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The Star Wars Thread

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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Rodimus Prime » Sun May 08, 2022 9:44 am

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I would love to see either a prequel movie or series about Palpatine.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Rodimus Prime » Sun May 08, 2022 10:40 pm

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
An interesting read from Gript. It's a few years old, but I just found it and it certainly made me think:

John McGuirk wrote:EMPEROR PALPATINE IS THE TRUE HERO OF “STAR WARS”
With the release of “The Rise of Skywalker”, last weekend, there have now been nine “Star Wars” movies. And with the saga coming to an end, without delivering any spoilers for the latest and last film, we can now say one thing, definitively: Palpatine, Darth Sidious, Emperor of the Galaxy, was the good guy, all along, and the Jedi were the villains.

This is a controversial statement. After all, the premise of the movies is that a plucky, underdog, rebellion is fighting for liberty from an oppressive, brutal, and unabashedly evil Empire. The bad guys dress in black, and say things like “let the hate flow through you”, and shoot lightning from their fingertips. The Jedi talk of peace, and oneness with the force, and fighting for democracy. To the casual viewer, Star Wars is very simple. But the casual viewer is entirely wrong.

For the purpose of this argument, we will consider the films not in the order that they were released, but in the order that they are supposed to be viewed, starting with “The Phantom Menace”, and working our way through to “The Rise of Skywalker”, since that’s the only logical way to examine the political history of the Galaxy. We’re going to look at all Palpatine’s alleged atrocities – from starting a civil war, to exterminating the Jedi, to Alderaan, and put them in their proper context. But first, let’s start at the beginning.



THE GALACTIC REPUBLIC WAS AN ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE GOVERNMENT
The very first act of Star Wars opens with news that the Galactic Republic is in trouble. A weak Senate is no longer capable of maintaining order throughout the Galaxy, and various factions are resorting to extra-political means to achieve their ends. The Trade Federation has blockaded the peaceful planet of Naboo, attempting to win political leverage by starving a planet full of innocent people.

The Jedi order, the alleged peacekeepers of the Galaxy, and servants of the senate, have despatched what amounts to a fact-finding mission. They have been sent not to end the blockade, but to “negotiate” with the Trade Federation. What, exactly, is there to negotiate? We are never told, but the very act of negotiating with people using the starvation of millions as a political tool suggests a Galactic Republic that is weak, ineffective, and lacking any moral compass.

The Senator from Naboo, Palpatine, is rightly and justly infuriated by this. “The bureaucrats are in charge”, he tells Queen Padme of Naboo – and he is proven correct. Chancellor Valorum refuses to act, and in a final act of frustration, the Senate votes no-confidence in him, choosing instead a new, strong, Chancellor – Palpatine himself – to bring peace and order to the Republic.

Palpatine recognises immediately that some truths are politically unpalatable. The Republic itself is defenceless, aside from the Jedi Order. Meanwhile, those inside the Republic who wish to dominate it are armed to the teeth, and have no difficulty in using those arms – as demonstrated at Naboo – to push their own agendas. Much like the late Roman Republic here on earth, the Senate is no more a legislative body than it is a collection of factions with their own private armies, more a forum for threats and obstruction than for actual legislating. Here we come to Palpatine’s first alleged atrocity – because, and let’s be clear about this, he deliberately starts a civil war.



THE CIVIL WAR WAS NECESSARY
We know that Palpatine starts the war because we see him, in his guise as Darth Sidious, encouraging the rebel factions to become separatists, to arm themselves, and to take military action against the Republic. At the same time, and in secret, Palpatine has built an immensely powerful “Grand Army of the Republic”, knowing that it would be called upon one day to crush the enemies of peace and order.

The classic analysis of this manoeuvre is that Palpatine is evil, promoting and provoking a war, and playing both sides against each other to entrench his own power, but this is completely mistaken. What Palpatine does is classic espionage. He knows that a conflict must come, and so he works very hard to ensure that when it does come, it comes on his terms, and to his, and the Republic’s, advantage. He inserts loyal agents right at the top of the Separatist cause, like Count Dooku, and ensures that the Separatists, while believing that they were fighting against Palpatine, were actually dancing to his tune.

Is his method bloody? Yes. But it is also the only method open to him. As we see in Episode One, the peace that the clone wars supplanted was no true peace at all, for people like the citizens of Naboo. It was absolutely, indisputably essential that the Trade Federation and its allies were defeated. Nobody – not even the most avid Jedi supporter – disputes this. In fact, the Jedi council was not only in favour of the war against the separatists, it actively took part in it. You cannot argue for the virtue of the Jedi on one hand, and against the Clone Wars on another, when the Jedi themselves believed the Clone Wars to be just and necessary.

What Palpatine does, simply, is to ensure that those wars are fought in a way most advantageous to the Republic. His strong leadership, and the unity of purpose he provides, lead to him being re-elected, off screen, for several terms. When we see him, throughout episode two, he is a popular, genial, and well-liked figure. There is no “tyranny” in the republic under his leadership.



THE JEDI WERE, AND ARE, SECTARIAN EXTREMIST TYRANTS
The only true attempt at tyranny in the series, in fact, comes in Episode 3, the so-called “Revenge of the Sith”. It is in this episode that Palpatine commits what is universally perceived to be one of his two worst actions – the destruction of the Jedi order. But this was not an act of tyranny – it was, in fact, a strike against tyranny, and a blow for freedom. Because the Jedi are not, and never were, the good guys.

The Jedi order are sectarian religious extremists. They take children from their mothers before the age of five, and spend a lifetime indoctrinating them in the ways of their order. No wives or husbands. No friends. “Let go”, as Yoda says to Anakin Skywalker “of all that you fear to lose”. He says that, incidentally, about Anakin’s beloved Padme, when Anakin fears her death. Yoda’s answer to him amounts to “you should not care if she dies, because she is holding you back”. And these are the good guys?

What’s more, the Jedi are explicitly, horribly, sectarian. Remember if you will that the decision they take to launch a coup d’état against Palpatine is not based on his actions as Chancellor. They do not try to remove him because he has remained in office too long, though that is mentioned in passing as a justification, or because they disagree with his military policy, or because of human rights concerns, or anything else. Their sole, and only reason for removing him from office is that they discover that he practices a different religion to the one that they practice. “He is a Sith”, they say, “so he must go”. The Jedi have more in common with Oliver Cromwell than they do with Buddhist monks.

And what is Palpatine to do, having survived an attempted assassination, thanks to the love and patriotism of a single Jedi, the aforementioned Mr. Skywalker? His enemies have attempted a Coup D’état, and literally tried to take over the Republic by force of arms. He is faced with a situation where the Coup on Coruscant has failed, but where Jedi Knights are scattered throughout the Galaxy, almost all of them in command of a division of troops. Left unchecked, these Jedi Generals would undoubtedly have led their victorious armies back to Coruscant and used them to depose the legitimate Government of the Republic.

Here, once again, we see the breadth of Palpatine’s vision, for he had anticipated this possibility, and like any good leader, hedged against risk. He was able immediately to communicate with loyal officers in the Grand Army, and in one, clean, swift, strike, to depose the disloyal generals, preventing a second Civil War. In a single stroke, Palpatine decapitates enemies internal, and external. He despatches the newly ennobled Lord Vader to Mustafar to finally deal with the rebellion, and he cements the Government on Coruscant, by instituting constitutional reforms and declaring an Empire.

And what of that act, the abolition of democracy itself? In truth, it is the one black mark against Palpatine, for it was unnecessary, and uncharacteristically grandiose. He should have learned here from Augustus, who never declared himself Emperor, and maintained, at least in name, the democracy of the Roman Republic. But Palpatine and Augustus have far more in common than what separates them.



THE PAX PALPATINA
When Augustus defeated Mark Anthony and Cleopatra, he began a hundred years that are now known to history as the Pax Augusta – the peace of Augustus. Stability and order were restored to the Empire, and provincial governors were appointed who were loyal to one man.

It is no coincidence, none at all, that the longest gap between Star Wars films is the gap between Episode III and Episode IV. Some twenty years pass in which there is basically no fighting at all. The Pax Palpatina, to coin a term. Across nine films, only one man ever achieves a period of peace and order of this length – the Emperor himself.

All that we hear of Palpatine in Episode IV is that he has finally completed his reforms of the constitution, abolishing the ineffective Senate altogether and instituting a system of regional government, headed by men and women who have taken an oath to uphold the Emperor’s peace. It is appropriate here to focus on the great crime of one of them – Wilhuff Tarkin.





ALDERAAN
Tarkin’s decision – and it is Tarkin’s alone – to destroy the planet of Alderaan is the single greatest crime committed in the Star Wars films. It is notable that it is not done on the orders of either the Emperor, or Lord Vader, the latter of whom was present when it happened. This is not to excuse Palpatine for it, because Tarkin clearly felt he could get away with it, but it is worth noting that it was done on his own initiative.

Equally though, let us not forget that Alderaan’s leaders were in open rebellion against the Emperor. Senator Bail Organa is last seen at the end of Episode III, already commencing a plot to take down Palpatine and restore the feckless democracy that had caused all the problems to begin with. His daughter, a Princess of Alderaan, is a high-level rebel activist, overtly plotting the destruction of imperial military bases. Indeed, very few of those who condemn Alderaan ever pause to note that the Government of Alderaan was overtly plotting – we see them do it in the film – the destruction of the Death Star, which itself would have cost millions of lives. Alderaan was a pre-emptive strike. Was it disproportionate? Yes. But consider also the fact that we are only presented with one side of the story. “We don’t have weapons”, pleads Princess Leia. But every word she has said to Grand Moff Tarkin up to that point is a lie. We are expected to sympathise with her, because her lies are in a good cause, but why should we believe that Alderaan was defenceless and had no weapons, when its government was plotting the downfall of the Empire itself? We’re being asked to believe something with no evidence, when there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Alderaan was actually a threat.



PALPATINE THE DIPLOMAT
Palpatine’s instinct, learned through many years of persecution by the Jedi order, is to eliminate Luke Skywalker. He has, after all, no good reason to let Skywalker live. The man is a rebel, and a threat. Palpatine himself says to Lord Vader that “he could destroy us”.

If Palpatine were the bloodthirsty monster he is portrayed as, he would have ordered Luke’s death and not given it a second thought – but that’s not his way. It’s here that we see the true reasonableness of the man.

“If he could be turned”, Lord Vader suggests, “he would be a powerful ally”. And so Palpatine, far from the dictator he is portrayed as, goes along with his friend’s suggestion and devotes himself completely to a diplomatic offensive to persuade Skywalker of the benefits of the Empire. This proves to be his greatest error, but it is an error for which he should be given credit.

In fact, it’s notable that in Palpatine’s career, every time he behaves reasonably, he is betrayed. His faith in the Jedi leads to a coup. His initial faith in democracy leads to Valorum’s decadence. His faith in negotiation with Skywalker leads to his own death.



CHAOS
The true proof of Palpatine’s goodness, as in so many great people, comes not while he lives, but after he is deposed.

When Palpatine is finally betrayed by Lord Vader in the orbit of Endor (proving, incidentally, that no Jedi can be trusted) we see celebrations break out across the Galaxy. The so-called tyrant is gone, liberty and democracy is back, and a new era can begin.

So, how did that work out, exactly?

We know from episodes 7 through 9 that the new Republic made exactly the same mistakes as the old Republic. Within a very short time, the new Government is besieged on all sides. The attempt to restore the Jedi order fails, because some pupils realise that Palpatine had been correct all along. A small group of former imperial officers recognise the longing of the people for order, and challenge the new regime.

Princess Leia is a good rebel, but she is hapless when it comes to governing a galaxy. In the end, all that Palpatine’s defeat achieves is utter chaos, and misery.



THE TRUE HERO
The true hero is not the person who is the best looking, or who has the flashiest moves with a light sabre, or they guy who gets the girl. The true hero is the person who works day and night so that their fellow citizens can live their lives without worrying about conflicts or disasters. Palpatine was not a perfect man, but he was, indisputably, a truly great man.

The Star Wars films are not actually about attempts to depose an evil Tyrant, though that is how they are presented. They are in fact about one mans struggle to keep the peace in a Galaxy full of children who think that liberty is the only value that matters. Time and again their actions lead to misery for trillions of beings, and time and again we are supposed to celebrate them.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Burn » Sun May 08, 2022 11:32 pm

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It all makes sense really, and why I've always been "pro-Empire".
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon May 09, 2022 11:41 pm

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Burn wrote:It all makes sense really, and why I've always been "pro-Empire".
Sarcasm? Yes?

But seriously, Palpatine was made to look grotesque, thus casting him as the villain right away. But if you concentrate simply on the events that took place, he really just wanted peace and a dependable government. All the fighting came from everyone else opposing him. He instigated the separatist movement, but had a peaceful resolution planned for it. Too bad the Jedi were too stuck in their ways to allow someone else to be in control.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Burn » Tue May 10, 2022 12:32 am

Motto: "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings to randomly click things in the Admin Panel to see what it breaks."
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Burn wrote:It all makes sense really, and why I've always been "pro-Empire".
Sarcasm? Yes?

Nope.

Never been a fan of the Jedi. They're whole "not allowed attachments" rule just shits me. They're completely inflexible. While the Sith, even though the majority of them have been about ruling and domination, at least allows you freedom to be yourself.

And yes, the Republic was ****. It was corrupt, ineffective. The New Republic (expanded universe books) was no better, it could barely get itself established due to corrupt individuals.

While the Empire may have been totalitarian, it at least did bring order and was a (mostly) effective system, but again, was still prone to corruption which hampered it's effectiveness in certain regions.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Rodimus Prime » Tue May 10, 2022 1:46 am

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I agree pretty much on all points. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it this way. Obviously George Lucas didn't, because he modeled the Empire after the Nazis. So who do rhe Jedi represent? The Catholic Church?
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby iammariamartinez » Tue May 10, 2022 5:26 am

I agree pretty much on all points. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it this way.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Cyber Bishop » Tue May 10, 2022 8:13 am

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Rodimus Prime wrote:So who do rhe Jedi represent? The Catholic Church?


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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Rodimus Prime » Tue May 10, 2022 10:57 am

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
Cyber Bishop wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:So who do rhe Jedi represent? The Catholic Church?


Nope, samurai :-D
Ah. I see. I'm not versed in Japanese culture much, I wouldn't have guessed that, even though they USE SWORDS. :BANG_HEAD: :BANG_HEAD:
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Blastback » Tue May 10, 2022 3:03 pm

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Burn wrote:
Rodimus Prime wrote:
Burn wrote:It all makes sense really, and why I've always been "pro-Empire".
Sarcasm? Yes?

Nope.

Never been a fan of the Jedi. They're whole "not allowed attachments" rule just shits me. They're completely inflexible. While the Sith, even though the majority of them have been about ruling and domination, at least allows you freedom to be yourself.


I liked Jolee Bindo's take on the Jedi and love/attachment in KotOR.

"The Jedi, with their damnable sense of over-caution, would tell you love is something to avoid. Thankfully, anyone who's even partially alive knows that's not true.

And why not? All this nonsense about avoiding love is so much foo-foo. I shouldn't be the only one who realizes that.

Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love.

Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love, itself, will save you... not condemn you."
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby TulioDude » Mon May 16, 2022 9:22 pm

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There is lot to unpack in this "Palpatine is the Hero" post so let go in parts.

Saying that the Jedi are flawed is not controversial statement,since the movies themselves do a good job showing the Jedi as heroic figures while pointing out their mistakes.

In the original trilogy if Darth Vader hadn't told Luke he is his father,Luke would kept fighting Vader,maybe even kill him, without him being aware,while Obi Wan and Yoda kept telling Luke fighting Vader was his destiny.
Luke saw the goodness in Vader and only by believing in his ideals,he beyond just his duties,and helped to redeem Anakin.

The Galatic Republic wasn't working well,part of it was their own fault,by also because Palpaltine was fueling the war behind everyones'back.

The sequel trilogy makes even harder to defend Palpatine,with episode IX being having all of those Star Destroyers ready to destroy a bunch of planets

So...

Did the Jedi made mistakes?Yes.Was the Republic perfect?No.Did the Empire have it's upsides?Yes.Can you criticize the post-Empire governments(both in the original expanded universe and the new Disney canon)?Yes.


But Palpatine as a hero?I disagree.


But it feels good to discuss the lore ;)
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon May 23, 2022 11:56 pm

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I believe the article was written somewhat tongue-in-cheek, though it does make some valid points. Personally I think it's the age-old story of power corrupts (Vader) and absolute power corrupts absolutely (Palpatine), where they both did what they did for what they thought were the right reasons but ended with bad results. Palpatine was on the right track, I believe even after he killed(?) Windu and "turned" Anakin. It was at some point after this that he started liking being the only big dog around a bit much. And Anakin was content (up to a point) standing beside him. Of course, by the final trilogy, which in my opinion was atrocious in itself, Palpatine had gone batshit crazy with his obsession to be omnipotent through the force, and he was finally destroyed.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Cyber Bishop » Sun May 29, 2022 9:34 pm

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Rodimus Prime wrote:by the final trilogy, which in my opinion was atrocious in itself, Palpatine had gone batshit crazy with his obsession to be omnipotent through the force, and he was finally destroyed.


I agree about the atrocious part and that Palpy went batshit crazy.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Rodimus Prime » Mon May 30, 2022 12:43 am

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Anyone care to review the new Obi Wan show? I haven't gotten around to it (Stranger Things 4.1!) but I should this coming week.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby D-Maximal_Primal » Thu Jun 02, 2022 6:46 pm

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Kenobi is a wonderful series so far. I am personally really enjoying it
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Cyber Bishop » Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:35 pm

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D-Maximal_Primal wrote:Kenobi is a wonderful series so far. I am personally really enjoying it


I am as well.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Blastback » Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:09 pm

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So the Rogue Squadron movie has apparently been removed from Disney's release schedule.

Dead lord, regardless of what anyone thinks of the final products, what the crap is going on with Lucasfilm? :???:
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Roadbuster » Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:19 pm

As far as I am concerned, Disney sees fit to keep the same regime in there, so they're bringing it on themselves.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Blastback » Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:53 pm

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I remember hearing there were creative differences between Lucasfilm and Patty Jenkins, that could be a likely culprit. But if so, why announce a movie before you have reached a decision on what it's going to be? especially with all the previous stories of studio turmoil... :HEADHURTS: :HEADHURTS:

And let's not forget that Top Gun Maverick just showed that audiences still enjoy fighter pilot movies.

Maybe for the best, Rogue Squadron was always sacred nerd ground to me. Would have been extra grumpy if they did it in a way I felt was wrong. Yub yub.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Roadbuster » Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:48 pm

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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Blastback » Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:08 pm

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So there's a news story going around that Disney has told Kathleen Kennedy to quit announcing projects until they are set in stone. Which honestly seems pretty overdue at this point. I'm sure movies get greenlit and canceled all the time, but I can't remember ever hearing about it to the degree we have with Star Wars since the Disney buyout. And given the high profile the franchise has, every little thing is going to be amplified....

Other details include that a stand alone film featuring members of the sequel trilogy cast is in the works by Damon Lindelof, and that Lucasfilm is aware of at least some of their mistakes, such as rushing the sequels and an over reliance on fanservice (though in the sequels at least I can't remember I fanservice besides Chewie getting a medal, and that was something everyone groaned at) and is trying to focus on really getting this one right.

The original article is paywalled by a website called Puck, which I'm not familiar with, but it's being reported by a number of others.

https://www.cbr.com/disney-told-star-wa ... -projects/

and on a more fun note, someone is making a cgi animated adaptation of Heir to the Empire on youtube, while another group is doing a cgi film of the first KotOR.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby AcademyofDrX » Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:23 am

I don't see anyone talking about Andor in here. It's not just the best Star Wars show, it's the best original work in a pop culture franchise ever. It's a very different kind of show, not just relative to Star Wars, or even to streaming, but compared to any other tv series including the best of prestige TV. Showrunner Tony Gilroy described the twelve-episode season as four movie-style narratives, but it's not like they just cut a movie into three parts. Episodes have very limited payoff in themselves, but they do function as discrete elements. For that reason, if you haven't checked it out, please commit to at least the first three episodes. You need that much to get a story, even though it's still a fraction of the whole.
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby D-Maximal_Primal » Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:12 pm

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Haven't watched Andor myself yet, hasn't quite got my interest yet, but I have heard it is very good. It's sort of ended up with She Hulk, Ms Marvel, and Falcon and Winter Soldier as a "get to" show.

I did just watch Tales of the Jedi though, and it was real enjoyable. Made me like Yaddle, and really made me care for Dooku. Also, Clancy Brown Inquisitor was awesome to hear and see
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby AcademyofDrX » Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:43 pm

Seriously everyone, watch Andor
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Re: The Star Wars Thread

Postby Rodimus Prime » Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:08 pm

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
Is it available anywhere other than on Disney plus?
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