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RAcast wrote:I'm just glad they didn't kill off any more minibots. I cried a little inside when Wheeljack told of Seaspray's untimely demise.

I cried a lot inside when the writers told us they intended to bring him back for season three.

Cyclonus43 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Cyclonus43 wrote:Of course, why would he have no clue what would happen?

Cuz he's never been revealed to have ever experienced/witnessed the opening of two adjacent portals together before.

Ah, well since they never revealed it, then obviously there's no way he could have known about it.

Why would we assume he'd know what to do when the show never gave us reason to believe such?

There's also his rather slow and relaxed turn-around to look at the second portal. If he knew of what was coming, shouldn't he have been a bit more alert and reactive to the second portal's appearance, instead of turning around slowly and calmly? It was his relaxed motion that gave his own portal an opening to catch him off guard and grab him, after all.

Cyclonus43 wrote:

viruscarnage wrote:Why are you acting so arrogant.

So now when I express my feelings, I'm arrogant?

But you still expect him to be dead, despite the realism issues that you may have.

No, I don't. Knowing this shows history I don't in anyway ever believe they'd kill off Bumblebee.

Soundwave is smarter then the kids for the most part, but he was not expecting dual ground bridges to send him to another dimension.

Still not an excuse for his inability to get out of the situation, no matter how ridiculous it may seem to you. You know, like they ALWAYS do for the Autobots.

Go watch Shadowzone.

Watched it, read some other posts and see what I said then.

The reason for his frustrations might have been because no more Autobots other then Cliffjumper died it may have simply not have bothered him a lot until not.

I was never worried about his frustrations or anything else about him, I simply expressed my opinion on the episode, and that was it. I didn't need a forum brigade to come out and give me **** about it.

On the contrary I think they are badass even when you know the outcome.

And that's fine, I'm not being a dick to YOU about YOUR OPINION, I'm simply saying it's not mine, and trying to move on, but you 2 seem to have to read things a hundred times before the point gets made.

LET IT GO.

I'm not even going to bother with this argument any more, it's like arguing with a dog.

PrymeStriker wrote:He clearly meant in the situation you shot someone four times in the chest with a cannon and expecting them to get up, not "you" sitting their watching the show, with Hasbro & the writer's intent in mind.

I enjoy the ironicy of being told I misread something. But it WAS Bumblebee getting shot, therefore I never thought for whatever reason, he was dead/going to die, at worst they would have just re-animated him after the battle.

So, fiction should be real in order to be good fiction. Seems kind of ironic, does it not?

It's not about weather the story is true or false, it's weather it's a believable storyline that matters.

Sabrblade wrote:Soundwave was rendered completely immobilized. As he turned around to look at the second bridge, his own bridge grabbed hold of him and tried to suck him in just as the second one did. How would he know to move away from the two portals if he never knew about what would happen when two portals are open at the same time right next to each other? He sensed no danger in that split-second before he was stuck because he never knew of the danger that would ensue, and thus wasn't prepared to deal with it. It wasn't "idiocy", but "ignorance", that Jack took advantage of. This is no opinion.

Thank you.

Please don't mistake me not constantly responding to the same statements from 2 different people as you being right. It's just me not wanting to be more repetitive than I already have.

Technically, it was 4-6

Autobot casualties
1. Cliffjumper
2. Tailgate
3. Alpha Trion
4. Seaspray
(5 if you count Optimus Prime's 10-second-death)

Decepticon casualties
1. Skyquake
2. Makeshift
3. Breakdown
4. Dreadwing
5. Hardshell
6. Megatron

Yes, technically you'd be correct, except all the Autobots except Cliffjumper, (not counting Optimus) were killed in remembrance sequences, not actually during the show, which I "clearly meant".

viruscarnage wrote:

Cyclonus43 wrote:

viruscarnage wrote:Why are you acting so arrogant.

So now when I express my feelings, I'm arrogant?

But you still expect him to be dead, despite the realism issues that you may have.

No, I don't. Knowing this shows history I don't in anyway ever believe they'd kill off Bumblebee.

Soundwave is smarter then the kids for the most part, but he was not expecting dual ground bridges to send him to another dimension.

Still not an excuse for his inability to get out of the situation, no matter how ridiculous it may seem to you. You know, like they ALWAYS do for the Autobots.

Go watch Shadowzone.

Watched it, read some other posts and see what I said then.

The reason for his frustrations might have been because no more Autobots other then Cliffjumper died it may have simply not have bothered him a lot until not.

I was never worried about his frustrations or anything else about him, I simply expressed my opinion on the episode, and that was it. I didn't need a forum brigade to come out and give me **** about it.

On the contrary I think they are badass even when you know the outcome.

And that's fine, I'm not being a dick to YOU about YOUR OPINION, I'm simply saying it's not mine, and trying to move on, but you 2 seem to have to read things a hundred times before the point gets made.

LET IT GO.

I'm not even going to bother with this argument any more, it's like arguing with a dog.

If it makes you feel any better, I never asked for any of your dickhead comments anyway.

Sabrblade wrote:There's also his rather slow and relaxed turn-around to look at the second portal. If he knew of what was coming, shouldn't he have been a bit more alert and reactive to the second portal's appearance, instead of turning around slowly and calmly? It was his relaxed motion that gave his own portal an opening to catch him off guard and grab him, after all.

I still think he had time, even from the first second he heard the sound, because it's not like they just "appear" open, they take a couple of seconds to open, he could have made an escape. By your logic and what I said earlier, they made Soundwave look weak and like he had turned dumb all of a sudden. I only hold out hope that if anyone can find a way back, it'd be Soundwave....without the assistance of a cell phone of course.

I mean really? Sometimes I can't get a damn signal outside my house, they got one from another f'n dimension????

Cyclonus43 wrote:If it makes you feel any better, I never asked for any of your dickhead comments anyway.

Love you too babe <3

Cyclonus43 wrote:If it makes you feel any better, I never asked for any of your dickhead comments anyway.

But seriously that is a immature insult that won't effect me in any way and you may want to consider growing up.

we may want to cool it down before this thread gets locked.

Sorry for the double post but I thought it was fitting.

Cyclonus43 wrote:I still think he had time, even from the first second he heard the sound, because it's not like they just "appear" open, they take a couple of seconds to open,

This one did.

I went back and rewatched the scene and, using the stopwatch feature on my phone, clocked the portal's opening (multiple times) at about 1.40 seconds from the exact moment Raf presses the button on his keyboard (no joke). Soundwave didn't start turning around until at about 1.50 seconds completing the turn at about 2.50 seconds, and got grabbed at about 3.50 seconds. So, from the time the portal's completely open to when he gets grabbed, there's only a window of 2.10 seconds for Soundwave to move, but that's also including the time it took for the camera to change angles in the scene, which could amount for a few centiseconds, so we'll round it down to just two seconds. But, as relaxed as Soundwave was in that scene, that's not exactly enough time to spur to alertness and jump far away enough to clear the powerful vacuum force of the two portals collapsing onto him. After all, he was going up against a puny fleshling, so surely he wouldn't need to feel all that alert when he's facing something he'd consider to be less than nonthreatening.

Cyclonus43 wrote:he could have made an escape. By your logic and what I said earlier, they made Soundwave look weak and like he had turned dumb all of a sudden.

As I said, he was facing a human. A being the Cons don't fear whatsoever. He didn't count on being bested by them because, to the Cons, humans can't best Decepticons. His overconfidence was his downfall. Being overconfident =/= being stupid.

Cyclonus43 wrote:I only hold out hope that if anyone can find a way back, it'd be Soundwave....

Of course he'll be back. This is Soundwave we're talking about.

Cyclonus43 wrote:without the assistance of a cell phone of course.

I mean really? Sometimes I can't get a damn signal outside my house, they got one from another f'n dimension????

[/quote]Guess there was a cell tower closer to them than to wherever you are.

Sabrblade wrote:I went back and rewatched the scene and, using the stopwatch feature on my phone, clocked the portal's opening (multiple times) at about 1.40 seconds from the exact moment Raf presses the button on his keyboard (no joke). Soundwave didn't start turning around until at about 1.50 seconds completing the turn at about 2.50 seconds, and got grabbed at about 3.50 seconds. So, from the time the portal's completely open to when he gets grabbed, there's only a window of 2.10 seconds for Soundwave to move, but that's also including the time it took for the camera to change angles in the scene, which could amount for a few centiseconds, so we'll round it down to just two seconds. But, as relaxed as Soundwave was in that scene, that's not exactly enough time to spur to alertness and jump far away enough to clear the powerful vacuum force of the two portals collapsing onto him. After all, he was going up against a puny fleshling, so surely he wouldn't need to feel all that alert when he's facing something he'd consider to be less than nonthreatening.

I applaud you for you dedication and I even did this myself with more accurate equipment and got similar results.

Cyclonus43 wrote:

PrymeStriker wrote:He clearly meant in the situation you shot someone four times in the chest with a cannon and expecting them to get up, not "you" sitting their watching the show, with Hasbro & the writer's intent in mind.

I enjoy the ironicy of being told I misread something.

Well, we've been saying the same things about Bumblebee and Soundwave for the last 3 pages. Didn't take me as long to get your point (and even then I was focusing on totally different aspects of your many responses only for you to continuously believe I'm responding to the same old quote).

But it WAS Bumblebee getting shot, therefore I never thought for whatever reason, he was dead/going to die, at worst they would have just re-animated him after the battle.

We're not talking about your perspective - we're talking about Megatron's perspective.

It's not about weather the story is true or false, it's weather it's a believable storyline that matters.

So, giant alien robots that transform into vehicles and animals etc. is a believable storyline?

Please don't mistake me not constantly responding to the same statements from 2 different people as you being right. It's just me not wanting to be more repetitive than I already have.

Of course. You're giving them more of a chance to discuss matters with you than you are with me.

Yes, technically you'd be correct, except all the Autobots except Cliffjumper, (not counting Optimus) were killed in remembrance sequences, not actually during the show, which I "clearly meant".

[/quote]

Seaspray's death occurred some time between Con Job and Loose Cannons. Does that count as "during the show?"

Both sides of the arguement are reading way too deep into this. It has nothing to do with the timing, but all to do with the fact that Soundwave had to lose. If he won, how could the Decepticons be bested? They could have, but everyone would go "what about Soundwave, where was he?/why didn't he help?" It is pretty ridiculous to try and approximate the realism of a scene that isn't meant to be realistic, but a plot point designed to end only one way. Given the laws already established for the Shadowzone in the series, it makes enough sense.

Soundwave could not have underestimated the human when the human is in the Apex Armour. He protected himself with the portal. It was his only defense. It so happens that a space bridge behind him while his is open screws him over. I doubt there is a better defense, short of some mythical weapon, that can take out the Apex armour, so a portal was his only resort. There are WAY more instances in the show where things are kinda retarded, like the fact that one Insecticon was worthy of a fight with Megatron, but 3 of them are worthy of a fight with Bulkhead. Just saying.

It was a wrap up episode. The Decepticons had to lose, and thankfully they didn't lose like they did in DOTM, where Soundwave is bested in a close combat fight with BB, a scout. The show has issues, but its also a kids show, so lets not try so hard to try and pick out flaws coz this episode had only a few of the many that exist in the series. It isn't the best storytelling because, agreeing with Cyclonus43, you really didn't believe it was a true last stand since you knew the Autobots will win. It would have helped if there were more casualites both in the episode and throughout the show for the autobots, but thats an issue with the franchise as a whole, so whatever.

Also, in regards to the deaths of the Autobots vs. the Decepticons. A majority of Decepticons were characters that the audience got to know for a few episodes at least. The Autobots that died were barely known in the TF prime universe, therefore their deaths made less impact. Cyclonus43 is right in that it was rough to see Decepticons getting killed, because the lore paints them as the superior force of strength in combat, and overall, should dominate the Autobots. Again, kids show, so nothing surprises me in each episode when the Autobots win (even if they sorta lost some). But for this last episode to really feel the way we wanted, a terrifying last battle where you really didn't know who was going to win, it would have been great to have the preceeding episodes build up the unstoppable power of the Decepticons a bit more reliably.

I have come to terms with these rules of the show, but I thoroughly enjoyed everything after BBs death to right before he comes back. God it would have been great if BB died. Would have given the show some real balls, haha. Almost like it was when Megatron kills prime in the animated movie.

MINDVVIPE wrote:Also, in regards to the deaths of the Autobots vs. the Decepticons. A majority of Decepticons were characters that the audience got to know for a few episodes at least. The Autobots that died were barely known in the TF prime universe, therefore their deaths made less impact. Cyclonus43 is right in that it was rough to see Decepticons getting killed, because the lore paints them as the superior force of strength in combat, and overall, should dominate the Autobots. Again, kids show, so nothing surprises me in each episode when the Autobots win (even if they sorta lost some). But for this last episode to really feel the way we wanted, a terrifying last battle where you really didn't know who was going to win, it would have been great to have the preceeding episodes build up the unstoppable power of the Decepticons a bit more reliably.

Yeah, but we're talking more about casualty numbers rather than relevancy.

Even then, the only deaths that really mattered were Megatron, Breakdown, and Dreadwing. Makeshift, Skyquake, and Hardshell were a trio of nobodies.

Cliffjumper...his death was such that you could'nt care less, but his importance to Arcee's character and his many mentions and appearances in flashbacks render me reluctant to dub him a "nobody" per-say, and Seaspray was going to come back (though writer intent is irrelevant here). Then, the rest of them were nobodies.

With that in mind, the ratio is rather 1-3. With "main" characters, 0-1.

wow ...

PrymeStriker wrote:Well, we've been saying the same things about Bumblebee and Soundwave for the last 3 pages. Didn't take me as long to get your point (and even then I was focusing on totally different aspects of your many responses only for you to continuously believe I'm responding to the same old quote).

Then for that I apologize. Since you comment on how would Soundwave know they would open a bridge behind him, then Maybe I missed it, how did the kids know Soundwave's first reaction would be to even open a bridge?

We're not talking about your perspective - we're talking about Megatron's perspective.

I'm not talking about Megatron's perspective, I understand HE didn't expect Bumblebee to come back, but I'M the one watching the show, and if I KNOW he's coming back, then it sucks.

So, giant alien robots that transform into vehicles and animals etc. is a believable storyline?

Again, taken out of context, it doesn't matter what the story (context) is about, as long as it has a believable plot/storyline.

Of course. You're giving them more of a chance to discuss matters with you than you are with me.

Don't take it personal, I just got tired of answering the same thing from 2-3 people. I hate when people see 2 people arguing/discussing a point, and then have to ask the same question again.

Seaspray's death occurred some time between Con Job and Loose Cannons. Does that count as "during the show?"

Like Mindwipe mentioned, there was no connection to Seaspray or Cliffjumper. Cliffjumper was used to have Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson voice him, and get that word out, so more people would be interested. I think they could have just as easily told Arcee's story through Tailbreaker.

Skyquake, though irrelevant, had appeal because he was a new "robot", and he carried a size/strength that few of the Decepticons had, or in this case, appeared to have. I'll agree, nobody cared about Hardshell or Makeshift.

MINDVVIPE wrote:Both sides of the arguement are reading way too deep into this. It has nothing to do with the timing, but all to do with the fact that Soundwave had to lose. If he won, how could the Decepticons be bested? They could have, but everyone would go "what about Soundwave, where was he?/why didn't he help?" It is pretty ridiculous to try and approximate the realism of a scene that isn't meant to be realistic, but a plot point designed to end only one way. Given the laws already established for the Shadowzone in the series, it makes enough sense.

Soundwave could not have underestimated the human when the human is in the Apex Armour. He protected himself with the portal. It was his only defense. It so happens that a space bridge behind him while his is open screws him over. I doubt there is a better defense, short of some mythical weapon, that can take out the Apex armour, so a portal was his only resort. There are WAY more instances in the show where things are kinda retarded, like the fact that one Insecticon was worthy of a fight with Megatron, but 3 of them are worthy of a fight with Bulkhead. Just saying.

It was a wrap up episode. The Decepticons had to lose, and thankfully they didn't lose like they did in DOTM, where Soundwave is bested in a close combat fight with BB, a scout. The show has issues, but its also a kids show, so lets not try so hard to try and pick out flaws coz this episode had only a few of the many that exist in the series. It isn't the best storytelling because, agreeing with Cyclonus43, you really didn't believe it was a true last stand since you knew the Autobots will win. It would have helped if there were more casualites both in the episode and throughout the show for the autobots, but thats an issue with the franchise as a whole, so whatever.

Also, in regards to the deaths of the Autobots vs. the Decepticons. A majority of Decepticons were characters that the audience got to know for a few episodes at least. The Autobots that died were barely known in the TF prime universe, therefore their deaths made less impact. Cyclonus43 is right in that it was rough to see Decepticons getting killed, because the lore paints them as the superior force of strength in combat, and overall, should dominate the Autobots. Again, kids show, so nothing surprises me in each episode when the Autobots win (even if they sorta lost some). But for this last episode to really feel the way we wanted, a terrifying last battle where you really didn't know who was going to win, it would have been great to have the preceeding episodes build up the unstoppable power of the Decepticons a bit more reliably.

I have come to terms with these rules of the show, but I thoroughly enjoyed everything after BBs death to right before he comes back. God it would have been great if BB died. Would have given the show some real balls, haha. Almost like it was when Megatron kills prime in the animated movie.

Thank you....again. I can agree with this rationale.

Cyclonus43 wrote:Then for that I apologize. Since you comment on how would Soundwave know they would open a bridge behind him, then Maybe I missed it, how did the kids know Soundwave's first reaction would be to even open a bridge?

The initial answer would be because that's Soundwave's signature move. However, the reason here is that just a few moments prior, he used the same attack on Magnus and the Wreckers, so overhearing the Commander through the intercom, the humans were betting on him doing the same thing.

Don't take it personal, I just got tired of answering the same thing from 2-3 people. I hate when people see 2 people arguing/discussing a point, and then have to ask the same question again.

I can understand the frustration of having to repeat the same thing more than twice, but I believe the overall intent was to better understand the discussion/argument at hand.

I think they could have just as easily told Arcee's story through Tailbreaker.

True, it could have been anyone. But then he wouldn't have been a redshirt.

PrymeStriker wrote:The initial answer would be because that's Soundwave's signature move. However, the reason here is that just a few moments prior, he used the same attack on Magnus and the Wreckers, so overhearing the Commander through the intercom, the humans were betting on him doing the same thing.

Other than using the term "relocation trick", they don't actually say anything about a bridge, nor do I remember them being aware of him being able to do that.

I can understand the frustration of having to repeat the same thing more than twice, but I believe the overall intent was to better understand the discussion/argument at hand.

I agree, it's just not enjoyable to have 2-3 people asking and discussing the same thing when I'm already in that discussion with another person.

True, it could have been anyone. But then he wouldn't have been a redshirt.

Also, the bull horn's on the front would have made less sense if The Rock hadn't supplied the voice.

Cyclonus43 wrote:Other than using the term "relocation trick", they don't actually say anything about a bridge, nor do I remember them being aware of him being able to do that.

I believe they put 2 an 2 together and figured Soundwave just opened up the space bridge through the computer. It would partially explain Miko's surprised face when he had activated it remotely.

PrymeStriker wrote:

Cyclonus43 wrote:Other than using the term "relocation trick", they don't actually say anything about a bridge, nor do I remember them being aware of him being able to do that.

I believe they put 2 an 2 together and figured Soundwave just opened up the space bridge through the computer. It would partially explain Miko's surprised face when he had activated it remotely.

There's also the fact that Soundwave had previously used the trick on Arcee way back in episode 27, given them ample time for Arcee to have told the others how she was forced out of the Nemesis back then. After all, it wasn't just the kids but the 'Bots who knew of Soundwave having that ability, since, when Soundwave used it on the Wreckers in this episode, Magnus's referring it as "one of his relocation tricks", instead of something like "some sort of relocation trick" or simply "a relocation trick", notes that the Autobots knew of Soundwave being able to do that and attribute said ability to Soundwave. They just didn't expect him to do it as he did right then and there. But the kids had the foresight to be prepared for it since Soundwave had just done it and used his own trick against him.

PrymeStriker wrote:

Cyclonus43 wrote:Other than using the term "relocation trick", they don't actually say anything about a bridge, nor do I remember them being aware of him being able to do that.

I believe they put 2 an 2 together and figured Soundwave just opened up the space bridge through the computer. It would partially explain Miko's surprised face when he had activated it remotely.

So then Soundwave was outsmarted by a couple of brats....as I said in the beginning. Just doesn't sound right to me.

Cyclonus43 wrote:So then Soundwave was outsmarted by a couple of brats....as I said in the beginning. Just doesn't sound right to me.

1. How are they "brats"?
2. All they did was distract him and push a button. It would have been the same outcome had it been anyone else.
3. They knew something he didn't and exploited it.

In a way, what they did was more underhanded than anything Soundwave ever did. Instead of putting him out of his misery (which they're natural incapable of doing), they banished him to a purgatory to spend the rest of his days (until he gets out, that is) humbled and humiliated as a helpless prisoner aware of everything around him but powerless to do anything about it. That's sadistic.

Cyclonus43 wrote:

PrymeStriker wrote:

Cyclonus43 wrote:Other than using the term "relocation trick", they don't actually say anything about a bridge, nor do I remember them being aware of him being able to do that.

I believe they put 2 an 2 together and figured Soundwave just opened up the space bridge through the computer. It would partially explain Miko's surprised face when he had activated it remotely.

So then Soundwave was outsmarted by a couple of brats....as I said in the beginning. Just doesn't sound right to me.

Why do you insist on calling them brats? The only 'brat' is Miko in reality. Jack is almost of age to be an agent, and Raf has the intelligence of a 30 year old working at the CIA.

Sabrblade wrote:1. How are they "brats"?

Because they cause trouble by doing dumb ****.

2. All they did was distract him and push a button. It would have been the same outcome had it been anyone else.

But at least it might have been a little more acceptable/believable if someone worthy did it.

3. They knew something he didn't and exploited it.

That you ASSUME he didn't know. There's too many things that can only be guessed at, like Starscream not mentioning that Skyquakes hand appeared out of nowhere, or when Arcee might have mentioned Soundwave's ability to create a bridge. These are only things that can be implied, not proven.

In a way, what they did was more underhanded than anything Soundwave ever did. Instead of putting him out of his misery (which they're natural incapable of doing), they banished him to a purgatory to spend the rest of his days (until he gets out, that is) humbled and humiliated as a helpless prisoner aware of everything around him but powerless to do anything about it. That's sadistic.

I think that's overrating it a bit. Soundwave doesn't have a problem with solitude. Nor will he have a problem finding a way out.

viruscarnage wrote:Why do you insist on calling them brats? The only 'brat' is Miko in reality. Jack is almost of age to be an agent, and Raf has the intelligence of a 30 year old working at the CIA.

I assume you're reading other peoples posts in this thread, and noticed the reason to not ask your question, right?