The Energon Pub

I have heard a theory that everyone and everything in the Universe was created by an all-powerful supreme being. However, I see no evidence of this. Does anyone have some evidence supporting the existance of such a supreme being?

The fact that you exist is pretty tangible evidence by itself. Or do you honestly think the universe and everything in it came from nothing? Something from nothing? Really?

What proof exists for that theory?

I honestly don't think a creator sat down and designed the entire universe down to the most minute detail but something had to get the ball rolling once upon a time.

I'm not about to believe a word of any silly biblical genesis stories though.

lkavadas wrote:The fact that you exist is pretty tangible evidence by itself. Or do you honestly think the universe and everything in it came from nothing? Something from nothing? Really?

What proof exists for that theory?

I honestly don't think a creator sat down and designed the entire universe down to the most minute detail but something had to get the ball rolling once upon a time.

I'm not about to believe a word of any silly biblical genesis stories though.

Pretty hostile response, don't you think? I asked for evidence. I don't want to get all existential, but the the only thing that our existence implies is that we exist.

Something did have to get the ball rolling. True. I don't know what did it. True. How is that evidence for the existence of God?

Professor Smooth wrote:Pretty hostile response, don't you think? I asked for evidence. I don't want to get all existential, but the the only thing that our existence implies is that we exist.

Yeah, and that's proof. Unless you're honestly willing to believe that our entire reality and universe spawned from nothing. And how can you start a thread like this and then rule out existentialism? That's the entire crux of the argument. That's like telling someone to prove the existence of peanut butter but forbidding them to mention peanuts.

Could you handicap your responders anymore? Talk about a rigged or loaded question.

Something did have to get the ball rolling. True. I don't know what did it. True. How is that evidence for the existence of God?

There ya go. You agree something did it. If you would drop the traditional trappings of the definition of "god(s)" found in the major religions we might actually be able to have a real debate about the subject but I honestly don't think you can separate those notions from the something no matter how hard you try.

God(s) existence is not a debate of theology, it's one of philosophy. One is rational and the other is not.

So what could I ever say to convince you about anything? What could anyone say?

If existence itself isn't enough to prove it than your S.O.L. buddy 'cuz y'aint ever gettin' more evidence than that.

Let me see if I have your argument correct:

The universe exists. People exist. We exist. Something had to cause that. That proves that (a) God exists.

Is that about right?

Professor Smooth wrote:Let me see if I have your argument correct:

The universe exists. People exist. We exist. Something had to cause that. That proves that (a) God exists.

Is that about right?

Yeah. It's not perfect but it's way more rational than thinking something came from nothing, wouldn't you agree?

Although I certainly don't believe in a "traditional" notion of god(s), let alone what you'd find in any religious text put out by the "big three."

Anyways, that's rationalism at it's finest in my book. I like rationality.

Ah, creationsim vs. evolution, round two.

There are more options than just "God did it" or "something came from nothing." The point of this thread is not to figure out how the universe was created. It is to find evidence that a God exists.

Throughout history, Gods have been used to fill in gaps in our knowledge. Humans didn't know what caused the sun to rise and set, so they credited a God. Humans didn't know what caused lighting to strike. God again. As human knowledge and understanding increased, those Gods were made obsolete.

This is what is known as a "God of Gaps." Whenever there is something that humans don't know or understand, people attribute it to a God.

lkavadas wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote:Let me see if I have your argument correct:

The universe exists. People exist. We exist. Something had to cause that. That proves that (a) God exists.

Is that about right?

Yeah. It's not perfect...

Right where I made it red, an assumption has been made. Can't use an assumption for proof the last time I checked.

Dark Zarak wrote:Right where I made it red, an assumption has been made. Can't use an assumption for proof the last time I checked.

You are correct, sir!

So we are back to square one.

I do not think that there can ever be any evidence for the existence of god or gods. Someone, maybe Max Weber believed that God/s was a creation by a human/society because they believed that they needed to have their existence validated in some spiritual way beyond what materials could provide. Maybe that's all there is.

Karl Marx believed that Religion was used by the upper class to control the lower class and to prevent the lower class from seeing the class gaps. At the time he may have been right, but now there are several upper class people who embrace religion too.

There are several arguments for the existence of God, but those arguments have just as many counter-arguments.

There's the Ontological Argument which states the following:
1) Imagine the greatest possible being
2) To exist is greater than to just exist in the immagination
3) If this being exists only in our immagination, then it cannot be the greatest being
4) This means God must exist

Then there's the Argument from Design (teleological) which is the standard Intelligent Design argument. Basically stating that the universe is too complex to have come about by pure random chance

And to wrap up the Big Three, the Cosmological Argument, which is what lkavadas is arguing for. Basically it states that in theory we could trace every effect back to its cause, but in the near certainty that the Universe (in its current and past states) isn't infinately old, there has to have been an Ultimate Cause. Something had to have created the first cause, and that creator is God.

Now to the counter arguments:
For the Ontological argument the definition of greatness is very convoluted and varies from person to person. If there was a unified definition of greatness, then this might hold some water, but it doesn't.

The Teleological Argument is a circular one. To be designed requires a complexity greater than that it created, so what created the greater complexity? Only something of even greater complexity and so on...

And finally for the cosmological argument. In quantum mechanics, things can "just happen" without any explanation. Maybe that's how we came to be, a "just happened" event. Or there is of course the possibility that there is a Grand Shaper out there, but why make that Grand Shaper into that of the Christian deity, or the Egyptian deities, Greek deities, Aboriginal deities, D&D deities etc. There most likely isn't all of those deities up there, so which one is the "right" one. Maybe none of them are.

Who knows, maybe the Scientologists have the right belief system.

Because he told me so. Like once a day he tells me how he created the universe and everything. Which was ok at first, but jeez Tammuz, enough is enough.


Anyway, to get on the real matter at hand.

There is really no way anyone can prove the any sort of deity exists.

I believe in a higher-power. I don't know who it is, I'll find out when I'm dead.

However, science can't explain away everything(yet). There are a lot of weird things in this world, things that just defy any sort of logic, things that make one think "ok, so maybe someone is looking out for me."

It really is a nice thought, in these times, believing that someone permanently has your back. It's comforting. It kind of puts some perspective on our lives, considering how short they are. If this is all there is, if our fate is to just rot in the ground, kind of makes it pointless to do anything(when family isn't concerned)

Mkall wrote:And finally for the cosmological argument. In quantum mechanics, things can "just happen" without any explanation.

Can it? Like what? I'm not doubting you, I just don't know anything about quantum mechanics, to be frank.

Senor Hugo wrote:Because he told me so. Like once a day he tells me how he created the universe and everything. Which was ok at first, but jeez Tammuz, enough is enough.


Anyway, to get on the real matter at hand.

There is really no way anyone can prove the any sort of deity exists.

I believe in a higher-power. I don't know who it is, I'll find out when I'm dead.

However, science can't explain away everything(yet). There are a lot of weird things in this world, things that just defy any sort of logic, things that make one think "ok, so maybe someone is looking out for me."

It really is a nice thought, in these times, believing that someone permanently has your back. It's comforting. It kind of puts some perspective on our lives, considering how short they are. If this is all there is, if our fate is to just rot in the ground, kind of makes it pointless to do anything(when family isn't concerned)

There was a time when science could not explain how lightning worked either. As time went on, it figured it out. I can see how believing that something greater than you has your back can be comforting, but I wouldn't call that evidence of any kind.

Is there really no hard evidence at all?

Professor Smooth wrote:There was a time when science could not explain how lightning worked either. As time went on, it figured it out. I can see how believing that something greater than you has your back can be comforting, but I wouldn't call that evidence of any kind.

Is there really no hard evidence at all?

Well asking for hard evidence is kind of stacking the deck. Saying theres hard evidence that God exists, means we can prove that God, or some deity out there exists.

If I said I had a toenail clipping from God. It's the same as the fuzzy video-tape of Bigfoot. It's "evidence" but it can also be debunked, rather easily.

The only way for any deity to show up and prove that they exist, is if they show up on national TV to the whole world, and do something awesome to demonstrate their power.

But even then, as we grow more knowledgeable in the ways of science, we could just prove that these deities were nothing more than beings with a higher understanding of technology than us.

Those who say "I can prove God/Zeus/Thor etc exist" are lying their asses off. Proof doesn't equal beliefs.

Sure, you can believe that God exists. I can believe that I have a spirit guide, or a guardian angle.

But can I prove it? Not really.

However, not being able to prove that something does exist. Doesn't mean that that is proof that it doesn't exist.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

I can't prove that ghosts exist. However, that doesn't mean that they don't. I've personally experienced things that I could not explain by any scientific means, I tried. However, when you hear your name being said numerous times, and start seeing white shadows walk in front of you. You're left with two options. You're going insane, or you saw/heard a ghost. I know I'm not that crazy, yet.

It seems, Professor, that you are asking for something that is nigh-on impossible. If evidence supporting such a higher power existed, surely we would all know of it. It would be widely reported as we would have proven the existence of God (or whatever higher power).

Even if science could explain everything, it wouldn't disprove the existence of God. Science could just be a machination of God. Add to that the fact that if God is omnipotent then he could easily engineer a world in which no evidence of his/her/its existence could be found.

There really isn't any "hard evidence" that God exists, but then, that doesn't prove that he doesn't. It doesn't debase the validity of a belief in a higher power.

Are you familiar with the concept of "burden of proof?"

Yes, of course! Why do you ask?

Leonardo wrote:Yes, of course! Why do you ask?

Were I to tell you that I have a dinosaur in my apartment, the burden of proof would be on me. You would not have to prove that I don't have a dinosaur. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. In this case, the claim is that "there is a God." I find the idea interesting. An all-powerful supreme being. But I would like to see some evidence.

Disproving anything is difficult. For example, I doubt that you could disprove that the creepy guy you work with is a vampire, alien, or superhero.

The closest thing to "evidence" towards the existence of a Supreme Being is that such a creature can not be entirely disproved. I think that's very strange.

O, of course, but like I said before, as far as I'm aware, there is no solid evidence to prove the existence of God. However, that does not completely prove he does not exist. If someone said to me, "Your mother is thinking about hats", I could not prove that she was. I could ask her, but even if she said she was, there's no way to prove that she is actually thinking about hats. I only have her word; she could be lying. This is essentially the crux of what I was saying; not being able to prove one proposition doesn't automatically make an alternative proposition any more valid.

You're right about attempting to disprove things. It is very difficult. In fact, while I've admitted I've never seen proof of God's existence, I've never seen proof of his absence, either.

Another thing to remember, although this doesn't apply to me personally, is that a lot of people who believe in God claim to have had personal experiences with God. In such cases, they couldn't prove even those experiences, let alone the existence of God. It would be impossible, much like me trying to prove to you I had a certain dream last night.

Essentially, if someone believes in God, I don't think the burden of proof notion applies, unless they are trying to convert me (or someone else), in which case I would demand evidence in order to convert me. It's entirely their belief, and since there's nothing to disprove it, is entirely valid. Also, if they could prove it, then their belief would become knowledge. Consequently, they would no longer be believing, they would be knowing, and therefore they wouldn't have actually proved they believe in God, only that they know of God. So really, no-one could prove their beliefs, unless they were talking retrospectively.

If I may shift the topic a bit. What would you consider to be evidence of God's absence?

Professor Smooth wrote:If I may shift the topic a bit. What would you consider to be evidence of God's absence?

I was thinking about asking you what you might consider to be evidence of his presence!

I really don't know. As we've said, it really is hard to prove the absence of something. Maybe if I died yet still had some sort of ethereal conscience, and that conscience realised there was nothing beyond death but a void, then I would be more inclined to believe he didn't exist. I still wouldn't be 100% convinced, though. Also, if I still had a conscience, would that not suggest there's more to life than the mortal realm? Certainly that would again, to me, open up the possibility of a higher being.

In short, there's nothing I can conceive of that would prove his absence. That's not to say such evidence isn't out there, though. I just can't comprehend what it might be at the present time.

How about yourself?

Leonardo wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote:If I may shift the topic a bit. What would you consider to be evidence of God's absence?

I was thinking about asking you what you might consider to be evidence of his presence!

I really don't know. As we've said, it really is hard to prove the absence of something. Maybe if I died yet still had some sort of ethereal conscience, and that conscience realised there was nothing beyond death but a void, then I would be more inclined to believe he didn't exist. I still wouldn't be 100% convinced, though. Also, if I still had a conscience, would that not suggest there's more to life than the mortal realm? Certainly that would again, to me, open up the possibility of a higher being.

In short, there's nothing I can conceive of that would prove his absence. That's not to say such evidence isn't out there, though. I just can't comprehend what it might be at the present time.

How about yourself?

Yep. Other side of death type stuff. I suppose if I woke up after my death in some manner of afterlife, I'd have to go, "huh. Guess I was wrong."

God as a concept is not nearly as unbelievable, though, as the Gods of The Bible, The Koran, etc. I think you'll agree with me there.

God as a concept is believable, certainly, and it is a much easier pill to swallow. I certainly don't believe in the Gods of the Bible, Koran, etc. I'm not a religious man. I can truly believe in a higher power, though, even if the only manifestation of that power in our world is Mother Nature.

May I ask, in a thread like this, what kind of things could people say that would be valid evidence for God's existence? Could anything be said at all? I'm assuming that you're not going to take personal experiences as a convincing argument!

I'll listen to anything people have to say. I figure if so many people believe it, then there has to be some reason. I tried explaining Christianity to a Japanese friend and he looked at me like I was from Mars.