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Loki vs. Sinestro

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Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby God Thundercracker » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:19 pm

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Who wins?
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby FortMacs » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:48 am

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Loki.

Sinestro is badass, but dont see him taking down a God.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Shadowman » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:53 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Loki was the guy the Gods looked to when they needed a problem solved, or when they needed someone else to have a brand new problem, and he was really, really good at it. He shouldn't have a problem with a pink guy with a magic ring.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Dagon » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:49 pm

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I'm going to say Sinestro. He has subjugated entire planets in this universe and its' anti-matter equivalent, and the power of his ring is that it allows him to create anything he is capable of imagining. If we're talking Sinestro Corps Sinestro, he effectively wields the power of two spectrums, being Fear and Will. He is a fearless and ruthless guy who has beaten some of his unverses' baddest asses. He's also relentless, and in order to actually beat him, you must kill him. I don't mean like "hurr need to kill him!" I mean, you would literally have to kill him.

Loki's a god, sure. But in the Avengers the Hulk knocked him out. Loki's pretty cool as well, but Sinestro, man, Sinestro is an unstopping force.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Shadowman » Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:43 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Dagon wrote:and the power of his ring is that it allows him to create anything he is capable of imagining.


To a limit, it turns out. Constructs aren't indestructible.

Dagon wrote:If we're talking Sinestro Corps Sinestro, he effectively wields the power of two spectrums, being Fear and Will.


Kyle Rayner, for a short time, wielded the power of all seven emotions, and Guy Gardener has used both Rage and Will simultaneously. Also, Yellow rings are fueled by the fear of the victim, not the wielder's willpower.

Dagon wrote:He's also relentless, and in order to actually beat him, you must kill him. I don't mean like "hurr need to kill him!" I mean, you would literally have to kill him.


You should probably finish reading Sinestro Corps War; Hal and Kyle successfully subdue and arrest him, without killing him.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Dagon » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:35 pm

Motto: "Ain't nobody got time fo dat....."
Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle
Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:and the power of his ring is that it allows him to create anything he is capable of imagining.


To a limit, it turns out. Constructs aren't indestructible.


Yeah, and? The Lantern universe is filled with battles that are resolved through the use of force, and no one there has had any issue with constructs not being permanent. Constructs get broken all the time.


Dagon wrote:If we're talking Sinestro Corps Sinestro, he effectively wields the power of two spectrums, being Fear and Will.


Kyle Rayner, for a short time, wielded the power of all seven emotions, and Guy Gardener has used both Rage and Will simultaneously. Also, Yellow rings are fueled by the fear of the victim, not the wielder's willpower.
[/quote]

Yeah, and Sinestro was the original (meaning in this case, the first person to) wield the White Light, which was all the colors of the spectrum in their unified form. Kyle didn't wield all the lights, he ended up being 'chosen' by all seven rings, but he never wore any of them in that instance. The only other lights Kyle (who's my favorite Earth Lantern) has successfully wielded were Blue and Yellow, if we count his being forcibly turned into Parallax as wielding a light as opposed to being possessed by an Entity.
As for the Yellow rings not being fueled by Will, I'm not sure that was ever in question. They do draw some degree of power from the fear of the opponent, but they are primarily powered, like all the rings are, by their central battery. The advantage that a Yellow ring has is that if the wearer can instill fear in their target the wearer gets a boost of power. So, if Sinestro were able to make Loki fear him, Sinestro would get said power boost. But, I'm not really sure how that rustles my initial response in any way.

Dagon wrote:He's also relentless, and in order to actually beat him, you must kill him. I don't mean like "hurr need to kill him!" I mean, you would literally have to kill him.


You should probably finish reading Sinestro Corps War; Hal and Kyle successfully subdue and arrest him, without killing him.[/quote]


That's cute, and while I thank you for your concern, rest easy knowing that I have. What I said was that in order to beat Sinestro, one would have to kill him. Yes, Hal and Guy subdue him, shortly after which he escapes from Oa in search of more mischief. I would have to say that seeing as he was able to get back into action that would indicate Hal and Guy didn't kill him, and honestly, that sort of supports my initial point. Yeah, they subdue him, but he just kept on doing his Sinestro thing, and in fact does so to this day.
And, if you've read anything post Sinestro Corps War, you know that the list of challengers gets longer and tougher. Hal and Guy are certainly no Mongul or Weaponer, and in the New 52 stuff Sinestro at one point fights off an entire planet of people who are bent on kicking his ass, albeit with an assist from Hal.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Dagon » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:37 pm

Motto: "Ain't nobody got time fo dat....."
Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle
Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:and the power of his ring is that it allows him to create anything he is capable of imagining.


To a limit, it turns out. Constructs aren't indestructible.


Yeah, and? The Lantern universe is filled with battles that are resolved through the use of force, and no one there has had any issue with constructs not being permanent. Constructs get broken all the time.


Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:If we're talking Sinestro Corps Sinestro, he effectively wields the power of two spectrums, being Fear and Will.


Kyle Rayner, for a short time, wielded the power of all seven emotions, and Guy Gardener has used both Rage and Will simultaneously. Also, Yellow rings are fueled by the fear of the victim, not the wielder's willpower.


Yeah, and Sinestro was the original (meaning in this case, the first person to) wield the White Light, which was all the colors of the spectrum in their unified form. Kyle didn't wield all the lights, he ended up being 'chosen' by all seven rings, but he never wore any of them in that instance. The only other lights Kyle (who's my favorite Earth Lantern) has successfully wielded were Blue and Yellow, if we count his being forcibly turned into Parallax as wielding a light as opposed to being possessed by an Entity.
As for the Yellow rings not being fueled by Will, I'm not sure that was ever in question. They do draw some degree of power from the fear of the opponent, but they are primarily powered, like all the rings are, by their central battery. The advantage that a Yellow ring has is that if the wearer can instill fear in their target the wearer gets a boost of power. So, if Sinestro were able to make Loki fear him, Sinestro would get said power boost. But, I'm not really sure how that rustles my initial response in any way.

Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:He's also relentless, and in order to actually beat him, you must kill him. I don't mean like "hurr need to kill him!" I mean, you would literally have to kill him.


You should probably finish reading Sinestro Corps War; Hal and Kyle successfully subdue and arrest him, without killing him.



That's cute, and while I thank you for your concern, rest easy knowing that I have. What I said was that in order to beat Sinestro, one would have to kill him. Yes, Hal and Guy subdue him, shortly after which he escapes from Oa in search of more mischief. I would have to say that seeing as he was able to get back into action that would indicate Hal and Guy didn't kill him, and honestly, that sort of supports my initial point. Yeah, they subdue him, but he just kept on doing his Sinestro thing, and in fact does so to this day. Subduing someone is different from killing them.
And, if you've read anything post Sinestro Corps War, you know that the list of challengers gets longer and tougher. Hal and Guy are certainly no Mongul or Weaponer, and in the New 52 stuff Sinestro at one point fights off an entire planet of people who are bent on kicking his ass, albeit with an assist from Hal.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Shadowman » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:59 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Dagon wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:and the power of his ring is that it allows him to create anything he is capable of imagining.


To a limit, it turns out. Constructs aren't indestructible.


Yeah, and? The Lantern universe is filled with battles that are resolved through the use of force, and no one there has had any issue with constructs not being permanent. Constructs get broken all the time.


So then why did you bring it up? It's hardly a power unique to Sinestro, and it's imperfect; anyone sufficiently strong can break through it.

Dagon wrote:Yeah, and Sinestro was the original (meaning in this case, the first person to) wield the White Light, which was all the colors of the spectrum in their unified form.


He was possessed by the The Entity, at least until Nekron removed it from him, then it possessed Hal, who actually managed to use it.

Dagon wrote:Kyle didn't wield all the lights, he ended up being 'chosen' by all seven rings, but he never wore any of them in that instance.


Nope, he actually did wield all seven rings at once. Then he passed out from the stress of trying to wield all seven rings at once.

Dagon wrote:Yes, Hal and Guy subdue him, shortly after which he escapes from Oa in search of more mischief.


First off, Hal and Kyle. Second, no, he was broken out by the remnants of the Sinestro Corps, then kidnapped by the Red Lanterns, then rescued again by the Sinestro Corps.

Dagon wrote:I would have to say that seeing as he was able to get back into action that would indicate Hal and Guy didn't kill him, and honestly, that sort of supports my initial point. Yeah, they subdue him, but he just kept on doing his Sinestro thing, and in fact does so to this day. Subduing someone is different from killing them.


And? Every supervillain does that.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Dagon » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:35 pm

Motto: "Ain't nobody got time fo dat....."
Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle
Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:and the power of his ring is that it allows him to create anything he is capable of imagining.


To a limit, it turns out. Constructs aren't indestructible.


Yeah, and? The Lantern universe is filled with battles that are resolved through the use of force, and no one there has had any issue with constructs not being permanent. Constructs get broken all the time.


So then why did you bring it up? It's hardly a power unique to Sinestro, and it's imperfect; anyone sufficiently strong can break through it.


I didn't. You brought up the idea that constructs are breakable. I just said he could create anything he could imagine.

Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:Yeah, and Sinestro was the original (meaning in this case, the first person to) wield the White Light, which was all the colors of the spectrum in their unified form.


He was possessed by the The Entity, at least until Nekron removed it from him, then it possessed Hal, who actually managed to use it.


Right. But Sinestro was still the first guy to be in possession of the White Light.


Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:Kyle didn't wield all the lights, he ended up being 'chosen' by all seven rings, but he never wore any of them in that instance.


Nope, he actually did wield all seven rings at once. Then he passed out from the stress of trying to wield all seven rings at once.


Ok, I guess I'm remembering that wrong. But in honesty, I'm not sure how this or the White Light part indicate that I'm somehow wrong. It doesn't change the idea that Sinestro has used either the White or the Yellow or the Green.

Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:Yes, Hal and Guy subdue him, shortly after which he escapes from Oa in search of more mischief.


First off, Hal and Kyle. Second, no, he was broken out by the remnants of the Sinestro Corps, then kidnapped by the Red Lanterns, then rescued again by the Sinestro Corps.

Ok, Kyle. I'm mistaken. But, regardless of who captured him or released him, he remained alive, and thus was able to keep going about his business. The Sinestro Corps got him out as part of a jailbreak, and even after Atrocitus beat him up pretty good, Sinestro survived. So, once again, I'm not sure how his not being killed means that I'm wrong in my idea that he'll keep fighting unless someone kills him.

Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:I would have to say that seeing as he was able to get back into action that would indicate Hal and Guy didn't kill him, and honestly, that sort of supports my initial point. Yeah, they subdue him, but he just kept on doing his Sinestro thing, and in fact does so to this day. Subduing someone is different from killing them.


And? Every supervillain does that.
[/quote]

So then, how is Loki better? Wouldn't Loki do supervillain things as well? I'm not sure how this is a refutation either.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Shadowman » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:13 pm

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Dagon wrote:So then, how is Loki better? Wouldn't Loki do supervillain things as well? I'm not sure how this is a refutation either.


That's a good question: How does Sinestro's persistence, a fundamental aspect of every major comic book villain, make him better than Loki? We're talking about a God who, at least in the movies, it took a beating from the Incredible Hulk to keep him down just long enough to subdue him, and he's still confirmed to be an antagonist in the next Thor movie.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Dagon » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:29 pm

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Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:So then, how is Loki better? Wouldn't Loki do supervillain things as well? I'm not sure how this is a refutation either.


That's a good question: How does Sinestro's persistence, a fundamental aspect of every major comic book villain, make him better than Loki? We're talking about a God who, at least in the movies, it took a beating from the Incredible Hulk to keep him down just long enough to subdue him, and he's still confirmed to be an antagonist in the next Thor movie.



Persistence by itself would not be enough. That's why I'd mentioned power ring stuff.
Like Loki, Sinestro has been the antagonist in a number of iterations of their heros' narratives. Sinestro wasn't like some one and done guy, and neither was Loki.
Sinestro has fought a bunch of people who've thrown him around and, like Loki and his run in with the Hulk, has lived to fight them again and often get the upper hand.
So, I guess my question is how does getting beaten up by a hero and living, which has also happened to a number of supervillains, make Loki a better villain than Sinestro?
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Shadowman » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:46 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Dagon wrote:So, I guess my question is how does getting beaten up by a hero and living, which has also happened to a number of supervillains, make Loki a better villain than Sinestro?


Is there a point to all of this? I feel like you're building up to something but so far all you've done is basically say what Sinestro can do, while ignoring that Loki is also capable of it. Except Loki is a God and doesn't need a ring to use his powers.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Dagon » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:56 pm

Motto: "Ain't nobody got time fo dat....."
Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle
Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:So, I guess my question is how does getting beaten up by a hero and living, which has also happened to a number of supervillains, make Loki a better villain than Sinestro?


Is there a point to all of this? I feel like you're building up to something but so far all you've done is basically say what Sinestro can do, while ignoring that Loki is also capable of it. Except Loki is a God and doesn't need a ring to use his powers.


Funny, as if I switch the order of character names, that question is applicable to you as well. I can even accuse you of ignoring the fact that Sinestro has powers without needing to be a god.
The point was and is this: the thread asked for an opinion, and I gave mine.
Dagon wrote:I'm going to say Sinestro. He has subjugated entire planets in this universe and its' anti-matter equivalent, and the power of his ring is that it allows him to create anything he is capable of imagining. If we're talking Sinestro Corps Sinestro, he effectively wields the power of two spectrums, being Fear and Will. He is a fearless and ruthless guy who has beaten some of his unverses' baddest asses. He's also relentless, and in order to actually beat him, you must kill him. I don't mean like "hurr need to kill him!" I mean, you would literally have to kill him.

Loki's a god, sure. But in the Avengers the Hulk knocked him out. Loki's pretty cool as well, but Sinestro, man, Sinestro is an unstopping force.


Nowhere in any of my posts was any denial that Loki is persistent etc., but you've made it seem that all I've done is say that that's all that Sinestro is.
You brought up constructs being breakable, and that Sinestro had been 'subdued' before, as though to say that Loki somehow never has been.
At the end of the day, it's an opinion, and this was mine. So far as I can see I never said anything terrible or damaging about Loki, so I guess all I can say is that I'm sorry I disagree with you, and I hope you can still salvage the weekend despite this terrible news. ;)
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Shadowman » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:50 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Dagon wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:So, I guess my question is how does getting beaten up by a hero and living, which has also happened to a number of supervillains, make Loki a better villain than Sinestro?


Is there a point to all of this? I feel like you're building up to something but so far all you've done is basically say what Sinestro can do, while ignoring that Loki is also capable of it. Except Loki is a God and doesn't need a ring to use his powers.


Funny, as if I switch the order of character names, that question is applicable to you as well. I can even accuse you of ignoring the fact that Sinestro has powers without needing to be a god.


Sinestro doesn't actually have powers, it's all in the ring. Take that away, all you have is a pink guy.

Dagon wrote:Nowhere in any of my posts was any denial that Loki is persistent etc., but you've made it seem that all I've done is say that that's all that Sinestro is.
You brought up constructs being breakable, and that Sinestro had been 'subdued' before, as though to say that Loki somehow never has been.


What I was doing was disproving the things you were saying. Even if your opinion is that Sinestro would win, a lot of the things you've said are objectively wrong. Like how Sinestro can't be beaten by non-lethal means, ("Beaten" means "unable to continue with the current objective" otherwise he'd have conquered the entire universe by now) or how being knocked out by the Hulk is a sign of weakness. (It's the freaking Hulk!)

I never once said you were wrong for thinking Sinestro could beat Loki. I'm pointing out everything you're saying that I actually can prove wrong. Opinion means nothing here.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Dagon » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:14 pm

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Shadowman wrote:
Opinion means nothing here.


That sounds like an opinion to me, so you have fun with that.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Shadowman » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:22 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Dagon wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Opinion means nothing here.


That sounds like an opinion to me, so you have fun with that.


:BANG_HEAD:

Aside from "Sinestro can beat Loki" everything else you've said doesn't qualify as opinion, because I can actually look up whether it's true or not. You have no idea how sick I am of people saying whatever they want, then hiding behind the word "opinion" expecting for it to automatically make them right.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Dagon » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:37 pm

Motto: "Ain't nobody got time fo dat....."
Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle
Shadowman wrote:
Dagon wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
Opinion means nothing here.


That sounds like an opinion to me, so you have fun with that.


:BANG_HEAD:

Aside from "Sinestro can beat Loki" everything else you've said doesn't qualify as opinion, because I can actually look up whether it's true or not. You have no idea how sick I am of people saying whatever they want, then hiding behind the word "opinion" expecting for it to automatically make them right.



Ok, but with all due respect, you're projecting that fatigue at me. The nature of an opinion is that, no matter how infuriatingly stupid one may find it, it is absolutely correct to the person who holds it. I had not in the slightest bit said that Sinestro wins because I said so or here's some dumb 'reason.' You decided to fixate on my mentioning his relentless nature, the only reason I can think of that you did that is because it was the last thing my initial post contained and for some unexplained reason, you took that to represent my entire thought.
Yes, I said what I wanted to, and I'll do it again too. I'm not 'hiding' behind anything. I gave my thoughts. That's all. You want to really objectively solve this debate? You go get Loki, I'll call Sinestro and we'll have them fight it out in my backyard. Or your backyard, I don't care. That's the only 'objective' way that this can be solved, because no matter what objective observations you make, all I have to do is not agree, for whatever reasons, and then nothing is proven. That's the kind of hiding behind opinions that you're angry about, like if I said "No, Sinestro wins because lol I liek him morez!" and that's not what I'm doing.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Shadowman » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:26 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Dagon wrote:The nature of an opinion is that, no matter how infuriatingly stupid one may find it, it is absolutely correct to the person who holds it.


That's subjectivity, something that can be neither proven nor disproven. When you say something that can be disproven, you've moved past opinion, into the world of objectivity. You'd do well to well to learn which one you're dealing with.

Dagon wrote:You decided to fixate on my mentioning his relentless nature, the only reason I can think of that you did that is because it was the last thing my initial post contained and for some unexplained reason, you took that to represent my entire thought.


...Riiiiiiight. Do yourself a favor and read my other posts now. I talk about your other points.

Dagon wrote:Yes, I said what I wanted to, and I'll do it again too. I'm not 'hiding' behind anything. I gave my thoughts. That's all. You want to really objectively solve this debate? You go get Loki, I'll call Sinestro and we'll have them fight it out in my backyard. Or your backyard, I don't care. That's the only 'objective' way that this can be solved, because no matter what objective observations you make, all I have to do is not agree, for whatever reasons, and then nothing is proven. That's the kind of hiding behind opinions that you're angry about, like if I said "No, Sinestro wins because lol I liek him morez!" and that's not what I'm doing.


Um...no. I'm not trying to prove one side would win or lose. I'm actually disproving a lot of the things you're saying, at least everything except who would win in the fight. Turns out it really can be disproven. I don't know if you're missing that point on purpose or not, but you really need to start paying attention. You can't just saying something and follow it up with "opinion lolz."
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Dagon » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:08 am

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Ok. Once again then, you have a good time doing that.
As it turns out, a person absolutely can claim "lol opinion," and the idea that such a practice bothers you is proof that people have done it and that supports te idea that it indeed can be done. So just for you Shadowman, Sinestro wins because I like him more.
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Re: Loki vs. Sinestro

Postby Shadowman » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:49 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Dagon wrote:Ok. Once again then, you have a good time doing that.
As it turns out, a person absolutely can claim "lol opinion," and the idea that such a practice bothers you is proof that people have done it and that supports te idea that it indeed can be done. So just for you Shadowman, Sinestro wins because I like him more.


Wow, are you intentionally missing my point? It's like, I've said it numerous times, but you still aren't getting it. It's not that hard, either. You can't call "opinion" and expect it to protect you when there's proof you're wrong. This has nothing to do with who will win. How can you not understand that?

Dagon wrote:Enjoy having the last word, you're obviously going to have to have it.


I will, thanks. Enjoy having a poor comprehension of the word "opinion."
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Shadowman's awesome site for cool people.
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"Falling is really just flying downward and out of control."
Wigglez wrote:Just remember. The sword is an extension of your arm. Use it as if you're going to karate chop someone with your really long sharp ass hand.
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #98 - Combiner Wars
Twincast / Podcast #98:
"Combiner Wars"
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Posted: Thursday, August 14th, 2014