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sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

decepta-scott wrote:Oh he was quite dead.If you blink you will miss it but there a scene right before hot rad, arcee, springer, kup and daniel slide the launcher into place to fight devestator where arcee is dragging the fallen bots out of the way. Among them were wind charger and wheel jack. They were both very dead.

Sorry but I repeat, theres no SOLID evidence that he was dead.

Laying on the ground with damage to his body is not solid evidence he died.Unlike every confirmed death in the film, Wheeljack and Windcharger did not fade to gray.

They still retained their colors.

So, if you think you can provide Solid, undeniable evidence from the narrative that they died, please do.I've been waiting over 26 years for someone to do that.

Ya know Ive just about had it with those of you who feel you have the right to act like complete butt heads for no reason at all. If you want to act like that please dont post.
As for your comments Prime was the ONLY bot to turn grey when he died. It was done for dramatic effect. The death of a leader, a hero. Dont read to deep into it.
Prowl, Iron hide, Brawn and Ratchet are dead as well but they didnt turn grey. Are you saying there is no solid proof of their demise as well? Ultra magnus didnt even turn grey (his parts anyway) and he was blown to PIECES! before yoiu go draging screamer into this he dosent count. He was turned to ash by Galvatron. Ash is grey hence screamer being turned into ash was grey as well.
I would think that the twisted remains of the bots being drug about, the fact that noone was trying to "fix" him and his absence in the toons after the movie events would be enough. Seeing a few bots that are supposed to have died drawn into toon in obscure sceenes dosent do it for me. IMO that is clearly a screw up. I think the whole prime turnng grey thing is being over analized here. They were trying to make an important sceene hit us in the heart and seeing your hero turn black with death does just that. I seriously doubt they thought they would have to go turning every bot they wanted to kill off grey to quell arguements twenty plus yrs later. Come on man. They were seen SHREADED AND MANGLED. Ofcourse they were dead.
If you need to believe he is alive though then by all means believe it.
If you wanna debate with members do it. Do it without acting like a butt though.

This argument again? Brawn, Ironhide, Ratchet, Prawl, Windcharger, and Wheeljack were killed. Yes they were seen again but in an episode riddled with errors. Not unlike the previous season that contained several animation errors as well.

Seeing as Ratchet, Wheeljack, Ironhide, Tracks, and Prowl are my favourite Transformers of all time, you can probably understand why I hate the movie, lol.

decepta-scott wrote: Ya know Ive just about had it with those of you who feel you have the right to act like complete butt heads for no reason at all. If you want to act like that please dont post.

Calls me a butt head but doesnt check his/her facts.

And I've just about had it with those persons that think they know what their talking about when they obviously dont.

I'm not acting like a but head.I'm citing actual facts that can be confirmed/verified by a closer look at the film.

If you cant stand being corrected or shown the facts then maybe you shouldnt try correcting others.Particularity with false/erroneous information.

As for your comments Prime was the ONLY bot to turn grey when he died.

Or really???


YOUR FLAT OUT WRONG

Starscream turned gray.

Ratchet's hand and arm is gray [as Megatron pass's him and Ironhide on the ground


Watch the close up of Prowl's face, pay attention to the horns on his head.






As you can see, optimus wasnt the only one to turn gray.

Maybe you need to re-watch the film before you post.Who's the buthead now?

It was done for dramatic effect. The death of a leader, a hero. Dont read to deep into it.

Sure it was done for dramatic effect, but it was done for all the seen confirmed deaths except Ironhide

Prowl, Iron hide, Brawn and Ratchet are dead as well but they didnt turn grey.

As you can see, I already proved you wrong on Prowl,and Ratchet.Ironhides body wasnt seen after he was shot at close range.

But Ironhides death was confirmed in season 3

Are you saying there is no solid proof of their demise as well?

There is no solid proof from within the narrative that Brawn died.

Ultra magnus didnt even turn grey (his parts anyway) and he was blown to PIECES!

Theres no reason to believe he died when he was blown to peaces.

We have seen, in the G1 series, characters survive being taken apart and being blowen apart.

before yoiu go draging screamer into this he dosent count. He was turned to ash by Galvatron. Ash is grey hence screamer being turned into ash was grey as well.

To begin with all ash is not gray.

And it does count,he turned gray before he turned to dust.

They were seen SHREADED AND MANGLED. Ofcourse they were dead.

We have seen others damaged in similar ways and survive.

If you need to believe he is alive though then by all means believe it.

A] I dont need to believe they lived and...
B] I personally think they died....but

As I said, theres no solid proof from within the naritive that Brawn,Wheeljasck or Windcharger died.

If you wanna debate with members do it. Do it without acting like a butt though.

And if you want to debate others and insult them as well I suggest you check your facts first.Because your attempt to make a fool of me only result in you making a fool of yourself.

JeffX wrote:This argument again? Brawn, Ironhide, Ratchet, Prawl, Windcharger, and Wheeljack were killed. Yes they were seen again but in an episode riddled with errors. Not unlike the previous season that contained several animation errors as well.

I repeat, theres no solid evidence from within the narrative that Brawn, Windcharger and Wheeljack died.

Stovokor has a point. You have to keep in mind as well that these are machines and the same rules of life and death don't apply to them like they do to us. Even if a Transformer's body gets completely destroyed, they can still plausibly be brought back to life as long as their brains/laser cores/central processors/etc. are intact and are placed into a new or repaired body.

We see this happening all the time, inside and outside the movie. City of Steel, Starscream's Bridge, TFTM etc. Feasibly they might even be able to back themselves up, which is the kind of idea a mad scientist like Wheeljack might come up with.

Tekka wrote:We see this happening all the time, inside and outside the movie. City of Steel, Starscream's Bridge, TFTM etc. Feasibly they might even be able to back themselves up, which is the kind of idea a mad scientist like Wheeljack might come up with.

Was it escalation where Prime was pretty much destroyed by megs, but he sent his spark into the trailer or something (its late and im not good with memory lol).

I don't know, lol. =( I don't read the comics!

Tekka wrote:Stovokor has a point. You have to keep in mind as well that these are machines and the same rules of life and death don't apply to them like they do to us. Even if a Transformer's body gets completely destroyed, they can still plausibly be brought back to life as long as their brains/laser cores/central processors/etc. are intact and are placed into a new or repaired body.

We see this happening all the time, inside and outside the movie. City of Steel, Starscream's Bridge, TFTM etc. Feasibly they might even be able to back themselves up, which is the kind of idea a mad scientist like Wheeljack might come up with.

Thank you very much.

Am I really reading this? People arguing vehemently about which friggin' Transformers are dead and which aren't? Could you possibly be any more nerdy? Some of you take this way too seriously. Certain bots in the movie where shown being shot all to hell, (or in the case of Wheeljack, chest blasted open and cold, dead eyes) and then never appeared again, (outside of animation errors which every G1 series is riddled with). They're dead - get over it.

Bleak5170 wrote:Am I really reading this? People arguing vehemently about which friggin' Transformers are dead and which aren't? Could you possibly be any more nerdy? Some of you take this way too seriously. Certain bots in the movie where shown being shot all to hell, (or in the case of Wheeljack, chest blasted open and cold, dead eyes) and then never appeared again, (outside of animation errors which every G1 series is riddled with). They're dead - get over it.

Don't shoot your mouth off like an idiot. You're on a forum dedicated to Transformers, obviously nerds and geeks are abound, get over that. If you want to participate in discussions; engage your brain and formulate some logical responses instead of crying.

These are machines, they don't suffer the same level of mortality that we do. They can have their essential components preserved, and can be repaired, and rebuilt. It's not a hard concept to grasp. This happens in the cartoon on a regular basis, the movie doesn't get to be special when it's in continuity with the rest of the series.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

decepta-scott wrote: Ya know Ive just about had it with those of you who feel you have the right to act like complete butt heads for no reason at all. If you want to act like that please dont post.

Calls me a butt head but doesnt check his/her facts.

And I've just about had it with those persons that think they know what their talking about when they obviously dont.

I'm not acting like a but head.I'm citing actual facts that can be confirmed/verified by a closer look at the film.

If you cant stand being corrected or shown the facts then maybe you shouldnt try correcting others.Particularity with false/erroneous information.[quote]

Im only going to respond to the comments I need to. You proved nothing. You are literally frame by framing things here? LOL!!
prowl dose not turn grey. He is clearly seen lying on the floor with all color on him as the cons fly to operate the arc. Not sure why he was grey for TWO FRAMES but he isnt grey later.
Ratchets arms are white normaly. they simple retained their color. Wheel jack is white grey and black as well. If you go by your arguement here wheel jack was drained of color as he lie shreaded on the floor and therefore dead as well. wtf!?.
Brawn and iron hide both retain color as well. You are WRONG!
Ultra magnus was DEAD! He had to be brought back by the junkions. His parts held their color though. How could this be? Could you be reading to deep into things?
As for starscream, Ive already told you. Ash is grey. He was turned to ash and so he was grey. Gettin it? To say that not all ash is grey and that bla bla bla is silly. You are grasping at straws.
I own this movie and checked "my facts"
If you are still pissed that they killed your favs join the club. I started this thread to show just how bad it screwed with me.
You are grasping at straws my friend. You are also reading way to deep into things.
I am no fool and I dont need to try and make you look like one either. You do a great job all by your lonesome. I am ignorant of facts in plenty of areas but this is not one of them. Sorry but you are wrong........... Butt head

I'm just gonna say that when Ultra Magnus dies post-season 3, his body doesn't turn gray (yet he's still dead since everyone, even the episode title, says so).



Now, even though this is Japanese continuity, this Ultra Magnus shared the same "blowing up" fate in the movie as his English-speaking counterpart. Since he didn't turn grey for his death or his blowing up, yet he was still undeniably dead in his death, is it too much of a stretch to assume that his English-language counterpart functions in a similar manner to say that he doesn't need to turn gray to be dead either?

Now, let me just add that the Japanese did retain the "turning gray" trait for other dying characters (even for an organic!), yet, Magnus is still somehow a notable exception to this.

Tekka wrote:

Bleak5170 wrote:Am I really reading this? People arguing vehemently about which friggin' Transformers are dead and which aren't? Could you possibly be any more nerdy? Some of you take this way too seriously. Certain bots in the movie where shown being shot all to hell, (or in the case of Wheeljack, chest blasted open and cold, dead eyes) and then never appeared again, (outside of animation errors which every G1 series is riddled with). They're dead - get over it.

Don't shoot your mouth off like an idiot. You're on a forum dedicated to Transformers, obviously nerds and geeks are abound, get over that. If you want to participate in discussions; engage your brain and formulate some logical responses instead of crying.

These are machines, they don't suffer the same level of mortality that we do. They can have their essential components preserved, and can be repaired, and rebuilt. It's not a hard concept to grasp. This happens in the cartoon on a regular basis, the movie doesn't get to be special when it's in continuity with the rest of the series.

Sabrblade wrote:I'm just gonna say that when Ultra Magnus dies post-season 3, his body doesn't turn gray (yet he's still dead since everyone, even the episode title, says so).



Now, even though this is Japanese continuity, this Ultra Magnus shared the same "blowing up" fate in the movie as his English-speaking counterpart. Since he didn't turn grey for his death or his blowing up, yet he was still undeniably dead in his death, is it too much of a stretch to assume that his English-language counterpart functions in a similar manner to say that he doesn't need to turn gray to be dead either?

Now, let me just add that the Japanese did retain the "turning gray" trait for other dying characters (even for an organic!), yet, Magnus is still somehow a notable exception to this.

Yes. And as I said before all the bots on the arc retained their color despite being killed. You can clearly see them lying on the floor and you dont have to frame by frame anything to see it either. Im going to say they are dead. I hate that they are and it all but ruined not only the movie but seasons three and four for me.
p.s. How can I get ahold of those epps from japan? What happened to magnus and were they able to bring him back..........AGAIN? Are there english sub titles or dare I hope..... english voice overs?

decepta-scott wrote: Im only going to respond to the comments I need to. You proved nothing. You are literally frame by framing things here? LOL!!

Respond or dont, I proved everything I claimed.

Your denying it wont change that.

prowl dose not turn grey. He is clearly seen lying on the floor with all color on him as the cons fly to operate the arc. Not sure why he was grey for TWO FRAMES but he isnt grey later.

So, now your contradicting yourself.Your argument has failed.

That "flyby" shot only shows his bacvk, and he is already black and white.The close up shot is m,ore important, and if you look at his horns they go from red to gray.

Ratchets arms are white normaly. they simple retained their color.

His arm is nmormally brighjter whiter,. anmd for some reason your ignoring or missing his hands.

Normally RED



And Gray after dieing.


So, again....YOUR WRONG

Wheel jack is white grey and black as well. If you go by your arguement here wheel jack was drained of color as he lie shreaded on the floor and therefore dead as well. wtf!?.

Your confusing a shadowing effect with coloring.


as you can see, the red and green of his chest is as vibrant as ever.

So, again....YOUR WRONG

Brawn and iron hide both retain color as well. You are WRONG!

Nothing you provided comes close to suggesting I'm wrong.

You still havent provided anything from within the narrative that says Brawn's dead and Ironhides body was never seen after what looked like the head/kill shot.

So, we dont know if he turned gray.

Ultra magnus was DEAD! He had to be brought back by the junkions. His parts held their color though. How could this be? Could you be reading to deep into things?

'As I and Tekka already pointed out, we have seen other characters survive the same type of injuries.

Theres no reason to believe he was dead.

You really need to learn the basics of the art of debate.

As for starscream, Ive already told you. Ash is grey.

As I told you, not all ash is gray.

And he turned gray before he turned to ash.

Your just trying, and failing, to safe face.

You were wrong.Accept it.

I own this movie and checked "my facts"

obviously your didnt, or have an issue reporting them.

You were wrong about Prowl, wrong about Ratchet.

You claim Ironhide didnt turn gray, but the FACT is we dont know because we didnt see his body in death.

If you are still pissed that they killed your favs join the club. I started this thread to show just how bad it screwed with me.

Ironhide was the only one in that group I liked.

I am no fool and I dont need to try and make you look like one either.

And yet you tried by operning your last reply with asn insult?

[quoter] You do a great job all by your lonesome.[/quote]

Wish I could return the commnent.

thats not intended as a "jab" or insult, but you havent provided any facts of your own and you were wrong on a few points.

I am ignorant of facts in plenty of areas but this is not one of them.

Sorry buddy, bnut I just proved this is one of them.

Sorry but you are wrong........... Butt head

So, an insult again?

Shows how childish and foolish you are.

As it stands, you have been proven wrong...learn to accept it.

To further stoke this fire, because that is what I like doing, the fact that Wheeljack never appeared again after the movie is proof of nothing except the terrible continuity of the series. This precedence has been set by Cliffjumper. He was seen alive and well at the end of the movie celebrating the Autobot victory and then is never seen, heard from, or even mentioned in anyway whatsoever once the movie credits rolled.

However, with that said, I'm on the side of the jury that believes the circumstancial evidence points to the death of Wheeljack. The whole point of the movie was to destroy the pre-movie figures while providing some sort of explanation to the kids that the figures are dead so they will want to play with and would buy the new figures.

While I agree that there IS room for argument, it is basically nothing more than the "so you're saying there's a chance" argument. All of the circumstancial evidence certainly proves more about death than it does life.

And since the subject came up in a previous post, I will mention it. Sadly to say for some but Skywarp does NOT become Cyclonus. Since Thundercracker became Scourge, it would have been very fitting that Skywarp become Cyclonus. If you don't want to buy the "fore front of the scene" argument then I offer this: Once all of the formatting is done, it is the Bombshell Cyclonus that transforms and assumes the lead position of the armada as it flys off. The Skywarp Cyclonus falls in behind and then promptly disappears forever.

Sorry but as the song writer once wrote, "Thats just the way it is, things will never be the same. Thats just the way it is, aw yeah."

Sabrblade wrote:I'm just gonna say that when Ultra Magnus dies post-season 3, his body doesn't turn gray (yet he's still dead since everyone, even the episode title, says so).

Japanese continuity.

There are a few things that were done differently in the Japanese shows.Theres no logical reason to consider any of it for the purpose of this debate.

decepta-scott wrote: Yes. And as I said before all the bots on the arc retained their color despite being killed.

And as I already proved, your wrong.

Ratchet turned gray, Prowl turned gray.

p.s. How can I get ahold of those epps from japan? What happened to magnus and were they able to bring him back..........AGAIN? Are there english sub titles or dare I hope..... english voice overs?

you can watch most on YouTube

joesaysso wrote:To further stoke this fire, because that is what I like doing, the fact that Wheeljack never appeared again after the movie is proof of nothing except the terrible continuity of the series. This precedence has been set by Cliffjumper. He was seen alive and well at the end of the movie celebrating the Autobot victory and then is never seen, heard from, or even mentioned in anyway whatsoever once the movie credits rolled.

Not to mention all the other Autobots we never see again.

However, with that said, I'm on the side of the jury that believes the circumstancial evidence points to the death of Wheeljack. The whole point of the movie was to destroy the pre-movie figures while providing some sort of explanation to the kids that the figures are dead so they will want to play with and would buy the new figures.

While I agree that there IS room for argument, it is basically nothing more than the "so you're saying there's a chance" argument. All of the circumstancial evidence certainly proves more about death than it does life.

Keep in mind that I already stated I personally believe that they died, but the canon circumstantial evidence in this case swings both ways equally.

Nothing the writers claim, or the "so called" point of the film is canon.Its production materials and thats all.

The evidence from within the narrative says as much about life as it does death.

And since the subject came up in a previous post, I will mention it. Sadly to say for some but Skywarp does NOT become Cyclonus.

Correct.

The Skywarp Cyclonus falls in behind and then promptly disappears forever.

Actually he doesnt just disappear.He can be seen attacking the Autobot shuttles as they escape Autobot city.And a number of "cyclonus clones" were seen in 5 faces of darkness.

decepta-scott wrote: p.s. How can I get ahold of those epps from japan? What happened to magnus and were they able to bring him back..........AGAIN? Are there english sub titles or dare I hope..... english voice overs?

Have seriously not been following ANY of the news about this show's DVD release? How can you avoid that on this site?

http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/viewtopic.php?t=73915
http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/viewtopic.php?t=74330
http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/viewtopic.php?t=75421
http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/viewtopic.php?t=75781
http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/viewtopic.php?t=75794
http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/viewtopic.php?t=77937
http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/viewtopic.php?t=78075
http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/viewtopic.php?t=78352

missed this before.

Sabrblade wrote:Now, even though this is Japanese continuity, this Ultra Magnus shared the same "blowing up" fate in the movie as his English-speaking counterpart.

Actully thats not exactly true.

The headmaster series was written and produced well before they got the film.And the writers didnt even seem to have much info asbout what happened in the film.

Its the reason why characters like POrowl were alive in the series.

They wrote UM's death before they knew if he did or didnt turn gray.Theres nmo reason to make any conclisions by the lack of turning graw in the japanese episode.

could be the writers just chose to abandon the concept.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Actually he doesnt just disappear.He can be seen attacking the Autobot shuttles as they escape Autobot city.And a number of "cyclonus clones" were seen in 5 faces of darkness.

In the attack on the autobot shuttles, all decepticons stay inside the ship with the exception of Cyclonus; who is ordered by Galvatron to transform and attack. Also, only one Cyclonus during the battle on Junkion. All of the rest was Galvatron, a few sweeps, and some supporting characters.

I'll concede of the 5 Face of Darkness episode as I don't feel like digging it out right now.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:missed this before.

Sabrblade wrote:Now, even though this is Japanese continuity, this Ultra Magnus shared the same "blowing up" fate in the movie as his English-speaking counterpart.

Actully thats not exactly true.

The headmaster series was written and produced well before they got the film.And the writers didnt even seem to have much info asbout what happened in the film.

Its the reason why characters like POrowl were alive in the series.

They wrote UM's death before they knew if he did or didnt turn gray.Theres nmo reason to make any conclisions by the lack of turning graw in the japanese episode.

could be the writers just chose to abandon the concept.

The Japanese were still aware of the film's events and knew of some of it. They just didn't get around to dubbing it until years later. While they may not have known of each specific death, they at least knew of Optimus' death, hence all the TV Magazine story pages describing his death prior to their dub of season 3 airing in 1986.

And, despite the movie being dubbed later, that still does not change that the Japanese dub of the film still takes place before The Headmasters. Magnus still suffers the same fate in the movie dub chronologically before his later death. And both cases have him not turning gray, while other characters who died in The Headmasters (Blaster, Soundwave, Makk's father, etc.) DID turn gray. That is canon fact.

joesaysso wrote:In the attack on the autobot shuttles, all decepticons stay inside the ship with the exception of Cyclonus; who is ordered by Galvatron to transform and attack. Also, only one Cyclonus during the battle on Junkion. All of the rest was Galvatron, a few sweeps, and some supporting characters.

You must have mis-read my post.

Here it is again...

"He can be seen attacking the Autobot shuttles as they escape Autobot city"

And heres a few shots.

1 cyclones attacks from the front.

and then pass's above


the 2nd cyclonus attacks from the side and underneath.

I'll concede of the 5 Face of Darkness episode as I don't feel like digging it out right now.

dont worry, heres a few shots

Sabrblade wrote:The Japanese were still aware of the film's events and knew of some of it.

Theres only evidernce that they knew the basics.

That Optimus died, and that Rodimus took over.

The seemed to have no detailsd about Prowels death, or about Wheeljacks "apparent" death.

Theres no reason to berlieve they hasd asny info about what happened to Ultra Magnus.

They just didn't get around to dubbing it until years later. While they may not have known of each specific death, they at least knew of Optimus' death, hence all the TV Magazine story pages describing his death prior to their dub of season 3 airing in 1986.

I dont see how's thats relevant to this debate.

And, despite the movie being dubbed later, that still does not change that the Japanese dub of the film still takes place before The Headmasters.

And that doesnt change the fact that Headmasters was written and produced before they dubbed the film.

And that the evidence suggest that they had very little details about the other characters.

The fact that the film takes place before the series is irrelevant to this debate because we have no reason to believe they had any knowledge of Magnus being blown up before they killed him off in the hm series.