The Energon Pub

Savage wrote:The law asserts separation of church and state, but that does not stop the general populace from voting the way their preacher tells them to. I don't think the problem is the law so much as it is the people who do not bother to form their own opinions.

The problem is that the constitution would seem to suggest that any law banning gay marriage should not be valid regardless of whether the populace votes for it or not.

I mean, for instance, I'm sure there's still some areas of the US that would love to vote in local laws discriminating against various races, but they can't because it would be unconstitutional and thus unenforcable.

Savage wrote:The law asserts separation of church and state,

Didn't stop our last Prime Minister from sprouting his Catholic opinions and forming policies around his values.

He was quite adamant that while he was in power same sex marriages would NEVER be legalised. I'm amazed Australia got so far as to recognise same sex partners for taxation purposes from July last year.

http://theweek.com/article/index/103075 ... htmarriage

yeah, texas accidentally banned straight marriage tryiong to ban gay marriage

that makes me smile

Name_Violation wrote:http://theweek.com/article/index/103075/Texas_accidentally_bans_straightmarriage

yeah, texas accidentally banned straight marriage tryiong to ban gay marriage

that makes me smile

Yeah, that definitely made me snicker at the time.

I kind of agree with the third point in the article, that we should just leave the term marriage entirely up to the churches and have the purely legal side of the matter be just civil unions. Seems like it would pretty much solve all of the questions entirely.

Good luck getting anyone to agree to that, though... even the non-religious folks often are too attached to the baggage of the word "marriage".

Jeysie wrote:

Name_Violation wrote:http://theweek.com/article/index/103075/Texas_accidentally_bans_straightmarriage

yeah, texas accidentally banned straight marriage tryiong to ban gay marriage

that makes me smile

Yeah, that definitely made me snicker at the time.

I kind of agree with the third point in the article, that we should just leave the term marriage entirely up to the churches and have the purely legal side of the matter be just civil unions. Seems like it would pretty much solve all of the questions entirely.

Good luck getting anyone to agree to that, though... even the non-religious folks often are too attached to the baggage of the word "marriage".

Wait, does that mean my marriage is void? Am I living a lie?!

I personally don't see how allowing gay marriage is a bad thing or even going against the church. Especially if the people are not of that religion. I do agree that it does go against the constitution though. I wonder what would happen if someone actually said that to someone in charge. XD

Ravenous Nightwind wrote:I personally don't see how allowing gay marriage is a bad thing

It's not. Though some people think it'll bring about the world faster than a nuclear arms race. (Idiots those people are)

or even going against the church.

Well apparently it's a no no in God's eyes.
(Doesn't stop some priests though from buggering little boys)

Especially if the people are not of that religion.

And this is where Government's are having problems because the bulk of countries are founded on a religious belief but have tried to build a society around social freedoms where church and state are seperate.

I think the philosopher Hyde said it best:

While I respect the Judeo-Christian ethic, as well as the eastern philosophies and, of course, the teachings of Mohammed, I find that organized religion has corrupted those beliefs to justify countless atrocities throughout history. Were I to attend church, I'd be a hypocrite.

Burn wrote:

Ravenous Nightwind wrote:I personally don't see how allowing gay marriage is a bad thing

It's not. Though some people think it'll bring about the world faster than a nuclear arms race. (Idiots those people are)

or even going against the church.

Well apparently it's a no no in God's eyes.
(Doesn't stop some priests though from buggering little boys)

Especially if the people are not of that religion.

And this is where Government's are having problems because the bulk of countries are founded on a religious belief but have tried to build a society around social freedoms where church and state are seperate.

The government seriously needs to be ran by people that are only spiritual with no definite religions. o.o

nah, governments need to be run by people who can see the bigger picture and make decisions that benefit the MAJORITY of the populace rather than themselves/minority groups.

Burn wrote:nah, governments need to be run by people who can see the bigger picture and make decisions that benefit the MAJORITY of the populace rather than themselves/minority groups.

But its not about the bigger picture because now a days most people are wanting to be the one in charge, most of them don't care about what is good for the people they just want to be the ones to have say in something. o.o

So is anyone excited about WFC? =o

Ravenous Nightwind wrote:

Burn wrote:nah, governments need to be run by people who can see the bigger picture and make decisions that benefit the MAJORITY of the populace rather than themselves/minority groups.

But its not about the bigger picture because now a days most people are wanting to be the one in charge, most of them don't care about what is good for the people they just want to be the ones to have say in something. o.o

hmmmm i'm guessing our countries are a little different in that regard.

From what I see, we (in Australia) have a lot of VERY vocal minority groups screaming out in the name of God which our church going politicians are hearing and as such taking action for.

They don't so much want to be in charge, they just want to be heard and make those in charge take action on their behalf.

And those that aren't church going politicians seem to be only interested in lining their own pockets. (Something I think all nations have in common)

Burn wrote:

Ravenous Nightwind wrote:

Burn wrote:nah, governments need to be run by people who can see the bigger picture and make decisions that benefit the MAJORITY of the populace rather than themselves/minority groups.

But its not about the bigger picture because now a days most people are wanting to be the one in charge, most of them don't care about what is good for the people they just want to be the ones to have say in something. o.o

hmmmm i'm guessing our countries are a little different in that regard.

From what I see, we (in Australia) have a lot of VERY vocal minority groups screaming out in the name of God which our church going politicians are hearing and as such taking action for.

They don't so much want to be in charge, they just want to be heard and make those in charge take action on their behalf.

And those that aren't church going politicians seem to be only interested in lining their own pockets. (Something I think all nations have in common)

And then one day..boom...all the nations capitals and their buildings transform into some kinda limb. O_O XD

I dunno though it is all very strange and complicated. Which is why I prefer to keep my self out of it.. Arguments are yucky. >.<

I was thinking about the title of the forum and I started to wonder what if it could be like a beacon to the other fans. XDDDD Calling all gay transformers fans!!! We're going into battle!!! XDDDD I dunno, just a crazy thought. x3

Burn wrote:nah, governments need to be run by people who can see the bigger picture and make decisions that benefit the MAJORITY of the populace rather than themselves/minority groups.

I guess it's a matter of different country viewpoints?

Here in the US, part of why we're a representative democracy and not a direct democracy is to ensure that the majority can never oppress the rights of the minority. Unfortunately, the blocking of gay marriage is pretty much subverting that.

Ravenous Nightwind wrote:I dunno though it is all very strange and complicated. Which is why I prefer to keep my self out of it.. Arguments are yucky. >.<

I once considered running for the local council.

But recently I decided that this town just is not worth it. No matter what you do, no one's going to support you.

I was thinking about the title of the forum and I started to wonder what if it could be like a beacon to the other fans. XDDDD Calling all gay transformers fans!!! We're going into battle!!! XDDDD I dunno, just a crazy thought. x3

I don't think it's crazy at all. Beacon? Definitely. There may be someone out there who may be unsure of their sexuality and this one little thread will show them they're not alone and that there are people here they could talk to. So definitely not weird!

Jeysie wrote:I guess it's a matter of different country viewpoints?

It is. And it's a personal curiosity to see how something is handled in other countries to how it's handled here in Australia.

And frankly, at the rate Australia is rapidly heading towards becoming a tiny version of China, it'll be nice to know which country I can escape to.

Here in the US, part of why we're a representative democracy and not a direct democracy is to ensure that the majority can never oppress the rights of the minority. Unfortunately, the blocking of gay marriage is pretty much subverting that.

I see it as society has changed a hell of a lot since a lot of countries founded and wrote their constitutions. What was written hundreds of years ago just isn't keeping up with the world today.

Burn wrote:And frankly, at the rate Australia is rapidly heading towards becoming a tiny version of China, it'll be nice to know which country I can escape to.

Ironically, I've been thinking of going over there... because you guys have available jobs and someone willing to be in love with me.

Burn wrote:I see it as society has changed a hell of a lot since a lot of countries founded and wrote their constitutions. What was written hundreds of years ago just isn't keeping up with the world today.

In some cases. Although the funny thing is that the US Constitution actually does still work fairly well. Most of our egregious bad political behavior comes from things that often I feel actually go against the Constitution.

Though there are, of course, things that the Constitution doesn't address at all, and there are some things like the 2nd Amendment about gun ownership where there's a question if following the letter isn't doing more harm than good, as the spirit may not apply any longer. But it may be worth noting that, if memory serves, the attempted ban on gay marriage was the first time since Prohibition that there was going to be an amendment to take away rights instead of grant them... and uh, Americans at least know how well Prohibition worked...

Jeysie wrote:Ironically, I've been thinking of going over there... because you guys have available jobs and someone willing to be in love with me.

Unless you have a trade qualification there really isn't much in the way of jobs over here. There's a rant I could post about unemployed people not wanting to get jobs but that's a rant for another thread.

So I just thought of something else. This occurred in the last few decades back in the days when it was actually illegal to engage in homosexual activities, the police would actually assault people they caught engaging in such activities and never got reprimanded for it.

Did that happen elsewhere as well?

Burn wrote:Unless you have a trade qualification there really isn't much in the way of jobs over here. There's a rant I could post about unemployed people not wanting to get jobs but that's a rant for another thread.

Depends on what you mean by a "trade", I guess. I'm an experienced secretary/receptionist/office assistant, but there's been crap all for jobs in that field here in Western MA. My girlfriend says she sees enough of those types of openings where she is, though. (I've also been wanting to go to school for an accounting degree for ages, but, you know. No job, no money for tuition.)

I think the whole police going after people still happens but they just cover it up, but its not with every cop only certain ones. I'm not sure if it happened back then..but I do know that you could get fired from a job from being homosexual.

In a place where I live though it isn't exactly frowned upon, its just not seen very much. You don't see men or woman kissing on each other usually unless your in the gay bar. I only ever seen a gay couple once, it was at target and they had their little dog with them and they were lookin at tvs. One of them tenderly kissed the other. x3 It was so cute. XD That was actually a few years ago though which was the first time I ever seen anything like that. =o At least I know it exists. XD I think where I live a lot of people are just private about them selves or have no desire to show it off. Either that or I'm just not in the right part of town. XDDD

Jeysie wrote:Depends on what you mean by a "trade", I guess. I'm an experienced secretary/receptionist/office assistant, but there's been crap all for jobs in that field here in Western MA.

You'd be hard pressed to find that sort of thing here as well.

And by trade i'm talking fitters and turners, boiler makers, electricians, all that kind of stuff.

Ravenous Nightwind wrote:I think the whole police going after people still happens but they just cover it up, but its not with every cop only certain ones. I'm not sure if it happened back then..but I do know that you could get fired from a job from being homosexual.

The stuff I was talking about was the 60's and 70's and into the early 80's. Queensland (where i'm from) had serious corruption throughout the Police force, the corruption went as high as the Premier at the time (who'd been in power for about two decades and had pretty much deluded himself into thinking he could do what he wanted).

I watched the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras this year and the commentor's reflected on the first march and how the Sydney Police opposed it with many of the people marching getting assaulted.

They were talking about this as the representatives of the Police force were marching by. That was great to see how much things have changed.

I think where I live a lot of people are just private about them selves or have no desire to show it off.

This probably makes me a prude but i'm actually not a big fan of public displays of affection, be it gay or straight! Probably because I tend to be a bit of a private person when it comes to affection and i'd much rather show that to my partner in private.

Burn wrote:

Jeysie wrote:Depends on what you mean by a "trade", I guess. I'm an experienced secretary/receptionist/office assistant, but there's been crap all for jobs in that field here in Western MA.

You'd be hard pressed to find that sort of thing here as well.

And by trade i'm talking fitters and turners, boiler makers, electricians, all that kind of stuff.

Ravenous Nightwind wrote:I think the whole police going after people still happens but they just cover it up, but its not with every cop only certain ones. I'm not sure if it happened back then..but I do know that you could get fired from a job from being homosexual.

The stuff I was talking about was the 60's and 70's and into the early 80's. Queensland (where i'm from) had serious corruption throughout the Police force, the corruption went as high as the Premier at the time (who'd been in power for about two decades and had pretty much deluded himself into thinking he could do what he wanted).

I watched the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras this year and the commentor's reflected on the first march and how the Sydney Police opposed it with many of the people marching getting assaulted.

They were talking about this as the representatives of the Police force were marching by. That was great to see how much things have changed.

I think where I live a lot of people are just private about them selves or have no desire to show it off.

This probably makes me a prude but i'm actually not a big fan of public displays of affection, be it gay or straight! Probably because I tend to be a bit of a private person when it comes to affection and i'd much rather show that to my partner in private.

I was also talking about then as well. (I read a bit of history but not much)

Yeah me either but that isn't what I meant exactly. I meant more like being more open about it or at least the idea. I dunno..I just hate the whole secluded feeling because it makes me feel like I'm the only one. o.o I mean I know I am not but its just hard to tell who is who around here..like I can't come on to just any guy. XD Not that I would anyway but I'm using it as an example. Gah..its sad when only old men come onto you. XD

There's always a party who benefits from denying rights to a group of (people)though, I don't always get what the benefit may be. I keep thinking that if laws are made to keep people from doing (whatever) that eventually, everyone is in a group that someone else opposes. Then, no one gets to do anything.

There was a law in Denver, I dunno, early 90's, called the "Living in Sin Law". It's not in effect now, but the law basically said that a female and a male could not live in the same household without being legally married.

Motorcycle helmet laws are designed to keep people safe, right? Well, do some research and find that it's all about insurance and medical care. What happens when you're wearing the best helmet on the market and you run into the back of a truck with your chest? No helmet in the world is going to help you at that point. So, what's next? Ban motorcycles? Or, make everyone in 4 wheels wear a helmet too?

Laws are made to take away freedoms. Some freedoms you shouldn't have - murder, theft, carjacking, rape, etc. - things that truly put a society in danger. Who is hurt by a non-traditional marriage? In the end, it serves no purpose to oppose it - someone out there just loses the control they have over (people). People should be able to decide for themselves what is right/wrong for them. Give them the responsibility to choose for themselves and to take the consequences that go along with the responsibility - stop with the whole "save everyone from themselves" mentality. God gave us free will - I'm sure He intended for us to us it.

Wait, what are we talking about? Oh, right - I'm cool with gay TF fans - the more the merrier! I'm just glad I'm not the only openly geeky TF fan in the world!

Stormer wrote:There's always a party who benefits from denying rights to a group of (people)though, I don't always get what the benefit may be. I keep thinking that if laws are made to keep people from doing (whatever) that eventually, everyone is in a group that someone else opposes. Then, no one gets to do anything.

There was a law in Denver, I dunno, early 90's, called the "Living in Sin Law". It's not in effect now, but the law basically said that a female and a male could not live in the same household without being legally married.

Motorcycle helmet laws are designed to keep people safe, right? Well, do some research and find that it's all about insurance and medical care. What happens when you're wearing the best helmet on the market and you run into the back of a truck with your chest? No helmet in the world is going to help you at that point. So, what's next? Ban motorcycles? Or, make everyone in 4 wheels wear a helmet too?

Laws are made to take away freedoms. Some freedoms you shouldn't have - murder, theft, carjacking, rape, etc. - things that truly put a society in danger. Who is hurt by a non-traditional marriage? In the end, it serves no purpose to oppose it - someone out there just loses the control they have over (people). People should be able to decide for themselves what is right/wrong for them. Give them the responsibility to choose for themselves and to take the consequences that go along with the responsibility - stop with the whole "save everyone from themselves" mentality. God gave us free will - I'm sure He intended for us to us it.

Wait, what are we talking about? Oh, right - I'm cool with gay TF fans - the more the merrier! I'm just glad I'm not the only openly geeky TF fan in the world!

I think I agree with that whole thing. o.o Though the whole god gave us free will thing and such makes me think of this one time several people told me that I was going to go to hell for being a homosexual because its a choice and not who someone is. o.O But I know that's not what you meant.

Well..if we're all gah gah over giant robots battling each other and what not and we collect the action figures like crazy..I'd say we're all a little geeky in one way or another. XD

I'm straight but my best friend in school was gay. We actually became friends because we both loved Transformers. We're still friends to this day.

I have been mistaken for being gay a lot in my life, especially school which was hell. Probably because I suffered crippling shyness around girls (still do to a lesser extent, thankfully) and my best friend was gay. But I'm glad because having experienced the intolerance that gay people and others, are subjected to, I vowed never to treat anyone in such a way. There is no excuse for it. But rather than condemn those who do persecute others, we need to enlighten them or we just end up persecuting them back which is also wrong.

I've made many other dear, gay friends over the years and should I ever have kids and they turn out to be gay, I'm glad I have friends they will be able to talk to for advice and what not.

Since someone mentioned religion, not all of us Catholics are judgemental bigots. I for one would have no problem with gay marriage. There's even been evidence that centuries ago, the Catholic church blessed gay marriages.

A lot of people, especially Catholics themselves, tend to forget that Jesus founded the Church on the principles of tolerance and forgiveness. Before anyone attacks me for my wording, I'm not suggesting people need forgiveness for being gay, I'm just saying that the church was founded on tolerance and forgiveness.

Freedom is indeed, the right of all sentient beings.

What I like about this kind of topic is that it highlights the basic human decency in people.