The Energon Pub

Sledge wrote:opposing armies generally prefer not to have their headquarters next door to each other.

Here's an idea, instead of looking at it as an apartment or they're right next door to eachother look at it this way.

If the U.S. was at war with China do you think the U.S. Millitary would go to China and station a base somewhere near them or do you think they're going to travel back and forth between the U.S. and China every day?

We know that there wasn't alot of energy sources left on Cybertron that's why they left the planet in the first place. Do you really think they could even fight a war at all on limited energy if they were not somewhere near eachother?

Megatron: Decepticons retreat!

Optimus Prime: We did it Autobots now it'll be another year or more before Megatron can scrouge up enough energy to attack us again. I'm so glad their base is so far away they can't attack us every day.

I always assumed the entirety of Iacon was within the dome, but that it was a massive city nonetheless. But that's all open to interpretation and speculation.

Now, from what we know from the cartoon, Iacon is at least implied to be, if not outright stated, the Autobots' primary city, though I'm sure there are others. Iacon is the central city for Autobot power on Cybertron. However, sometime between the launch of the Ark and the awakening in 1984, Iacon seems to have been abandoned. Even if there were very few Autobots left on Cybertron, why would they abandon Iacon and/or go into hiding unless Iacon was under Decepticon control?

And since Shockwave was basically keeping Cybertron running all those years and seemed to be in near absolute control of the planet, wouldn't it be logical for him to at least spend some time in or around Iacon? Especially since Iacon was probably the least run-down city on the planet, with the most energy reserves and remaining functional equipment. All the things Shockwave would need or want in his millenias of solitude. And even if that's not the case, I'm sure he visited for other reasons. As a Decepticon, I'm sure he took pride in standing amid the ruins of the once-great city of his enemies.

So, I dont think the cartoon really tells us or even hints one way or another, but I definitely think it's a possibility that he was in or near Iacon.

However, to venture in Marvel comic continuity for a minute... Nevermind, I had a whole speech planned about how he could have been in one of the Decepticon cities named in the comics (Polyhex and Darkmount) but then I recalled that in the Marvel series, Shockwave left Cybertron and came to Earth while the other TFs were still dormant in the Ark. He ran around killing Dinosaurs, til the Ark's computer created the Dinobots to stop him.

However, would you guys consider Polyhex and Darkmount to exist on G1 Cartoon Cybertron even though they aren't mentioned by name? Not whether or not Shockwave is in one of them, cause that's a moot point we could debate til the cows come home. Just would you consider Polyhex and Darkmount to be acceptable as cities even within Cartoon Continuity?

I'm really at a loss to see quite what you're trying to say, Saber. It seems to change everytime you post. You seem to be making some kind of bizarre point that Shockwave was based in Iacon because Wheeljack only drove eight miles. Could you possibly, without posting three times in a row, explain your point?

Sledge wrote:I'm really at a loss to see quite what you're trying to say, Saber. It seems to change everytime you post. You seem to be making some kind of bizarre point that Shockwave was based in Iacon because Wheeljack only drove eight miles. Could you possibly, without posting three times in a row, explain your point?

I'm not going to exsplain anything till you can quote me properly.

Come to think of it you've never once quoted me properly on anything. You just make stuff up as you go it seems. Well this time I'm making you post a proper quote of course you won't find one because I never said it.

You are going to quote me properly from now on. I'm not going to respond to you anymore on things I've never said.

Here's what I actully said.

Look at the first episode. They mention the name Iacon as the Autobot's city/base/head quarters. How far do they travel to get from where ever they're at back to Iacon. Maybe like 8 miles.

Whenever they take Megatron's space bridge back to Cybertron they're presumably going back to Iacon (especially in one episode where Wheeljack has to got into his work shop on Cybertron) How far do they travel between Shockwave's location to Wheeljack's shop? Not verry far at all.

Here's your version of what I said.

Shockwave was based in Iacon because Wheeljack only drove eight miles

That right there shows me you don't read my posts but rather just skim through them and condence them into things that make no sence.

You wanna understand what I'm telling you actully read the entire post. Not just that part I put in bold that from your quote seems to be the only thing you read.

If you don't have time to read the post entirly and respond properly don't respond at all till you do have the time. You can't possibly understand anything without actuly reading the entire post.

First off, I can't quote you because you tend to post three or four posts in a row. Unless I start cutting and pasting from individual posts, there's no way to quote everything you've said.

Next, simply explain what you mean. If what you've said is so simple to understand, it'll be simple for you to type it out in a single, brief post. For example, my point is that the terms "Ark" and "Nemesis" were never used in the G1 cartoon. Furthermore, Decepticon headquarters were not in Iacon. So, what is your simple response to that?

Unless I start cutting and pasting from individual posts, there's no way to quote everything you've said.

I did that a few posts ago quoteing myself. You don't even have to go back any pages. There's just 3 posts on page 7. If I can do the cut and past thing so can you.

Still not answering my question, are you? I'm beginning to think that you've confused yourself with all the assorted junk you've posted, and you no longer know what you were trying to say, or why.

Oh, by the way: if you do intend to quote me, quote the whole thing, instead of cutting out a little bit to change it's meaning. And you're STILL doing the "several posts in a row" thing. For crying out loud, use the EDIT button if you need to add something.

Ok, time to cool your jets guys.

I think at 8 pages it's time to agree to disagree.

I believe a lot of this stems from a fundamental conflict between two types of fans.

Type I) Believes in logic and fact. Making assumptions and being incorrect can have dire consequences in real life, and they apply that philosophy continuously to every aspect of their life. BEcause of this, they prefer to keep all renditions of a fictional universe completely seperate, and feel that an individual can't, by the rules of logic, infer something about one continuity based on other continuities. Generally resorts to regarding Type II individuals as stupid or immature.

Type II) Believes that logic and fact are all well and good for real life, but that when dealing with a fictional multiverse filled with retcons and continuity errors, rigorous maintenance of logic and fact are inane. Essentially, they could be like Type I, but don't see it as being any fun. Therefore, like a Paleontologist might make inferences about one partial skeleton based on another partial skeleton, Type II fans speculate about one partially described universe based on another partially described universe. Essentially, they like to try and fill in the gaps to arrive at the most 'complete' universe possible. Generally resort to regarding Type I as narrowminded killjoys.

So basically, here we have two Type Is versus one Type II. The Type Is are getting bent out of shape because Type II is making illogical conclusions. The Type II doesn't understand why they're bent out of shape, because to him, one needn't be so uptight about a fictional reality - afterall, what is the harm in being wrong.

Which means you guys are never going to arrive at an agreement, or convince eachother of your argument, so like I said, agree to disagree and move on.

On another note, I would propose that the Cybertron in the original cartoon had no cities. I can't recall any facts that would support this line of thinking, other than the apparent curvature of the planet when they were on it and the size of the buildings seen from orbit, but it always seemed to me that Cybertron was much smaller in the G1 Cartoon than it was in any other continuity since. I think the cartoon's writers might have seen Cybertron as a single super-city, and to them, Iacon was simply the Autobots' name for their HQ (equivalent to "Autobase" in the comics).

I've been trying to figure out a way to calculate Cybertron's hypothetical size out of curiosity, but haven't arrived at a good method yet.

Hmm, it's probably going to involve screenshots from The Ultimate Doom, and lengthy workings out of how far Cybertron was from Earth at that time. Not something I want to try.

As for the other issue, what is annoying to me is Saber's willingness to pull totally unsupported suppositions out of thin air, and then insist they support his argument. That and his posting two or three mahoosive posts in a row that don't address a simple question. If you recall, this started with Saber's assertion that various terms were used in the G1 cartoon. I asked for proof of that, and everything went tits up from there. Thing is, what we're discussing isn't really a question of how "real" we should treat a fictional reality. If you assert that a term was used in a TV show, it should be easy enough to prove.

Sledge wrote:Hmm, it's probably going to involve screenshots from The Ultimate Doom, and lengthy workings out of how far Cybertron was from Earth at that time. Not something I want to try.

Well, we know one constant about Cybertron - It's gravity is roughly equal to Earth. In all depictions I know of, humans are able to run about on Cybertron as if it had normal gravity and Earth-like Atmosphere.

We can't make the same statement about the moons of course because the only human we see on them is Spike, who is wearing an exosuit.

As for the other issue, what is annoying to me is Saber's willingness to pull totally unsupported suppositions out of thin air, and then insist they support his argument.

That's where the Type I vs Type II thing comes in. Different fundamental approaches, with each of you fundamentally disagreeing with the other's approach. If the past is any indicator, you aren't going to change that.

That and his posting two or three mahoosive posts in a row that don't address a simple question.

The multi-posting is getting annoying, but I'm being forgiving so far because the length of his posts would actually make it awkward to post the full thing in one post. And as far as I know, failure to be concise doesn't violate any regs.

If you recall, this started with Saber's assertion that various terms were used in the G1 cartoon. I asked for proof of that, and everything went tits up from there. Thing is, what we're discussing isn't really a question of how "real" we should treat a fictional reality. If you assert that a term was used in a TV show, it should be easy enough to prove.

Okay, reading back, here's how it goes as far as I can tell:
[paraphrasing]

Sto: Beast Wars follows the Comic because so many things are mentioned in BW that weren't in the cartoon.
Saber: Actually, all of those things did appear in the cartoon...

And that's when it gets confusing. You guys required that the stuff actually be named in the cartoon, while he was really only attending to whether or not they appeared. The Ark and The Nemesis may never have been named in the cartoon, but the ships depicted in Beast Wars were visually identical to the ships depicted in the G1 Cartoon, rather than how they appeared in the comic. So, if you place equal emphasis on both what is said and what is seen, The Ark in Beast Wars appears both in the Comic (name) and in the Cartoon (image).

And again, here's the perspective difference: to Saber (and to me actually) the fact that the ship is called The Ark in Beast Wars and not called something else in the G1 cartoon, is sufficient grounds to refer to the G1 cartoon ship as The Ark.

AS to the original topic, I used to believe BW was an extension of the Marvel Comics, especially since a whole lot of Retcons were done afterward to make it sync up better with G2. I got in a lot of arguments with people back in the day that said it was based on the cartoon. In retrospect, there is nearly equal evidence either way, which leads me to conclude, that Beast Wars must be the future of an additional G1 continuity that combines features of the Cartoon and the Comic.

If you could find someone who knows physics well enough, they might be able to come up with weight/distance figures for Cybertron and it's relationship to Earth in those episodes based on the effects it had on Earth's weather. But that is getting far more technical than even I can be bothered with.

And yes, I'd agree that BW doesn't gel with the G1 cartoon. Sparks are what does it for me. If these things are so important, how come no one in 90-odd episodes mentioned them? I know people try and argue that laser cores are something to do with sparks, but... it's kinda weak, isn't it? Better just to accept that BW is set in a continuity similar to G1, but not the same. Hmm, that thought makes me feel happier about BW.

Sledge wrote:If you could find someone who knows physics well enough, they might be able to come up with weight/distance figures for Cybertron and it's relationship to Earth in those episodes based on the effects it had on Earth's weather. But that is getting far more technical than even I can be bothered with.

Well, if gravity on Cybertron is equal to Earth, then the Mass has to be the same - just south of 6.0 × 10^24 kg. So density is the question then...

And yes, I'd agree that BW doesn't gel with the G1 cartoon. Sparks are what does it for me. If these things are so important, how come no one in 90-odd episodes mentioned them? I know people try and argue that laser cores are something to do with sparks, but... it's kinda weak, isn't it? Better just to accept that BW is set in a continuity similar to G1, but not the same. Hmm, that thought makes me feel happier about BW.

The Spark thing could be passed off as something that is mentioned in Beast Wars because the Maximals and Predacons understand it better than the Autobots and Decepticons, but even so, there are some more obvious things that don't line up.

For example, in Beast Wars Starscream was killed by Galvatron, as in the G1 Cartoon. In the G1/G2 Comics though, Starscream is alive and well all the way to the end of the series, long after Galvatron was slain by Fort Max. That's a clear contradiction between Beast Wars and the Comic, much more substantial that the fact that the Hate Plague, Vector Sigma, and Plasma Energy Chamber are mentioned in the Cartoon but not the Comic. Additionally, Beast Machines suggests that Cybertron was an organic planet before being mechaformed into the planet we know. This of course majorly contradicts the G1 Comic.

On the otherhand, the spirituality of the Matrix is more heavily emphasized throughout BW/BM, which jives more with the Comic than the Cartoon, and going by the new stuff, Prowl and Ironhide are still alive in Beast Wars, which contradicts the G1 Cartoon, and the Swarm becomes the Vok after merging with the Matrix - which in the cartoon was used up to purge the Hate Plague.

So yeah, a seperate, hybrid continuity seems the best solution.

Here's another thing I'm not sure about though - If I recall correctly, Energon was never mentioned in the Comics. This then would be another instance of BW following the cartoon continuity rather than the comic continuity.

Savage wrote:I always assumed the entirety of Iacon was within the dome, but that it was a massive city nonetheless. But that's all open to interpretation and speculation.

Now, from what we know from the cartoon, Iacon is at least implied to be, if not outright stated, the Autobots' primary city, though I'm sure there are others. Iacon is the central city for Autobot power on Cybertron. However, sometime between the launch of the Ark and the awakening in 1984, Iacon seems to have been abandoned. Even if there were very few Autobots left on Cybertron, why would they abandon Iacon and/or go into hiding unless Iacon was under Decepticon control?

And since Shockwave was basically keeping Cybertron running all those years and seemed to be in near absolute control of the planet, wouldn't it be logical for him to at least spend some time in or around Iacon? Especially since Iacon was probably the least run-down city on the planet, with the most energy reserves and remaining functional equipment. All the things Shockwave would need or want in his millenias of solitude. And even if that's not the case, I'm sure he visited for other reasons. As a Decepticon, I'm sure he took pride in standing amid the ruins of the once-great city of his enemies.

So, I dont think the cartoon really tells us or even hints one way or another, but I definitely think it's a possibility that he was in or near Iacon.

However, to venture in Marvel comic continuity for a minute... Nevermind, I had a whole speech planned about how he could have been in one of the Decepticon cities named in the comics (Polyhex and Darkmount) but then I recalled that in the Marvel series, Shockwave left Cybertron and came to Earth while the other TFs were still dormant in the Ark. He ran around killing Dinosaurs, til the Ark's computer created the Dinobots to stop him.

However, would you guys consider Polyhex and Darkmount to exist on G1 Cartoon Cybertron even though they aren't mentioned by name? Not whether or not Shockwave is in one of them, cause that's a moot point we could debate til the cows come home. Just would you consider Polyhex and Darkmount to be acceptable as cities even within Cartoon Continuity?

Anything is possible and I could ascept Polyhex and Darkmount as citys on Cybertron.But at the same time I'm of the mind that Iacon in the G1 toon may not be a city at all because it was not portrayed as such in the toon.

Caelus wrote:
The Spark thing could be passed off as something that is mentioned in Beast Wars because the Maximals and Predacons understand it better than the Autobots and Decepticons, but even so, there are some more obvious things that don't line up.

I've been saying that for some time

Caelus wrote:For example, in Beast Wars Starscream was killed by Galvatron, as in the G1 Cartoon. In the G1/G2 Comics though, Starscream is alive and well all the way to the end of the series, long after Galvatron was slain by Fort Max. That's a clear contradiction between Beast Wars and the Comic,

We dont know for sure if Starscream was killed again in Ghost in the Machine.We only know that he was never seen again. Also its possible that Galvatron also could have survived the fight with Fortress Maximus and could have returned later if the G2 comic wasnt canceled.

Caelus wrote: much more substantial that the fact that the Hate Plague, Vector Sigma, and Plasma Energy Chamber are mentioned in the Cartoon but not the Comic.

As you said before it could have been just unknowen in the comic universe......but I know thats assuming alot.

Caelus wrote: Additionally, Beast Machines suggests that Cybertron was an organic planet before being mechaformed into the planet we know. This of course majorly contradicts the G1 Comic.

Thats not to much of a contradiction considering that all meteor's and asteroid's in space carry some organic material on or inside them.But what ssems to be a point of conflict with the comics is the fossil's found on Cybertron.

Caelus wrote: Prowl and Ironhide are still alive in Beast Wars, which contradicts the G1 Cartoon,

Ironhide being alive in Beast Wars contradicts the comics too.......he died again in the G2 comic.

Caelus wrote:and the Swarm becomes the Vok after merging with the Matrix - which in the cartoon was used up to purge the Hate Plague.

You lost me here.

Caelus wrote:So yeah, a seperate, hybrid continuity seems the best solution.

I have always said that it had to be a 4th G1 universe that the Beast shows were connect to.But I have also said that if your not willing to asept the possibilty of a 4th G1 universe then the Beast shows fit more eazly into the Marvel G1/G2 comic universe with out so many clairing contradictions.

Caelus wrote:Here's another thing I'm not sure about though - If I recall correctly, Energon was never mentioned in the Comics. This then would be another instance of BW following the cartoon continuity rather than the comic continuity.

I dont think that Energon was referred to by name in the comic but thats the equivalnt of then not naming the ships in the toon.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Caelus wrote: Additionally, Beast Machines suggests that Cybertron was an organic planet before being mechaformed into the planet we know. This of course majorly contradicts the G1 Comic.

Thats not to much of a contradiction considering that all meteor's and asteroid's in space carry some organic material on or inside them.But what ssems to be a point of conflict with the comics is the fossil's found on Cybertron.

The fossils were what I was referring to - pretty slim chance there'd be any in an asteroid. Although, it's pretty slim chance that an alien planet would have fossilized Earth creatures.

Caelus wrote: Prowl and Ironhide are still alive in Beast Wars, which contradicts the G1 Cartoon,

Ironhide being alive in Beast Wars contradicts the comics too.......he died again in the G2 comic.

Which battle? I don't remember him biting the dust. Was it when Grimlock led the illfated attack on the G2 Cybertronians? Seems like I remember Red Alert at least going down in that one.

Caelus wrote:and the Swarm becomes the Vok after merging with the Matrix - which in the cartoon was used up to purge the Hate Plague.

You lost me here.

At the end of G2, Optimus sacrifices himself to the Swarm, which was essentially a living but souless biproduct of the Transformers, clumsily seeking 'enlightment'. Exposure to the Matrix within Prime finally gives them a soul though, and IIRC, they vow to use their new found power to spread life. It is implied that the Matrix becomes one with the Swarm, and therefore no longer exists as a tangibl artifact. Post Beast Wars Retconning by one of the writers said that the Vok were the Ascended form of the Swarm, traveling through space and time seeding planets with life. So, once again Beast Wars connects with the Comics.

In the final episodes of the G1 Cartoon however, the Matrix is literally used up to cure everyone of the Hate Plague, which is referenced as history in Beast Machines. So once again you're back to a 4th or 5th G1 continuity - one where either the Hate Plague was a conventional disease cured by conventional means, or one where they managed to replenish the Matrix after using it against the plague (which Optimus implied was possible at the end of the final episode).

Caelus wrote:So yeah, a seperate, hybrid continuity seems the best solution.

I have always said that it had to be a 4th G1 universe that the Beast shows were connect to.But I have also said that if your not willing to asept the possibilty of a 4th G1 universe then the Beast shows fit more eazly into the Marvel G1/G2 comic universe with out so many clairing contradictions.

Partially I think that's because 92 Comic issues seemed to give us more "material" and depth than the 3 seasons of the Cartoon. So assuming that Beast Wars pulled on material proportionately, it would wind up pulling more on the comic.

Caelus wrote:Here's another thing I'm not sure about though - If I recall correctly, Energon was never mentioned in the Comics. This then would be another instance of BW following the cartoon continuity rather than the comic continuity.

I dont think that Energon was referred to by name in the comic but thats the equivalnt of then not naming the ships in the toon.

*After skimming through the first six issues*

Indeed; The Transformers appear to not be able to use Fossil Fuels or charge themselves from something like a nuclear reactor. They are wholly dependent on a particular, unnamed by highly advanced fuel. Basically, it does match the description for Energon. The difference is it isn't named and the Transformers don't know how to convert traditonal energy sources into it as they did in the cartoon.

Caelus wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Caelus wrote: Additionally, Beast Machines suggests that Cybertron was an organic planet before being mechaformed into the planet we know. This of course majorly contradicts the G1 Comic.

Thats not to much of a contradiction considering that all meteor's and asteroid's in space carry some organic material on or inside them.But what ssems to be a point of conflict with the comics is the fossil's found on Cybertron.

The fossils were what I was referring to - pretty slim chance there'd be any in an asteroid. Although, it's pretty slim chance that an alien planet would have fossilized Earth creatures.

Theres no reason to belieave that they were fossilized Earth creatures.....this is Si-Fi after all and simular life forms have been seen on other planets in every medium of Si-Fi since its inception.Even in Marvel comics we are selfs arent very much differen looking then the Kree.....and DC comics has Krypton and its inhabitants that look like us and even their dogs look like ours.The same argument could be used to explain those fossil's on Beast Machines.

An other explaination is that Primus could have plased himself inside a hunk of earth that may have been floating around after one of our owen astoroide impacts.

Caelus wrote:

Caelus wrote: Prowl and Ironhide are still alive in Beast Wars, which contradicts the G1 Cartoon,

Ironhide being alive in Beast Wars contradicts the comics too.......he died again in the G2 comic.

Which battle? I don't remember him biting the dust. Was it when Grimlock led the illfated attack on the G2 Cybertronians? Seems like I remember Red Alert at least going down in that one.

I could pull the book out if you like...but I know he died when Smokescrean died.

Caelus wrote:

Caelus wrote:and the Swarm becomes the Vok after merging with the Matrix - which in the cartoon was used up to purge the Hate Plague.

You lost me here.

At the end of G2, Optimus sacrifices himself to the Swarm, which was essentially a living but souless biproduct of the Transformers, clumsily seeking 'enlightment'. Exposure to the Matrix within Prime finally gives them a soul though, and IIRC, they vow to use their new found power to spread life. It is implied that the Matrix becomes one with the Swarm, and therefore no longer exists as a tangibl artifact. Post Beast Wars Retconning by one of the writers said that the Vok were the Ascended form of the Swarm, traveling through space and time seeding planets with life. So, once again Beast Wars connects with the Comics.

I saw it different then you....What I took from the ending was.... The Vok merged with the matrix and then seperated from it and left the Matrix with Prime

Caelus wrote:In the final episodes of the G1 Cartoon however, the Matrix is literally used up to cure everyone of the Hate Plague, which is referenced as history in Beast Machines. So once again you're back to a 4th or 5th G1 continuity - one where either the Hate Plague was a conventional disease cured by conventional means, or one where they managed to replenish the Matrix after using it against the plague (which Optimus implied was possible at the end of the final episode).

This I knew you post seemed to mearge the two points but I may have read it wrong.

Caelus wrote:

Caelus wrote:So yeah, a seperate, hybrid continuity seems the best solution.

I have always said that it had to be a 4th G1 universe that the Beast shows were connect to.But I have also said that if your not willing to asept the possibilty of a 4th G1 universe then the Beast shows fit more eazly into the Marvel G1/G2 comic universe with out so many clairing contradictions.

Partially I think that's because 92 Comic issues seemed to give us more "material" and depth than the 3 seasons of the Cartoon. So assuming that Beast Wars pulled on material proportionately, it would wind up pulling more on the comic.

I can aggree with that.

Caelus wrote:

Caelus wrote:Here's another thing I'm not sure about though - If I recall correctly, Energon was never mentioned in the Comics. This then would be another instance of BW following the cartoon continuity rather than the comic continuity.

I dont think that Energon was referred to by name in the comic but thats the equivalnt of then not naming the ships in the toon.

*After skimming through the first six issues*

Indeed; The Transformers appear to not be able to use Fossil Fuels or charge themselves from something like a nuclear reactor. They are wholly dependent on a particular, unnamed by highly advanced fuel. Basically, it does match the description for Energon. The difference is it isn't named and the Transformers don't know how to convert traditonal energy sources into it as they did in the cartoon.

Told ya

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Theres no reason to belieave that they were fossilized Earth creatures.....this is Si-Fi after all and simular life forms have been seen on other planets in every medium of Si-Fi since its inception.Even in Marvel comics we are selfs arent very much differen looking then the Kree.....and DC comics has Krypton and its inhabitants that look like us and even their dogs look like ours.The same argument could be used to explain those fossil's on Beast Machines.

Touche. Though, if nothing else, I still have trouble with that many fossils of different species in one place.

An other explaination is that Primus could have plased himself inside a hunk of earth that may have been floating around after one of our owen astoroide impacts.

Intriguing...

I could pull the book out if you like...but I know he died when Smokescrean died.

Ah, I found the page. If you hadn't mentioned Smokescreen I wouldn't have spotted it. It'd be pretty easy to get out of it retconning wise. Smokescreen explodes, and Inferno indicates that he's gone, but Ironhide takes two shots to the chest (pretty standard fair for a TF) and is still standing, shielding his face with his arm, when Smokescreen dies. The fact that he doesn't reappear later in the series suggests that the writers intended for him to die, but one could easily say that he was just wounded badly enough to be out of action.

I saw it different then you....What I took from the ending was.... The Vok merged with the matrix and then seperated from it and left the Matrix with Prime

I suppose it is really subjective to interpretation isn't it? I guess I always thought it was 'used up' because the rest of G2 makes a big deal about Primus's essence being finite - explaining why the G2 Cybertronians were cold-fueled killers.

Told ya

Here's a detail for you though: The comic TFuel is Blue/Black as opposed to glowing purple.

So, how many colors of the stuff do we have now?

Caelus wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Theres no reason to belieave that they were fossilized Earth creatures.....this is Si-Fi after all and simular life forms have been seen on other planets in every medium of Si-Fi since its inception.Even in Marvel comics we are selfs arent very much differen looking then the Kree.....and DC comics has Krypton and its inhabitants that look like us and even their dogs look like ours.The same argument could be used to explain those fossil's on Beast Machines.

Touche. Though, if nothing else, I still have trouble with that many fossils of different species in one place.

An other explaination is that Primus could have plased himself inside a hunk of earth that may have been floating around after one of our owen astoroide impacts.

Intriguing...

I'll take that as a complement.

Caelus wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

I could pull the book out if you like...but I know he died when Smokescrean died.

Ah, I found the page. If you hadn't mentioned Smokescreen I wouldn't have spotted it. It'd be pretty easy to get out of it retconning wise. Smokescreen explodes, and Inferno indicates that he's gone, but Ironhide takes two shots to the chest (pretty standard fair for a TF) and is still standing, shielding his face with his arm, when Smokescreen dies. The fact that he doesn't reappear later in the series suggests that the writers intended for him to die, but one could easily say that he was just wounded badly enough to be out of action.

Yes Ironhide could have survived the shots to the chest but the next few panel's show the intire area being leveled to the ground.To me it looks like all the Autobot ground troops in the area got killed.None of the Autobot ground troop are ever seen again in the G2 book.

You are right that a little retconing would fix that issue.....but thats kind of been my point, a good number of little retcons make BW's a better fit into the comic universe then some of the hudge one's [at least in scope] that are needed to fit BW's into the G1 toon universe.

The toon never really establish'es Iacon as a city ,the say that Unicron was the creation of a little ape looking dude, The TF's were created as retasil good's buy the Quintasons....these are some hudge changes that a fan has to accept if he's going to believe that BW's is part of the G1 toon.

Caelus wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

I saw it different then you....What I took from the ending was.... The Vok merged with the matrix and then seperated from it and left the Matrix with Prime

I suppose it is really subjective to interpretation isn't it? I guess I always thought it was 'used up' because the rest of G2 makes a big deal about Primus's essence being finite - explaining why the G2 Cybertronians were cold-fueled killers.

Every thing is subjective.

Caelus wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Told ya

Here's a detail for you though: The comic TFuel is Blue/Black as opposed to glowing purple.

So, how many colors of the stuff do we have now?

As many colors of the rainbow

Sledge wrote:if you do intend to quote me, quote the whole thing, instead of cutting out a little bit to change it's meaning.

Follow your own advice and then maybe I will.

Sledge wrote:Hmm, it's probably going to involve screenshots from The Ultimate Doom, and lengthy workings out of how far Cybertron was from Earth at that time. Not something I want to try.

As for the other issue, what is annoying to me is Saber's willingness to pull totally unsupported suppositions out of thin air, and then insist they support his argument. That and his posting two or three mahoosive posts in a row that don't address a simple question. If you recall, this started with Saber's assertion that various terms were used in the G1 cartoon. I asked for proof of that, and everything went tits up from there. Thing is, what we're discussing isn't really a question of how "real" we should treat a fictional reality. If you assert that a term was used in a TV show, it should be easy enough to prove.

You know what bothers me about you. Your ability to look at a single sentence and transform it into 3 pages of crap I never said in the first place.

You still haven't been able to find where I said any of the things you claimed I had said have you?

That and your impatiant nature to demand things which I simply don't have the time to search for and with the way you allways demand links I useually end up not waiting to even look even if the time is avalible to me.

I don't respond well to people demanding things as in I just post something and 10 min. later I see a post saying something to the effect of "Where's your evidence I wanna see proof of your claims NOW!" We'll you're not getting anything NOW you'll get it when I'm damn good and ready and if you push me not at all.

Aside from the demanding aspect you allways ask for evidence while you've allready decided I'm wrong. Even after I provide you you still claim I'm wrong.

Sorry, Saber, but again your lack of G1 cartoon knowledge is showing you up. I'm gonna have to ask you for the episodes where the terms were used, or you're gonna have to admit you're wrong.

Sentence in bold, sure sounds like you allready decided I was wrong.

Even after I do provide evidence that Iacon was used in the series (well actully Caelus brought up the episode it was first used in I just linked you to that episode) you still continue to say things like

Saber's assertion that various terms were used in the G1 cartoon. I asked for proof of that, and everything went tits up from there.

Obviously even if the evidence is there you still don't belive I'm ever right.

So really exsplain to me what it is I'm doing wrong because I don't understand you at all. It just seems like I'm allways going to be wrong no matter if I have evidene to suport me or not, nothing I say will ever make sence to you, so why? Just give me one good reason why I would ever wanna try to have a decent conversation with you when you're not going to try to have one with me?

A thought just accoured to me. Sledge reminds me verry much of Burn. The way both post is verry simular and they both agrovate me in the same ways. I think Sledge is a newer member than Burn, could it be possible that they're the same person?

I allready decided a while ago I was going to ignore Burn. Maybe he made Sledge just so to make me think he was someone else?

Or maybe I'm just being paranoid.

Saber Prime wrote:Even after I do provide evidence that Iacon was used in the series (well actully Caelus brought up the episode it was first used in I just linked you to that episode) you still continue to say things like

Saber's assertion that various terms were used in the G1 cartoon. I asked for proof of that, and everything went tits up from there.

Obviously even if the evidence is there you still don't belive I'm ever right.

So really exsplain to me what it is I'm doing wrong because I don't understand you at all. It just seems like I'm allways going to be wrong no matter if I have evidene to suport me or not, nothing I say will ever make sence to you, so why? Just give me one good reason why I would ever wanna try to have a decent conversation with you when you're not going to try to have one with me?

Well you know I'm open to listen to your proff.You know I'm always opened minded to leasin to you theroies.And it was my original post that you replyed to that started all this....and I already admited that I made a mistake about Iacon [due to lack of sleep] but you still haven responed to my request that you show me an exsample of the names Ark and Nemissis being used in the G1 toon like you said it was.

No I just figured that you got caught up in the debate with Slege so I just figured that I'd leave it alone but now I'm asking you again....what episode[s] of G1 were the name's The Ark and Nemissis used?

TO ME.....The Allspark and Vector Sigma are the same things. Only difference is the spaces and colors