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Souls

Welcome to the General Discussion area where just about anything goes! This area is designed to discuss all matters and does not necessarily have to be Transformers related. Please keep topics relevant.

Postby DesalationReborn » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:45 pm

VecPrime wrote:"Am I right in thinking that you're saying due to quantum theory of some kind, we may actually be able to control our own impulses and synapses?"

At the very least, there is a random element no one can predict. At the most, we may have just found the mechanism of souls, the "Scroll of Colors" in EQ parlance.

>

Hmm. Talbot and Goswami do a good job of it. But their point is, if you hook a machine up to a Schrodinger's Cat experiment, the machine picks up on the dead/alive cat dichotomy until such a time as someone observes the readout.

Thus, if we were just as physical as the meter, we too would pick up on the dichotomy and the universe would go nowhere.
(this problem is called a Von Neumann chain.)

However, somehow, we provide the necessary observational power to collapse the wave function of the cat or electron from slightly...outside... the purely physical, from the quantum.

Thus, we may very well be the universe/God observing itself.


Well, seeing as our synapses are us in any extent, we'd definitely have an effect on how they fire.

As such, although I am currently in favor of the deterministic model, that only really helps us in predicting into the future if all possible data in a given area of space is possessed, the position and action of all matter and energy in the area, a near insurmountable task at this point in time due to the very problem you mentioned, and, even then, only forward for short periods, due to the fact that variables outside the sphere, new particles and energy, appear in the area of interest almost instantaneously.

To truly understand everything that is happening and will happen in any section of the universe, you need all the data and positioning of matter and energy for a single instant for the whole universe, which is unimaginable at this point in history. Thus, the mystery remains, and what we are left with incomplete data.

And here we find the usefulness of probability, which essentially states, out of all scenarios with this given data, this ratio of them form such and such an outcome. As such, how likely the scenario from which your data is taken will form the outcome desired. Incomplete, but very useful in itself, and thus creates the "illusion" of choice and maintains the mystery of the cosmos. We choose what to due, but they are the result and fulfillment of a course unknown to us. So we graph our options as best we can, a psudo-omen of the future, and continue on.

This makes things more interesting and helps uphold a person's urge to fulfill their will, though many would still fight to the death for what they want despite the knowledge of failure. It's a quality I admire and aspire to.

I'd note this thinking does not lead to Stalinism, but rather simply admits all roads are open (possible), ie. ne preference, and not barred by supernatural forces. Abet we are 'machines,' that does not mean we cannot be valued-- nothing has value unless someone places one on it. Buddhism (actually an atheistic 'religion'-- it can be debated) actually favors a universal model similar to such described, and in their best forms they're hardly genocidal, if even insectacidal.

The "everything that is nothing", the intertwining of all existence without true individual forms, but merely rising and falling consciousnesses in a single tapestry is the soul of many sect's aspiration to Nirvana-- not the ascension to immortality, but the realization that one is already part of eternity. I happen to generally agree with the model, and had a concept even prior to reading up on it from studying atomic theory and biology.
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Postby Tammuz » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:24 pm

VecPrime wrote:any good scientific thewory should be predictive.

Can we yet calculate out how a person's life is going to run based on their childhood and genes?



No, and we probably never will. I hope not at any rate. What would be worse is if those in power pretended to be able to do that, and use it as an excuse to liquidate ethnic groups secretly.

Wait, thats happened. Russia.


actually yes, many fatal congenital genetic diseases can give a predicted age of death, tay-sachs springs to mind,
though this is of course ignoring that many factors apart from genes and childhood affect the length of your life. and the fact that our scientific understanding of childhood is quite lacking.


VecPrime wrote:As for explaining a quantum-mechanical interface...as i said, lots of electrons making up your brain signals there one way or another. All are subject to Heisenberg, Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen, et al quantum physics laws. If these laws, like other physical laws, are really calculating other forces involved in the quantum realm, then it stands to reason that its possible that at the very least we can interface with it and get something out of it. The holographic paradigm, which explains EPR and a fair amount of everything in the Standard Model (and more!), completes the picture.

anyhow, due to THAT, best we might ever be able to do is say that there's a x% chance of a person doing something. x could be like 99% if a person has two genes for schizophrenia, or lower in other cases, but we can never say for certain that a particular person is going to do something, bad or good.


I really am having a hard time arguing with this as i just don't grasp what this holographic theory is, you haven't explained very well, or at all. you can't just say Go read this! and expect people to catch up. explain yourself better.

and i'm even less sure as how any of this indicates that we a soul as if the Holographic paradigm rests on quantumn mechanics then it needs space time to work, in the classical definition of a soul is something that is immortal, and thus doesn't need time(and thus space aswell,as the theory of relativity makes them pretty much an inseperable union) quantumn mechanincs pretty much is Space time.

also how does affecting the electrons in our brains prove the existence of souls?any good scientific theory should be predictive, what are the predictions of the holographic pardigm? what does it predict about souls?
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Postby Jar Axel » Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:04 am

Sorry havn't had time to get on the computer lately my car was in the shop; funny thing though when your riding with someone else you have time to do some reading of more conventional materials.

Synapse fireing is mearly the electrical part of the thought process (not even the begining of it). In the past this was measured as comeing before the "consious" brain activity. In truth this is not true as what was being measured as being the consious brain activity is nothing of the sort, but the same activity as occures in muscles after use has begune; ie: the increased blood flow and oxegen absorbstion cause by the muscles becoming active. In effect what was being measured as consious brain activity was actualy the result of brain activity period.

What Dark Zarak is refering to as differing levels of thought are actualy nothing more than differeing levels of awarness. There are many cases of individuals who are able to react to stimuly even as there synapses are firing from the stimuly leading to the apearance of superhuman speed or precognition. (It should be noted that such people are extream examples of humanity such as martial arts masters and others who must be able to function on the edge of rediness.) In short the average person is simply "slow".
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Postby Just Negare » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:07 pm

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I don't think there can be a scientific explanation for the soul, because if science could prove the existance or substance of the soul, it'd sorta defeat the purpose.

As it were, I beleive only people have souls, and that it exists from the moment of conception, and that when we die, the soul goes whereever our lifes actions dictate.

Animals have "mortal souls", they're only in existance when they're alive, when they snuff it, that's it for them.
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Postby Cowboy Bebop » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:35 pm

Poohy Ol' Negare wrote:I don't think there can be a scientific explanation for the soul, because if science could prove the existance or substance of the soul, it'd sorta defeat the purpose.

As it were, I beleive only people have souls, and that it exists from the moment of conception, and that when we die, the soul goes whereever our lifes actions dictate.

Animals have "mortal souls", they're only in existance when they're alive, when they snuff it, that's it for them.


not tryng to argue the exhistence of souls but what does being a human and being an animal have to do with afterlife? humans are animals, so wouldn't it be the same for all of us? snuffed out at the end? or in the afterlife with our pets?
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Postby Handels-Messerschmitt » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:08 am

Poohy Ol' Negare wrote:I don't think there can be a scientific explanation for the soul, because if science could prove the existance or substance of the soul, it'd sorta defeat the purpose.


How, though? What is the purpose anyway? If we really do have something like a soul then I'm sure there could be some medical application of knowledge about them. They'd be part of our anatomy, after all.
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Postby Professor Smooth » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:22 am

Poohy Ol' Negare wrote:I don't think there can be a scientific explanation for the soul, because if science could prove the existance or substance of the soul, it'd sorta defeat the purpose.

As it were, I beleive only people have souls, and that it exists from the moment of conception, and that when we die, the soul goes whereever our lifes actions dictate.

Animals have "mortal souls", they're only in existance when they're alive, when they snuff it, that's it for them.


That's quite an interesting theory. What are you basing it on?
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just to let you guys know..

Postby VecPrime » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:50 am

Tammuz and everyone:

Still formulating theory. Loading, please wait :P

Hey, i wanna make sure its a good one.
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Postby Devastator » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:39 am

If people want to debate how the soul is connected to the human body that's fine. What I can't stand is people arguing whether or not the soul exists. We have, beyond a shadow of a doubt, PROOF of the human soul.

"The Blacks" as I like to call them have developed something called "soul food." Why would we need to give food to a soul if it didn't exist? If you don't believe in a human soul I guess that makes you a racist.
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Postby Professor Smooth » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:03 am

Devastator wrote:If people want to debate how the soul is connected to the human body that's fine. What I can't stand is people arguing whether or not the soul exists. We have, beyond a shadow of a doubt, PROOF of the human soul.

"The Blacks" as I like to call them have developed something called "soul food." Why would we need to give food to a soul if it didn't exist? If you don't believe in a human soul I guess that makes you a racist.


...

I got nothin'.

Beers?
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Postby Handels-Messerschmitt » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:33 am

That was brilliant. Best $30 I ever spent.

Good posting!
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Postby Nightracer GT » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:40 am

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Devastator wrote:"The Blacks" as I like to call them have developed something called "soul food." Why would we need to give food to a soul if it didn't exist? If you don't believe in a human soul I guess that makes you a racist.


Actually, saying "'The Blacks' as I like to call them" makes you a racsist.


And that's as much proof that a soul exists as it is proof there's no life on the sun.

Soul is a cultural element, named because everything in it has a very impressive, fun, yet down to earth quality. It has heart. It has soul. It's what's known as a figure of speech. Soul food is a cooking style that goes with it. It's a figure of speech.
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Postby Devastator » Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:28 am

The Lead Balloon Award goes to the ever clueless Dark Zarak!

If there was life on the sun, it would surely be a homosexual paradise. Think of all the flamers that could fit on it sister!
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