The Energon Pub

LMAO.......yeah Megatron and Prime will do their final battle with swords. Anyone else see the obvious that the anime was targeted for the Japanese?

By the way, I pray that somewhere down the line in the Movies, that Prime and Megs/Galvy can have a long final battle that rivals the original G-1. That G1 battle is iconic.

I have always been under the impression that Headmasters - Masterforce - Victory - Zone - Operation Combination - Battlestars WAS G1 (just in place of Rebirth), just written for/produced by the eastren audience (since Hasbro decided us here in the westren audience wernt watching it anymore)..

I have found that the focus on "teamwork" or "friendship" and "young human/flesh creatures (zone)" as a central character was always annoying in the eastren produced shows (although lets not forget that spike and bumblebee is what most of the human character(s) involvements are based on).. It seems that the eastren based shows are all about having the "good" guys using "teamwork" and/or "friendship" defeat the "bad" guys and somethimes with the "gotta catch them all" gimmick thrown in.. It becomes too formula driven..

I find it reall funny how people forget/dont know and then flame things for "changing" into what they are flaming.. ie Eastren TF (even tho it takes most of its selling points from westren shows) and tuner cars (most of the stuff people call "rice" started with muscle cars).. To know where you are it helps to understand where we have been

Victory Leo is top-tier.

End of discussion.

G1 isn't anime. It was produced in America, and drawn in an American Style, not an Anime style. If it was entirely produced in Japan with Japanese Voice actors, then dubbed over by US Studios, it would be an anime. But since it's an American show, despite being animated in Japan, it's not.

I think bad dubbing was a bigger problem in the Unicron trilogy than usual. There are times when what is being said is so far divorced from what is happening on screen, all you have to do to see how far into left field the dialogue has wandered is hit the mute button.

That said, I believe an honest story is going to resonate no matter who it comes from/caters to. On that logic, I do not care who is making my Transformer cartoons, as long as they do a good job.

MYoung23 wrote:Adapting classic stories like Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" wasnt uncommon to do in cartoons.

"Decepticon Raider" is a great showpiece of both what I love and hate most in G1. It has excellent character development and Decepticon group dynamics (Starscream in particular is- realistically- evil as the pit in that episode, and intentionally or not, it foreshadows the way he'll later keep Bruticus under control), but it also has a, shall we kindly say, negligent treatment of facts and logic, as it proudly displays its anachronisms and litters middle English with 80's slang (I think I vomited in my throat a little when the princess says, "Thou art a blockhead!" EDIT - Sorry, I goofed; it was "idiot," not "blockhead," and it was the knight who said it, not the princess).

Nobody is going to say G1 had consistent quality; just that, when it was good, it was very, very good (and when it was bad, it was death by opera).

Hello all,

Ive been reading this post earnestly for a while, since as a old G1 fan, and general 80s cartoon nut, it interests me. I also ponder the anime question quite a bit. This will be long, so bear with me. Also it might appear to be controversial, but if you THINK and not just knee-jerk out all the stuff the various cultural (or anti-cultural) influences, you might see my point.

First we must consider that there is both a strong classical component, manifesting first in true classicalism from Rome and Greece, later resurrected as Neo-Cassicalism and a strong Teutonic Component, manifesting in ancient Teutonic paganism, and later in true Gothic culture that forms the basis of Western Culture. Our society and general collective unconscious is filled with these archetypes. When someone see's He-man, or even Duke from Gi-Joe, whether they know it or not, they are in some small way seeing our ancient Heroes. They see Siegfried, they see Beowulf, They see an ancient link to a lost and past culture. A Pagan world of magic that has long since been continually eclipsed. It offers us a little superficial link to OUR heroes and Myths.

Viral has asked the question "What do westerners find Alien about Anime ?". And although some answers were given which are quite good, I will try to elaborate.

There are very VERY different styles when it comes to Western and Eastern animation (and culture in general). And sometimes the originating country means SQUAT when determining if something is more Western or more Anime. What does mean something is The PRIMARY feel and style. This does not include little touches borrowed !

One of the best examples of this is Castlevania. This series was made in Japan, originated in Japan and was first released in Japan. However I would say Castlevania 1-IV is unequivocally western in style. Lets look at the box art of Castlevania three. Anyone with any knowledge of Neoclassical, The Romantic Revival or the Gothic movement (not goths) will immediately recognize a very European style in it. Trevor is muscular, In proper proportions, wearing relatively accurate clothes. Trevor almost glows gold while the monsters are shaded dark and in shadows. You don't need an art lesson here, but one can clearly see this was made from, and with a western mind in mind. Skip ahead now to Curse of darkness. The style has switched to primarily Binoshen. The clothes are more flamboyant. The Heroes have a more feminine look, are less rugged and dirty. Trevors "Dinner party tails" are quite a contrast to his appearance on the Castlevania II cover. The old Trevor reminds our deep minds of our classic folk heroes. The new Trevor, although he may have redeeming qualities, is not entrenched in the folk soul. Lets face it, European people are going to feel more comfortable with characters and styles reminiscent of their culture, and who look like them. Is this bad ? Hell no. Its great. Im proud my kids will idolize great European Heroes like the Polish Husaria or The great Nordic warriors. They should. Its THEIR culture. Theres nothing superior about this. Its completely natural. Will they learn about other cultures, of course, but that learning will not eclipse or try to replace their own heritage, just as everyone here would agree, that Western culture SHOULD NOT replace or eclipse Japanese culture. Am I upset about Casltevania, no I am not. They made it, and Im glad that the Jpanaese started to explore their own culture and make castlevania for them, not just us. I just wish we could do the same.

I as a westerner fail to see the appeal of women being raped and tortured by tentacles. I fail to find humor in peace signs or crosses in the eyes or whatever. I hate school girls and sailor out-fits. I see no appeal in exclaiming your attack right before you make it, then jumping 1000 feet in the air, with techno music blaring and J-pop coming through in front of a multi-colored background. Now many of you will think I am acting rather superior, but if you look closer I am not. Obviously the examples Ive mentioned are extremes and not indicative of some Japanese perversion. However these things are common in some Anime. I just don't "get-it". I don't get it in the same way people from other cultures may not completely get Conan the Barbarian. Now granted most westerners do not overtly get it either. But those who were raised reading things like Beowulf or Siegfried or other European myths get it immediately. There are common cultural themes and ideas with deep roots in our folk soul. Now, westerners will not overtly "get-it" but will think its awesome none the less. Through indirect exposure through culture and the collective unconscious they will feel a resonating.

Yes the styles do blend, and all art borrows from each other. The East and West do this in animation and have done it for a long time. Disney, Takara, Looney toons etc. These are all Valid points. But you are missing the main point.

Think of the style as a spectrum. You can move the bar towards the west or towards the east. Often times both Anime and Cartoons move the bar a little and display aspects of the opposite end of the spectrum. However does this make an "American show" eastern for little specs of Anime style, or vice versa. Absolutely not.

Ive watched some Anime, and some was ok, other anime I absolutely hated. It made me feel sick and disgusted. Does this mean I think the Japanese are sick and disgusting, no not at all. I have very high regard for East Asian culture. But its not my culture. This gets to the root of the G1/Armada debate.

There seems to be a Nation tug of war over G1, was it American or Japanese ? I personally believe it was American. Yes the idea, and the toys originated in Japan, and yes the Animation was out sourced to the East (would an American Flag made in China, have its cultural roots there, or just its manufacture?) and yes it had collaboration between both nations. However, the look, feel themes, language, voices, plot etc. They were all created with American ideals in mind.

Whats this got to do with Cartoons (or Anime for the "elite") ? Well cartoons are a form of artwork. They are watched by children and leave a lifelong impression in them. This site is complete proof of that. Our cartoon preferences, have deeper running implications than we think. That Viral is why Westerners often find Anime "alien". For the simple reason is that IT IS. It may be less so now that we've had thirty years of exposure and inter style mixing. But a leopard can never change its spots. Cultures go back thousands of years, and thats something that can't be done away with by a few cheap cartoons, east or west.

No ones got the gonards to say it, but I will. There is a component that runs deeper than cartoon preferences with the Western/Anime debate. It essentially is a debate, whether conscious or not of how much foreign influence in coming into western culture, and if it should be resisted, embraced, simply tolerated and ignored, or broken into factions.

Where do I personally stand ? Well as I said I have a high regard for Asian culture, but its running a bit thin. Why because my culture is now sparesly found. Think that statement over.

Id love a good old fashioned American style show. With animation that strives for realism based more upon classicalism (such as the style of Visionaries, or at least some of the artwork) and the Romantic ideal of the hero. That is western in style and builds upon our old heroes. One that doesn't feel the need to throw in a bunch of Characters from other cultures for "diversity" *coughJonStewartCough* (unless in like Conan the Adventurer, it makes sense for the plot) One that isnt ashamed to be western, or more bluntly *gasps and boos* European in style. The Old Batman and Superman Animated series were pretty good, as was some justice league. BUt compare that to the number of YuGiOh style toons out there.

I for one am getting a little tired of seeing so much Japanese animation being fed to our Children. Is it because I dislike Japan, or the Japanese ? NO! not at all. I Have great respect for them. However, just because I respect a people and wish them all the best does not mean that I wish my own treasured culture to be replaced by it or eclipsed by it. Read that again. Its a defensive thing, not an offensive thing. My worry is that my children will see only Japanese style, Japanese themes and see Glorification of another culture. Now as glorious as that culture is, we have our own glorious culture, that I find worth in, and would be happy to know my future generations feel the same. Just as I would be happy to know in 1000 years there will still be strong Shinto and other Japanese Ideals in Japan.

It comes down to this.

Human beings want a culture. They will almost always feel more comfortable with their own culture. This is a feeling reaction from the deep mind and less of a logical one.IN western society, there is a very odd situation that appears no where else in the world. Western children are told their culture is wrong, evil and they should take no pride it it. Meanwhile they are told that any other non-western culture is to be celebrated. This is one reason anime is so popular. Other cultures are in dawg, and he-man is just a little too blonde to be "politically correct". Does this mean that some Anime fans dont have a deeper relationship with that medium ? NO of course not, but lets face it, alot of anime watching is the product of a cultural void that we created. We created it when we decided that it was ok for everyone else to like their cultures, but not us.

Why all this 80's nostalgia ? Why do people get vicious about it ? Its simple. It makes us feel like we belong. It reminds of of the good old days. We fear they are never coming back. And as Ive illustrated above, it touches on some deep running issues.


Ive said my piece, and I'm not sure if I want to invest the next seven days debating it. But Ive said it nonetheless.

Wordsworth.

I post very rarely, so my first comment on this thread.

Wordsworth999, I'm not going to pick your whole post apart and argue every point of it. I'm just stating that in my little opinion, the european culture isn't really that great glorious thing you said. (and I'm a euro myself, so...)

I mean, our european culture has oppressed more than half of the world in the name of colonialism, has created such monstrosities as fascism, and so on. And we have forcefully spread our culture for centuries in other parts of the world. We also created industrialism and all the environment-destroying habits with it.
(I'm just pointing that, not interested in going to historical debate, especially not in a language I'm not 100% comfortable with.)

So, maybe it's not that bad after all if our kids (and us) get exposed to other cultures, we might even learn some less destructive behavior patterns.

forgive me if this was brought up ..

Transformers Generation 1 - the cartoon - is a US based animated cartoon that got imported to japan.
(Japan did not get TF:TM-animated until the early 90's(i think around 1992)

Yes, the toy designs for the orig TF's were japanese based, but the name "Transformers" was coined by Hasbro for use in the US market in the eaerly 80's

so in all reality ... Transformers as we know and love it today is an American Concept, that the Japanese have evolved and continued for us

Ghaax wrote:I post very rarely, so my first comment on this thread.

Wordsworth999, I'm not going to pick your whole post apart and argue every point of it. I'm just stating that in my little opinion, the european culture isn't really that great glorious thing you said. (and I'm a euro myself, so...)

I mean, our european culture has oppressed more than half of the world in the name of colonialism, has created such monstrosities as fascism, and so on. And we have forcefully spread our culture for centuries in other parts of the world. We also created industrialism and all the environment-destroying habits with it.
(I'm just pointing that, not interested in going to historical debate, especially not in a language I'm not 100% comfortable with.)

So, maybe it's not that bad after all if our kids (and us) get exposed to other cultures, we might even learn some less destructive behavior patterns.

Have you actually LOOKED into your culture. Not just what universities or television have to say.

A history lesson would be a good thing.

Europeans have been destructive. Yes. So have EVERY people.

How about the Rape of Nanjing?

What about the oh so tolerant religion of peace ? Islam.(Again this is not indicative of ALL peoples)

http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index. ... e&sid=1167

1,000,000 white slaves sold in the North American Slave markets ?

What about the slave trade that exists in South Africa and Zimbabwe today ? $30,000 for a blonde girl, to be used as whoever see's fit. Hey, her leaders, whom she had no contact with or sway over did horrible things, so she deserves it right ?

Mentioning slavery, the Chinese and the First Nations people also had black slaves.

Environmental Destruction, the Chinese have overtaken the US in Greenhouse gas emissions. China and India are in way worse environmental shape than Europe, which focuses on clean energy. Do you honestly think that if white people didn't invent technology, someone else would not have ? Also, no one has forced nations like China to adopt technology, they like all humans have done so to advance. The fact that the technology was destructive was not because "white people are inherently evil" Its because all technology when getting off its feet, is heavily weighted in natural resources. The Environmental impact was not known, but when it was the environmental movement.

Not to mention that the environmental movement had its roots in American and European culture. Greenpeace is a Nordic institution.

No one is arguing that people shouldn't be exposed to other cultures, but rather cultures, be they European or Asian or any other, should not eclipse one another.

You mention Fascism etc. Im Polish, my people are white, and never had any part in black slavery, or in the English Industrial movement or French Colonies. Yet you group all Europeans together ! What was the first country the Nazi's invaded ? Poland. They got their city leveled, but still got to share the fruits of the worlds Euro bashing. There are many European white nations like Poland or Croatia, or hell even Ireland who were oppressed by others. Even in those nations that did commit wrongs, you really think it was the bulk of people, or the few elitist fops at the top ?

Yugoslavia was under the thumb of the Sultan. These people were brutally oppressed by Tyrants. Are they guilty too ?

The handful of Western European governments perpetrated these atrocities. Do you think the poor Spanish beggar is just as Guilty as the Conquistador who wrongfully pillaged ?

All people are guilty of terrible sins. But that doesn't mean the people should face death, genetic destruction, cultural genocide or whatever. Horrible destructive atrocities will continue even if every European person disappeared tomorrow. Evil is not property of one group. Both Good and Evil exist in the Human soul. ANd all cultures have beauty and something to offer ALL OF THEM. From Africa, to China, From Germany to Peru.

My point is that there are good and bad points in all cultures. We as modern people should wash away the bad and focus on the good and spiritually enlightening points, to become better in the future, not chastise our future Generations for crimes they had no part in. I feel very badly for anyone who suffered, black, brown, white purple or whatever. Ive never been guilty of making that suffering, so I don't think I should lose my culture for crimes I had no part in.

Remember that whole point I made about THINKING about what I said.

This was the kind of debate I DIDNT want.

Lets get back to Transformers.

(Preferably something about Astrotrain or possibly Bliztwing)

Wordsworth

Nemesis Prime wrote:forgive me if this was brought up ..

Transformers Generation 1 - the cartoon - is a US based animated cartoon that got imported to japan.
(Japan did not get TF:TM-animated until the early 90's(i think around 1992)

Yes, the toy designs for the orig TF's were japanese based, but the name "Transformers" was coined by Hasbro for use in the US market in the eaerly 80's

so in all reality ... Transformers as we know and love it today is an American Concept, that the Japanese have evolved and continued for us

This is fairly accurate.

Fans have to realize however that some people prefer the more American flavored Transformers, and other the more Japanese . Theres nothing wrong with this. I think its great. Would I love an old school G1 style show, done by Americans ? Yes! but I don't want to deny anyone else their fun. Im only trying to explain why people get really emotional at times concerning seemingly trivial matters. I think Transformers spans both American and Japanese styles. It belongs equally to both cultures. Some of the series were American style, others Japanese Anime style. Little bits in between.

No ones saying you can't love Anime. Just like G1 fans can love American style toons.

C

Well, the new shows are poorly animated. That about does it.

Mainframe should get the liscense back.

I have never seen any TF:Cybertron.

I just watched this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EgRlFkZN8Y

"Youve got the biggest heart!"

Barf! Those are some harsh soldiering words. Quite a far cry from "Such heroic nonsense..."

Whoa.

I don't have problems of the way characters are depicted in either English or Japanese. (Hey there was one Japanese version where I saw Wheelie was uber kawaii, way less annoying than he was in American 3rd season) and of course both had very good V/A's although for me '84 English G1 seasons 1 & 2 inches out (*Points at avatar*). Yep on the brain, people, on the brain.

My biggest gripe with any transformers anime is the often the transformation sequences can tend to get overblown, especially combiners. Get to the shooting up or throwing the opponent around already!!![/b]

Wordsworth999 has made some excellent points, worth taking to heart in my opinion. I would like to add another factor which, to me, has made a large difference between G1 and BW, on one hand, and the Unicon trilogy and suchlike, on the other. Mind, I haven't seen much of the latter, mostly because it lacks the nostalgia factor of the former for me--by the time those later series came around, I was enjoying other anime series, but those didn't suit me.

I have noticed, having taken a closer look at G1, that there isn't much of a need for a physically human cast, because the Transformers themselves have such well-rounded, human, peersonalities themselves. The writers weren't set to make them seem alien, apparently--the more the viewer/buyer could relate, the better. Even the movements of the robots were uanbashedly human in most cases. The fact that they were supposedly made out of metal and of a completely different species and origin made no difference. I'm thinking of a scene in which Optimus Prime is rolling a basketball along his arms and over his back while keeping an eye on a monitor...what child should have trouble relating to this character? The transformations of the 'bots and 'cons were cool, yes, but they didn't take center stage over plot and personality.

Now, in what I've seen of the Japanese TF series, there's something lacking in the overal characters of the mechs. Maybe I haven't watched enough, maybe it is a fallacy of the dubs, but something just feels unreal about them. Is it a lack of maturity, resulting from the age level of the target audience (in the States--I havn't seen the originals)? Is it that the movements and transformations are executed with so much focus on looking realistic that they loose any semblance of humanity? That may be the look they were going for, but it cuts the viewer off from emotional attatchment to the bots to some degree. Maybe this emphasis on the robotic aspect is one of the ways the Japanese origin of these shows really comes through. Or, maybe the animators were just really selling their style of the time.

This leaves us with the human cast as a sort of go-between to help us figure the Transformers out. I don't feel this works as well as just having very human-like transformers to relate to. I am curious as to how the new '08 cartoon is going to adress this, as these Transformers are supposedly going to be able to emote very well in this new style.

Hope it works, because, aesthetically, any of the earlier styles has them beat, hands down.

Oh, yeah, same goes for BW as for G1, in my above comment.

Friend of Da Panda Symbol wrote:I don't have problems of the way characters are depicted in either English or Japanese. (Hey there was one Japanese version where I saw Wheelie was uber kawaii, way less annoying than he was in American 3rd season) and of course both had very good V/A's although for me '84 English G1 seasons 1 & 2 inches out (*Points at avatar*). Yep on the brain, people, on the brain.

My biggest gripe with any transformers anime is the often the transformation sequences can tend to get overblown, especially combiners. Get to the shooting up or throwing the opponent around already!!![/b]

I watch a lot of anime, but really. The first time I tried to look at one of the Japanese version episodes and they actually said 'Traaansforrmuu' I had to end my relationship with that show right then and there.

My guess is, if it's the later (dubbed) series, it's either the focus on human (mostly child) characters... and the bad dialogue (as a result of rushing to dub the Japanese shows, like Armada).

I liked Headmasters, and Masterforce and Victory even more so. Worthy sequels to G1 post "The Return of Optimus Prime"; the animation was much more consistent than Season 3, even if the whole idea of "out with the old, in with the new" took some getting used to. It was cool to see some of these Transformers actually animated.

I still maintain that Masterforce pulled off the impossible -- making two things I've always snubbed my nose at palatable -- merging humans and Transformers and also making some of the most uninteresting Transformers ever (outside of Grand Max, God Ginrai, and Black Zarak) cool! I didn't like Devil Z as a Decepticon leader (Overlord was much cooler) but you can't win them all.

Victory was the most "G1" like of them all, and didn't seem as haphazardly pointed to undo what was established from Transformers Season 3/2010 as much as Headmasters was. You even get cameos from some classic Autobots in it, making the G1 circle complete.

The "Pokemon" like aspect of Armada as animated (and hastily dubbed -- the voice acting was good, just the scripts weren't) was a turnoff, and thankfully that was reduced in both Energon and Cybertron. The only objection I have to the both of them is the inappropriate assignment of names (to preserve copyrights) and general US toyline tweaking...but that's where just watching the Japanese originals come in.

In any case, I forsee the latest crop of animated Transformers to be much easier to watch than what's coming out on Cartoon Network.

juushinkan wrote:My biggest gripe with any transformers anime is the often the transformation sequences can tend to get overblown, especially combiners. Get to the shooting up or throwing the opponent around already!!![/b]

I watch a lot of anime, but really. The first time I tried to look at one of the Japanese version episodes and they actually said 'Traaansforrmuu' I had to end my relationship with that show right then and there.[/quote]

Absolutly. I have to close my eyes or divert my attention somehow when this happens its quite annoying.
Since when does a warrior call out their attack before they do it? RID Prime always calls out what attack he is gonna do before he does. Just stupid. Or Energon where I have to watch Optimus's "Supermode" sequence. I just wanna pull my hair out.

Roddy P wrote:

juushinkan wrote:My biggest gripe with any transformers anime is the often the transformation sequences can tend to get overblown, especially combiners. Get to the shooting up or throwing the opponent around already!!![/b]

I watch a lot of anime, but really. The first time I tried to look at one of the Japanese version episodes and they actually said 'Traaansforrmuu' I had to end my relationship with that show right then and there.

Absolutly. I have to close my eyes or divert my attention somehow when this happens its quite annoying.
Since when does a warrior call out their attack before they do it? RID Prime always calls out what attack he is gonna do before he does. Just stupid. Or Energon where I have to watch Optimus's "Supermode" sequence. I just wanna pull my hair out.

Go watch Masterforce and Victory their the beast Anime Transformer ever.

i lost interest in transformers after Rebirth. Headmasters still retained the animation designs and some concepts from the american seasons but i didnt like the whole throw in a new team and forget everyone else aspect the japanese seem to be known for and the whole magical power of friendship thing. i tried getting into victory and masterforce but i cant accept the fact of having a transformer named god ginrai it just doesnt sound like a transformer name to me and the stories suddently somehow leaned more and more towards super powered humans that had special powers or abilities to use the transformers. It just seemed like the japanese just had to find ways to throw in a tranformation sequence ala sailor moon, and -insiert attack name here- before every attack. the Unicron trilogy was a joke the ONLY part i ever liked where when we saw the Matrix used by optimus in Armada and when Starscream in all his G1 glory made his way as lead enemy for a few episodes in Cybertron that was probably the best Stardcream fanservice ever! despite the anoying fact that suddenly autobots and decepticons because australian lol

Dead Metal wrote:


Do you know that not everithing can be dubed the way it is in Japan?
I mean, you can't just translate it word for word, but you have to translate it so it makes sense in the languge you're dubing it in + it has to look like the carecters say it, mening only speek wile the lips move.

Even so, as one who watched both, the dub was crap. It would've had a better shot if they hadn't tried to shoe-horn it into the continuity of the other two it would've had a better shot, but it was still a rubbish dub.

Also, given that the Japanese almost never worry about lip-sync, seems odd that the Americans should be cut some slack for trying to cram in dialogue (or omit whole pieces of dialogue) because it isn't flush with the up-and-down 'wa wa wa wa' motion of the characters mouth.

Flashback wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:


Do you know that not everithing can be dubed the way it is in Japan?
I mean, you can't just translate it word for word, but you have to translate it so it makes sense in the languge you're dubing it in + it has to look like the carecters say it, mening only speek wile the lips move.

Even so, as one who watched both, the dub was crap. It would've had a better shot if they hadn't tried to shoe-horn it into the continuity of the other two it would've had a better shot, but it was still a rubbish dub.

Also, given that the Japanese almost never worry about lip-sync, seems odd that the Americans should be cut some slack for trying to cram in dialogue (or omit whole pieces of dialogue) because it isn't flush with the up-and-down 'wa wa wa wa' motion of the characters mouth.

Right. I think people who saw the words "match up" for the most part in English (I wonder how animators do that!) in G1, are used to that sort of thing.

There's no need for a literal translation, but one that sounds like they took some time to actually localize the crap after things have been etched in stone (see: Armada for an example of where this didn't happen) would be nice.