Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

If G1 Transformers were essentially built and had to have artificial intelligence put into them in order for them to 'activate', wouldn't those Transformers not really be 'alive' but just walking talking toasters with personalities? I know Starscream was the freak exception, but if the other Transformers' 'sparks' were not immortal, wouldn't that imply that they were never alive in the first place? That their 'spark' was merely the product of an advanced computer's programming, and would cease to exist as soon as the Transformer was destroyed?

I don't know. I smashed up my laptop pretty good and the harddrive still worked. Just not everything else. Nothin erased either.

Well the sparks don't sees to exist, they become one with the matrix giving ther wisdom and expiriance to it. Starscream is diferent cos I think thats his special power. You know almoest every G1 TF had his own special power prowided by his spark. And being imortal was probebly Screamers power.

By the way you know that Screamer's last toon apearence in the US show was seasen 3 ep23 Only Human!
He's the mistyrios silver-masked Snake!

Well, for a start, before anyone else says it, there weren't any sparks in G1 itself.

However, going by BW, I always imagined the spark to be an echo of the human soul. I drew parallels between when a TF dies and the spark joins the Matrix, and when a human dies and the soul goes to Heaven (being a Christian or not is irrelevant, it's merely the concept that matters here).

In that respect, the TF's were alive, as their sparks, as Dead Metal states, didn't cease to exist. They just became one with the Matrix. Starscream's mutant spark was an anomaly not because it continued to exist, but because it refused to join the Matrix.

If, however, we go by the G1 cartoon, then there could be a difference of opinion. If the Quintessons built the TF's and imbued them with their spark-equivalents (i.e., whatever it was in G1 that gave the TF's their personalities), then it's arguable as to whether they were alive. Imagine if we, as humans, built a robot that was fully sentient, fully self-aware and had intelligence that equalled or surpassed human intelligence, but, at the end of the day, it was still a man-made construction. Would one class such a robot as alive? If so, then the G1 TF's were alive. If not, then they weren't.

It's been so long, i forgot that Latta was the voice of cobra commander too. Thanks for putting a smile on my face. Yo Joe!

I suppose that depends on what you consider alive. If you say Tfs are not alive because they're just following personality programming, then surely people are not alive for reacting to chemicals in our brains, and just trick ourselves in to thinking we are alive?

Leonardo wrote:Well, for a start, before anyone else says it, there weren't any sparks in G1 itself.

However, going by BW, I always imagined the spark to be an echo of the human soul. I drew parallels between when a TF dies and the spark joins the Matrix, and when a human dies and the soul goes to Heaven (being a Christian or not is irrelevant, it's merely the concept that matters here).

In that respect, the TF's were alive, as their sparks, as Calvatron states, didn't cease to exist. They just became one with the Matrix. Starscream's mutant spark was an anomaly not because it continued to exist, but because it refused to join the Matrix.

If, however, we go by the G1 cartoon, then there could be a difference of opinion. If the Quintessons built the TF's and imbued them with their spark-equivalents (i.e., whatever it was in G1 that gave the TF's their personalities), then it's arguable as to whether they were alive. Imagine if we, as humans, built a robot that was fully sentient, fully self-aware and had intelligence that equalled or surpassed human intelligence, but, at the end of the day, it was still a man-made construction. Would one class such a robot as alive? If so, then the G1 TF's were alive. If not, then they weren't.

I'm not Calvatron, I'm Dead Metal!
Calvatron said his laptop bluw up!

Wasn't it the Super Computer Vector Sigma that became like super intelligent and made the Transformers "alive?" When the Aerial Bots were built they went back to Cybertron to have that computer give the Aerial bots life. So I guess how it may have went down, the Transformers started out as Military and General purpose hardware, the Quints got rich made Vector Sigma to streamline production, something happens, Transformers become alive in the sense that Johnny 5 is alive, tired of being slaves then Cybertrons first golden age happens. Laser cores became sparks in the GREAT TRANSFORMATION mentioned in Beast Machines. How's that sound?

Also trying to make sense of G1 is something you should only do if you're bored. We all know about the plot holes upon plot holes.

Dead Metal wrote:

Leonardo wrote:Well, for a start, before anyone else says it, there weren't any sparks in G1 itself.

However, going by BW, I always imagined the spark to be an echo of the human soul. I drew parallels between when a TF dies and the spark joins the Matrix, and when a human dies and the soul goes to Heaven (being a Christian or not is irrelevant, it's merely the concept that matters here).

In that respect, the TF's were alive, as their sparks, as Calvatron states, didn't cease to exist. They just became one with the Matrix. Starscream's mutant spark was an anomaly not because it continued to exist, but because it refused to join the Matrix.

If, however, we go by the G1 cartoon, then there could be a difference of opinion. If the Quintessons built the TF's and imbued them with their spark-equivalents (i.e., whatever it was in G1 that gave the TF's their personalities), then it's arguable as to whether they were alive. Imagine if we, as humans, built a robot that was fully sentient, fully self-aware and had intelligence that equalled or surpassed human intelligence, but, at the end of the day, it was still a man-made construction. Would one class such a robot as alive? If so, then the G1 TF's were alive. If not, then they weren't.

I'm not Calvatron, I'm Dead Metal!
Calvatron said his laptop bluw up!

O, damn and blast. Sorry, Dead Metal, I really messed up there. I'll change it.

Leonardo wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Leonardo wrote:Well, for a start, before anyone else says it, there weren't any sparks in G1 itself.

However, going by BW, I always imagined the spark to be an echo of the human soul. I drew parallels between when a TF dies and the spark joins the Matrix, and when a human dies and the soul goes to Heaven (being a Christian or not is irrelevant, it's merely the concept that matters here).

In that respect, the TF's were alive, as their sparks, as Calvatron states, didn't cease to exist. They just became one with the Matrix. Starscream's mutant spark was an anomaly not because it continued to exist, but because it refused to join the Matrix.

If, however, we go by the G1 cartoon, then there could be a difference of opinion. If the Quintessons built the TF's and imbued them with their spark-equivalents (i.e., whatever it was in G1 that gave the TF's their personalities), then it's arguable as to whether they were alive. Imagine if we, as humans, built a robot that was fully sentient, fully self-aware and had intelligence that equalled or surpassed human intelligence, but, at the end of the day, it was still a man-made construction. Would one class such a robot as alive? If so, then the G1 TF's were alive. If not, then they weren't.

I'm not Calvatron, I'm Dead Metal!
Calvatron said his laptop bluw up!

O, damn and blast. Sorry, Dead Metal, I really messed up there. I'll change it.

Dosn't matter.

Leonardo wrote:Well, for a start, before anyone else says it, there weren't any sparks in G1 itself.

How about life sparks then?

Stormwolf wrote:

Leonardo wrote:Well, for a start, before anyone else says it, there weren't any sparks in G1 itself.

How about life sparks then?

I can't see those images at work!

Is this a 'ghost in the machine' sort of thing? BEWARE, FOR YOU HAVE UNLEASHED THE NERD!!!!

As far as I'm concerned, life can essentially be defined by these three simple things...

1. Things that are alive eat food, in that their continued survival requires the regular intake of some form of substance that makes for continued functionality.
2. Things that are alive have independent thought processes and/or emotional responses, and so can think and choose for themselves. At the bare minimum, they respond to external stimuli instead of just sitting there.
3. Things that are alive can reproduce, in that they make more of themselves.

Let's address each point one by one.

1. Transformers need energon, and can't go without for long. Wouldn't that make it like their equivalent to food? Otherwise, why were the Decepticons in such a big yank about getting it in G1?
2. Doesn't the fact that they rebelled against their creators in G1 imply that they were capable of independent thought? It's impossible to want to think for yourself if you're not capable of it. Isn't the very act of desiring this an example of independent thought? And it goes without saying that they at least know what's going on around them. DUH!!!
3. If you're a machine and you're making more machines that are one heck of a lot like you, that counts as reproduction. What, after all, is reproduction but making more of whatever you are?

In short, organic materials and processes may be the scientific definition of life, but that's NOT the only way to define it.

...And if you've read this whole thing without falling asleep, congratulations.

Actually it was extremely facinating
Pretty much I had been trying to see that they were true living creatures with a 'soul' and were 'alive' and whatnot. And going by Night Raid's post, they seem to be pretty much 'alive.' I guess a 'soul' is a hard thing to quantify, something that may make a thing truely 'alive' instead of just a twitchy piece of meat or a reactive bit of machinery. Even the TFs in the show call it various things, giving it their variant of names for something that even to them is mysterious and possibly supernatural.

Some say that all life is actually super-advanced programming that comes from a higher realm.