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Mr. Kemp wrote:By the way, you didn't answer my third question, the one regarding tormenting Autobots and humans.

Did too! I regard those as thugs. There's always going to be a section of society that likes to inflict pain on others. But I don't feel that ALL Decepticons are like that.

Hi-Q wrote:Optimus Prime doesn't want to be king of anybody. Megatron wants to not only be king of cybertron, but everything he surveys.

And what's wrong with Megatron wanting to rule?

Apparently everything if you're an Autobot. Perhaps Megatron wants to rule simply because he sees the Autobot leadership as worthless and incapable of leading.

Five faces of Darkness. Just look at how the autobots slowly, painfully, starve the decepticons to death. Even the cons wouldn't stoop to that.

Burn wrote:And what's wrong with Megatron wanting to rule?

Apparently everything if you're an Autobot. Perhaps Megatron wants to rule simply because he sees the Autobot leadership as worthless and incapable of leading.

Last I checked, the Autobots only wanted their homeland back.

Megatron wants to become king of the galaxy. He wants to take over places that weren't even part of Cybertron.

FirstChAoS wrote:Five faces of Darkness. Just look at how the autobots slowly, painfully, starve the decepticons to death. Even the cons wouldn't stoop to that.

What about when the Decepticons were going to make the Autobots slowly, painfully, rot away from cosmic rust?

ScorpoMax wrote:

FirstChAoS wrote:Five faces of Darkness. Just look at how the autobots slowly, painfully, starve the decepticons to death. Even the cons wouldn't stoop to that.

What about when the Decepticons were going to make the Autobots slowly, painfully, rot away from cosmic rust?

And the autobots needed to use the same tricks? As I heard, their propaganda said, that they want to be the "good" side.

Last I checked, the Autobots only wanted their homeland back.

Megatron wants to become king of the galaxy. He wants to take over places that weren't even part of Cybertron.

And why couldn't they lived then under Megatron's rule? The same goes for decepticons: They want back their homeplanet also.

Grimlock86 wrote:
And why couldn't they lived then under Megatron's rule? The same goes for decepticons: They want back their homeplanet also.

Because Megatron wanted the Autobots destroyed. Prime wanted everyone to co-exist.

And like I said Megatron wanted to be ruler of the galaxy. Optimus had no such visions of grandeur.

Had Optimus been the head of the council from the get-go, I think much of the conflict would have been averted.

There was a armada fanfic about this. It made some sense

Point is the the Autobots are the leser of two evils. They may have some bad aples among their ranks, but their general intencions are good. The Deceptcons are however clearly evil, but like i said the armada fic i read made them both very diferent.

Grimlock86: Do you know why the Autobots couldn't live under Megatron's rule? Because living under the heel of a tyrant, even if he isn't going to kill you, isn't life; it's living death. The tyrant, in this case, Megatron, would oppress you more and more until your life is hell. Freedom from tyranny, from oppression, that is every innocent person's right. Life without freedom is worthless; what's the point of having your life if you can't be in control of it? There is no point to it.

This is twice now in the same thread that I've double-posted. This is getting irritating...

Is he a tyrant? Or does he simply want what's best for his fellow Cybertronians?

Prime does ...

Mr. Kemp wrote:Grimlock86: Do you know why the Autobots couldn't live under Megatron's rule? Because living under the heel of a tyrant, even if he isn't going to kill you, isn't life; it's living death. The tyrant, in this case, Megatron, would oppress you more and more until your life is hell. Freedom from tyranny, from oppression, that is every innocent person's right. Life without freedom is worthless; what's the point of having your life if you can't be in control of it? There is no point to it.

This is BS. Than why did every lesser decepticons look up to him? (except for Screamer, but he was a fool) He wanted order.
To be in complete freedom leads to pure chaos (not in the better meaning of chaos).

Grimlock86 wrote:

Mr. Kemp wrote:Grimlock86: Do you know why the Autobots couldn't live under Megatron's rule? Because living under the heel of a tyrant, even if he isn't going to kill you, isn't life; it's living death. The tyrant, in this case, Megatron, would oppress you more and more until your life is hell. Freedom from tyranny, from oppression, that is every innocent person's right. Life without freedom is worthless; what's the point of having your life if you can't be in control of it? There is no point to it.

This is BS. Than why did every lesser decepticons look up to him? (except for Screamer, but he was a fool) He wanted order.
To be in complete freedom leads to pure chaos (not in the better meaning of chaos).

The lesser cons looked up to him, becuase if they didn´t, he would pummel the living daylights out of them. Deceptcons want power and will destroy anyone who defy them.

General Magnus wrote:Deceptcons want power and will destroy anyone who defy them.

Generalising again ...

And you still say that likes it a bad thing.

You know it is Roddy's fault peace cannot be attained. They all team up to beat Unicron (except when Galvatron, who initially WANTED to side with Hot Rod to beat him but was tortured into attacking him) and as soon as big old Rodimus Prime takes command what does he do?

"Decepticons, thanks for the help...now get the hell off of my planet."

Chaar was the real slow death Mr. Kemp. Did you see how they suffered before Cyclonus heralded Galvatron's return? They were so weak some couldn't fully transform..or maintain it. When Rodimus and Grimlock came there, Roddy felt bad over what he had done...well too little too late. The moment Grimlock blew their cover, all the Decepticons saw the man that left them to die and opened fire.

Sure Galvy came back nutso but fort he most part he had their interests in mind, and Cyc did his best to keep his madness in check...but that too was Roddy's fault.

In all the fiction you have seen the bots win, the cons suffer (Chaar, BW, the treatment they got in Energon after GALVATRON saved the universe by sacrificing himself, because they were religated to watchdogs and after a decade were still mocked and mistreated)...yeah it's true of the reverse but the difference is that the bots claim to be peace loving and see everyone as equals, when it's deep rooted that in the end it's all the same. At least Megatron is honest about his goals.

Dynamax wrote:You know it is Roddy's fault peace cannot be attained. They all team up to beat Unicron (except when Galvatron, who initially WANTED to side with Hot Rod to beat him but was tortured into attacking him) and as soon as big old Rodimus Prime takes command what does he do?

"Decepticons, thanks for the help...now get the hell off of my planet."

Chaar was the real slow death Mr. Kemp. Did you see how they suffered before Cyclonus heralded Galvatron's return? They were so weak some couldn't fully transform..or maintain it. When Rodimus and Grimlock came there, Roddy felt bad over what he had done...well too little too late. The moment Grimlock blew their cover, all the Decepticons saw the man that left them to die and opened fire.

Sure Galvy came back nutso but fort he most part he had their interests in mind, and Cyc did his best to keep his madness in check...but that too was Roddy's fault.

In all the fiction you have seen the bots win, the cons suffer (Chaar, BW, the treatment they got in Energon after GALVATRON saved the universe by sacrificing himself, because they were religated to watchdogs and after a decade were still mocked and mistreated)...yeah it's true of the reverse but the difference is that the bots claim to be peace loving and see everyone as equals, when it's deep rooted that in the end it's all the same. At least Megatron is honest about his goals.

In energon Megatron was wiling to destroy Earth, and even before waking up all he wanted was to destroy the Autobots.

Burn wrote:"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings"

Provided you don't do anything that the Autobots don't like.

The Autobots are as corrupt as the Jedi. They go around enforcing their beliefs onto others, "don't do this, don't do that, that's the wrong thing to do".

Read the Megatron Origin comic and just see how corrupt the Autobots really are and what they think of their lower class citizens.

They would have committed many "war crimes" and covered them up. They're not the peace loving do-gooders their propoganda says they are.

I gotta get that comic... I like your thoughts and your sig is awesome! I so agree with you

Mr. Kemp wrote:Grimlock86: Do you know why the Autobots couldn't live under Megatron's rule? Because living under the heel of a tyrant, even if he isn't going to kill you, isn't life; it's living death. The tyrant, in this case, Megatron, would oppress you more and more until your life is hell. Freedom from tyranny, from oppression, that is every innocent person's right. Life without freedom is worthless; what's the point of having your life if you can't be in control of it? There is no point to it.

I will note here that Megatron was very concerned for the safety of the Decepticons. Starscream pointed out the earth would shatter, Megatron reassured him that they had an escape route. Megatron cared.

Burn wrote:"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings"

Provided you don't do anything that the Autobots don't like.

The Autobots are as corrupt as the Jedi. They go around enforcing their beliefs onto others, "don't do this, don't do that, that's the wrong thing to do".

Moral relativism?

You can do better than that.

We destroy parasites that are unable to live in a symbiotic nature with a host. No one permits fleas, ticks, and roaches to willingly live in their home.

Decepticons take energy and resources from a planet without cause or care to the results, leaving it dead as opposed to productive and alive.

They then go to the next world and repeat the process.

Sounds parasitic to me.

I'll take a can of Autobot Raid any day, even if it stinks from time to time.

General Magnus wrote:

Dynamax wrote:You know it is Roddy's fault peace cannot be attained. They all team up to beat Unicron (except when Galvatron, who initially WANTED to side with Hot Rod to beat him but was tortured into attacking him) and as soon as big old Rodimus Prime takes command what does he do?

"Decepticons, thanks for the help...now get the hell off of my planet."

Chaar was the real slow death Mr. Kemp. Did you see how they suffered before Cyclonus heralded Galvatron's return? They were so weak some couldn't fully transform..or maintain it. When Rodimus and Grimlock came there, Roddy felt bad over what he had done...well too little too late. The moment Grimlock blew their cover, all the Decepticons saw the man that left them to die and opened fire.

Sure Galvy came back nutso but fort he most part he had their interests in mind, and Cyc did his best to keep his madness in check...but that too was Roddy's fault.

In all the fiction you have seen the bots win, the cons suffer (Chaar, BW, the treatment they got in Energon after GALVATRON saved the universe by sacrificing himself, because they were religated to watchdogs and after a decade were still mocked and mistreated)...yeah it's true of the reverse but the difference is that the bots claim to be peace loving and see everyone as equals, when it's deep rooted that in the end it's all the same. At least Megatron is honest about his goals.

In energon Megatron was wiling to destroy Earth, and even before waking up all he wanted was to destroy the Autobots.

And Optimus was willing to burn up the Earth instead of leaving it in decepticon hands. What they did with the Inca city, they were willing to do with Earth.

Those of you who are defending the Autobots can I ask you a question? Do you believe that people are born 'good' or 'evil', or do you believe that it's a persons experience in life that shapes them? If you believe that it is experience that matters then ask your self how did these 'evil' Decepticons come to be from the 'good' society of the Autobots? Do you think Megatron and the others just woke up one day and said "Being nice is boring, lets start a war and opress the natives other planets! WOOOH!"? No. Something made them turn down that path, something in the society of pre-war cybertron must have been rotten enough to cause them to revolt, something must have created these monsterous Decepticons. Monsters some of them may be, but wasn't it Autobot society that created them in the first place?

the parasitical nature of the Decepticons... Was it not the Autobots that left Cybertron first? The Decepticons followed out of curiosity. The bots were looking for energy too.

Uncrazzimatic wrote:Those of you who are defending the Autobots can I ask you a question? Do you believe that people are born 'good' or 'evil', or do you believe that it's a persons experience in life that shapes them? If you believe that it is experience that matters then ask your self how did these 'evil' Decepticons come to be from the 'good' society of the Autobots? Do you think Megatron and the others just woke up one day and said "Being nice is boring, lets start a war and opress the natives other planets! WOOOH!"? No. Something made them turn down that path, something in the society of pre-war cybertron must have been rotten enough to cause them to revolt, something must have created these monsterous Decepticons. Monsters some of them may be, but wasn't it Autobot society that created them in the first place?

Again, moral relativism.

Because something bad or unfair happened to a group of individuals, now an entire galaxy has to suffer to right a wrong they weren't involved in?

The Decepticons aren't just waging Civil War, unchecked they will simply consume without pause.

And yes, that is a bad thing. That's kind of the definition of evil.

Yes, right and wrong exist. If you don't think so, next time someone bashes in your skull when you aren't looking, takes your wallet, and kills your girlfriend; you can be assured that it's OK, because in their mind, it was a perfectly fair thing to do.

What is moral in one culture or acceptible is not moral or acceptible in anothe culture .

What we define as right and as wrong is not necessaryly the same as how another country defines right and wrong. Some cultures belive it to be wrong to drink. Some cultures belive it to be wrong to spit on the sidewalk. Some cultures make taxi drivers carry a bail of hay in their vehicals (I think its stopped now as it was terribly out dated). Some cultures feel marrige at the age of 10 is perfectly normal.

Some cultures belived that only the strong and fit should survive and some cultures coddle their weak.

Lets not go on the silly, bash the head in is okay idea but look at what is correct and incorrect in cultures.

The Autobots and Decepticons are Two different cultures. They are the same race or species of people. The Decepitocns have their own society and the Autobots feel it is incorrect. They wish to "save" or "correct" the Decepticon's obviously errored ways. Kind of like missionaries went to "save" the "savage" cultures on earth.

Look at it another way.

In a time of famine, and I am sure you will agree cybertron had a famine, people will do anything in order to feed themselves and their families. People with no money will steal bread to feed themselves and their families. Hunger is one of the most basic instincts. I am not saying theft is right, but one will do what one needs to do to survive. Survival is also a very basic instinct.

Decepticons were hungry and there was not much left to have on Cybertron. They went to another world where there was energy. They crashed there and woke up a 4 million years later. They decided to get enough fuel on their ship to help their home world and leave. It did not take All of earths resources, just some of it.

In their attempts to collect energy, the autobots were there at every opportunity. They fired on teh Decepticons first. They drove them away from their fuel. They would not let them eat. That is a BIG crime. Starving anyone, be it friend or foe is pure evil and cruel.

With the first encounter with the humans, The Decepticons drove them off. No harm came to them.

The Decepticons attacked the oil rig, but the humans attacked them. When I am attacked by mosquitoes I swat back. The Decepticons swatted back at the humans probably not sure what they were.

As soon as the cons were driven off that, with what little they collected. The Autobots said the cons were bad and they were good.

the governments of earth fueled the bot's ship and gave them the fuel to empower cybertron....but the Autobots Never left. They stayed on earth and took the handouts. They kept the cons on earth so it looked like they were fighting a nusence.

Some parasites can be spotted at a distance. But some parasites...look pretty. Somethings look benine when in actual fact they are not good.

Humans would, if we had the technology by then, move on to different worlds when ours is dry of energy. We would try to exert our dominace on other species and take the energy that we need; slowly spreading out across the universe.

People have had to do some slag things to survive, this includes canibalism. I don't think the Decepticons are much different.

General Magnus wrote:

Dynamax wrote:You know it is Roddy's fault peace cannot be attained. They all team up to beat Unicron (except when Galvatron, who initially WANTED to side with Hot Rod to beat him but was tortured into attacking him) and as soon as big old Rodimus Prime takes command what does he do?

"Decepticons, thanks for the help...now get the hell off of my planet."

Chaar was the real slow death Mr. Kemp. Did you see how they suffered before Cyclonus heralded Galvatron's return? They were so weak some couldn't fully transform..or maintain it. When Rodimus and Grimlock came there, Roddy felt bad over what he had done...well too little too late. The moment Grimlock blew their cover, all the Decepticons saw the man that left them to die and opened fire.

Sure Galvy came back nutso but fort he most part he had their interests in mind, and Cyc did his best to keep his madness in check...but that too was Roddy's fault.

In all the fiction you have seen the bots win, the cons suffer (Chaar, BW, the treatment they got in Energon after GALVATRON saved the universe by sacrificing himself, because they were religated to watchdogs and after a decade were still mocked and mistreated)...yeah it's true of the reverse but the difference is that the bots claim to be peace loving and see everyone as equals, when it's deep rooted that in the end it's all the same. At least Megatron is honest about his goals.

In energon Megatron was wiling to destroy Earth, and even before waking up all he wanted was to destroy the Autobots.

..while slowly being posessed by the not Futurama Robot Devil Unicron. And in the end at Energon he once again died to save the universe from Unicron once he regained himself after fighting off his control.

Both times Prime just stood there. All he did in the end was bitchslap the real hero.

And ask yourself, Demolishor was loyal and he was geing trakstalked by the bots. Even after Tidal Wave and Cyclonus jumped ship, Demolishor struggled to stay on the bots side and he got trashtalked and insulted some more. Did he deserve it? No. What made him jump ship? The bots abuse.

And note that as soon as he died Megatron saved his spark and remade him. One of his last acts of benevolence before Unicron drove him mad but it proved that he cared for his own, despite Demolishor's misgivings.

I mean I am not saying the cons are totally justified nor the bots totally corrupt. it just both sides are dirty in this war.

I mean even the Beast Wars had their own forms of corruption. *coughProtoformXandtheTripredicusCouncilcough* I just like how that show showed that the Maximals were not perfect either.

Sunstar wrote:Lets not go on the silly, bash the head in is okay idea but look at what is correct and incorrect in cultures.

Oh no, it's perfectly relevent and here's why...

Sunstar wrote:Some cultures belived that only the strong and fit should survive and some cultures coddle their weak.

You're correct and not only that, you win the door prize!

This is especially perfect because I know that you're female (rl).

Coddle the weak...

Perfect.

(Now, this could get offensive, but it's said out of pragmatism and not villany...)

You know what women are? I'll tell you what they aren't. They aren't as strong as men. They aren't as big as men and they aren't as aggressive as men.

In almost every third world culture, women are second to men in almost everything. They're property, they're abused, they're dealt with unfairly.

That's the culture. That's their version of 'right'. They loose out on all the potential contributions women provide because of how they treat them.

Take away the rule and structure of 'right and moral' and women go back to being treated almost as good as dirt. How would you live with the constant threat of violence, rape, and abuse hanging over you?

You can argue all you want that the Autobots are 'corrupt', but you know what? the Decepticons lord that threat of violence, rape, and abuse over every world they visit.

Dynamax wrote:

General Magnus wrote:

Dynamax wrote:You know it is Roddy's fault peace cannot be attained. They all team up to beat Unicron (except when Galvatron, who initially WANTED to side with Hot Rod to beat him but was tortured into attacking him) and as soon as big old Rodimus Prime takes command what does he do?

"Decepticons, thanks for the help...now get the hell off of my planet."

Chaar was the real slow death Mr. Kemp. Did you see how they suffered before Cyclonus heralded Galvatron's return? They were so weak some couldn't fully transform..or maintain it. When Rodimus and Grimlock came there, Roddy felt bad over what he had done...well too little too late. The moment Grimlock blew their cover, all the Decepticons saw the man that left them to die and opened fire.

Sure Galvy came back nutso but fort he most part he had their interests in mind, and Cyc did his best to keep his madness in check...but that too was Roddy's fault.

In all the fiction you have seen the bots win, the cons suffer (Chaar, BW, the treatment they got in Energon after GALVATRON saved the universe by sacrificing himself, because they were religated to watchdogs and after a decade were still mocked and mistreated)...yeah it's true of the reverse but the difference is that the bots claim to be peace loving and see everyone as equals, when it's deep rooted that in the end it's all the same. At least Megatron is honest about his goals.

In energon Megatron was wiling to destroy Earth, and even before waking up all he wanted was to destroy the Autobots.

..while slowly being posessed by the not Futurama Robot Devil Unicron. And in the end at Energon he once again died to save the universe from Unicron once he regained himself after fighting off his control.

Both times Prime just stood there. All he did in the need was bitchslap the real hero.

And ask yourself, Demolishor was loyal and he was geing trakstalked by the bots. Even after Tidal Wave and Cyclonus jumped ship, Demolishor struggled to stay on the bots side and he got trashtalked and insulted some more. Did he deserve it? No. What made him jump ship? The bots abuse.

And note that as soon as he died Megatron saved his spark and remade him. One of his last acts of benevolence before Unicron drove him mad but it proved that he cared for his own, despite Demolishor's misgivings.

I mean I am not saying the cons are totally justified nor the bots totally corrupt. it just both sides are dirty in this war.

I mean even the Beast Wars had their own forms of corruption. *coughProtoformXandtheTripredicusCouncilcough* I just like how that show showed that the Maximals were not perfect either.

Granted, but then again Megatron was sane when he aimed the Hydra Cannon at Earth, and guess who took a shot for billions of humans? Optimus Prime.

The Maximals from BW were extremy corrupted. Heck in the aftermath of BM ( Universe comics)they arrested Optmius Primal.