The Energon Pub

I wanted to start this thread to give us a chance to openly discuss the "Scalping" issue and determine as a fandom the best way to establish an industry standard that we all can agree on. now, i'm not up for flame wars and potential bashings here.. so please be respectful of others in this thread.. I don't want to see this one get locked for any reason..

I want to set up as a fandom what we consider a healthy purchase, as apposed to ripp off artists who come to the various fandoms and get information to go out and buy loads of stock to resell to us to gain a huge profit..

what do I consider acceptable?

if you buy 5 figures, and decide to sell them on eBay then atleast 2 of them should be sold as "Buy it nows" then the others at auction.. but there should be stock left at retail for various non-internet buying fans to purchase..

What questions can we shy away from to not help scalpers??

Now I don't want ot get the reputation of not being helpoful to newcomers to the site, and I'm sure my position will be unpopular with those who want more exposure to this site, but the fact of the matter is that we Transformers fans and occasional buyers, parents hunting for their kids for X-mas and such are gonna get screwed by scalpers..

Now you know what else is funny, to see how many of us will just post the best reseller and hottest buy, without even thinking about it... you guys are helping the scalpers..

consider the recent unpleasantness of the online bazillion Transformers the movie 08 Bumblebee deluxe toys..there are some many online and not in the retail stores it's almsot insane.. it's like people realized that the 08 Bumblebee was the best deluxe toy out there, and because of demand bought huge lots and sold them online for others to buy at a huge rate!! this screwed alot of us who went to the stores, wasted our gas, and time, in a search for them...

if your a supporter of profiteering, then I say fine, but should a scalper be allowed to come to a forum, ask finely tuned questions about a particular toy, then go out and buy them up?? I say No!! because that is wrong.. and is the exact reason for my title of this thread.. to lead the scalpers here to see what we as a fandom consider wrong, and the right way to be a part of it...

And to also let you scalpers know..

WE are on to you!!

In my opinion you should be careful on who you talk to.. they may just be here to get your advice to get your money...


No Krabs here please...

I'm not gonna read all that.

all I can say is that classics Jet Fire is da bomb!

wmpyr wrote:I'm not gonna read all that.

all I can say is that classics Jet Fire is da bomb!

case in point...

oops double post...

skywarp-2 wrote:oops double post...

Jet fire is that good, makes you double post

The best and most sought after toy s Tits Soundwave, he is hands down the best Tf ever!
(A to anybody who believes that)

The way I see it, scalpers are no better or worse than people who buy up one figure for display and then another few for keeping in MISB and kitbashing. It's not fair that scalpers clear shelves just to profit from collectors but I think it's equally unfair that people buy up extra figures to keep MISB or kitbash because that still means less on the shelves for people that don't even own one.

The way I see it, there could be a Highly Sought-After Figure in TRU but only four left on the shelf. I, Collector A, could leave my house on a 20 minute journey to TRU at the same time as Collectors B and C, who have to travel for the same amount of time. If, 5 minutes after the three of us have departed, Collector D walks into TRU and buys three of the figure, that means that when myself, Collector B and Collector C arrive in store there will only be one of this Highly Sought-After Figure left. Two of us will go away empty-handed. If one of those empty-handed collectors is me, it makes no difference whether Collector D has put up their Highly Sought-After Figures on eBay or whether they've put one on display, kept on MISB and used the third for kitbashing. I'm still without this Highly Sought-After Figure.

In fact, scalpers are probably doing the fandom a greater service because at least they allow the Highly Sought-After Figure to be purchased, albeit at a higher price. People who buy extra to keep MISB or to kitbash don't allow that as they're keeping all three of the figure for themselves.

As for pricing, I'd say that both scalpers and buyers are to blame. Sure, scalpers don't have to put their prices up, but bidders don't have to bid and people don't have to buy.

EDIT: Double-post.

Or you could argue that both scalpers and kitbashers are playing fair as it is a free market. At the end of the day, though, like the BotCon exclusives, if one can't afford the scalpers' prices, don't pay the scalpers' prices!

Haven't we beat this issue to death the past few months?

There are plenty of ways to find out which are the "hot" figures without going to the trouble of creating an account and starting a new thread.

that depends, some of these newer scalpers are new to doing scalping in the Transformers world. alot of them come from the comics and Baseball side of things and to them our world is alien..

As far as someone buying 3 figures one for themselves, one for MISB, and one for Kitbashing..I don't see anything wrong with that.. because that person is a collector, and on Principle, I will back that kind of purchase over someone who could care less about transformers and buys a whole lot and sells them at rediculous prices..it's the scalpers who drive the aftermarket prices, not collectors who keep 3 figures to themselves..

that said, I'm a firm advocate of buying MISB, then going on eBay and buying an out of box figure for cheap from someones collection who doesn't want the out of box figure anymore..

On the scalper end, there are plenty of "Professional" scalpers out there.. the fans who buy alot and try to make some dough online, not to defend them, but those guys are amateurs... the real scalpers are those who don't care and are really gruff about getting their stock..they will even follow you around a damn Target!!!

anyways, those particular people are pros and are just plain bad.. they aren't into Transformers as a collector or a fan, they are simply here to get your cash, and make a profit off of whiping out a store of that particular toy stock...you should have seen the starwars episode 3 scalpers and Darth maul figures!! it was crazy!! and what about Mc Farlane figures?? their sports figures..?? you should see the scalpers fight over the cases..I've seen an actual fist brawl.. because to them it's a way of life..

I still feel like we need to establish a centralized concensus on what is and what isn't considered scalping..hence the reasoning behind this thread.. i agree with you Leo.. there are times I'm pissed that a store is out because a collector is buying more then one figure.. but the store will restock sooner or later, but to have a figure polarized by scalpers sales on eBay only makes other scalpers and would be entrepanuers go out and seek those same toys to scalp for themselves which creates a snowball effect into most shelves being left bare..

an over abundance of a certain toy, 08 Bumblebee, online that once would have layered the shelves of retail shops, but now sits in storage on a scalper or online store, for double the price, because the retail stores are now depleted.. and to those hardcore collectors who managed to get one in retail or bought one online already..they have theirs...which leaves boo koo 08 Bumblebee's online that no one will buy... and those kids and newer fans that would continue the line of new comers and new fans carrying the torch for the future will miss out, because either their parents don't think to look online or shop the scalper spots, or they just don't care enough to want to pay extra for an 08 bumblebee toy for their kids X-mas because they just saw it at a Target or Wal-Mart a week before at 9.99 and not 29.99 plus shipping..

Actually i'm glad there's a ton of 08 Bumblebee's online for sale and hardly any are being sold... I hope it teaches those stupid scalpers a lesson..!!! I hope they get stuck with 20 to 30, concept 08 bumblebees and can't sell them.. the hype has died down somewhat.. so be expecting to see scalper prices drop.. but not by much...

that's my 2 cents..

It's just a part of life. It's like getting pissed at people who cut you off in traffic. You get mad, you let it wreck your day and in the end will getting mad change anything? If I just honk and flip off 10 more drivers then people will stop cutting me off. No. It's just going to keep happening. When something is special like deluxe concept bumblebee is/was people will naturally flock to it and buy them up. It's just normal human behavior. It's like cops getting upset that there's bad guys. Bad guys are a part of the job and scalpers are a part of collecting sought after items.

Imagine a world of collecting where nothing is super sought after or hard to find...due to fandom, scapling, moms snatching them up for their kids, whatever. BORING!!! To be honest, I like things the way they are. A challenge to find, with a little patience built in.

For example, the other day I found a concept BB. I decided in the end to not buy it so I set it down by some Leader figures on an end cap which was far fro the TF section. Changed my mind 3 minutes later, went back to get it and BAM!! It was el gono. Did a big, bad scalper get?? Or a pumped up kid who'd been wanting it forever?

I here exactly what you are saying but one more honk ain't gonna solve a thing. Sucks huh?

Leonardo wrote:The way I see it, scalpers are no better or worse than people who buy up one figure for display and then another few for keeping in MISB and kitbashing.

It's called leverage. I'd happily trade my MISB toys away to someone who wants/needs them, in exchange for something I can't find.

Mind you, I'm not a true MISB collector. I do see your point with people buying up the same figure more than twice, which is excessive IMO.

I could care less about the value of a figure. I used to be a MOC Star Wars completeist 95-05. Ten years of buying and preserving every single item got old. But when I decided to sell my colection and opt for a smaller loose collection, I realized 2 things:

1) most items lose their value after a long enough time
2) the few items that gain value are the ones you never think will

Granted I could have made twice what I sold everything for in the end, I opted to sell my collection to my fellow collectors at rebelscum.com and only asked retail or less for almost everything. The exceptions were the items I actually PAID more for on ebay or just general high-ticket items.

I really don't care what my Transformers are worth. In my parents' garage there is a blue plastic Rubbermaid tub that I used as a toy box since I was about 5. It has many toys from TF and GI Joe to Micro Machines and Ghostbusters. I am sure that my G1 Prime in that box is worth a bit of cash, or maybe not. I have no clue, because I don't care. I know what it's worth to me, and that is a symbol of my youth and the mythology of the toys I used to get lost in.

A toy is only worth what someone will pay for it. Don't buy toys for an investment. By stocks, invest in an IRA or hit the casinos, but don't gobble up the trinkets that brings kids and collectors happiness. This is a hobby, not a business.

Collectors are going to help out other collectors, and sure we all endulge the scalpers buy shopping on ebay. It's safe, fast, convenient, and with gas costs, it's often cheaper than the hunt. But my rule of thumb is I will NEVER pay more than I know I will save in gas and time. Scalping sucks. Hot wheels scalpers are the worst too from my SW collecting experiences.

I would give any kid any toy at a store before buying it for myself, unless it's my son's and he's with me. But for scalpers to pull these same toys off the shelf and sell them to theoretically the same parent who visited the same store later that day for 2-3x retail online, that's just wrong. It should be illegal.

Something else I should add is that buying multiple copies of a figure doesn't instantly mean the buyer has been unfair. It's not about the numbers, as if there are ten on shelf and ten collectors come in and buy one each, I'm still going without if I walk into store as Collector #11. So, there's still none left for other people but that's first-come-first-serve, which is fine. Even those who buy multiple copies of a figure might be buying one for themselves, one for a friend or fellow collector or one to give as a Christmas gift to their child. So, buying more than one doesn't automatically make a buyer ethically questionable. If a buyer buys three copies but is giving two away to two different collectors, then the end result is the same as all three collectors going in and buying one each. It's still three different people getting one of each toy.

On a personal note, I don't have any problems whatsoever with people who buy one to display, one to keep MISB and one to kitbash. I just don't really see why their reason for purchasing makes them more acceptable (or, to look at it the other way, why scalpers' reasons for purchasing makes them less acceptable). Why is someone being a true collector better than someone who buys in bulk to sell off? They're still buying more than one, and no-one really needs more than one (no-one really needs even one, to be honest).

The answer to that seems to be the price. That's the only genuine issue that I can see with scalpers but it doesn't bother me because - as with anything - if one can't afford it, go without and don't buy it. If the aftermarket prices are such an issue with the collecting community, then simply don't pay those prices. Don't buy the toy. It is, after all, just a toy. One can say that high street or registered retailers charge too much for products and services. That's life.

A few disjointed brainwaves:

I think Hasbro made a lot of quick money off scalpers this year. Without the scalpers, they would've sold a lot less, a lot slower. The faster something sell out, the faster it is reordered. Ideally this will enable Hasbro to put more money, time and effort into designing and producing future transformers. It won't necessarily work out that way, but ideally it should. But so much speculation always creates an overheated market. It's the natural run of things.

Ultimately nothing has a fixed value, and things are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them, which is based on supply, demand, and how much disposable cash people have. The big difference between today's market and G1 is that many more people are buying figures primarily for display and to keep MISB. So in the future, supply may well exceed demand.

We're also reaching the stage where there's so many figures that've been produced over the years that it's impossible to be a completist. So there's probably a lot of figures out there that nobody's going to want to bother with in years to come.

skywarp-2 wrote:I wanted to start this thread to give us a chance to openly discuss the "Scalping" issue and determine as a fandom the best way to establish an industry standard that we all can agree on. now, i'm not up for flame wars and potential bashings here.. so please be respectful of others in this thread.. I don't want to see this one get locked for any reason..

There have been many threads like this in the past. This one will probably end the same-locked. I can't help but wonder if you are just stirring the Hornet's nest for entertainment. Any true collector would be looking for TFs, not complaing about scalpers.

skywarp-2 wrote:Now you know what else is funny, to see how many of us will just post the best reseller and hottest buy, without even thinking about it... you guys are helping the scalpers..

Its not funny, its sad. Its fine for a person to pay more for retail. Most people here buy from BBTS for example- I feel that they overcharge even for imports, but I don't fault any for buying from them. Maintaining overseas contacts is time consuming.

skywarp-2 wrote:consider the recent unpleasantness of the online bazillion Transformers the movie 08 Bumblebee deluxe toys..there are some many online and not in the retail stores it's almsot insane.. it's like people realized that the 08 Bumblebee was the best deluxe toy out there, and because of demand bought huge lots and sold them online for others to buy at a huge rate!! this screwed alot of us who went to the stores, wasted our gas, and time, in a search for them...

Simple solution is to hunt down the TFs instead of making threads complaining about scalpers.

skywarp-2 wrote:if your a supporter of profiteering, then I say fine, but should a scalper be allowed to come to a forum, ask finely tuned questions about a particular toy, then go out and buy them up?? I say No!! because that is wrong.. and is the exact reason for my title of this thread.. to lead the scalpers here to see what we as a fandom consider wrong, and the right way to be a part of it...

And to also let you scalpers know..

WE are on to you!!

Problem is- in the "real" world, there is no true wrong or right. Life isn't in black and white.

Looking at scalpers from a simple economic perspective, they're not so bad. In essence, through after-market prices, they show what the consumer is actually willing to pay for the product.

The problem lies, I think, within intent. I don't think anybody seriously gets angry about the price inflation of the original BW Rattrap, for example, as compared to '08 Bumblebee. The person selling Rattrap is more likely to have been a collector without the intention of turning it around for a quick profit. The fact that he did, in retrospect, was like an "accident," or, he "got lucky." With Bumblebee, the market knew it was going to be popular, and, in a sense, knew demand wouldn't significantly decrease with a price increase.

Bumblethumper is right to say that "nothing has a fixed value." But, when the "real" (based upon where supply meets demand) value of the product is known in aftermarket prices, two things come to mind:

1. The well-known establishment of price-points at retail. Although an inflated price may be what we would actually pay for the product, we also know that, had supply not been gobbled up by the scalpers, we could buy them at specific, lower, prices.

2. The difference goes to nobody but the scalper. It makes sense that we would rather see the profits go to the producer, in this case, Hasbro, because we know that the money will go towards making more (or better) product. The outcome of this action also leads to a societal benefit (more, or better toys for fans). There is no societal benefit when all the profits go to scalpers.

But after all of this economic mumbo-jumbo (sorry, long post), the thing that seems to be touched only briefly upon in this thread is how this affects kids. In reality, the nostalgia and collector's market for toys has not existed for very long. Up until the last few years, I don't think companies have ever had any adult market for toys in mind. That being said, I would be crushed now as a kid looking at all the empty pegs.

No wonder kids are playing with toys less and video games more. As the toy market becomes a joint-market with collectors, kids just don't have the same resources to compete with collectors and scalpers. There is no similar supply crunch in the video game market; you didn't see the same after-market for Halo 3 when it came out, because, for the most part, they could still be found at retail. I'm not saying we should do pre-orders for toys like there was for Halo, to guarantee stock, but come on, think of the kids.

It's true that the children do, in a way, 'suffer' due to scalpers clearing the shelves. I also like the point that scalpers' profits go only to them rather than to the manufacturer.

Bearing in mind that Hasbro already makes some profit from scalpers (given that scalpers must initially buy their stock at retail like other consumers), would collectors find it agreeable if Hasbro charged after-market prices right from the outset when the toys first hit retail? After all, as ephbot says, scalpers show what some consumers are willing to pay. It's not the scalpers that set the after-market value. They could put up a starting bid of 1K for a toy but the toy would never be worth that much if no-one made the bid (i.e. if no-one was willing to pay that price). The after-market value is determined by the consumer and what the consumer will pay to get the figure.

So, if toys hit the retail shelves with a higher than normal price, or the expected after-market price, would consumers accept that or would they feel ripped off? Also,would it reduce the number of scalpers, or would it just push the true after-market price even higher?

Leonardo wrote:Bearing in mind that Hasbro already makes some profit from scalpers (given that scalpers must initially buy their stock at retail like other consumers), would collectors find it agreeable if Hasbro charged after-market prices right from the outset when the toys first hit retail? After all, as ephbot says, scalpers show what some consumers are willing to pay.

It is only a crazed minority who are willing to pay those prices. From Hasbro's point of view, they can probably sell more and make a lot more profit at the lower, regular price.

The way I see it, it's shortsighted to focus solely on the collector market. All the scalping and shortages probably reduces kids exposure to the better toys, the ones that get you hooked.

ephbot wrote:2. The difference goes to nobody but the scalper. It makes sense that we would rather see the profits go to the producer, in this case, Hasbro, because we know that the money will go towards making more (or better) product. The outcome of this action also leads to a societal benefit (more, or better toys for fans). There is no societal benefit when all the profits go to scalpers.

Well scalpers help them sell out stock. The faster they sellout, the sooner they are reordered, and the more they can sell. The scalper makes a tidy profit, but so does Hasbro if they can keep pace with demand.

The only trouble for Hasbro in managing the fine balance between keeping up with demand, and overproduction. But that's good for kids and collectors alike, because it leads to big discounts and stock clear-outs.

Where do you draw the line at scalping?

Buying 10 of the same 10 dollar figure and selling them as 50 dollar BINs on Ebay?

Buying 10 of the same 10 dollar figure and selling them with 10 dollar starting bids on Ebay and seeing what they sell for?

Is it alright to buy up 10 of the same ten dollar figure so that you can offer them up to other board members for 12 dollars and shipping?

How about buying a single 10 dollar figure and putting it on Ebay with a 50 dollar BIN?

What about buying 2 of the same 10 dollar figures and selling one for 20 dollars so that you've gotten the one you wanted for free?

The way I see it "scalpers" provide a necessary service. If I can't find a certain figure, and I'm willing to pay a higher price, the scalper are there to provide me with the opportunity. Scalpers are not the ones who make figures desirable. Fans are. Because fans were snatching up '08 Bumblebee figures left and right, the "scalpers" saw an opening and grabbed a bunch as well. If they weren't already selling out, the Scalpers wouldn't have bothered. This idea that the only reason things are rare is because scalpers have bought all of them is false. Scalpers can make certain figures harder to find, but they are not the main cause of scarcity.

And yes, I do this all the time. When I'm browsing through hobby shops, if I see a big-ticket item that I've been looking for (Overlord, SOC figures, etc) for upwards of 20,000 yen, I'll keep browsing to see if there's anything else at the shop that I can ebay to keep my costs down. Thus, I'm able to build my collection, offer Japanese collectables to people who aren't fortunate enough to live within easy traveling distance to a bunch of hobby shops, and usually wind up with a bit left over to save up.

Xgamer wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:I wanted to start this thread to give us a chance to openly discuss the "Scalping" issue and determine as a fandom the best way to establish an industry standard that we all can agree on. now, i'm not up for flame wars and potential bashings here.. so please be respectful of others in this thread.. I don't want to see this one get locked for any reason..

There have been many threads like this in the past. This one will probably end the same-locked. I can't help but wonder if you are just stirring the Hornet's nest for entertainment. Any true collector would be looking for TFs, not complaing about scalpers.

Any true collectors huh?? So now not only are you insulting me as a true collector, but your also insinuating that I'm starting crap by this post, when clearly i'm trying to establish a concensus as I referenced in my first post.. your completely wrong, and in my opinion, are acting an ass right off the bat in your response..

Xgamer wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:Now you know what else is funny, to see how many of us will just post the best reseller and hottest buy, without even thinking about it... you guys are helping the scalpers..

Its not funny, its sad. Its fine for a person to pay more for retail. Most people here buy from BBTS for example- I feel that they overcharge even for imports, but I don't fault any for buying from them. Maintaining overseas contacts is time consuming.

I agree that BBTS is over charging, and that it's the cost of doing overseas business... but you misunderstand my sentence.. I said it's funny to see people just posting responses based on the topic and not actually reading the first post, thus enabling the would be internet scalpers access to what's hot and profitable..YOU SHOULD READ BETTER!!!

Xgamer wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:consider the recent unpleasantness of the online bazillion Transformers the movie 08 Bumblebee deluxe toys..there are some many online and not in the retail stores it's almsot insane.. it's like people realized that the 08 Bumblebee was the best deluxe toy out there, and because of demand bought huge lots and sold them online for others to buy at a huge rate!! this screwed alot of us who went to the stores, wasted our gas, and time, in a search for them...

Simple solution is to hunt down the TFs instead of making threads complaining about scalpers.

You know, I'm a collector which means caring about the hobby, and I am not just a Consumer or mindless buying machine!! I enjoy the fandom and talking to fellow transformers enthusiasts, so that also makes me a fan, and when a concern arises...I think I'm well within my rights to discuss it with fellow fans!!! obviously you have no idea what it means to be a "Fan" versus a Consumer... which is quite sad, because then you'd actually get what I'm trying to discuss here..you should try bringing something nice to the table will you, instead of spouting off at the mouth like some smartass...

Xgamer wrote:

skywarp-2 wrote:if your a supporter of profiteering, then I say fine, but should a scalper be allowed to come to a forum, ask finely tuned questions about a particular toy, then go out and buy them up?? I say No!! because that is wrong.. and is the exact reason for my title of this thread.. to lead the scalpers here to see what we as a fandom consider wrong, and the right way to be a part of it...

And to also let you scalpers know..

WE are on to you!!

Problem is- in the "real" world, there is no true wrong or right. Life isn't in black and white.

In the "real world"... here is another perfect example of your intentions to seem smart and superior in your response to this diuscussion.. in the real world, this is a fandom about transformers, a toy, cartoon and comic property.. the real world isn't a part of most of the stuff here.. if you want real world turn on MTV!!!

also, nothing is black and white, and I do admit there are grey areas in the scalper debate, but I do feel that a scalper will not stop and give a child a chance to get a toy on the shelf if there is just one left.. I as a "Collector" would.. and that's the main distinction...if you don't understand that then go and mindlessly buy toys and hunt, because this subject is too real for you!!

ephbot wrote:Looking at scalpers from a simple economic perspective, they're not so bad. In essence, through after-market prices, they show what the consumer is actually willing to pay for the product.

I agree, but to a point that with a recent item that just hit shelves, and then promptly ends up on the aftermarket for a huge price increase, then the consumer, if a collector or fan, is then forced to pay a higher premium due to the stores being wiped out of stock, so that higher premium is determined by the lack of stock and the desire of the collector...which should not be that way...

ephbot wrote:The problem lies, I think, within intent. I don't think anybody seriously gets angry about the price inflation of the original BW Rattrap, for example, as compared to '08 Bumblebee. The person selling Rattrap is more likely to have been a collector without the intention of turning it around for a quick profit. The fact that he did, in retrospect, was like an "accident," or, he "got lucky." With Bumblebee, the market knew it was going to be popular, and, in a sense, knew demand wouldn't significantly decrease with a price increase.

Bumblethumper is right to say that "nothing has a fixed value." But, when the "real" (based upon where supply meets demand) value of the product is known in aftermarket prices, two things come to mind:

1. The well-known establishment of price-points at retail. Although an inflated price may be what we would actually pay for the product, we also know that, had supply not been gobbled up by the scalpers, we could buy them at specific, lower, prices.

2. The difference goes to nobody but the scalper. It makes sense that we would rather see the profits go to the producer, in this case, Hasbro, because we know that the money will go towards making more (or better) product. The outcome of this action also leads to a societal benefit (more, or better toys for fans). There is no societal benefit when all the profits go to scalpers.

But after all of this economic mumbo-jumbo (sorry, long post), the thing that seems to be touched only briefly upon in this thread is how this affects kids. In reality, the nostalgia and collector's market for toys has not existed for very long. Up until the last few years, I don't think companies have ever had any adult market for toys in mind. That being said, I would be crushed now as a kid looking at all the empty pegs.

I completely agree with you there.. the demand for a popular toy is high, but the scalpers just make it that much more difficult to buy a toy in the stores these days, which as a collector I'm kinda upset about..

ephbot wrote:No wonder kids are playing with toys less and video games more. As the toy market becomes a joint-market with collectors, kids just don't have the same resources to compete with collectors and scalpers. There is no similar supply crunch in the video game market; you didn't see the same after-market for Halo 3 when it came out, because, for the most part, they could still be found at retail. I'm not saying we should do pre-orders for toys like there was for Halo, to guarantee stock, but come on, think of the kids.

A scalper will not think of the kids, but just profits and the kid or their parents as potential customers or suckers depending on the scalper and their morals..

think of the trade shows and convention guys but they are buying huge amounts of Wal-Mart stocks and Target exclusives as we speak in anticipation for BotCon..and or online business..everyone needs to make a living..but that living if done to excess like the Bumblebee 08 concept toy will eventually cripple the industry and drive most kids to shy away from toys because what's the use of getting into a toyline if the stock is never there, but online at a huge price??

Bumblethumper wrote:

ephbot wrote:2. The difference goes to nobody but the scalper. It makes sense that we would rather see the profits go to the producer, in this case, Hasbro, because we know that the money will go towards making more (or better) product. The outcome of this action also leads to a societal benefit (more, or better toys for fans). There is no societal benefit when all the profits go to scalpers.

Well scalpers help them sell out stock. The faster they sellout, the sooner they are reordered, and the more they can sell. The scalper makes a tidy profit, but so does Hasbro if they can keep pace with demand.

The only trouble for Hasbro in managing the fine balance between keeping up with demand, and overproduction. But that's good for kids and collectors alike, because it leads to big discounts and stock clear-outs.

actually I disagree, alot of times there have been overstock on certain items, and usually unpopular ones.. but the idea that Hasbro will always restock after a store sell out is not a guarantee, look at the classics, once they were gone, they were gone.. the movie stuff took precedence..which meant less stock and higher online prices....and there's also a chance that Hasbro will never make a particular figure ever again..

Professor Smooth wrote:Where do you draw the line at scalping?

Buying 10 of the same 10 dollar figure and selling them as 50 dollar BINs on Ebay?

yes, I personally draw the line there...

Professor Smooth wrote:Buying 10 of the same 10 dollar figure and selling them with 10 dollar starting bids on Ebay and seeing what they sell for?

that is scalping...

Professor Smooth wrote:Is it alright to buy up 10 of the same ten dollar figure so that you can offer them up to other board members for 12 dollars and shipping?

now that is being a helpful fan and providing a "service"

Professor Smooth wrote:How about buying a single 10 dollar figure and putting it on Ebay with a 50 dollar BIN?

that's not right either...

Professor Smooth wrote:What about buying 2 of the same 10 dollar figures and selling one for 20 dollars so that you've gotten the one you wanted for free?

that's not bad...that's giving a little compensation to yourself, which i'm all for.. just not over doing it..

Professor Smooth wrote:The way I see it "scalpers" provide a necessary service. If I can't find a certain figure, and I'm willing to pay a higher price, the scalper are there to provide me with the opportunity.

Actually when I see that, I see an online eBay store whose out to provide stock which is similar to BBTS, and not some guy whose used to swiping as mucha s he can from all the stores in his area to provide a service to those outside of the city or country he lives.. there are online stores that offer that service..plus amazon.com

Professor Smooth wrote:Scalpers are not the ones who make figures desirable. Fans are. Because fans were snatching up '08 Bumblebee figures left and right, the "scalpers" saw an opening and grabbed a bunch as well. If they weren't already selling out, the Scalpers wouldn't have bothered. This idea that the only reason things are rare is because scalpers have bought all of them is false. Scalpers can make certain figures harder to find, but they are not the main cause of scarcity.

I agree fans got to them, but with as much stock that hit the shelves and as much that ended up online, ther e is a clear disjointedness there between the local stores shelves and the online scalpers.. the toy shops and legitiment eBay sellers shops are different.. they aren't scalpers and alot of them get cases from a source for their business, with a slight increase for profit..I can see buying from them versus a scalper's collected horde.. it's telling the difference that's the hard part..

Professor Smooth wrote:And yes, I do this all the time. When I'm browsing through hobby shops, if I see a big-ticket item that I've been looking for (Overlord, SOC figures, etc) for upwards of 20,000 yen, I'll keep browsing to see if there's anything else at the shop that I can ebay to keep my costs down. Thus, I'm able to build my collection, offer Japanese collectables to people who aren't fortunate enough to live within easy traveling distance to a bunch of hobby shops, and usually wind up with a bit left over to save up.

that's not being a scalper, that's a perfectly fine way to help yourself out, without being overly evil to another collector in need..

Now, what if you're scalping for fairly altruistic reasons? For example, I used to offer to pick things up for members of another board at cost (plus shipping). However, after enough people complained about the high shipping estimates (and shipping from Japan anywhere using EMS is never cheap) I stopped that offer. However, I still had a bunch of stuff. Normally, I'd put a low BIN on it or just offer it to other collectors, but, as "luck" would have it, a friend of mine was having a hard time with some credit card bills. So I ebayed the lot of it without the usual low BINs. This particular set of Ebay items included a couple of Brave Maximi, a boxed G1 Fort Max, a boxed Star Saber, and a ton of other high-end collectables that the original buyers did not want to pay for. Total profit on all of that was around 1,500 USD. I gave every cent of that to my friend who now has one less credit card bill to deal with. You can't possibly make the argument that I didn't scalp these figures. On some of them, I made 10 times what I'd paid. But I really don't see what I did there as being wrong.

In response to Bumblethumper's insight:

Well scalpers help them sell out stock. The faster they sellout, the sooner they are reordered, and the more they can sell. The scalper makes a tidy profit, but so does Hasbro if they can keep pace with demand.

Yes... and no. The basic premise of the argument is that scalpers buy up the supply at retail, prompting retailer to order more stock, leading to profits at Hasbro if they can keep up with demand. Yet, I believe the crucial flaw in this argument is that the side of demand isn't properly accounted for.

Although scalpers do buy out retailers' stock faster than regular consumers, one negative externality is the apparent absence of supply to the regular consumer. Depending upon the nature of the consumer, there can be several outcomes. If the consumer in question was an adult collector, they can either:

- Try another store.
- Try the after-market.

However, these options are not necessarily available to the kid without a car or an eBay account. In this case, the kid would probably purchase a substitute product; another Transformer, another action figure, a new computer game, et cetera. Because the consumer can't access the product, we can say that we have an inefficient market.

Even the premise that it is good that scalpers buy up stock quickly is, in some ways, flawed. We saw how scalpers didn't buy up every figure; they only purchase the ones in high demand to resell at higher prices. Thus, the stock left on the shelves are peg-warmers. If, for example, '08 Bumblebee consisted of 1/5 of the retailer's stock of deluxe-sized Transformers, it isn't likely that they will reorder when 80% of their original stock is still on the shelves.

Bumblethumper's intuition is good in his next point.

The only trouble for Hasbro in managing the fine balance between keeping up with demand, and overproduction. But that's good for kids and collectors alike, because it leads to big discounts and stock clear-outs.

The problem is that scalpers are an unforeseen externality. While it seems on the surface that Hasbro can sell more figures when scalpers consume most of the initial supply, this assumption doesn't take into account that consumers may look to the after-market first. If the average consumer sees that retail supply is apparently nonexistent and if they do not have the sure knowledge that the retail supply will be replenished, they will look to the next-best option. For the collector, this may mean eBay. For the kid, the next-best option may be another toy entirely.

Furthermore, the societal benefits of big discounts and stock clear-outs are offset by the harm of a glut of undesired stock. The clear-outs, the glut of supply, are due to overproduction based upon bad data predicting "false" demand. Scalpers give bad data, as they are not really on the demand curve because of the nature of their reselling practice. Neither are they on the initial supply curve, as the act of consumption would arbitrarily place them on the demand curve. As such, they lead to false assumptions about demand. Hasbro thinks demand is high so it ramps up production, when in actually much of the "demand" is scalpers turning the products back into supply on the after-market. By the time the new shipment gets shipped, much of the initial demand has been satisfied by the after-market. Retailers are then forced to put things on discount or clearance, significantly lowering their margins of profit, decreasing their incentive to order as much of the product in the future.

Not to retread on topics, as I notice both skywarp-2 and Professor Smooth have posted as I'm writing this, but there are certain economic arguments that Professor Smooth made that don't take into account the externalities that come with scalpers.

The way I see it "scalpers" provide a necessary service. If I can't find a certain figure, and I'm willing to pay a higher price, the scalper are there to provide me with the opportunity. Scalpers are not the ones who make figures desirable. Fans are. Because fans were snatching up '08 Bumblebee figures left and right, the "scalpers" saw an opening and grabbed a bunch as well. If they weren't already selling out, the Scalpers wouldn't have bothered. This idea that the only reason things are rare is because scalpers have bought all of them is false. Scalpers can make certain figures harder to find, but they are not the main cause of scarcity.

While it is true that demand has a part in setting price, supply does as well. In essence, because retail supply was perceived as being nonexistent, the willingness to pay increased. In that respect, the "real" value of '08 Bumblebee may even be over-inflated based upon the consumer's amount of knowledge at the time.

Scalpers were also pre-informed of to-be market trends. Anticipation for the '08 Bumblebee and Target exclusive G1 repaints and similar products were extremely high. Boards, such as this one, informed scalpers which toys were to be in higher demand. This is where we saw some surprises; for example, nobody expected Wreckage to be particularly popular beforehand, and so he was more readily available. In this case, the market itself decided demand after people found that they liked the mold; in this case, scalpers weren't the main reason for scarcity. In the case of '08 Bumblebee and the G1 repaints, I would say they, with pre-knowledge of the emerging market, are.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I hope it will be helpful in terms of its economic content.

Note: the section on the place of scalpers on the supply/demand curves was very hastily constructed. The basic premise should be economically sound, although the wording may be fuzzy. The gist of it is that scalpers inhabit some hazy place on both curves, throwing both curves of through this disinformation, and leading to an inefficient market.