The Energon Pub

Slashercon wrote:It's bad enough the Bumblebee of this warriors line recycled the transformation of RID Vehicon

Just two parts: the head reveal and the arms: not a retool

but now Jazz is almost an extensive remold of PRID Bumblebee...

Nope.

and Sideswipe looks like an extensive remold of Beast Hunters Smokescreen.

Nope.

You sure? Jazz looks a lot like Bumblebee

it may be me but why does Jazz look like a Extensive retooling of P-RID bumblebee ? i was like why would they use the P-RID 'bee mold for a character who should have a nicer alt mode ?

Oh Jazz what have they done to you?

A bit disappointed that Jazz doesn't have a visor.
I hope his larger-classed incarnations have one.

Slashercon wrote:Laziness to the umpteenth degree. It's bad enough the Bumblebee of this warriors line recycled the transformation of RID Vehicon, but now Jazz is almost an extensive remold of PRID Bumblebee and Sideswipe looks like an extensive remold of Beast Hunters Smokescreen. Having actually watched the show (and liked it thus far), I can safely say, this line had much potential, but it fell down the quality drain for me.

I summon the all powerful forces and wisdom of the wiki!!!
"Over the course of the various Transformers toy lines, quite a few toys that are similar in appearance have been mistakenly assumed to be "retools" by fans, even though the toys in question often only have superficial similarities, or are merely based around the same basic engineering."
It's happened quite a few times where similar engineering is used between toys, and it doesn't make either toy worse IMO. As long as they can offer us something new with each release I'm content

CombaticonsCombine? wrote:A bit disappointed that Jazz doesn't have a visor.
I hope his larger-classed incarnations have one.

My bad, tired and not thinking. Disregard this post.

Jazz is confusing everybody because the shoulders look near identical to BB. I had to double take that part too, but it's just designed the same way, it's not using the same parts.

Why are so many of the car modes so....square? (rectangular)

Maybe I could turn Jazz into a decent Prime Smokescreen. I didn't buy any version of him since 1 sacrificed screen accuracy to be knockout for transformation, and the other cheat formed sacrificed transformation for screen accuracy.
hhmmm, actually maybe not. The vehicle mode is all wrong.

The toy molds are all unique. Saying that they are 'the same' as previous line transformations is kind of nit picking. Because technically, almost ALL of the autobots have 'the same' transformation. The hoods of the cars become the chest, the back of the car becomes the legs/feet, the arms split from the sides and car doors, the head pops out from near the front windshield... if you want to get t-e-k-n-i-k-a-l about it.

That said, this line just isn't doing anything for me so far. I've seen several in stores, and not felt any pull to buy/own any of them. I'll pass on these in favor of Combiner Wars, thanks.

Has Jazz got the same head sculpt as Grimlock?

-Makes inquisition about the release date of Jazz and Sideswipe
-In-Package images within days

Sideswipe and Jazz are the sexiest figures of this whole line. Bought on sight. I can't wait until someone spots them!

PrymeStriker wrote:-Makes inquisition about the release date of Jazz and Sideswipe
-In-Package images within days

Totaly thought of this when the news dropped.
Are you psychic PS?

Jazz is as much a retool of Prime Bumblebee as the second the toy on the right is a retool of the toy on the left. Or even less so.



In other words, not a retool at all.

OptimalOptimus2 wrote:I just realized something. The first Slipstream toy! (But as an Autobot.)

Somewhere else on the boards I picked apart the claim that PRID Bumblebee and RID15 Jazz are anything close to the same. I don't feel like looking up that analysis but basically except for a few parts (forearms, thighs, etc) they share no tooling and even appear to transform in somewhat different ways. It's a new mold.

That Bot wrote:Somewhere else on the boards I picked apart the claim that PRID Bumblebee and RID15 Jazz are anything close to the same. I don't feel like looking up that analysis but basically except for a few parts (forearms, thighs, etc) they share no tooling and even appear to transform in somewhat different ways. It's a new mold.

Did ya a favor and went and found it for ya.

That Bot wrote:The shoulders are similar, but definitely not identical. The head flap is completely different in both shape AND function between Jazz and Bumblebee. Bee's is a rounded "L" shape that his head sits on, with the middle of the grille sitting behind his head. It moves 180 degrees for transformation. Meanwhile, Jazz's is most likely a regular L shaped piece, with the part sitting behind his head becoming a wedge in the hood of the car (a common Jazz trait). It only rotates 90 degrees. The arms on Jazz form the front fender and grille of the car mode instead of the sides, and they clearly lack the rigid gearing that kept Bee's arms sitting low, instead having a thick moving connection between the shoulders and torso. On top of that, every single part of Jazz is shaped and sculpted differently from those on Bumblebee. They don't share any identifiable parts that I can see, and the only similar elements are the shoulder wheel hubs, the door wings, and the roof of the car on the back. That last trait is extremely common and not limited to just Prime Bumblebee's toys. These are two completely different molds.

That Bot wrote:Here's a vehicle mode comparison, also.


As I pointed out above, Jazz's arms swing forward and he does a fistbump with himself to form the front fender of the car, while Bumblebee's arms tuck in by his sides. The roofs might be similar, although Jazz's lacks the hood panel, with that part of the car instead being made directly out of his calves. I remember people were also suspecting that RID15 Bee was a retool of the PRID Vehicon, which turned out to not be the case. I'm going to go ahead and call that this line is completely new molds for the time being.

hinomars19 wrote:Jazz is confusing everybody because the shoulders look near identical to BB. I had to double take that part too, but it's just designed the same way, it's not using the same parts.

Why are so many of the car modes so....square? (rectangular)

Maybe I could turn Jazz into a decent Prime Smokescreen. I didn't buy any version of him since 1 sacrificed screen accuracy to be knockout for transformation, and the other cheat formed sacrificed transformation for screen accuracy.
hhmmm, actually maybe not. The vehicle mode is all wrong.

Wait, maybe I missed something, were there 2 Prime smokescreen molds?

Also, Sabr, I feel jazz has less in common with bumblebee than Starscream does to Smokescreen. Its just those shoulders distracting us all so much.

william-james88 wrote:Wait, maybe I missed something, were there 2 Prime smokescreen molds?

There was the Prime Arms Micron Smokescreen that was just a head-retool of Knock Out.

william-james88 wrote:Also, Sabr, I feel jazz has less in common with bumblebee than Starscream does to Smokescreen. Its just those shoulders distracting us all so much.

Right on.

Sabrblade wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Wait, maybe I missed something, were there 2 Prime smokescreen molds?

There was the Prime Arms Micron Smokescreen that was just a head-retool of Knock Out.

HOLY F**K! I Never saw that before. That was quite jarring. And yeah, I also think we never got a great smokescreen toy. Oh well.

Alot of you guys are acting as if I'm not on to something. Well if Jazz wasn't identical in design to PRID Bumblebee and seemingly didn't share the same transformation scheme, It wouldn't have been as big a deal as I mentioned, But Sideswipe and Bumblebee also share astounding similarities to past PRID/BeastHunter figures and It has been bothering me lately. The closest example of this I can think of is Universal exclusive Movie Evac being a major remold/similar transformation scheme of DOTM Roadbuster. But apparently, I'm always wrong, even when I show of shred of being possibly right

-("Drama"con has spoken)

Slashercon wrote:Alot of you guys are acting as if I'm not on to something. Well if Jazz wasn't identical in design to PRID Bumblebee and seemingly didn't share the same transformation scheme, It wouldn't have been as big a deal as I mentioned, But Sideswipe and Bumblebee also share astounding similarities to past PRID/BeastHunter figures and It has been bothering me lately. The closest example of this I can think of is Universal exclusive Movie Evac being a major remold/similar transformation scheme of DOTM Roadbuster. But apparently, I'm always wrong, even when I show of shred of being possibly right

-("Drama"con has spoken)

The problem seems to stem from the perceived definition of "retool" or "remold".

As a rule of thumb, if a figure is a retool of another, they share the same base mold. If the retooled part is the head, the rest of the body is the same mold-wise:


Gen. Autobot Skids with his mold mate Crosscut

Sometimes retools are more drastic, changing parts of the vehicle mode as well (that's the basis Combiner Wars is built on). As long as the base mold is the same, it's still considered a retool:


Gen. Autobot Springer with Sandstorm

Things get a bit iffy when only a certain part of an older toy is used, and the new toy is built around it. That actually happened once during RotF, when 2008 Camaro Concept Bumblebee was used for Cannon Bumblebee:


RotF Bumblebee (itself a retool of Camaro Concept Bumblebee) and Cannon Bumblebee. Watch the legs!

When no parts are shared, it's not a retool, but one can still say they share engineering (read: basic transformation). That was used all the way back in G1 with the Mini-Bots Bumblebee and Cliffjumper, the Jumpstarters and the Battlechargers, among other figures. Even now the concept is used: if a transformation (step) is favorable, re-use it (that goes especially when a design is upsized).

The examples listed in previous posts share transformation. But that alone is not enough to consider them "retools". Using an older figure's transformation or part thereof, does to seem to happen more often as of late I've noticed. One reviewer even called out RiD2015 Legion Bumblebee's transformation being similar to Armada Sparkplug's.

Slashercon wrote:Alot of you guys are acting as if I'm not on to something. Well if Jazz wasn't identical in design to PRID Bumblebee and seemingly didn't share the same transformation scheme, It wouldn't have been as big a deal as I mentioned, But Sideswipe and Bumblebee also share astounding similarities to past PRID/BeastHunter figures and It has been bothering me lately. The closest example of this I can think of is Universal exclusive Movie Evac being a major remold/similar transformation scheme of DOTM Roadbuster. But apparently, I'm always wrong, even when I show of shred of being possibly right

-("Drama"con has spoken)

It was never said that the toys don't share a similar transformation scheme or a similar look. It was only said that calling them retools of oneanother is not correct and saying that the transformation scheme is the SAME is also incorrect. It's just similar. They don't share any molding whatsoever. This is the same deal as AOE Lockdown and DOTM roadbuster. That one was also said a bunch last summer because there were some obvious similarities. There is no objection to the similarities for those and none for these either. But calling them retools doesnt make any sense.

No one mentions Cybertron Hotshot and Combiner Wars Dragstrip as being similar in transformation but they are. And yet somehow nobody would calls those lazy retools of one another. And thats because they were made so far apart from one another. Just like we don't say MP-10 is just a downsizing of MP-01. Is MP-10 a lazy reusing of the MP01 mold? They share a similar transformation scheme though, as much if not more than Jazz and Bumblebee.

The point is transformations may appear similar but that does not make something lazy or a retool. If this Jazz is considered that by anyone, than it would be hypocritical to not think the same way about MP-10.

A great example for this are about 3/4 of the Gobots ever made. The flip-the-legs-pull-the-arms transformation scheme is extremely common. Many share the EXACT same transformation. But they are all different molds. And there's dozens of them.

Guyzz, srysly, Micromasters are all retools of each-other Botshots are too for that matter
I think I see your point Slashercon, but retool is really the wrong word to use in these circumstances. Retooling means something really specific.

erg. I really don't like the look of Drifts minicons in the cartoon. I don't know why but they irritate me. It's irrational...yet, there it is.

Not to sound ignorant (too late?), but I didn't bother reading all of the replies you guys had for me, mainly because all of what you said was knowledge I already knew. This situation just feels far different for me. Nevertheless My main gripe is the figures themselves...I honestly think they're not that good. Aside from Sideswipe here, and maybe Drift and Grimlock, the rest of the warriors (Especially Strongarm) are incredibly weak to me.