Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

by **Zombie Starscream** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:19 pm

In that Episode "Autobot Spike," what were they transferring into the Transformer body, was it Spike's mind or was it his soul?

And if his soul is in the new body, does it then become a spark?

If he dies while in his new body, does his soul join the Matrix?

If a Tf got transferred into a human body and then dies for some reason, does its spark still join the Matrix?

News Credits: 2 · by **Tekka** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:12 pm

As far as I'm concerned they're one and the same. I also don't go for this returning to the matrix nonsense. If they DO return to the matrix when they die it's probably only a gateway to another kind of generic heaven. What would happen if someone decided to smash the matrix into oblivion? Or if the Prime of the day decides to unleash the power of the matrix and it becomes empty again ala the Return of Optimus Prime? Those souls wouldn't be throw-away energy surely, it would be a very pitiful afterlife it that were the case.

I would prefer to think of the human and transformer souls as interchangeable, and when the body dies they all go to the same place, just that everyone has a different word to describe it.

News Credits: 5 · by **Sledge** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:19 am

As was pointed out in a similar thread, G1 TFs don't have sparks. And as no one can scientifically prove the existance of the soul, what got transferred was Spike's mind.

News Credits: 1 · by **Jeysie** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:20 am

The matter of sparks always reminded me a little of the Minbari's beliefs on Babylon 5: They believe that the universe is sentient, and that part of its sentience is invested into each individual being's soul. Whenever a being dies, all of its collective memories and feelings are "absorbed" into the collective soul, and then split and reborn; in this manner the universe searches for meaning and attempts to understand itself.

In that sense, souls are one and the same; they're just born into different bodies to gain different perspectives.

I agree that perhaps the Matrix is just a way of concentrating all the soul energies into one place, and when the Matrix is "used", those energies are dispersed.

...though admittedly I prefer to take the more scientific bent and leave sparks out of it. One could argue that Spike's memories/personality neural pathways were simply recreated into the Autobot body in the hope that they'd survive the operation undamaged (yep, that sure worked). Conversely, Transformers personalities/memories are just sophisticated programs, and can be "downloaded" into the database of the Matrix to preserve their data.

by **NightFall** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:00 pm

Those are really deep questions. I liked Jeysie's idea.
I always wondered where would the "sparks" would go if they're wasn't one heaven or matrix. As for the Decepticons, they had sparks too, but no matrix, so are they reborned ever, so just disappear to surrounding energry? I was always wondered.

by **The Chopnel** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:14 am

Jeysie wrote:The matter of sparks always reminded me a little of the Minbari's beliefs on Babylon 5: They believe that the universe is sentient, and that part of its sentience is invested into each individual being's soul. Whenever a being dies, all of its collective memories and feelings are "absorbed" into the collective soul, and then split and reborn; in this manner the universe searches for meaning and attempts to understand itself.

I've never seen Babylon 5, so I don't know how similar those Minbari beliefs are with TFs sparks, but what I find interesting is that as far as I know, Larry DiTillio worked on both BW and Babylon 5.

I wonder if that similarity is coincidence, or if the guy borrowed some ideas from one show to another. :-?

News Credits: 1 · by **Jeysie** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:10 am

The Chopnel wrote:I've never seen Babylon 5, so I don't know how similar those Minbari beliefs are with TFs sparks, but what I find interesting is that as far as I know, Larry DiTillio worked on both BW and Babylon 5.

I wonder if that similarity is coincidence, or if the guy borrowed some ideas from one show to another.

Huh. You know, you're right, I never realized he was story editor for both shows. Could be, could be.

Side note: You really should get your hands on some Babylon 5 DVDs, it's an awesome show.

In any case, a snippet taken from this webpage:

The Minbari do not believe in deities. The core of Minbari religious belief is that of the soul. A soul is defined by them as a non-localized phenomenon, meaning that a person's soul does not originate from within, but from the outside by a hidden source (the universe). To them, the universe is a conscious entity engaged in a search for meaning. It breaks itself apart and invests itself in every form of life. Thus, every being is a projection of a part of the universal soul. They believe that all sentients have immortal souls.

However, there is more than one "universal soul" since breaking itself apart and only meeting identical versions of itself would be pointless and redundant. There are Soul Forms, one for each race. The soul form in Minbari differ from those in Drazi, Centauri, and Humans. Having been civilized longer than most races, the Minbari hold their soul form to be more elevated, evolved, and precious than those around them.

When a Minbari dies, his soul merges with the souls of other dead Minbari. These souls form a "pool" from which new Minbari are formed. As an individual advances the state of his soul, he is also advancing the Minbari race, since the next Minbari to receive that soul will have a more advanced one. To remove a soul from this "pool" would be to diminish the whole race of Minbari.

Maybe it's just my newbie perspective, but it's the first thing I thought of when I learned about the TF idea of the Matrix/Allspark.

by **Giga Prime** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:23 am

I prefer to think that it was Spike's mind that was merely copied and placed into the robot. Now granted, the human mind would need hard drive space of who knows how much, but the Autobots are cybernetic beings themselves and their own minds and personalities are on processors or the Cybertron equivalent. I think they could do it.
As for the Matrix, I think it's only a conduit to Primus' power and if the Matrix no longer existed then sparks would simply return to Primus directly.

News Credits: 5 · by **Sledge** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:31 am

I agree with you, right up until you start talking about Primus. Sorry, but no such character.

by **Lycantendencies** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:36 pm

Giga Prime wrote:As for the Matrix, I think it's only a conduit to Primus' power and if the Matrix no longer existed then sparks would simply return to Primus directly.

Primus was comic only and in that, the Matrix was not a conduit, rather it was a remnant.

News Credits: 2 · by **Insurgent** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:19 am

I would say it was just his mind, since they say they are transferring his mind to Autobot X in the episode.

The Matrix they join is not the Matrix that is carried by Primes, but rather something in another dimensional plane that all Sparks go to once they have been extinguished in this dimension. The thing Rhinox went to in Coming of the Fuzors when he went to find Primal's Spark. The Matrix that is carried by Primes is just a gateway, a method for them to mentaly contact teh sparks of those deceased and all tf's join the matrix, regardless of faction. For faction is a matter of choices, beliefs, much like religion is. Or believing in scientific facts.

Incidently, I believe the same is true for our afterlife. Our spirits, ghosts move on to another dimension.

by **The Chopnel** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:07 pm

Sledge wrote:I agree with you, right up until you start talking about Primus. Sorry, but no such character.

This is now completely unofficial, pure 100% my self-created idea, but I once created an explanation for "Primus", which could work in cartoon universe too.

Basically, it goes something like this: "Primus" was a name of the star Cybertron once orbited. Transformers used to collect that solar energy to energize their homeworld. Then the planet got thrown off orbit for whatever reason, maybe the star exploded, or maybe the war did it. Then, after quite long time, the TFs had forgotten about the star, but the name "Primus" lived on as a mythical god who gave them life.

So, it wouldn't contradict the quint origin, and would just make "Primus the god" as a myth. Basically, cybertronian version of "sun god".

this is in no way anything to be taken too seriously, just something I thought up for fun.

News Credits: 2 · by **Insurgent** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:27 am

The Chopnel wrote:
Sledge wrote:I agree with you, right up until you start talking about Primus. Sorry, but no such character.

This is now completely unofficial, pure 100% my self-created idea, but I once created an explanation for "Primus", which could work in cartoon universe too.

Basically, it goes something like this: "Primus" was a name of the star Cybertron once orbited. Transformers used to collect that solar energy to energize their homeworld. Then the planet got thrown off orbit for whatever reason, maybe the star exploded, or maybe the war did it. Then, after quite long time, the TFs had forgotten about the star, but the name "Primus" lived on as a mythical god who gave them life.

So, it wouldn't contradict the quint origin, and would just make "Primus the god" as a myth. Basically, cybertronian version of "sun god".

this is in no way anything to be taken too seriously, just something I thought up for fun.

I quite like that theory. Never considered something like that before.