Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Shadowman wrote:You can't really say Transformers is a metaphor of a Culture War without saying every piece of fiction ever made is also a metaphor for Culture War. It's Protagonists vs. Antagonists, same as everything.
Hasbro never, ever put that kind of thought into it. They never put that kind of thought into anything. There is a reason for anything they do, and people seem all to eager to forget what that is. You know why it's the Heroes vs. the Villains? It's a not a metaphor, it's to endear the characters--not the story--to the viewer, who will then go out and purchase or have their parents purchase the toy versions of these characters.
In any case, it's more a combination of various early-80s late-70s conflicts (The Cold War was just winding down, and was still fresh on everyone's minds) as well as the ever-enduring energy crisis.
Dagon wrote:But it can be a metaphor, and in fact, everything can be a metaphor for something else. It's the action of interpretation, not the intention of the creator, that ascribes value. It's Post-structural, Death of the Author stuff, but it's true.
Dagon wrote:You mention the Cold War, and in the case of that interpretation, Transformers can be seen as a metaphor for the Cold War.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Shadowman wrote: You're interpreting it as such, that doesn't mean it actually is. On the other hand, this is just my opinion. I've always had a huge distaste for trying to find meaning that isn't really there. I much prefer to read the story that was actually written, the story the writers intended for people to see.
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Shadowman wrote:
(And before anyone says anything, GI Joe is a metaphor for the US Military beating the ever-loving crap out of any evil organization that stands in their way, they've always been up-front about that)
Dagon wrote:What I was saying at first was that the good/bad sides of this particular metaphor can't just be assigned along faction lines because from medium to medium the lines of good and bad start to blur, with the Megatron Origin story as my example. Depending even on how you interpret the individual TF continuities, regardless of what voice over narration there may be, either side can be viewed as being the good guys. Blanket adherence to a "they are good, the other is bad" philosophy is just stupid.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Shadowman wrote:Dagon wrote:What I was saying at first was that the good/bad sides of this particular metaphor can't just be assigned along faction lines because from medium to medium the lines of good and bad start to blur, with the Megatron Origin story as my example. Depending even on how you interpret the individual TF continuities, regardless of what voice over narration there may be, either side can be viewed as being the good guys. Blanket adherence to a "they are good, the other is bad" philosophy is just stupid.
The idea of the lines between good and evil blurred falls flat when you realize the kinds of things Megatron does or has condoned in order to reach his goals. For instance, attempting to wipe out the human race, or rendering his own homeworld uninhabitable simply because he wanted power, or more power, depending on the continuity. If you're going to use Megatron Origin as an example, in the -tion series, he has a specifically laid-out 6-step plan to ensuring global devastation, which involves as much bloodshed as possible.
Even in Exodus and War for Cybertron, where his goal was actually quite noble (Abolishing the caste system, a goal that most Autobots, including Optimus, agreed with) ended up being distorted over time until it was basically a new goal entirely. (Abolishing free will)
So while the lines between good and evil are normally a point of perspective, that sure as hell doesn't apply to Megatron. To use traditional character alignment, he is, at his nicest, Lawful Evil. (He's even directly quoted on that page!)
Dagon wrote:Well, going with the -tion series, if that is (there's no reason to think it isn't) the same Megatron as the Megatron of Origins, then his chosen method of the 6 step plan is a pattern of learned behavior. He has learned that violence ultimately is the only thing that will get people to listen to him; even the 'peace loving' Autobots in Origin were only interested in him because he was perpetrating violent actions.
Dagon wrote:As for Peace through Tyrany, Megatron isn't saying anything that the Autobots aren't. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, but Prime can justify killing Decepticons by saying they're barbarians that don't deserve something (life, freedom) that they don't themselves value.
Dagon wrote:Also, the line doesn't blur or fall based on the actions or things he's condoned, any more than saying that attaining freedom by any means necessary is admirable. What we have is two sides who essentially agree to tolerate certain amounts of "evil" or immoral deeds so long as the ultimate result is something beneficial to the group.
Dagon wrote:If Cybertronians agree to be subjugated under Megatron so as to acchieve what they want or believe in, then it's not evil.
Dagon wrote:Remember, 'evil' is a quality that is applied by others, not self applied. Megatron is evil to Prime and his guys.....I doubt Starscream and company sit back and think that Megatron is evil. If they elect to be ruled through fear and pain, that is their choice, as Megatron also never made people follow him, unless we feel the need to talk about Inferno's reprogramming in Energon. And really, let's not.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
Shadowman wrote:Dagon wrote:Well, going with the -tion series, if that is (there's no reason to think it isn't) the same Megatron as the Megatron of Origins, then his chosen method of the 6 step plan is a pattern of learned behavior. He has learned that violence ultimately is the only thing that will get people to listen to him; even the 'peace loving' Autobots in Origin were only interested in him because he was perpetrating violent actions.
That doesn't justify anything. He's not a child, he knows he has a choice in the matter. And destroying entire civilizations for attention is probably worse than doing it for power.
Dagon wrote:As for Peace through Tyrany, Megatron isn't saying anything that the Autobots aren't. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, but Prime can justify killing Decepticons by saying they're barbarians that don't deserve something (life, freedom) that they don't themselves value.
Um, no. Autobots believe in Peace through Peace. And they justify killing Decepticons as protecting themselves and, in most cases, humanity. To put it in human perspective, all of us have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Until you start committing crimes, then those same rights are null and void for you.
Dagon wrote:Also, the line doesn't blur or fall based on the actions or things he's condoned, any more than saying that attaining freedom by any means necessary is admirable. What we have is two sides who essentially agree to tolerate certain amounts of "evil" or immoral deeds so long as the ultimate result is something beneficial to the group.
And yet it resulted in a massive civil war that destroyed one planet and spilled over onto many more. All because Megatron wanted power.
Dagon wrote:If Cybertronians agree to be subjugated under Megatron so as to acchieve what they want or believe in, then it's not evil.
None of them agreed to it. That's why they're at war.
[/quote]Dagon wrote:Remember, 'evil' is a quality that is applied by others, not self applied. Megatron is evil to Prime and his guys.....I doubt Starscream and company sit back and think that Megatron is evil. If they elect to be ruled through fear and pain, that is their choice, as Megatron also never made people follow him, unless we feel the need to talk about Inferno's reprogramming in Energon. And really, let's not.
Okay. We could talk about the Constructicon's reprogramming, and how Megatron used them to raze and entire city.
Dagon wrote:BM Megatron brought peace to Cybertron. That's hard to deny, if peace can be said to be lack of discord and conflict. He doesn't do it through the nicest means, but he does it.
And I know that that's the ends justifying the means, and I know that I'm presenting that part pretty poorly.
Dagon wrote:Because it's been proven again and again, they can't just sit the Decepticons down and talk this over, so basically, kill or be killed.
Dagon wrote:Ok, well played. I forgot about that one. We still have to acknowledge that there are those who follow Megatron of their own volition.
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
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