3 issues of Haunt and a couple of Hack/Slash, guess what I did while reading those scans? I rang up my comic store ordering a subscription and any back issues they could get. Guess what I did when the HC of Haunt, collecting the first 12 issues, was announced? I bought that without even thinking, although I had everything in that book, well save for the exclusive but seriously unspectacular bonus content.
I think I've spent more money on stuff since I've learned of all these "evil" tools.
Also, I would like to point out that the only time the trailer to Transformers the movie (2007) was shown on German TV was on a TV segment showing the top watched youtube videos of the past week. THAT was Paramounts advertisement campaign, hope a TV station would show a low quality pirated trailer of their movie.
But I agree, there are a lot who abuse these things.
Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie? Intah-wib-buls?
Blurrz wrote:10/10
Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
Noideaforaname wrote:We may have freedom to view what we want, but artists/authors/creators or loved ones thereof have just as much freedom to charge us for viewing. That's not support of SOPA/PIPA by any means, I just find certain posts here and elsewhere... disagreeable.
As an artistic individual, I agree. I wholeheartedly supported Metallica in their early efforts against Napster. They weren't fighting just for their cut. They were fighting for the next Metallica who wouldn't be able to make a living making music if people kept taking their creations for free. But we can't throw out the baby with the bath water. Attack the pirate, not the site or the site's staff without warning.
Motto:"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Dead Metal wrote:But I agree, there are a lot who abuse these things.
And those are the people causing the problems. Not everyone uses it as "try before you buy" (And many people who do use that excuse don't mean it), most people use it to get free things, just not wanting to pay.
As for Napster, the original idea was to cut out the middleman between artist and audience. And that, as we all know, was twisted into the piracy service it became much more popularly known as.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
I'll be honest, I do do a bit of emulating...but it's mainly for the good pokemon/mega man hacks out there, and I own/bought all of the base games anyway (all main pokemon games, own mega man/x/zero collection, both zx games, mega man 1-4 for wiiware, mega man zero 1-4...I've bought two copies of emerald for ****'s sake, and technically two copies of mega man 1-4 and all mega man zero games) Piracy is a problem, and definitely some people simply pirate the games and never buy them/didn't own them already, but these bills are certainly not the solution. Something needs to be done, obvs, but these bills will just make things even worse.
Motto:"This post clearly was meant to offend, and if you are affected by it in any way please close your browser and discuss it with someone who knows not to take the internet seriously."
Weapon: Black Magic
Napster was the victim of its own success. Whilst I'm not 100% sure I agree that Metallica specifically did the right thing, it's blasé attitude contributed heavily to its own downfall.
Shadowman wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:But I agree, there are a lot who abuse these things.
And those are the people causing the problems. Not everyone uses it as "try before you buy" (And many people who do use that excuse don't mean it), most people use it to get free things, just not wanting to pay.
I wont lie, I know many people who have downloaded stuff they shouldn't for various reasons.
Some do it because they want to try something new, which you could argue isn't much different to reading a book in a shop before you buy it or watching a DVD on on a store screen, and they ultimately end up becoming a customer as a result.
Some do it because a film or a TV show they want to see isn't available in their region at the time so they have no legitimate access to it, and these (in my experience) almost always become consumers of the film/show when it is broadcast locally and purchasers when the DVD's come out. Lost and TruBlood were classic examples of this in the UK.
And then there are those who download simply because they can. These are the people who would have just stolen the DVD from the store eventually anyway so you could argue that the 'lost revenue' is irrelevant as the potential for custom never existed in the first place - the pirate was always going to get it for 'free', on bootleg DVD from a guy in a pub for example.
Whilst I'm far from being a supporter of multi-million dollar studios crushing the life out of the little guy, these are the pirates that should be addressed and stopped, actions I would support. There is no way to ever be 100% sure of someone's intentions when they take a copy of something and, until the law reflects that, then the lawmakers being funded by the big studios and attempting to act indiscriminately against the innocent will continue to find the internet resisting their efforts.
“I like to think that my arrogance, impetuosity, impatience, selfishness and greed are the qualities that make me the lovable chap I am.”
Dead Metal wrote:But I agree, there are a lot who abuse these things.
And those are the people causing the problems. Not everyone uses it as "try before you buy" (And many people who do use that excuse don't mean it), most people use it to get free things, just not wanting to pay.
As for Napster, the original idea was to cut out the middleman between artist and audience. And that, as we all know, was twisted into the piracy service it became much more popularly known as.
Napster was simply the best, most publicized example I could think of. I agree that they started out with a good plan which was then hijacked by people who want something for nothing, as most people do. Whenever I hear someone talk about people being intrinsically good and honest I want to slap him. I had an argument with someone at a BotCon about this - and my own best friend defended this guy's views. He said he didn't need to pay "no record company" to hear what was already free. I said just because you hear something for free on broadcast radio doesn't mean it's completely free. The station paid the music company for that single, the company paid the artist for the song, the advertisers paid the station to be able to buy the music, and - if you bought their product - you paid the advertiser. It wasn't free. The response was: so what? Quit telling me what to do. It's my f***ing life and I'll take what I want. Now, does Congress or any EU government seriously think they can win against that mindset? Legislators never understand that the people already breaking the existing laws will continue to find ways around new laws to get what they want. Sharpen up the language to zero in on these jerks and put some of the burden on media companies to better protect and/or encrypt their own products, and then I'll support the bills.
Motto:"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
It's a zero-sum game. Penny Arcade did a comic on it, about how DRM is an arms race between developers and publishers who want to make money off of their work, and the pirates who think they should get it for free, with the honest customers cause in the crossfire. Current DRM measures aren't working, and even worse, they often give pirates another excuse. (I'll pirate it so I don't have to put up with SecuROM!)
Yes, SOPA are PIPA are the worst possible way to end the war, but it's an end coming from people who are at the end of their rope trying to solve this problem.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Motto:"This post clearly was meant to offend, and if you are affected by it in any way please close your browser and discuss it with someone who knows not to take the internet seriously."
Shadowman wrote:but it's an end coming from people who are at the end of their rope trying to solve this problem.
Why is this our problem?
The burden of proof has always been on the accuser, that's the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' which I'm pretty sure the American justice system is based on still. This bill goes against that, which is a yet another key point in why it should be stopped. They need to find better laws between them that don't harm the innovation and entrepreneurship of the internet.
This also made me chuckle just now.
Reddit Founder Alexis Ohanian on CNBC wrote:Why is it that when Republicans and Democrats need to solve the budget and the deficit, there's deadlock, but when Hollywood lobbyists pay them $94 million dollars to write legislation, people from both sides of the aisle line up to co-sponsor it?
“I like to think that my arrogance, impetuosity, impatience, selfishness and greed are the qualities that make me the lovable chap I am.”
Well, somewhat good news, Fox News just brought up the blackout like a minute or so ago on TV. Looks like this might be getting the public spotlight that we've been wanting (of course they'll probably just trash it as pirates being opposed, but it's certainly a start for national coverage, anyway)
Motto:"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Psychout wrote:
Shadowman wrote:but it's an end coming from people who are at the end of their rope trying to solve this problem.
Why is this our problem as consumers?
I'm not saying it's a good idea. I am saying that all the ideas they've run through in the past decade not only failed, but was then harshly criticized. And no one is willing to help. Seriously, how many anti-piracy measures have you all suggested? And suggesting "Better encryption" doesn't count. (If it's encrypted, it can be decrypted)
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Motto:"This post clearly was meant to offend, and if you are affected by it in any way please close your browser and discuss it with someone who knows not to take the internet seriously."
Weapon: Black Magic
Shadowman wrote:
Psychout wrote:
Shadowman wrote:but it's an end coming from people who are at the end of their rope trying to solve this problem.
Why is this our problem [as consumers?]
I'm not saying it's a good idea. I am saying that all the ideas they've run through in the past decade not only failed, but was then harshly criticized. And no one is willing to help. Seriously, how many anti-piracy measures have you all suggested? And suggesting "Better encryption" doesn't count. (If it's encrypted, it can be decrypted)
None, and nor do I plan to. I'm not a lawyer, I am a consumer.
If their ideas keep getting slated then maybe it's time for them to actually listen to those that know what they are talking about as opposed to those with the $94 million.
“I like to think that my arrogance, impetuosity, impatience, selfishness and greed are the qualities that make me the lovable chap I am.”
Motto:"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Psychout wrote:None, and nor do I plan to. I'm not a lawyer, I am a consumer.
If their ideas keep getting slated then maybe it's time for them to actually listen to those that know what they are talking about as opposed to those with the $94 million.
See, that's not helping. Telling someone they're doing it wrong only helps if you tell them how to do it right. Otherwise they're going to keep cycling through more and more bad ideas and we're just going to keep suffering. You don't need to be a lawyer to have good ideas and correct other people's mistakes.
So here's a thought: How about instead of just complaining every time a new DRM measure is taken, we think up something better? Otherwise we're not really doing anything at all.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Motto:"This post clearly was meant to offend, and if you are affected by it in any way please close your browser and discuss it with someone who knows not to take the internet seriously."
Psychout wrote:None, and nor do I plan to. I'm not a lawyer, I am a consumer.
If their ideas keep getting slated then maybe it's time for them to actually listen to those that know what they are talking about as opposed to those with the $94 million.
See, that's not helping. Telling someone they're doing it wrong only helps if you tell them how to do it right. Otherwise they're going to keep cycling through more and more bad ideas and we're just going to keep suffering. You don't need to be a lawyer to have good ideas and correct other people's mistakes.
So here's a thought: How about instead of just complaining every time a new DRM measure is taken, we think up something better? Otherwise we're not really doing anything at all.
Here's another thought, how about you watch the link I dropped with the quote from Alexis Ohanian where he makes a great suggestion citing Netflix as an example?
I was hoping you'd pick up on it; there are better suggestions being made all the time, what they lack is $94 million to make them worth listening to by the people that count.
Last edited by Psychout on Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Completing links
“I like to think that my arrogance, impetuosity, impatience, selfishness and greed are the qualities that make me the lovable chap I am.”
Sort of ironic that when I went to contact my representative the other day he had a very prominent "Follow me on Twitter and Facebook!" logo present. I reminded him that if he would like to continue to have a Facebook to follow him on, that this legislation needs killed or heavily amended.
Anyhow, I cannot and do not support SOPA and PIPA just because Piracy (while it does exist) simply isn't important to my daily life. I buy no first run movies, instead I use Netflix. I listen to little to no music. Mostly in the car as background noise. I download nothing.
However, with these bills threatening to screw with my everyday online life of watching youtube, posting on facebook, coming here, or following the latest spy shots of the newest autos coming to market - this has resonated with me and inflamed my anger and incited my fears. I simply feel it's going to be the first footstep into another form of societal control. How do we know they won't be able to take these bills to a massive extreme and next decide what is appropriate for us to view, copyrights not withstanding. When will the anti-porn crowd seize the opportunity to block more sites in the name of appropriate content? When will the time come that simply posting on and speaking out against the government on a site will fall under the spectrum of some broad reaching and quasi-legal division of the government who will have the power to block those sites and then your name lands on some conspirator list? When will it not be allowed to search Google or other sites without the government wanting to see what we're all doing? Oh wait, this one has already happened with the government attempting to force search sites to hand over user search records without any legal authority to do so.
These laws will inevitably lead to more abuse of power then any good in the name of stopping piracy. Mark these words that no good will come from the example set by these. It will only lead to more extreme measures and more people lobbying and inflicting their will and rationale on the rest of us. Think about Prohibition and all the good that accomplished. The rise in organized crime that came about from telling the average person what they could not do because someone lobbied their morale and spiritual views on everyone else. How the average person found ways of doing that anyway from the most disreputable underground organizations. Have we learned nothing?
Motto:"This post clearly was meant to offend, and if you are affected by it in any way please close your browser and discuss it with someone who knows not to take the internet seriously."
Weapon: Black Magic
Pontimax 01 wrote:Sort of ironic that when I went to contact my representative the other day he had a very prominent "Follow me on Twitter and Facebook!" logo present. I reminded him that if he would like to continue to have a Facebook to follow him on, that this legislation needs killed or heavily amended.
Good chap, I only hope you are one of many, many, people contacting him that day, and every other day, until these bills are killed off for good.
“I like to think that my arrogance, impetuosity, impatience, selfishness and greed are the qualities that make me the lovable chap I am.”
Motto:"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
SirSoundwaveIV wrote:Well, somewhat good news, Fox News just brought up the blackout like a minute or so ago on TV. Looks like this might be getting the public spotlight that we've been wanting (of course they'll probably just trash it as pirates being opposed, but it's certainly a start for national coverage, anyway)
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