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Ever since I got Deathsaurus came in the mail it's really been bothering me that I bought the guy without really knowing who he is properly. It's all just visuals. TBH, even though I've been a Transformers fan for ages there's a whole lot of Transformers shows I just haven't seen. Like at all.

JG1
JBeast Wars
Car Robots / RID
Unicron Trilogy
Rescue Bots
Go!
Robots in Disguise (2015)
Cyberverse
War for Cybertron Trilogy
BotBots
EarthSpark

That's a lot. A LOT. Let's see how far I get, lol. I kind of want to see at least until the UT. Maybe by the end of that I'll be all Transformered out. When these were on (minus the stuff I just didn't have access to) I just couldn't get into them. I dunno. I like anime. I like Transformers. But, at the time, the two just didn't gel for me. But here I am.

Headmasters

Trash. I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll post my thoughts here too.

This series just can't be bothered with it's legacy characters. Everyone is either reduced to cartoonish buffoons or bland carboard. Optimus Prime is here to do absolutely nothing and then die in vain because Cybertron is destroyed shortly after. You'd think that would bother the TFs. You'd think. But it's never mentioned. In fact they have a base on Athenia.

To underscore the lack of care Rodimus, Kup, and Blur fly off to search for a new home for the Autobots. No, not in Skylynx or a shuttle. No, they fly like Superman! Arcee ... the less said about Arcee the better.

So Scorponok destroys plants to get energy. You'd think that would be his thing since he does it early on. But no. No! Never comes up again after the Autobots stop him from destroying Earth.

Things get better after the Targetmasters are introduced. At episode 27 out of 34. The show has more focus and pacing So if you want to watch the series, just skip here.

I think Sixshot has to be the MVP. By default. The characters don't have much ... character, but he does so he gets the prize. He's so weird. He does these heinous things. Killing Magnus was fair enough, but torturing Jack and then sending out to be a human bomb? But then, shortly after he decides that he "doesn't use his guns on children" and he's this conflicted honorable warrior? And, for some reason, Scorponok tries to kill him?

Anyway, this series is so poorly thought out it's criminal. The Monsterbots were in all of one episode. The Combiners, once MVPs, are now just bigger troops who shoot at each other. I can't say any episodes are really standouts. And this is a series where they do things that could have been truly gutsy! It's gutsy to destroy Cybertorn. It's gutsy to kill longtime characters. But none of it has payoff. Galvatron seemingly dies and returns and you'd think there'd be tension between him and Scorponok, but there's not really anything. They just pass the time being energy pirates in space. Optimus Prime goes unmourned, Cybertron isn't brought up again, Soundwave and Blaster are revived within an episode so we don't have time to miss them. Mars is destroyed! MARS! And, despite it being played up the episode prior, it never gets referenced afterwards.

I get the sense that they suddennly got a lot more episodes and thought "oh ****, what are we gonna do now?" and brought Galvatron so they could just waste time. And it feels like wasted time too. It feels like they made a mistake and backpedaled. There is no playing with the characters. It's disappointing.

Galvatron gets beaten by the Care Bear Stare.

Scorpokok gets beaten by the Care Bear Stare.

Trash.

Masterforce

Masterforce. I think it's best to just pretend it's in it's own little continuity when watching it.

Despite there being an Autobot City (maybe three depending on how you count) nobody seems to remember the Autobots. Chromedome makes a cameo, but that's about it.

The proper Decepticons are monsters most of the time who initially use zombies (of all things) while the Autobots pretend to be human and talk about going on dates. And then there are the proper humans who all get more attention.

The Headmaster Jrs are all pretty likeable. I had Squeezeplay as a kid, so it's nice to see him in context.

Did you know the Firecons are in this show? As disposable fodder in a couple episodes? Such a waste! And, speaking of waste, Pirranacon is a real paper tiger. Ginrai literally tears through the Seacons every episode and hands the guy his ass. I thought this show was supposed to sell us toys! Where is the menace? They could have has 7 unique characters, but we barely get ONE in Turtler. And he mostly just growls angrily as he flees. Geez. They wasted Doubledealer too. Are they unable to plan these things out?

Overlord is cool, though. I like that they give a damn about their minions. I like his rivalry with Ginrai. But the Decepticons lose too much. So he has diminishing returns.

Ginrai steals the show. I do like how all of his play features are gradually built up from cab to Super to God. You get to enjoy them all. But I don't get why he was just handed the reigns outside of meta reasons.

But despite all of this, Masterforce is a pretty fun watch mainly because of it's action. Kinda starts slow, but it gets up there. I just wish the episodes were more inventive. Megatron found new ways to try and kill the Autobots every week! Some episodes were about other things.

Victory

Best one yet. Haven't watched Zone yet. I can see why Star Saber used to be popular. We're back to "let's kick ass". Ginrai kicked ass too, but I dunno. Star Saber has a confidence. A swagger.

It's a pity the roster is so small. And that it doesn't really impress me. At least, on the Autobot side.

Dinoking is great. A team of Season 3 Grimlocks. BUT they kick ass! They're funny goofballs. Only two really have personality, but that's kind of part the course for Combiner teams? And they're actually made to seem threatening in fights! But they never seem to transform into alt mode. Hm. Why couldn't the Seacons be done like this!? It's not like MF has a lot of strong Decepticons.

LioKaiser. Is he the strongest G1 combiner in animation? The cartoon takes it's time to fully develop each member too. And he only loses his edge once we meet Victory Saber. The he ... looses it quite badly. But still! I can now see why people want a version of this guy.

Deathsaurus. Is Megatron, basically. Except with just one plan, so he's a less creative Megatron. But cooler looking. But he has some epic fights with Star Saber and that adds a lot.

Victory is where I think they remembered they had to sell toys. It's a pity there's not much to work with here. Late era G1 ... Victory Saber and Deathsaurus are great, but you don't have that variety of product any more. I never liked Micromasters to start with (may be why the UT just didn't grab me).

Victory was pretty good, as children's shows go. But, like Masterforce and Headmasters, it doesn't get inventive. We do get one episode where the base egts infiltrated and where the Deceticons try to use bugs to kill Star Saber. That's good. But it's all "steal energy, steal energy, steal energy!" Remember when Megatron decided to make New York into a new Cybertron because he didn't think he could get back to Cybertron? Or when the Autobots brainwashed Devestator to be an Autobot?

So, all in all, JG1 (minus Zone) has an increase in quality in terms of storytelling and animation. But it never got truly inventive. I wish it has asked some questions of itself.

Like it would have been good to know how much Ginrai identified himself with the human Ginrai. Have the human make a guest star in one episode maybe? Masterforce ends abruptly so we never know exactly how much the human minds are echoed into their former Transtectors. The Decepticon ones turn on their humans pretty quickly.

We only see Black Shadow and Blue Bacchus once. Deathsaurus only has two combiner teams! The Autobots outnumber him severely! Why aren't these guys on the cast? It's weird we only see Machtacle twice too. Not that the Autobots aren't overstaffed, but still. This is about selling toys, right?

So yeah. Let me know what you guys think about JG1. I head JBW is ... not great.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Ever since I got Deathsaurus came in the mail it's really been bothering me that I bought the guy without really knowing who he is properly. It's all just visuals. TBH, even though I've been a Transformers fan for ages there's a whole lot of Transformers shows I just haven't seen. Like at all.

JG1
JBeast Wars
Car Robots / RID
Unicron Trilogy
Rescue Bots
Go!
Robots in Disguise (2015)
Cyberverse
War for Cybertron Trilogy
BotBots
EarthSpark

I haven't watched the JG1 stuff either, but I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on the Unicron Trilogy when you get there. As someone who grew up with the Unicron Trilogy, they're such a core part of my idea of what Transformers is.

I want to get to the UT. I feel like I missed out. I plan to watch it subbed (all of the Japanese stuff, so I'll miss out on Haiku Skybite). I'm really curious as to how they handle Primus. I watched some episodes, but I could count them on one hand.

It's interesting to see how G1 played out. I wish I had nicer things to say about it. I think the writers didn't "get" transformers and didn't understand how to make the story actually interesting. I'd recommend Victory. Masterforce is good too, but be prepared for a very weird take on TFs.

Zone

WTF was this? Honestly, what was this???

One day a alien being decided he wants to take over the universe, but the new Decepticon toys are all too lame to use (or maybe not made yet?) so he raids his older bro's old toy box in the basement and breaks out all his best toys. And then, because he's a very amateur customizer, slaps some new armor on them to make them "cooler". In the process he gets glue everywhere and they no longer transform. Also his older bro has lost Predaking's head so he has to replace it with the head from some doofy KO.

Pradaking. My boy. Look at what they have done to my boy!!!! I've only seen pics of him from a distance or being sliced in half before. He looks horrible! He has this incredible design and Zone makes him look ... absolutely abysmal! Why? He could at least look cool!

Pirannacon has finally stopped sucking enough to be useful. I guess all that glue alien guy got all over him was enough to hold the Seacons together.

I thought Black Zarak was dead! Maybe they forgot? I guess Zarak could have popped out before Ginrai blasted him apart and rebuilt his giant body. Why bother with an eyepatch?

Devestator finds the Zodiac energy deep within the Earth that was always there (don't question it!). Did he know where it was because he nearly drilled to the center of the planet that one time? That's what went through my mind when I watched this. He finally bites the dust here. MVP of all combiners. I guess we all gotta go someday. RIP, man.

Star Saber - Gives up being Supereme Commander to Dai Atlas. I guess he got tired of being awesome all the time?

Dai Atlas - if the point of this OVA was to get me to care about Dai Atlas - mission fail. He's too generic in terms of personality and looks. We don't spend enough time with him for me to really get to know him or for me to be impressed with anything he does. Even Hot Rod gets a full movie for me to like him before he becomes Rodimus (and I REALLY liked him, even though I was mad they killed my fav OP). But Dai Atlas has a bit over 20 minutes to work with. It's a real uphill battle.

His design is just too busy in a bad way too.

I read on the wiki that this was followed by more story in TV magazine. Or maybe the manga and TV magazine are the primary source for the a story and the OVA was very, VERY secondary. I mean that seems to be the case. The OVA feels like it's missing a whole lot. It seems like episode 1 of an aborted series. But I also know there's nothing more coming. And also there's not really any new Decepticons.

Skip Zone. It adds nothing. They should have made it a 2 hour long movie and gave Dai Atlas more of a personality beyond "so cool even Star Saber had to concede leadership". Maybe just have Star Saber too injured to continue leading after saving that kid. Sad, but it happens. Except to Scorponok who can survive anything.

Beast Wars II

Just finished with Ep 10 of Beast Wars II. So far way, WAY, better than JG1. Galvatron getting hammered on oil is very reminiscent of G1 proper.

But why are the Insectrons another good guy force? Didn't the production team get look at the Predacon symbol? It's right there!

So far the plots are more diverse than the previous shows. Very different from proper Beast Wars. Very much a kid's show. But I like it so far.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Beast Wars II

Just finished with Ep 10 of Beast Wars II. So far way, WAY, better than JG1. Galvatron getting hammered on oil is very reminiscent of G1 proper.

But why are the Insectrons another good guy force? Didn't the production team get look at the Predacon symbol? It's right there!

So far the plots are more diverse than the previous shows. Very different from proper Beast Wars. Very much a kid's show. But I like it so far.

The Japanese Beast Wars shows have always been much more interesting to me than the JG1 stuff.

Are they supposed to be in the same continuity as Beast Wars?

Looking it up on the wiki shows it to be set on a post apocalyptic Earth set thousands of years after Beast Machines. Minor spoilers for on on BWII, I guess.

So far ... I guess it could fit. I mean they make no mention of the Maximal Elders or the Tripredacus Council and I don't expect them to. Also no mention of the Maximals and Predacons being, at least technically, at peace. HOWEVER, I also know Beast Wars was butchered in translation. I don't know if any of that survived.

I already know Lio Convoy meets Optimus Primal. Viewing it I think the show's intention is that it's supposed to fit, being another team comprised of another set of Maximals fighting another set of Predacons.

I'm still only 1/4 in, but so far I think this is better than JG1. If only because the characters are more interesting. Victory is where things peaked, but the good guys got kinda bland there. Here they have more distinct personalities.

Edit:
How are the Jointrons Maximals!? They have Insectrons as a third "neutral" faction. This is a show actively fighting against the changes Beast Wars introduced to the franchise, I think. They certainly didn't go with the flow.

BWII and BW neo are in the same continuity as BW, but very loosely. Remember, these shows were made for young children, so continuity wasn't a high priority. I just find them to be a whole lot of fun. While BWII and Neo are supposedly "thousands of years in the future". It works better if they are running concurrent to what’s going on in BW.

Just in case this is a Spoiler Gaia is Earth. The writers of BW were very careful and purposefully avoided any discussion of what was going on during "present day" Earth (basically 300 years into the future), any ship that approached Earth from Cybertron was instantly trans warped back in time. I actually had a chance to ask Larry Ditillio (RIP) during BW initial run and all he said was "We don't talk about future earth, it’s a terrible place" . And that was it.

Additionally, the writers of BW, as you can expect, stated there was no communication with them and the writers of BW II/Neo. However, the writers of BWII/Neo had seen the first season of BW. The appearance of Primal (Convoy) in the BWII film is meant to be an explanation (from the BWII perspective) of where Primal was when his body was initially destroyed at the end of S1, before being transferred to a new body at the beginning of S2. This is where being concurrent with BW makes sense. However, to expect Gaia to change so radically in only 300 years is a bit of a stretch. Also, the fact that the current Cybertron/Maximals view Primal as a hero of legend, as opposed to a respected figure of their “current” time makes things problematic as well.
Some later manga series attempt to tie things up a bit, but still it’s not perfect. I just enjoy the shows for what they are.

Best Wars II
The Show

Just finished the series. All in all ... I liked it! Ok, look. It's not Beast Wars, but if you can enjoy a kid's comedy-first action series I think it's pretty good, all in all. The characters are memorable and, for the most part, are given enough to do to leave an impression. And the plots are more varied than previous episodes, making the experience more enjoyable overall.

Galvatron is one of my faves and it's interesting to see how he evolved from his G1 self. Because there are some traits that carry over. Namely that he's super powerful compared to other Decepticons and that he easily presents a threat to both sides when he gets out of control, especially early on. The best chaarcetr moment he has is waking up from an several-episodes-long-sleep and getting drunk on too-strong oil - attacking everyone in his path. I felt this was very true to TFs and the Galvatron name. But he isn't insane like G1, nor as happy.

The bad thing is ... they don't give him enough to do. Which is a shame since he's supposed to be the big bad guy! He doesn't come up with the plans, he doesn't fight Lio Convoy very often and he spends A LOT of time sleeping or wounded. And they always draw him with this same expression! I hate it when anime does this. Just because his toy has gritted teeth doesn't mean he can't open his jaw!

I also found the final battle underwhelming. There's no real interplay, no big fight. It kinda let me down this way. Oh, well.

The best character is Starscream. He's given the most to do out of everyone. It was actually really great seeing his backstabbing nature screw over the cons more than anything else.

But one big flaw of the show is it's somewhat obsessive and drifting focus. To explain: it spends a LOT of time on a group of characters, building them up, only to completely forget they exist! Honestly there's so many good guys! WAY too many good guys! The bad guys don't have drones or any real advantage. It makes Lio Convoy look kind of like a slacker, TBH. By the end he has this whole squad of Cybertrons and neutral-good characters (who still don't want to see their planet demolished) and I'm left scratching my head as to why they don't just attack the con's big, obvious base.

Still, I was entertained. I have to take it slow. Kids humor-first shows are like that sometimes and this is one of them.

The animation is also kind ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh sometimes.

The Meta - tell us you hate Beast Wars without telling us you hate Beast Wars

So this whole era was defined by Maximals VS Predacons. There was a bunch of new toys. New faction symbols. Not only does the show say "naw" to all that, but it make some changes that are bizarre.

The Predacon symbol is in the show. Not prominently, but it's there. And it's a bug head. But all the bugs? Neutral good guys or, later, the fun loving, goofy Tripredacus! There's only ONE actual bug on the Destron team! Weird choice.

Odder still are the inclusion of ancient molds here. Why are the G2 mold here as main bad guys? What is with the Seacons being here? Tripticon!? I get that Japan didn't get some of these molds before, but geez. It really fights against the entire brand refresh when the main bad guys are all G1-2 holdovers. They really are more Decepticons than Predacons (and the faction names do not change here either).

And, while Beast Wars had this whole post-G1 narrative about peace between Autobot and Decepticon where Maximals rules, BWII has none of that. It feels like the whole war never ended and this is just the latest chapter.

When watching the show it was tough to get past the meta at first. I wonder if kids found it confusing or if they just passively went with it?. The whole experience makes me wonder what Japan would make of a properly translated Beast Wars.

So, the meta. Try your best to ignore it. Enjoy the show for what it is. It has it's moments if you can get past some issues.

Hoo boy! This'll be a fun thread! Lots to talk about and get geeky.

*cracks knuckles*

Gauntlet101010 wrote:This series just can't be bothered with it's legacy characters. Everyone is either reduced to cartoonish buffoons or bland carboard. Optimus Prime is here to do absolutely nothing and then die in vain because Cybertron is destroyed shortly after. You'd think that would bother the TFs. You'd think. But it's never mentioned. In fact they have a base on Athenia.

To underscore the lack of care Rodimus, Kup, and Blur fly off to search for a new home for the Autobots. No, not in Skylynx or a shuttle. No, they fly like Superman! Arcee ... the less said about Arcee the better.

Yeah. Takara evidently cared more about advertising the new 1987 toy characters at the expense of really doing anything with the old guard.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:The Monsterbots were in all of one episode.

Two, actually. The Beastformers episode and the episode with the girl Papika.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Mars is destroyed! MARS! And, despite it being played up the episode prior, it never gets referenced afterwards.

It actually is brought up again in the final episode, but every single English subtitled release of the episode (as of this typing) has completely overlooked part of the Japanese dialogue where Fortress says that the Autobots are going to rebuild Mars after they depart from Earth.

That reminds me, which subbed release of these shows are you watching? The Headmasters, Masterforce, and Victory each had had three different subtitled versions: the unofficial fansubs made by TV-Nihon, the official UK DVD subtitles by Metrodome (which were also used for the Australian DVDs released by Madman), and the official US DVD subtitles by Shout! Factory (which are the worst ones to watch because those subs were rewritten by Hasbro to be inaccurate and unfaithful to what the Japanese dialogue was actually saying).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Masterforce. I think it's best to just pretend it's in it's own little continuity when watching it.

Despite there being an Autobot City (maybe three depending on how you count) nobody seems to remember the Autobots. Chromedome makes a cameo, but that's about it.

Yeah, it's basically presented as like a soft reboot that wants to have its cake and eat it too, being written as a standalone series but also wanting to be part of the preexisting greater JG1 continuity. Like, in Ginrai's second episode, Hawk, Diver, and Lander have to show him old newspaper clippings of Decepticon attacks from decades ago in order to explain to him who and what the Decepticons even are. Huh?

That said, however, it would, years later, be confirmed that Masterforce is set in the year 2020, nine years after The Headmasters and five years before Victory.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:The proper Decepticons are monsters most of the time who initially use zombies (of all things) while the Autobots pretend to be human and talk about going on dates. And then there are the proper humans who all get more attention.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Did you know the Firecons are in this show? As disposable fodder in a couple episodes? Such a waste! And, speaking of waste, Pirranacon is a real paper tiger. Ginrai literally tears through the Seacons every episode and hands the guy his ass. I thought this show was supposed to sell us toys! Where is the menace? They could have has 7 unique characters, but we barely get ONE in Turtler. And he mostly just growls angrily as he flees. Geez. They wasted Doubledealer too. Are they unable to plan these things out?

There's definitely some heavy Tokusatsu influence going on with this show, with those Destroid zombies, the Seacons, and the Sparkdash all taking inspiration from the various foot-soldier enemy grunts of Super Sentai and the like, while the main Decepticons serve as both the generals and "monsters-of-the-week" to the main "great ruler" boss of the villains, a common hierarchy of tokusatsu villain factions.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Victory is where I think they remembered they had to sell toys. It's a pity there's not much to work with here. Late era G1 ... Victory Saber and Deathsaurus are great, but you don't have that variety of product any more. I never liked Micromasters to start with (may be why the UT just didn't grab me).

By this point, the Japanese G1 toyline was getting smaller. Unlike the US toyline, there were no Micromasters sold in the 1989 portion of the Japanese toyline, despite some of them featuring in Victory. All of them would be held off from release in Japan until the following year in 1990, and all but one Micromaster team would be sold as Autobots instead of a more even split between both factions. So Victory didn't have a lot of toy characters to work with for that year, hence the smaller cast.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Victory was pretty good, as children's shows go. But, like Masterforce and Headmasters, it doesn't get inventive. We do get one episode where the base egts infiltrated and where the Deceticons try to use bugs to kill Star Saber. That's good. But it's all "steal energy, steal energy, steal energy!" Remember when Megatron decided to make New York into a new Cybertron because he didn't think he could get back to Cybertron? Or when the Autobots brainwashed Devestator to be an Autobot?

So, all in all, JG1 (minus Zone) has an increase in quality in terms of storytelling and animation. But it never got truly inventive. I wish it has asked some questions of itself.

Like it would have been good to know how much Ginrai identified himself with the human Ginrai. Have the human make a guest star in one episode maybe? Masterforce ends abruptly so we never know exactly how much the human minds are echoed into their former Transtectors. The Decepticon ones turn on their humans pretty quickly.

Sadly, this lack of depth and insightfulness seems to be a result of a certain mindset in Japan when it comes to anime about robots. To the Japanese, if it's a show where the robots are alive and characters in their own right, the show is for younger audiences and don't need to be too deep or complex. But if it's a show where the robots are non-living and operate through human pilots who are the show's characters instead of the robots (like with most Gundam series), then it's a show for older audiences and can be more mature and thought-provoking.

This is also partially related to why the Japanese dubs of Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Animated, and Prime all cranked up the wackiness to the eleven with adlibbing, fourth-wall breaks, and pop culture references, instead of staying faithful to the English dialogue of the source material.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I want to get to the UT. I feel like I missed out. I plan to watch it subbed (all of the Japanese stuff, so I'll miss out on Haiku Skybite).

Sky Byte isn't in the Unicron Trilogy.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Masterforce is good too, but be prepared for a very weird take on TFs.

Masterforce is my favorite of the three.

Victory was kinda boring to me until Liokaiser's introduction. Then it got good in its latter half.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Zone

WTF was this? Honestly, what was this???

Basically, the single episode of Zone was a short story set during the first-third of the larger Zone storyline, which was primarily told in the form of 12 story pages published in TV Magazine. The episode is set between the third and fourth story page (though, it wasn't released until three months after), with Victory Saber still leading the Autobots in the first three chapters, which served as a lead-up to the passing of the torch to Dai Atlas. So the episode isn't the proper beginning of the story.

The episode was also adapted from a single manga chapter, but with a few narrative differences between the two. As far as the cartoon continuity is concerned, the episode is the version of relevance.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:One day a alien being decided he wants to take over the universe, but the new Decepticon toys are all too lame to use (or maybe not made yet?) so he raids his older bro's old toy box in the basement and breaks out all his best toys. And then, because he's a very amateur customizer, slaps some new armor on them to make them "cooler". In the process he gets glue everywhere and they no longer transform.

This is where problems from the 1990 toyline came into play. While the US would get a line full of Action Masters and more Micromasters filling out the Autobot and Decepticon ranks, Japan would get a line full of just Micromasters, the three Powered Masters, and Metrotitan. And out of all of those, only Metrotitan and a single Micromaster team were Decepticons, meaning the rest of the line was made up of entirely Autobots.

And because the sole two Decepticon releases of this year weren't released until later in the year, the early Zone story pages and the episode had ZERO villain toys to make use of, and so had to make up Violengiguar as the series Big Bad and pull from previous Decepticon heavy hitters of years past to serve as his generals. It was a case of the toyline having no new villains available to use for the fiction of the time.

Eventually, Metrotitan and the one Decepticon Micromaster team would see release and be featured in the story pages, but they came too late to make it into the episode (and the same was true of the third Autobot Powered Master, Roadfire, who also wasn't in the episode).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I thought Black Zarak was dead!

He was. The name of this group of Decepticon generals is the "Nine Great Demon Generals", with the "demon" part implying that Violengiguar resurrected all of the ones that died previously. Black Zarak's official title in this group is "Evil Spirit General", further denoting his previously-dead nature.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Why bother with an eyepatch?

Because he be pirate-themed, matey! He has a mighty hook for a right hand, too, arrgh!

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Devestator finds the Zodiac energy deep within the Earth that was always there (don't question it!).

I don't. Because the larger Zone storyline established that every planet has its own Zodiac piece. Zodiac is basically the power of the cosmos itself, able to create entire celestial bodies.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Did he know where it was because he nearly drilled to the center of the planet that one time? That's what went through my mind when I watched this.

I always just figured he was told where to find it by Violengiguar.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:But I also know there's nothing more coming. And also there's not really any new Decepticons.

By this point, the JG1 manga and story pages pretty much became the primary JG1 fiction, in lieu of any further animated works. The Zone episode was a direct-to-video OVA in the vein of Scramble City, rather than a proper televised program. So Return of Convoy and Operation Combination are kinda shared by both the JG1 cartoon continuity and the separate JG1 manga continuity.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:But why are the Insectrons another good guy force? Didn't the production team get look at the Predacon symbol? It's right there!

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Edit:
How are the Jointrons Maximals!? They have Insectrons as a third "neutral" faction. This is a show actively fighting against the changes Beast Wars introduced to the franchise, I think. They certainly didn't go with the flow.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:[b]So this whole era was defined by Maximals VS Predacons. There was a bunch of new toys. New faction symbols. Not only does the show say "naw" to all that, but it make some changes that are bizarre.

The Predacon symbol is in the show. Not prominently, but it's there. And it's a bug head. But all the bugs? Neutral good guys or, later, the fun loving, goofy Tripredacus! There's only ONE actual bug on the Destron team! Weird choice.

Answering these three together: Basically, Takara wanted all of the organic beast toys in this series to be good guys, while the bad guys are all either vehicles, mechanical beasts, or cyborg beasts. The main theme of Beast Wars Second is "Beasts vs. Machines", with the Predacons constantly building fortresses and industrial facilities to exploit Planet Gaia of its energy, and the Maximals trying to stop them and preserve the planet's natural beauty. So all 'bots with organic beast modes, no matter what critter they are (mammal, insect, or reptile) are on the side of justice in Beast Wars Second.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Looking it up on the wiki shows it to be set on a post apocalyptic Earth set thousands of years after Beast Machines. Minor spoilers for on on BWII, I guess.

So far ... I guess it could fit. I mean they make no mention of the Maximal Elders or the Tripredacus Council and I don't expect them to. Also no mention of the Maximals and Predacons being, at least technically, at peace. HOWEVER, I also know Beast Wars was butchered in translation. I don't know if any of that survived.

I already know Lio Convoy meets Optimus Primal. Viewing it I think the show's intention is that it's supposed to fit, being another team comprised of another set of Maximals fighting another set of Predacons.

The relationship between JBW and the two American Beast Era cartoons is... complicated, to say the least.

In a nutshell, Second and Neo were originally supposed to be set concurrently with Beast Wars (with the common fan perception of the time being that they both took place before Beast Machines), but as both Second and Neo progressed, a number of glaring contradictions arose between them and both Beast Wars and Beast Machines, especially when Seasons 2-3 of the former and all of the latter finally got dubbed in Japanese. Namely, Beast Wars was said to take place "three centuries" into the future, while BWII was stated to take place "several tens of thousands of years" in the future.

When Takara finally started to take a good hard look at their massive JG1 continuity and tried to organize it all during the 2000s, they made the executive decision to lean into the contradictions and take them at face value, requiring Beast Wars Second and Neo to actually take place eons into the future long after Beast Machines instead of right before it.

There's much more to this story than that, and I'm currently still trying to gather all the necessary information that I need in order to properly tell the full story of this continuity conundrum on TFWiki, but that's the simplified version of it.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Galvatron is one of my faves and it's interesting to see how he evolved from his G1 self. Because there are some traits that carry over. Namely that he's super powerful compared to other Decepticons and that he easily presents a threat to both sides when he gets out of control, especially early on. The best chaarcetr moment he has is waking up from an several-episodes-long-sleep and getting drunk on too-strong oil - attacking everyone in his path. I felt this was very true to TFs and the Galvatron name. But he isn't insane like G1, nor as happy.

Of course, he also isn't the same person as his G1 namesake. He's a different character.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:The best character is Starscream. He's given the most to do out of everyone. It was actually really great seeing his backstabbing nature screw over the cons more than anything else.

I liked Starscream, and I also liked Scuba. Being this super-competent guy among a team of misfits who just goes with the flow and is a little introverted. It was kinda funny how he acted like this guy who tended to stick to the background but also got things done when no one else could. And he wasn't arrogant about it either. He kinda reminded me a bit of Animated Prowl, only not as fleshed out.

And I loved the evolving father-son dynamic between Lio Convoy and Lio Junior, gradually going from a father who never knew he had a son and couldn't risk his military career to actually be a father, to a dad gradually learning how to be a dad and ultimately becoming proud of his son and proud to acknowledge him as his son. It kinda made Lio Convoy one of the more "human" Transformer good guy leaders in that sense, and gave him a much-needed character flaw to overcome.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Odder still are the inclusion of ancient molds here. Why are the G2 mold here as main bad guys? What is with the Seacons being here? Tripticon!? I get that Japan didn't get some of these molds before, but geez. It really fights against the entire brand refresh when the main bad guys are all G1-2 holdovers. They really are more Decepticons than Predacons (and the faction names do not change here either).

Beast Wars Second was designed to be a filler line. Takara only made four new molds for the toyline (Lio Convoy, Galvatron, Moon, and the Tako Tank), while the rest were all recycled from preexisting lines. And since Takara wanted only the good guys to have organic beast modes, they needed to pull from G1, G2, and Machine Wars to have molds with mechanical altmodes for the bad guys, to go with the aforementioned "Beasts vs. Machines" theme of the line.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And, while Beast Wars had this whole post-G1 narrative about peace between Autobot and Decepticon where Maximals rules, BWII has none of that. It feels like the whole war never ended and this is just the latest chapter.

This is another reason both Second and Neo were placed after Beast Machines instead of before it. The Japanese dub of Beast Wars kept all references to the Maximals and Predacons being at peace with each other that were given in the original English version, so with the two being in direct conflict with each other in Second and Neo, those two shows had to be moved away from that peacetime to a different, post-peace, renewed wartime era.

Now, for the record, I do know BWII Galvy is not the same guy as G1 Galvy . When I'm talking about his evolution I'm talking about the meta. To see how the Galvatron character was looked at and updated by the writers, not how the G1 character evolved into the BWII character. As I'm doing these writeups I'll probably use language like that - how a character evolves - but I mean that strictly in terms of how it evolves in terms of how he's depicted or reinterpreted.

Some of these points are already known to me, but others aren't so much. Ok, I can see how BWII is "beasts VS machines" ... although, IMO, it still feels out of place. BW reinvents so much and the response - even out of a filler line - is to go right back to some old molds. I feel like I could understand it more if they had, at least, used more mechanical beasts like the Dinobots or the inner robots for the Beast Pretenders. And the cyborgs ... like, they don't make sense. How does the plane become a cyborg wolf that flies? You know? It seems random in a bad way. It seems like the more natural evolution would have been a wolf character that was remade.

I get that BWII is a commercial-driving show primarily, but there's a good way to do that and BWII didn't go that route. The meta really gets in the show's way. It does have it's moments, though. I'll never hear "Roger!" the same way again.

I really wonder how Japanese fans would feel if they encounter a faithful translation of BW and Prime. Do you know if there's a blog or a reddit post or something? I searched, but couldn't find any. During all of this I did hear it was made into a self-parody. Which must work for them! I mean it's still going on strong over there. And BW led right into the Japan-led UT. But I can't really imagine getting as drawn into TFs if they were all so kiddified as what I've heard BW was. It's one reason I just couldn't get into RiD or the UT back in the day.

Anyway, I'm into Beast Wars Neo. So far so good right now! I've heard it was better than II and the rumors were true.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Now, for the record, I do know BWII Galvy is not the same guy as G1 Galvy . When I'm talking about his evolution I'm talking about the meta. To see how the Galvatron character was looked at and updated by the writers, not how the G1 character evolved into the BWII character. As I'm doing these writeups I'll probably use language like that - how a character evolves - but I mean that strictly in terms of how it evolves in terms of how he's depicted or reinterpreted.

Got it. But I think the decision to name him "Galvatron" was based more on something much simpler: the fact that the name "Megatron" had already been reused for the main villain of BW, and they needed another name for BWII's villain, so they just took the name of the next G1 leader after Megatron (even though, yes, those two were the same guy).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Some of these points are already known to me, but others aren't so much. Ok, I can see how BWII is "beasts VS machines" ... although, IMO, it still feels out of place. BW reinvents so much and the response - even out of a filler line - is to go right back to some old molds. I feel like I could understand it more if they had, at least, used more mechanical beasts like the Dinobots or the inner robots for the Beast Pretenders.

Yeah, it really illustrates the different mindsets that were had about Transformers between Hasbro and Takara at the time. On Hasbro's side, G2 was such a failure that they basically let Kenner go wild with completely reinventing the brand into something wholly new and different from what all had come before. Whereas Takara just treated BW as simply the next iteration of the same brand that Transformers had always been.

This is not only evident in Takara's reuse of molds from G1, G2, and Machine Wars along with the very-different contemporary BW molds, but also in the fact that Takara opted not to distinguish the Maximals and Predacons from the Autobots and Decepticons like Kenner had done, instead simply referring to them all as just "Cybertrons" and "Destrons" despite the new insignias for each. This decision also seems to have stemmed from Takara's initial belief that Optimus Primal and Megatron of BW were actually the same individuals as Optimus Prime and Megatron of G1, complete with Takara even giving Primal the same Japanese name as Prime, "Convoy".

Of course, Kenner originally did the same for the first Primal and Megatron toys, treating them as the same guys as their G1 namesakes in both their original toy bios and pack-in comic, but then Mainframe came along and did away with that by doing their own thing with the BW cartoon. Takara, however, seemingly didn't get that memo soon enough, as they likewise characterized BW Convoy and Megatron as G1 Convoy and Megatron in all of the Japanese toy bios of their pre-Transmetal Season 1 toys.

When the cartoon's first season was dubbed into Japanese, however, it remained ambiguous on the matter of whether "Convoy" and Megatron were or were not the same characters as their G1 namesakes; the most it did do was refer to both by the same lofty leadership titles as their namesakes, "Supreme Commander" and "Emperor of Destruction", respectfully. This went on to influence the leaders of BWII and Neo, similarly referring to both Lio Convoy and Big Convoy as Supreme Commanders and Galvatron and Magmatron as Emperors of Destruction.

Though, thanks to the aforementioned ambiguity of the Japanese dub of BW Season 1, that allowed the Japanese dub of Seasons 2-3 (Beast Wars Metals) to make it clear that the two were actually not the same Convoy and Megatron of G1, aligning with the original English version. But BWII came before all that, and so was made when Takara was still thinking that BW was just the next chapter of G1, so to speak, rather something that was actually supposed to be very far removed from it (albeit, still occupying the same universe, of course).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And the cyborgs ... like, they don't make sense. How does the plane become a cyborg wolf that flies? You know? It seems random in a bad way. It seems like the more natural evolution would have been a wolf character that was remade.

Yeah, for that, I got nothing.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I really wonder how Japanese fans would feel if they encounter a faithful translation of BW and Prime. Do you know if there's a blog or a reddit post or something? I searched, but couldn't find any. During all of this I did hear it was made into a self-parody. Which must work for them! I mean it's still going on strong over there. And BW led right into the Japan-led UT. But I can't really imagine getting as drawn into TFs if they were all so kiddified as what I've heard BW was. It's one reason I just couldn't get into RiD or the UT back in the day.

As it turns out, the Japanese did get an official release of the original English version of Beast Wars. When the show was released on DVD in Japan, the English version was included as a second audio track, complete with Japanese subtitles included for the English version. So the Japanese got both their version and our version officially in dual-audio. And the same thing later happened again for the Japanese DVD release of Beast Machines (Beast Wars Returns).

As for Prime, well, because that show was so visually edited for its Japanese release, there's no way its DVDs could have had dual-audio. But, at the time that that show was firt airing, the Internet had enabled Japanese viewers to watch the English version online at places like Nico Nico Video, so those in Japan who wished to see the show in it original format (and the third season "Beast Hunters" that never aired in Japan at all) were able to.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Anyway, I'm into Beast Wars Neo. So far so good right now! I've heard it was better than II and the rumors were true.

Good luck. Neo was a slog for me to get through on my first watch, up until the final arc that was like a much-needed shot in the arm.

Oh no! That doesn't bode well. Well, I have a pretty high tolerance for nonsense, so I hope I like it well enough.

(BTW, I was watching BWII as I was rewatching the original Beast Wars and Machines with my wife so that era is very fresh in my mind).

I have to admit seeing Big Convoy in action is weird when I have had Nemesis Prime in my collection for so long. Just on display staring at me since I like the toy so much. But the meta isn't getting in the own way, though. Unlike most of these others shows I'm not left wondering why certain decisions were made and having that interfere with my enjoyment. (I mean I KNOW why, but still). At least, not yet.

I didn't know that Japan thought that OP and Megs were the same as their G1 counterparts, even in the show. I guess the toy bios must have really confused them .... or they didn't care too much. That explains their attitude towards Primal in BWII's movie.

On the DVDs having English tracks - It's good they get to experience these shows as they were meant to be experienced. While dubbing can produce some interesting results I feel like it can be taken WAY too far. But that still leaves me wondering what the Japanese fans think of the original if they grew up with the dubbed version. I can only compare it with my experience with Sailor Moon - when you find out how much was censored it makes you really curious to watch the original. However my wife actually prefers the original dub (!!!) because she's so attached to the music (although we only watched Crystal, not the original anime).

Of the Japanese-only TF shows what would your ranking be? It seems like they've only gotten better to me. Except Zone, but that one's an anomaly.

Masterforce has some good ideas, but it fails to capitalize on them. I understood that the Seacons were meant to be their mindless drones, and it makes sense that they're "Putties", but they never even transform on their own. And, even if they're treated better in Neo, the same is true there too. Kinda weird, TBH. And the Firecons are the same. They don't have that many villains, so it seems wasteful to just toss them in as disposable trash baddies. Even if I know that they're meant to be foot soldiers I still think their overall treatment was a mistake. I would have liked it more if Turtler were put on a more even footing on his own - could transform and hold his own - before merging with his team. I just feel the whole thing could have been done better even while keeping the footsoldier / drone concept.

And you have Doubledealer, a potentially interesting character who is just utterly wasted. All the potential of a spy, or even a double agent, just gone in his first appearance. Even Punch got to milk his spy potential more. And then you have the early magical influence that just disappears. It was odd, don't get me wrong. But it could have been the Decepticon Pretender's thing in the show itself.

Ironically that's why I liked Victory more. Less story overall ... less story to get wrong! Fewer characters overall ... fewer characters to get wrong! The simple tone helps narrow down the focus to what the show's actually good at rather than aiming high and missing because they haven't thought things through.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Oh no! That doesn't bode well. Well, I have a pretty high tolerance for nonsense, so I hope I like it well enough.

Then again, I thought Victory was boring in its first half, and you seemed to enjoy it just fine. Likewise, you liked BWII a lot, and that one took me a bit to get into as well, since its first half was divided into mini-arcs that advertised different character groups, but which didn't move the plot forward in any way until Lio Junior showed up. So, who knows? You might enjoy Neo in ways that I didn't.

I can get into more about what made Neo a hard sit for me later, as I don't want to spoil anything about it for you. So I'll wait until after you've seen more it, until after you've seen at least the first half of it or so.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I didn't know that Japan thought that OP and Megs were the same as their G1 counterparts, even in the show. I guess the toy bios must have really confused them .... or they didn't care too much. That explains their attitude towards Primal in BWII's movie.

Yeah, it's mostly the toy bios that insinuated that they were the same guys as their G1 namesakes. Like I said, the Japanese dub of BW Season 1 remained ambiguous on that matter, and that ambiguity saved them when it came time to finally dub Seasons 2-3 and reveal the G1 Optimus and Megatron sleeping aboard the Ark as separate characters.

Here's what the Japanese toy bios said:

C-1 Convoy (Gorilla)
Cybertron / Supreme Commander
Convoy became a robot gorilla to allow his body to adapt to the new planet's environment. Although his appearance may have changed, he is still the same heroic leader confronting injustice and his enemies.

C-6 Convobat (Bat)
Cybertron / Amazon Warrior
The gallant Convoy fought a deadly battle with Megatron in the Amazon. To protect the freedom of all sentient beings he transformed!! “Megatron must be stopped!!”

VS-S1 Convobat (Bat) (special CD-ROM red version)
Cybertron / Amazon Warrior
Trailer trucks are generally associated with the famous Commander Convoy. This time however, to do battle with Megatron, he chose the form of a bat so he could take to the sky with incredible aerial dexterity.

D-1 Megatron (Tyrannosaurus)
Destron / Emperor of Destruction
Megatron’s ambition is to conquer the universe; at the same time he plans the total annihilation of the Cybertrons. Prosper or perish...this is the Destron way!!

D-6 Megalligator (Alligator)
Destron / Amazon Warrior
This is a temporary form Megatron took when he fought a vicious battle against Convoy in the Amazon. Prosper or perish...this is the way of Megatron!! “Be prepared Convoy!!”

VS-S1 Megalligator (Alligator) (special CD-ROM purple version)
Destron / Amazon Warrior
Megatron, the Emperor of Destruction, upgraded his Walther P-38 Gun Robo form. Scanning an alligator he takes on a more ferocious appearance!!

Then, in the first catalog for the BWII toys (which came out before the anime began), Optimus Primal and Megatron were both depicted as high-ranking officials who had the authority to grant Lio Convoy and Galvatron their respective positions of leadership. This is at odds with how, in the English version of BW, Primal was just the lowly captain of a science vessel while Megatron was a wanted criminal.





In one chapter of the BWII manga, Optimus Primal also guest-starred, in which he was again depicted as a high-ranking official, this time being a member of the military council that operated on Cybertron, and was given a bio at the end of the chapter that read like so:

A fierce fighter who has been fighting the Destron army for thousands of years. He is also a member of the military council that bestows the title of Convoy. He was said to have disappeared while on a mission to search for Energon...?

The "thousands of years" part only makes sense if he were meant to be the original Convoy/Optimus Prime, since Primal was supposed to be very inexperienced when it came to actual combat leadership and warfare.

And, of course, you've already mentioned how the BWII treated him as a "legendary Supreme Commander" of renowned history. The movie likewise had Galvatron try to summon a Megatron whom he referred to as "the greatest and most vicious legendary Transformer in history." This grandiose description would make far more sense for G1 Megatron than BW Megatron at the time of the movie's release. But since Primal was so revered in that movie when he ought to have not been, it was likely that Galvatron's description of "Megatron" was in reference to BW Megatron having been considered the same person as G1 Megatron at the time by Takara.

And yet, I just find that whole notion hilarious even without "The Agenda" having not yet reached Japan at the time. Because, in the Japanese dub of BW, Megatron is so wildly different from not only his English David Kaye-voiced version, but also from G1 Megatron in either language. Seizō Katō voiced G1 Megatron rather similarly to Frank Welker, only sounding much older like a grumpy grandpa. Whereas Shigeru Chiba's BW Megatron was a total goofball. An off-the-wall flamboyant madman who was super wacky and energetic. Think like an evil version of Binky the Clown from Garfield & Friends. There is no way he could have ever been the same guy as G1 Megatron, no matter how much Takara believed him to be prior to the release of Beast Wars Metals. It really is a good thing that BW Seasons 2-3 eventually set things right and forced Takara to realize what was up.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:On the DVDs having English tracks - It's good they get to experience these shows as they were meant to be experienced. While dubbing can produce some interesting results I feel like it can be taken WAY too far. But that still leaves me wondering what the Japanese fans think of the original if they grew up with the dubbed version.

From what I've heard, Japanese kids who grew up with the BW dub LOVED it and thought it was hilarious. When the later War For Cybertron Trilogy cartoon was released on Netflix, the Japanese dub of that show actually brought back the original Japanese voices of Primal and Megatron, Takehito Koyasu and Shigeru Chiba, respectively. And Japanese kids who grew up with the Japanese dub of Beast Wars were actually saddened that Primal and Megatron didn't adlib and make jokey dialogue like they did in the BW dub.

But, I feel like the whole reason the Japanese DVDs of BW and BM included in the English version was because of TakaraTomy writer and toy designer Hirofumi Ichikawa, who is a known fan of English Transformers fiction. He and fellow fan Fumihiko Akiyama were the writers of Beast Wars Universe, a Japanese guidebook released back in 2000 that was all about the English version of Beast Wars, which allowed Japan to get a better understanding of the original English version before the DVDs came out.

Apparently, the whole reason that the Japanese dub of BW wasmade so wacky in the first place was because of its director, Yoshikazu Iwanami, having gained experience in making wacky dubs after having previously done so for the Japanese dub of the 90's X-Men cartoon, which likewise took an originally-serious US cartoon and made it just as silly in Japan. And yet, the success of that dub led Iwanami to do the same for the Japanese dubs of Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Animated, Prime, and Cyberverse.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I can only compare it with my experience with Sailor Moon - when you find out how much was censored it makes you really curious to watch the original. However my wife actually prefers the original dub (!!!) because she's so attached to the music (although we only watched Crystal, not the original anime).

To be fair, the DiC dub music was pretty good, if also very repetitive. But Crystal's music is completely unlike the original anime's Japanese music, so it's not really a fair comparison.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Of the Japanese-only TF shows what would your ranking be? It seems like they've only gotten better to me. Except Zone, but that one's an anomaly.

Out of just The Headmasters, Masterforce, Victory, Second, Neo, and Car Robots... Masterforce and Car Robots are my favorites.

Though, for Car Robots, I actually cannot decide if I like its original Japanese version more or less than I like its English "Robots in Disguise" dub, as the two are fairly different and feel like they're trying serve different purposes to me. Especially since Robots in Disguise was dubbed to be the first hard reboot non-G1 continuity with its own new Optimus Prime and Megatron, while Car Robots was instead the final cartoon installment of JG1/JBW with its own new leaders Fire Convoy and Gigatron.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Masterforce has some good ideas, but it fails to capitalize on them. I understood that the Seacons were meant to be their mindless drones, and it makes sense that they're "Putties", but they never even transform on their own. And, even if they're treated better in Neo, the same is true there too. Kinda weird, TBH. And the Firecons are the same. They don't have that many villains, so it seems wasteful to just toss them in as disposable trash baddies. Even if I know that they're meant to be foot soldiers I still think their overall treatment was a mistake. I would have liked it more if Turtler were put on a more even footing on his own - could transform and hold his own - before merging with his team. I just feel the whole thing could have been done better even while keeping the footsoldier / drone concept.

Yeah, Masterforce really wanted to lean into the theme of "Man, Gods, and Devils", using as many of the 1988 animalistic Decepticon toys as possible as more like demons instead of persons, to make them feel more inhuman and otherworldly, as if they were literal monsters from Hell. Their master's even a self-styled "Destron god" named "Devil Z", giving him a kind of Satan-esque vibe.

Giga and Mega were meant to be like evil counterparts of Adam and Eve, the first human Decepticons who would usher in bringing more humans to their cause, to create a sort of "Decepticon family" of evil humans (Devil Z's original plan was to rule over humanity and turn them all to the side of evil, up until he changed his mind when he deemed humans too flawed and unworthy of existence, and so decided to simply wipe them all out instead, which is what led to Giga beginnging to reconsider his loyalty to his master). This is why the Godmasters and Headmaster Juniors got so much more focus than the non-human Decepticons.

In Japan, especially back in the 80s, villain characters were always viewed as less important than the hero characters in children's anime. Because the Japanese wanted the heroes to be good influences that the young viewers would like more than the villains. When Transformers first came out, it was seen as an anomaly by having so many villain toys in addition to all its hero toys, as most Japanese toyline were very light on villain toys. This is also why Zone had only two Decepticon toy releases in its entire 1990 toyline, and why Return of Convoy had ZERO Decepticon toys in 1991. "Bad guys don't sell" was the mantra Japan lived by, and it even continues somewhat to this day, with modern-day Super Sentai toylines having little-to-no villain toys whatsoever while Power Rangers kept/keeps making as many bad guy toys as it wants/wanted.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And you have Doubledealer, a potentially interesting character who is just utterly wasted. All the potential of a spy, or even a double agent, just gone in his first appearance. Even Punch got to milk his spy potential more.

To be fair, Clouder did get the Autobot Base completely blown up by the Decepticons in his first appearance. That's no small feat.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And then you have the early magical influence that just disappears. It was odd, don't get me wrong. But it could have been the Decepticon Pretender's thing in the show itself.

Chōkon Power was pretty magical, and both the Godmasters and Devil Z kept using that all the way up to the end of the series.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Ironically that's why I liked Victory more. Less story overall ... less story to get wrong! Fewer characters overall ... fewer characters to get wrong! The simple tone helps narrow down the focus to what the show's actually good at rather than aiming high and missing because they haven't thought things through.

Still could have used more insert song variety than just playing the same theme song over and over again during every episode.

Chōkon Power is more like Ki from Dragonball than magic which can animate the dead or do any number of other things. If it's counted as a form of magic we can chalk it up there with the series just not being inventive enough. I mean there's so much you can do if you open that door. But they open the door with summoning an army of the dead and, I guess, a literal devil and then it just is this energy power they use to power up. And that's it.

I mean if Devil Z can turn humans into robots what if the Pretenders actually wanted to be real humans? What if the Decepticons of this series lost what made them robots and became true demons - where would that leave them? But the series doesn't broach these questions. And I feel frustrated because even Seaspray did become human for one episode. It's a question a less serialised series probably would have asked. But even at the end they all just peace out. And Ginrai (the human) doesn't even cameo in Victoy to say goodbye to Ginrai (the robot). So I feel frustrated. There are storytelling opportunities they just let slip through their fingers.

For me, what can win me over a somewhat flawed story are character moments. That's why I can appreciate BWII even though Lio Convoy could have probably organized a strike force to beat up the Decepticons after Tripredacus joined the group.

Galvatron looks so weird with some other expression on his face after seeing him with a perpertual growl. Better! But weird.

I guess I can understand missing the comedy of JBW if that's what sucked you in as a kid. I didn't know that J X-Men was also redubbed as a comedy. I woulda hated that as that was my intro to the X-Men in general, lol!

I didn't consider the personality switch from J G1 Mega to J BW Megs. Leftover Galvatron mania maybe? He got blown up as Something Megatron after merging with Dark Nova or something. Can't have been good for the poor guy.

Does this mean the English versions of these properties are the canon ones?

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Chōkon Power is more like Ki from Dragonball than magic which can animate the dead or do any number of other things. If it's counted as a form of magic we can chalk it up there with the series just not being inventive enough. I mean there's so much you can do if you open that door. But they open the door with summoning an army of the dead and, I guess, a literal devil and then it just is this energy power they use to power up. And that's it.

Interestingly, the nature of Chokon Power was later explored a little more in the Legends manga, wherein it was revealed that Tenchokon (the power of the heavens) is actually Zodiac, and Chichokon (the power of the Earth) is actually... well, Angolmois Energy, as per its original depiction in BWII as the divine life energy of Planet Gaia. But... *sigh* that complicates some things that will later be brought up in Beast Wars Neo, but I'll let you get through that series first before I say anything more on the matter (again, I don't wanna spoil anything for ya).

As for Jinchokon (the power of humanity), its true nature hasn't been as explored, but there is something at the end of Car Robots that may be of relevance to it. But again, no spoilers from me.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I mean if Devil Z can turn humans into robots what if the Pretenders actually wanted to be real humans? What if the Decepticons of this series lost what made them robots and became true demons - where would that leave them? But the series doesn't broach these questions. And I feel frustrated because even Seaspray did become human for one episode. It's a question a less serialised series probably would have asked. But even at the end they all just peace out. And Ginrai (the human) doesn't even cameo in Victoy to say goodbye to Ginrai (the robot). So I feel frustrated. There are storytelling opportunities they just let slip through their fingers.

There was one thing that both Masterforce and Victory did go into a bit on the disadvantage of Godmasters becoming fully robotic and losing their human element. When Devil Z made Hydra and Buster full robotic, and when the other Godmaster transtectors all became living robots no longer bonded to humans, they all lost their ability to tap into and utilize Jinchokon. When in the case of least Hydra and Buster their Jinchokon was replaced by Devil Z's own Devil Power, God Ginrai's loss of Jinchokon is what contributed to his fatal defeat by Deathsaurus that led to his being rebuilt into Victory Leo. Without the human aspect, Godmasters are made one-third weaker.

As for why Ginrai the human didn't appear in Victory, at the time the series came out, it wasn't clear as to how far into the future Victory was set. For all anyone knew, it could have been at a point when human Ginrai had already been long dead of old age. It wasn't until years later that Victory was officially confirmed to be in 2025, and decades later that it was decided to have Masterforce simply be only five years before Victory. And, of course, no one making these shows at the time expected anyone to be picking apart these shows some 30 years after they'd come and gone.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:For me, what can win me over a somewhat flawed story are character moments. That's why I can appreciate BWII even though Lio Convoy could have probably organized a strike force to beat up the Decepticons after Tripredacus joined the group.

Tripledacus (pronounced like "Triple Ducks").

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Galvatron looks so weird with some other expression on his face after seeing him with a perpertual growl. Better! But weird.

Hehe, he's basically like "What if the Ninja Turtles had no other expressions besides the ones of their toys?"

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I guess I can understand missing the comedy of JBW if that's what sucked you in as a kid. I didn't know that J X-Men was also redubbed as a comedy. I woulda hated that as that was my intro to the X-Men in general, lol!

Yeah, finding out that it also happened to that show frustrated me upon first learning about it.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I didn't consider the personality switch from J G1 Mega to J BW Megs. Leftover Galvatron mania maybe? He got blown up as Something Megatron after merging with Dark Nova or something. Can't have been good for the poor guy.

That's another thing. Japanese G1 Galvatron was basically voiced exactly the same as Japanese G1 Megatron. Unlike how Welker switched up his voice in the English version to a higher pitched maniacal one, Kato didn't change his voice at all. So Galvatron's insanity was less pronounced in the Japanese version, coming across as just an increased temper than not.

In The Battlestars, Dark Nova revived Galvatron as Super Megatron, then Ultra Megatron, and then forced a fusion with him into the Star Giant. Then, Japanese G2 saw Megatron's body recovered from the destroyed Star Giant and, after one more recovery in which his sanity circuits were finally repaired, he basically lost all of his villainous malice and decided to finally make peace with his enemies. Optimus and Megatron formed the Cybertron Alliance together as co-leaders.

But then, one of Megatron's subordinates who had been there with him during his recovery and had become close enough to him for Megatron to call him a friend, gets gunned down and murdered by human soldiers who had remained skeptical of the Cybertron Alliance, having not forgotten all the atrocities Megatron and the Decepticons had committed in the past. The murder of his friend outraged Megatron and both he and Optimus disagreed on how to proceed with this matter, to the point of Megatron declaring war once again, but this time not out of malice, greed, or villainy, but out of Megatron's belief that true peace could only be achieved by force.

There were lots more adventures after that, but in the end, G1 Megatron was long past his phase of true villainy and insanity. While BW Megatron in the Japanese dub was practically a Looney Tune.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Does this mean the English versions of these properties are the canon ones?

Of the Transformers shows? Well, each dub is in a different continuity. The Japanese dub of Beast Wars and Beast Machines (goofy rewrites and all) are part of the larger Japanese G1 cartoon continuity, but not the English versions.

Likewise, the Japanese dub of the G1 episode "Call of the Primitives" even had a line of dialogue that was altered from the original English version, a line of dialogue that was, years later, used as the foundation for a massive retcon that introduced a version of Primus into the Japanese G1 cartoon universe. And it was only doable because of that one line being rewritten for the Japanese version of "Call of the Primitives". Going by the original English version of the dialogue, said retcon wouldn't have been as doable.

I know it's TriPledacus, but I'm calling him TriPredacus because it sounds way cooler. Don't care if I'm wrong!

I feel like the decision not to include Ginrai (the human) in Victory due to timeline reasons is a cop out. They could have easily just decided how far along they wanted it to be at the time. But they didn't do so. And I think, were I a child watching the shows at the time, I woulda felt cheated out of that interaction. Maybe I'm just weird, but I did think deeply about my shows and appreciated lore. The lore drops in G1 were some of my favorite episodes! I have to believe there are Japanese children out there with the same heart as me.

The end of MF leaves so much up in the air in terms of the relationship between the new Head / Powermaster-less TFs and their humans. You'd think they would be an almost seamless transition from one to the other, but the Junior Decepticons turn on their owners right away and even Overlord gives Ginrai a wicked grin after Mega and Giga are ejected.

You know, I never thought about the loss of Ginrai's Powermaster being a factor in his fight against Deathsaurus, but that's a really good point. But, then ... does that mean Overlord is that much weaker than God Ginrai after the end of MF? Because he had two Powermasters to compete against Ginrai's whole setup before and now he just has himself while Ginrai still has his trailer and Godbomber.

It's cool that they expanded on their Ki energy idea a bit more in Legends, even if it's rather late in the game and definitely a retcon. Chichokon being Angolmois energy which is the power of the Earth makes sense I guess. You know they never put that back after the end of II. Guess EarthGaia is ****. Actually Big Convoy just left Tripredacus on Gaia when he stopped by. They're probably better off.

Maybe I ought to make a brief stop be Robot Masters before checking out the UT. It's a little out of viewing order, but their depiction of BW Megatron has to line up more with J BW Megatron and I'm not gonna dive into watching that whole show just to experience that (if I can even find it online).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I know it's TriPledacus, but I'm calling him TriPredacus because it sounds way cooler. Don't care if I'm wrong!

But he's not a cool character, he's a racist silly character.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:It's cool that they expanded on their Ki energy idea a bit more in Legends, even if it's rather late in the game and definitely a retcon. Chichokon being Angolmois energy which is the power of the Earth makes sense I guess. You know they never put that back after the end of II. Guess EarthGaia is ****.

You'll see.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Maybe I ought to make a brief stop be Robot Masters before checking out the UT. It's a little out of viewing order, but their depiction of BW Megatron has to line up more with J BW Megatron and I'm not gonna dive into watching that whole show just to experience that (if I can even find it online).

RobotMasters's primarily fiction was the online manga and catalog manga. Its two-episode OVAs were like brief advertisements for the main fiction, hyper-abridged adaptations of only some of the manga's events.

Sabrblade wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Anyway, I'm into Beast Wars Neo. So far so good right now! I've heard it was better than II and the rumors were true.

Good luck. Neo was a slog for me to get through on my first watch, up until the final arc that was like a much-needed shot in the arm.

Man you both have been having quite the conversation. Sorry ive been so busy tending to..."less fun" matters. But anyway...

I heard someone make a very amusing observation. They compared BW Neo (at least the Maximal faction) to Police Academy... . On some level I get it. But I do agree, when I watch BW Neo, I usually only watch the first 2 episodes, episode 6, and then 24-35. Whereas with BWII I really do enjoy the entire series.

Well, I'm beginning to see why that may be so. The characters aren't quite as colorful as II. And the episodes are getting a bit one-note. I'm on episode 9 now.

So far no villain has really topped Starscream. Although DNavi is fun. She can only be compared to the Diagnostic Droid in Beast Machines.

But I'm not distracted by the off meta choices of II like using old molds, the Insectron faction, or sidelining Galvatron. Magmatron is just another armchair general. It's too bad as he doesn't really impress me yet, but there's still time.

When I'm looking at these I'm very mindful that I'm watching a kid's-first toy-driven cartoon. From another country no less. So I'm very aware I'm not the target audience. I'm going pretty easy on all of these series.

Edit:
at episode 12. Almost halfway done. And at the end of each Vector Sigma makes Big Convoy say a moral or something out of his character. It's actually becoming a bit creepy. Like ... get your own body if you want to talk so bad! Seriously. No other leader needed your help. If you wanted a more personable guy maybe you should've picked some other Convoy to lead your cadets or something. Maybe the Matrix is like the Venom symbiote in this show. Just comes with a bit of baggage. Maybe it's one of those things you don't really want.

Edit 2:
At episode 22. So Neo has a stretch of episode where they obsess, and then forget, about new toys they want to showcase. Here they have one-off episodes where a TF makes an appearance and then just goes away. There are drawbacks to both. I kind of miss the character development, such as it was, in Neo. But I also don't feel like the Cybertrons could just beat up the Destrons at any given point either, which is probably better. Space is a big place. You can meet people and then never see them again.

So far none of the one-offs are making an impression on me. They're fine for what they are, I guess. It kind of reminds me of the structure of the Pokemon tv show. I'm just a bit old for it.

Edit 3:
Just finished episode 29 with it's Unicron backstory stuff. I already knew Anglomois energy was Unicron's essence, so no surprises there, but I did NOT know about all the crazy retcons.

I ... [/i]guess[/i] the climax of the movie could be interpreted as Cybertrons from across the universe teaming up to take Unicron down. Maybe with the fullness of time distorting it a bit? I mean the Junkions were there and the Decepticons also scrambled.

I don't get how Roddy blowing Unicron up could seal it in Earth. Hey, why not seal that guy up in your own homeworld? Or even some other, uninhabited world, maybe? Some world without a third party not involved in your billion year war? But what about when Screamer revived his head? How does that work?

It also retcons BW Galvatron's motivations from being "peace through strength" to being "a bulwark against Unicron ever coming back" and giving the Destrons a new homeworld (Dinosaur) which Unicron took a bite out of. I ... guess, at some point in the past Megatron made them a homeworld? But then forgot about Unicron after the guy took a chomp out of it? Maybe it takes terrible, so he took just one bite and left? Or maybe it's a Tick sort of situation where he just wanted a snack. Regardless these retcons spoil what was a pretty beautiful way of flowing Unicron into the series for the first time since the movie properly (the Vox holigrom not being Unicron himself). You don't need a new Destron homeworld to have them be terrified of this planet eating Transformer.

I wonder if the Japanese continuity ever retconned Anglomois energy to make sense with the events of the movie...

And where are the other guys from II? They were all there with Lio Convoy, but now nothing. Although it's kind of depressing that the hero from the last series is just dead here. I guess that tracks given TF's history. Kind of skips Lio Junio's whole "succession" arc, but whatever. You'll never be more than a part of Magnaboss, Junior! Well, maybe in a future episode of Neo. I'm not quite done with it yet,

Beast Wars Neo

Finally done with Beast Wars Neo. And, kinda sorta, the Beast era! Car Robots is sort of midway between Beast and the return of vehicles. I mean ... the main bad guys are the Predacons, so. Kinda counts?

Did I like it? Well ... yes. But I'm grading it on a curve. They could have trimmed a lot of fat. Done a lot more. It had some interesting ideas, but the execution held them back.

After seeing it all I think it's better than 2 - mainly because of the way II was structured and how II's toyline was bits and scraps from other toylines. That really interfered with my enjoyment. In II you had arcs about how important the Insectrons / Seacons / Jointrons were and then they just dropped off the show with only the Seacons getting a proper goodbye. And those guys never even bothered to transform into their individual robot modes?

Neo handles it's filer characters differently. They meet them, usually one at a time, on a different planet and then leave them be at the end of the episode. Very Pokemon or Digimon like. I really thought they'd make a comeback for the end arc, but only one did for one episode. Kind of a letdown. But at least I never felt like there were too many good guys or why nobody called anyone for backup. In that way it's better.

But in some ways it's worse. I don't think there's any real standouts in terms of characters. And that's where TF shows shine. Like just about all Japan's TF shows I feel it isn't inventive with it's plot. Each episode is very much the same until the end arc. At this point I must compare it to Beast Wars proper - a show that knew how to build stakes and introduce long-running new characters. This show could have really benefitted from a "mid season finale". Something that could have paid off Magmatron's and a few one-off characters.

That said the show made me want the Blendtrons even more. Of course, as a TF fan, I've known about them as Unicron's minions, but they're WAY more powerful than his G1 guys. But they're so expensive to get. In retrospect Kingdom would have been a great opportunity to make new versions of them or to give them a re-release with the Unicron mania going on at the time. I think they even re-released Big Convoy at the time, right?

The characters

Of the Maximals I think my favorite is Break. I like his delinquent attitude and still have some love for the original Naruto anime. I like the "fiery spirit" contrasted with his penguin form. It's a fun juxtaposition.

Mach Kick is also a breath of fresh air bringing a much needed note of discord in the Maximal camp. Everyone just gets along too much! But he shows up and rocks the boat. At least for a few episodes.

After all is said and done, D Navi remains the best among the Predacon camp. I love her put-upon attitude. She and the Diagnostic Droid from Beast Machines would make great friends. There's something about middle management types in action shows that I kinda like. Just keep changing your name and give all the other soldiers a hard time, D-Navi!

Sadly the rest just kinda coast on looks. Dead End being the best looking I guess.

Magmatron was disappointing. We never get a good fight between him and Big Convoy. He's just another armchair general. Ironically he seems the same personality-wise as BW Galvatron, except he's given even less to do! I kinda understand where the writers were coming from - not wanting to ruin his mystique, but they really just wasted him.

Seeing the Blendtrons in action made me want them more than I already do. But they're too expensive. As individuals they lack any personalities, though. And they go out like punks. I guess that's what happens when you make an unstoppable trios of foes.

And now. Galvatron. The return of the king. Or not?

I have to admit, the show itself makes it unclear. At first they talk about Galvatron disappearing. And then insinuate Unicron has inhabited his body. Gotcha. He did get drunk off Anglomois energy after all. Buuuuuuut then they said Unicron's Galvatron body was made up of energy. So I guess it's a copy.

So what happened to Galvatron at the end of II!? He doesn't seem to show up at the end credits, unless I missed him. The wiki said he died, but I looked at the last episode of II just now and he shouts "I'm still here!" at the very end. Or maybe that wasn't him? Or maybe he died immediately after that? I dunno; whatever.

Galvatron stays in dragon form almost the entire time he's here. And that's be great if they made him fight like a dragon. Instead his big fight with Magmatron was with his small axes in hand-to-hand combat. Never uses his tail. Never flies. He never uses his drill mode. And he abstains from robot mode, even though we've already seen it last series. I feel like they didn't milk this for all it was worth. In comparison the Blendtron fights were a lot more intense. Poor animation really hampers this anime.

I do want a new Galvatron toy. I have II's toy. But it's mid. Very back heavy. The first one I got broke a little bit after I twisted the gold drill casings for dragon mode. I fixed it, but still. Bought a new one while watching II and, yeah. I think he deserves a new figure. The design has potential.

Continuity

I commented on this in my edits, but this show's last push is hampered by it's poor use of continuity.

The Predacons having a homeworld called Dinosaur works for this show only. Maybe the original Beast Wars if you forget the opening where they choose new forms based on local wildlife and fossils. But not II, the show this immediately follows. Not G1 either.

I would have liked to see the cast of II return in an episode rather than in cutscenes as well. Maybe with Gigastorm mistaking Unicron for Galvatron. A passing of the torch episode. Or something. Instead I feel like their hamfisting Unicron into the show wasn't well researched. I mean, it's a fine idea. But ... how?

I guess Seibertron and Vector Sigma got better after Scorpinok blew it up? I think the wiki says Rodimus found a new planet for them to colonize. That's convenient. The writers should have never blown it up in the first place.

I think this show could benefit from a "trimmed down" playlist. You don't need to skip everything. After all the early episodes help with character development. But you can only have so many before it gets repetitive.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Car Robots is sort of midway between Beast and the return of vehicles. I mean ... the main bad guys are the Predacons, so. Kinda counts?

Yes. And it came and went a whopping three whole years before Armada ever began in Japan. There's no real relation there. It's the Beast Era's epilogue.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:But in some ways it's worse. I don't think there's any real standouts in terms of characters. And that's where TF shows shine.

Archadis was the standout one for me, simply because he was the only competent Predacon among Magmatron's minions, being the smartest and most charismatic one of them all. I kept hearing Tony Todd or Blu Mankuma voice coming out of his mouth every time he was onscreen. Compared to his bumbling comrades, he was a breath of fresh air.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I think they even re-released Big Convoy at the time, right?

Twice, even. Both in the Encore line. The first was a show-accurate redeco of the original, meant to act as a stand-in MP to go with the MPs of Optimus Primal and Lio Convoy (both of which were scaled to match the height of the original Big Convoy mold in robot mode), and the second release was a toy-accurate version but with a new Matrix Buster accessory cannon and a retooled Energon Matrix that could fold up and fit inside the new weapon. The latter also included a new NAVI accessory.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Mach Kick is also a breath of fresh air bringing a much needed note of discord in the Maximal camp. Everyone just gets along too much! But he shows up and rocks the boat. At least for a few episodes.

Huh? Get along? Maybe by the end, but in the first half, Break and Colada were always being jerks, no one would listen to Longrack, and Stampy was getting bullied for his cowardice. These guys were all a bunch of misfits.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Magmatron was disappointing. We never get a good fight between him and Big Convoy. He's just another armchair general. Ironically he seems the same personality-wise as BW Galvatron, except he's given even less to do! I kinda understand where the writers were coming from - not wanting to ruin his mystique, but they really just wasted him.

He did at least get his whole revenge plot with the Blentrons since he loathed and despised Unicron more than anything else (for destroying the homeworld of his ancestors) and was even willing to sacrifice his own minions to stop the Blentrons and prevent Unicron's return.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And now. Galvatron. The return of the king. Or not?

I have to admit, the show itself makes it unclear. At first they talk about Galvatron disappearing. And then insinuate Unicron has inhabited his body. Gotcha. He did get drunk off Anglomois energy after all. Buuuuuuut then they said Unicron's Galvatron body was made up of energy. So I guess it's a copy.

The whole deal with that is this: Unicron was revived in an energy body that he can shapeshift into whatever form he wants. He initially chose to appear as Galvatron into order to catch Magmatron off guard and make him think he was Galvatron instead of Unicron. But then Unicron let slip his true identity and dropped the ruse right before he sent Magmatron into that portal (of doom!).

He then simply chose to continue using Galvatron's likeness as his base form for the rest of the series so that Takara could have kids use their Galvatron toys as a stand-in for Unicron since the actual new Unicron toy was canceled.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:So what happened to Galvatron at the end of II!? He doesn't seem to show up at the end credits, unless I missed him. The wiki said he died, but I looked at the last episode of II just now and he shouts "I'm still here!" at the very end. Or maybe that wasn't him? Or maybe he died immediately after that? I dunno; whatever.

The red glow right after he said "Commendable indeed, Lio Convoy...", that was Galvatron exploding along with Nemesis. This is Unicron impersonating Galvatron's likeness.

Also, the "I'm still out here!" line sounded more like Gigastorm to me. Too wacky to be Galvatron. And it was said when all of the Maximals were breaking the fourth wall to say goodbye to the viewing audience, so that whole goofy bit at the end is probably not actually canon.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:The Predacons having a homeworld called Dinosaur works for this show only. Maybe the original Beast Wars if you forget the opening where they choose new forms based on local wildlife and fossils. But not II, the show this immediately follows. Not G1 either.

It's eventually clarified by Guildart that Dinosaur isn't these particular Predacons' homeworld, but that of their ancestors. So it would have been a Decepticon colony planet like Chaar.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I would have liked to see the cast of II return in an episode rather than in cutscenes as well. Maybe with Gigastorm mistaking Unicron for Galvatron. A passing of the torch episode. Or something. Instead I feel like their hamfisting Unicron into the show wasn't well researched. I mean, it's a fine idea. But ... how?

At least they showed up for the end credits of the finale, helping to rebuild Cybertron.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I guess Seibertron and Vector Sigma got better after Scorpinok blew it up? I think the wiki says Rodimus found a new planet for them to colonize. That's convenient. The writers should have never blown it up in the first place.

Oh, it's a little more complicated than that. While Rodimus did find a new world, that world was Planet Micro, the home of the Micromasters in Victory, which later got upgraded and renamed Planet Zone by the time of Zone.

Cybertron proper, meanwhile, actually got fully rebuilt across the near-ten years between The Headmasters and Masterforce, all thanks to the miraculous survival of Vector Sigma, as would eventually be explained in the Unite Warriors manga for Lynxmaster (or Sky Reign, if you prefer the Hasbro name):

Panels read right-to-left

- While I'm glad they decided to clear up the rebuilding of Cybertron it's a retcon coming decades later - I still hold it against the show. I maintain that it being blown up in Headmasters was an unnessasary excess. And shouldn't Ironhide be long dead, why is he in that panel?

- But even if they came from a particular colony world, when was it eaten by Unicron? Nobody heard of him in TFTM, so when was it established and when was it eaten and why did no Cybertronian act like they knew of Unicron in TFTM?

- I dunno, it felt that, aside form some bickering, the Cybertrons got along well enough until Mach Kick came along. There were early episodes showcasing the flaws you mention, but after those were put out it was kind of smooth sailing. A little too smooth! So I'm glad he came on board.

- Archadis, eh? He did come to mind, but I feel like it wasn't enough to put him above D-Navi. We've had a few schemer characters by now. Starscream, LeoZack, Hellbat, Starscream (BW), most of the BW Predacons ... for me just the archetype isn't enough. D-Navi brings more to the table in every episode. That's why I like her most.

- That reissue Big Convoy looks more tempting now that I'm more familiar with him. I have Nemesis Prime from ages ago already tho. I did decide I wanted Black Lio Convoy after watching II, though, to go with him.

- I do like how Magmatron was used in the end arc, but it comes after he does nothing for almost the entire series. If he had actually fought Big Convoy and, maybe, even won a few capsules I'd have appreciated his heel turn more. Or if he had expressed concern and appreciation for his men his sudden disregard for their lives would be more meaningful, but he did have D-Navi fire on them at one point in the series. Throughout the series he often casts aside Predacons who displeases him. So this new progression isn't as impactful as it might have been if they had only played with their toy more. It seems more like I'm supposed to be impressed that this archetype is playing against type than this specific character is acting out and it doesn't quite work for me.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:- While I'm glad they decided to clear up the rebuilding of Cybertron it's a retcon coming decades later - I still hold it against the show. I maintain that it being blown up in Headmasters was an unnessasary excess. And shouldn't Ironhide be long dead, why is he in that panel?

Cuz he had a new Unite Warriors toy at the time, too.

He was also seen alive and well in The Headmasters for no reason.



Ratchet should also be dead, too, yet there he is in Unite Warriors. His and Ironhide's unexplained resurrection is a hole that no modern retcon has ever fixed yet, either.

Although, outside of Neo and Car Robots, Cybertron was also mentioned as inexplicably being back in the toy bio for the Nucleon Quest Super Convoy toy that came out in 2001 (a black redeco of the Powermaster Optimus Prime toy). Said bio was set during the time at the very end of G1 right before G2, as it served as a prelude to the creation of Action Masters in JG1:

Once there was era in which the planet Seibertron had been struck by a fatal energy shortage. At this time, Convoy and HiQ, a scientist from the planet Nebulos, undertook a perilous journey in search of a new energy to replace Energon.
In order for him to extract the super-energy "Nucleon" that exists in black holes, his entire structure is now protected by a phase modulation shield. He can now carry out activity in super-gravitic environments.

Due to the mention of this "fatal energy shortage", it was originally believed for years that this was in reference to Cybertron's destruction in The Headmasters and that the Nucleon was what was used to finally restore the planet decades later during the time between G1 and G2 in the 2030s. But, alas, it was just an ordinary energy crisis rather than the planet's destruction. Unite Warriors went and gave us its version instead.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:- But even if they came from a particular colony world, when was it eaten by Unicron? Nobody heard of him in TFTM, so when was it established and when was it eaten and why did no Cybertronian act like they knew of Unicron in TFTM?

I guess it was eaten before Unicron's destruction in TFTM. Maybe its destruction was originally a mystery to Megatron until after Unicron made his appearance in 2005, and then further investigation into the matter now with knowledge of Unicron in mind made the Decepticons realize that he was one responsible.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I did decide I wanted Black Lio Convoy after watching II, though, to go with him.

It's a good thing Hasbro actually made the Legacy one. It's the only toy of Copy Convoy to actually use his original cartoon deco (black mane, gray further) instead of the inverted deco used by all of his Takara toys (silver mane, black fur).

Oh, one more thing. Cybertron was also seen fully intact in Beast Wars season 1, whose Japanese dub had already come out before both Second and Neo. So it was already inexplicably back by then thanks to that show, first.