The Energon Pub

[DesalationReborn]

Mithraism, a religion predating Christianity and popular in the Roman Empire, seems to have had many similarities to Christianity as we know it today-- followers of it worshiped a resurrecting deity born of a virgin and tended to by shepards, and who had also acended to the heavens, promising to come again, practiced baptism and partook of a sacred meal of bread and wine, called themselves "reborn" in Mithrai, the "Christ" (a Hellenistic term) and "Son of God", and as well worshiped on Sundays. They also discouraged women, had a conplicated hierarchy, had had priests they called 'Fathers', and celebrated his birth on the Winter Solstace, usually December 25.

This now dead religion seems to have a large link to the early formation of the Christian church-- Constantine himself was a believer of Mithra before converting to Christianity. So, while providing data on the subject (hopefully with links) what do you think is the connection between these two faiths?

[Jar Axel]

Out of curiosity what do you think is the relation between Zeus, Aries, Apollo ext. ant the Greeko-Roman versions of Jupiter, Mars, Saturn, ext.?

[DesalationReborn]

Out of curiosity what do you think is the relation between Zeus, Aries, Apollo ext. ant the Greeko-Roman versions of Jupiter, Mars, Saturn, ext.?

I'll be taking 4 years of Latin as of next year:

The Romans before the Greek colonization of Sicily and southern Italy had more simplistic, "spirits" of worship, similar to animists of Africa and the minor "household gods" they would later worship. After Greek influence, they took the Greek god's more anthropromorphic nature and applied in to the god's that they were each similar too, also associating them with the different stories of the deities. Thus, Romans essentially did what the Greeks had done when influenced by gods from Asia Minor-- essentially took the one religion and integrated the one system's beliefs into their own, making, though superficially a religion with the worship of the same gods, one whose base dynamics were changed.

[Jar Axel]

You knew all that yet you had to ask? O well if you still want links http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0MfqO3TvKQ

[Senor Hugo]

Wasn't Christianity big on the whole "lets gank stuff from all these pagan holidays/beliefs and incorporate them into our religon to make it easier for those pagan heathens to start believing in our God" thing?

I see nothing new here.

Of course maybe the founders of Christianity just gave Mithra the Jesus Stone and it evolved. Then took on the Elite 4 using the "Crusade Attack."

[DREWCIFER]

Senor Hugo has it right.

The way christianity spread so easily was the way it "Incorporated" other religious beliefs.

IF you believe in Jesus, then you may be curious to know that his "Birthday" of December 25 is about six months off. The only reason the "Church" did this was so they could more easily "convert" the "Paegan Heathens". Remember, the Catholic Church (which started the widespread of christianity, by the downside of the Roman Empire) is not so much a religious beliefs system (though it's that too), it's primary function is a political machine.

So Politics is the answer. Most religious holidays(christian), were chosen for their dates, solely for the purpose of hijacking another religions spiritual holiday. Think about All Saints Day and Halloween. Time and time again, the church manipulated other religions and tricked them into becoming "Christian".

Now, not to bash all christians, there has been much good that has come from this particular belief system. However,

You must know what to look for in your past to watch for your future. – Olde Drewish Saying

[Shadowman]

Look at guys like Odin and Zeus, wise old men with large white beards, and compare them to the modern interpretation of the Christian God.

God even uses Zeus' lightning bolt to smite the blasphemers.

But I'd be interested to hear some Biblical views on this.

[Retardicon]

But I'd be interested to hear some Biblical views on this.

Good luck on that one! It's like catching a 5 yr old with his hand in the cookie jar.

Here, watch this.

Babylonian Mythology:

Ahem, Nimrod was married to Semiramis who was untouched. When Nimrod died he ascended to join the sun. Nimrod, using the sun's rays, impregnated Semiramis with his own reincarnation. Thus was born Tammuz, son of a virgin as well as the father, the Sun

The Sun is at its weakest (or dies) during the Winter Solstice which takes place on Dec 21. It is 'dead' for 3 days and is born anew on Dec 25.

Also the Goddess of sex and fertility, Ishtar (easter) was celebrated on the first sunday after the first full moon since the spring equinox. These celebrations included the coloring of eggs and sacrificing of rabbits.

That's Easter, Christmas, The Resurrection and The Virgin Birth of The Son of God...

That's from about 5000 BC. Sounds a lot like this Roman-funded religious movement that was started to give the people something to hope in as the roman elite started to deconstruct the worlds knowledge and financial power bases to assert themselves as absolute rulers over the dumb...

Hey "The Simpsons" just came on...

[Shadowman]

But I'd be interested to hear some Biblical views on this.

Good luck on that one! It's like catching a 5 yr old with his hand in the cookie jar.

I meant I'd like to hear some Christians go "Nuh-Uh!" with facts about as valid as someone saying Spider-Man is Batman's cousin.

Christianity: The Knock-Off Religion.

[Senor Hugo]

Christianity: The Knock-Off Religion.

Knock-off, not so much. More so a Hybrid religion. It took several things from other religions, holidays, deities, etc. To make it more appealing for others. Kinda like how car companies make cars now-a-days. "Sure, you can get that tiny little hybrid for $30,000, but our car not only comes with a hybrid engine, gets 50 miles to the gallon, but also if you join today, all your sins will be forgiven and you'll go to a paradise when you die....also, this complimentary air-freshener."

[DREWCIFER]

Hmmm, new car smell!

Christianity as a KO, that's an interesting take(picturing Buddy Christ as a KO, green hair, purple skin). It's really like most religious beliefs, built on the back of those before it. However, this religion, instead of acknowledging it's use of former religions, instead, belittles them and converts by force.

In today's day and age with mass media communication (yeah, from JCSS). We can analyze these things, however, in the past it you didn't convert, you were tortured and made to convert, that or die. i.e. the inquisition. And don't think it's limited to the catholic church, look at protestants and lutherans. All crazy @ss MoFo's.

The truth is there is no perfect religion, since man is driven by ego. What we (as a society) need to do is realize that no one religion will ever cover everyone, so our laws should be made to govern the people, not the people's (select number)beliefs.

But hey, as I said, man is driven by ego, so there will always be someone to twist the words of others to manipulate a few. You just have to smart enough to see it and take it in as what it is.

[Nightracer GT]

I meant I'd like to hear some Christians go "Nuh-Uh!" with facts about as valid as someone saying Spider-Man is Batman's cousin.

It's blasphemy to even suggest that other pagan roots were applied to the Truth of Christ's glory.

The Bible is literally true, because the people who wrote it were guided by God. You know God exists, because the Bible says he does, which was guided by God.

I double dare you to find even a smidgen of fallacy in that airtight logic of logic.


I love it...

[DREWCIFER]

Dark Zarak says

The Bible is literally true, because the people who wrote it were guided by God. You know God exists, because the Bible says he does, which was guided by God.

Hee Hee Hee

I have a friend that uses that same line. I just go man, you are gullible.

[Jar Axel]

Dark Zarak says

The Bible is literally true, because the people who wrote it were guided by God. You know God exists, because the Bible says he does, which was guided by God.

Hee Hee Hee

I have a friend that uses that same line. I just go man, you are gullible.

I know; and they accuse us of useing circular logic

[Shadowman]

Babylonian Mythology:

Ahem, Nimrod was married to Semiramis who was untouched. When Nimrod died he ascended to join the sun. Nimrod, using the sun's rays, impregnated Semiramis with his own reincarnation. Thus was born Tammuz, son of a virgin as well as the father, the Sun

The Sun is at its weakest (or dies) during the Winter Solstice which takes place on Dec 21. It is 'dead' for 3 days and is born anew on Dec 25.

Also the Goddess of sex and fertility, Ishtar (easter) was celebrated on the first sunday after the first full moon since the spring equinox. These celebrations included the coloring of eggs and sacrificing of rabbits.

That's Easter, Christmas, The Resurrection and The Virgin Birth of The Son of God...

That's from about 5000 BC. Sounds a lot like this Roman-funded religious movement that was started to give the people something to hope in as the roman elite started to deconstruct the worlds knowledge and financial power bases to assert themselves as absolute rulers over the dumb...

I told a friend of mine this story. She's a Christian, one of the ones who believe Harry Potter is pure evil and must be burned.

After telling her this, she paused for a moment (To the point that I thought I might've said something seriously wrong), then said "So...there might be more than one saviour?"

Ladies and Gentlemen, I think I accomplished something. I don't think I've told/reminded her of the Inquisition, or that the Crusades attributed to King Authur were actually a series of violent and bloody Holy Wars, and that the Pope was the one who gave the order.

[Nightracer GT]

I don't think I've told/reminded her of the Inquisition, or that the Crusades attributed to King Authur were actually a series of violent and bloody Holy Wars, and that the Pope was the one who gave the order.

The funny part is, that doesn't matter.

How much violence is being done in the world today? So much, and with a variety of reasons.


By all means tell her that stuff, but something else you should tell her that really turned me around (I used to be a die hard creationist and almost certainly would have been offended by Harry Potter) was the story of Galileo.

He discovered things about the solar system that the religion of the time denied. If you want to cure a religious nut, introduce them to science. Not class, and not guys in glasses and white coats, but scientific thinking.

My mom thought I would be a minister one day. Now she blames Marylin Manson and Doom.

I blame rational thought.

[Armorwind]

I think a lot of people here are grossly mistaken. If you ask a few theologians this type of question, you'll get a more educated answer. Look, most rational people will acknowledge the similiarities between these religions. But see the similarities are, at most, superficial. Sure they have the same actiosn and such. But the theological significance is vastly different in each case. No other religion (e.g. Mithraism) uses the same story for the same meaning.

Therefore, just because there are superficial similarities to other religions, or for that matter even if the similarities had more significance, doesn't mean that the religion is proven false. That's a very common mistake I see in all you guys.

Furthermore, just because there are potential motives that fit something does not mean that the motives are true. If my dad were killed, just because it would make sense for me to him for an inheritance isn't enough to convict me of murder.

Further still, you argue against the actions of the past rather than against the truths of the religion, i.e. claiming the Catholic church invalid because of the crusades, incorporating former pagan holidays, etc. See, most informed religious people will acknowledge this. But that doesn't take away from the validity of an argument/position. At this point your just using an ad hominem of sorts rather than attacking the logic/truth behind the religion.

[Dead Metal]

The Christian religon used a loot of items from diferent religons. The devil's apearence for example is based opon the Greek Good of nature named Pan. The Christian word Hell is taken directly from the Keltik version spellt Hel. So you'r never realy shure waht existed before and waht is origanly Christian. Alsow the muslim religon is conected to the Christian one, how you ask? It's like this: First came the Juwish belife, than as an upgrade the Christian and as the ultimate and final upgrade the muslim religon. So you can't say all muslims hate Juwes and Christians, that's just the belive of the NAZI muslimes coled Islamists. Aktuly they have grate respect from other religens and don't want the howly war. Take the turkish for instance, two Christians were nighted and killed in a tukish Biblepress, the police stated that as they came to the krime sean the killers wer hunted down by zivilians. They were almoest killed! That just shows that no matter if you'r Juwish, Christian ore Moslem we all prer to the same god even if we have diverent ideas wat he's like.

[DesalationReborn]

I think a lot of people here are grossly mistaken. If you ask a few theologians this type of question, you'll get a more educated answer. Look, most rational people will acknowledge the similiarities between these religions. But see the similarities are, at most, superficial. Sure they have the same actiosn and such. But the theological significance is vastly different in each case. No other religion (e.g. Mithraism) uses the same story for the same meaning.

What exactly do you mean? I think you need to elaborate. The stories are generally the same, so it's not like the storyline is all too original, and we're talking about thousands of years, so of course a religion won't exactly match one from two millennia ago doctrinally-- it wouldn't even match its past self in totam.

Therefore, just because there are superficial similarities to other religions, or for that matter even if the similarities had more significance, doesn't mean that the religion is proven false. That's a very common mistake I see in all you guys.

Furthermore, just because there are potential motives that fit something does not mean that the motives are true. If my dad were killed, just because it would make sense for me to him for an inheritance isn't enough to convict me of murder.

True, but something doesn't even have to be proven false-- it has to be proven true, and, though a truly undefined negative can never be asserted, providing significantly damning evidence against the probability of it is possible. For most all things, it's basically a case of "if the shoe fits." Not 'absolute proof'-- for nothing is truly such-- but quite disconcerting to the argument for such.

Further still, you argue against the actions of the past rather than against the truths of the religion, i.e. claiming the Catholic church invalid because of the crusades, incorporating former pagan holidays, etc. See, most informed religious people will acknowledge this. But that doesn't take away from the validity of an argument/position. At this point your just using an ad hominem of sorts rather than attacking the logic/truth behind the religion.

In arguing against the idea that a certain faith or belief in a certain deity is the only way to 'moral' behavior, or that all of the religion's dogma is original and commanded by an infallible deity (I was Catholic for 6 or 7 years, by the way), which seems to be a high proposition of many Western religions, recalling the past acts of members of a faith and the source of their dogma and tradition is applicable in the discussion.

[Shadowman]

The Christian religon used a loot of items from diferent religons. The devil's apearence for example is based opon the Greek Good of nature named Pan. The Christian word Hell is taken directly from the Keltik version spellt Hel. So you'r never realy shure waht existed before and waht is origanly Christian. Alsow the muslim religon is conected to the Christian one, how you ask? It's like this: First came the Juwish belife, than as an upgrade the Christian and as the ultimate and final upgrade the muslim religon. So you can't say all muslims hate Juwes and Christians, that's just the belive of the NAZI muslimes coled Islamists. Aktuly they have grate respect from other religens and don't want the howly war. Take the turkish for instance, two Christians were nighted and killed in a tukish Biblepress, the police stated that as they came to the krime sean the killers wer hunted down by zivilians. They were almoest killed! That just shows that no matter if you'r Juwish, Christian ore Moslem we all prer to the same god even if we have diverent ideas wat he's like.

It's Extremists, not Islamists. Islam is the religion.

And Christianity is an Upgrade from Judaism, and is in turn upgraded to Islam? No. The connection is that they were all made by a man named Abraham. (Who, I believe, is probably God)

EDIT: And they aren't Nazis. Get the terminology strait.

[Dead Metal]

The Christian religon used a loot of items from diferent religons. The devil's apearence for example is based opon the Greek Good of nature named Pan. The Christian word Hell is taken directly from the Keltik version spellt Hel. So you'r never realy shure waht existed before and waht is origanly Christian. Alsow the muslim religon is conected to the Christian one, how you ask? It's like this: First came the Juwish belife, than as an upgrade the Christian and as the ultimate and final upgrade the muslim religon. So you can't say all muslims hate Juwes and Christians, that's just the belive of the NAZI muslimes coled Islamists. Aktuly they have grate respect from other religens and don't want the howly war. Take the turkish for instance, two Christians were nighted and killed in a tukish Biblepress, the police stated that as they came to the krime sean the killers wer hunted down by zivilians. They were almoest killed! That just shows that no matter if you'r Juwish, Christian ore Moslem we all prer to the same god even if we have diverent ideas wat he's like.

It's Extremists, not Islamists. Islam is the religion.

And Christianity is an Upgrade from Judaism, and is in turn upgraded to Islam? No. The connection is that they were all made by a man named Abraham. (Who, I believe, is probably God)

EDIT: And they aren't Nazis. Get the terminology strait.

Sorry if you misunderstod and for my mistake of using the wrong word.

That with the upgrads is the way they see it, not the way I see it. For them Jesus is a profit who started to preper the world for they'r religon. As with Islamists, sory I got confused with the words, but with the way they interpret the Koran and ther fashist thgots that makes them to the same kind of people as NAZIS. I know NAZI commes from NSDAP (Nazional Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei), I did not know how to spell Extremists wright, so I chows a word you guys understand.

[DREWCIFER]

It's ok, language can be used in different ways. I got your drift(meaning).

Anyway, enter the western way of thinking about religion.

Summarian to Babylonian to Judaism to Islam to Christianity.

Summarian and Babilonian had very similar beliefs. Read Gilgamesh, Sun god, virgin birth, great flood, blah, blah, blah. (split)

Judaism, takes some of this and builds it's religion.

Islam has the same foundations of Judaism, but they differ with which son of Abraham was cast out. (split)

Christianity, takes all of Judaism, but decides that the mesiah has already come. (split)

[Nightracer GT]

Summarian to Babylonian to Judaism to Islam to Christianity.

Summarian to Babylonian to Judaism to Christianity to Islam.

Fixed. Islam came about some 600 years after the death of Christ.

[Tammuz]

Summarian to Babylonian to Judaism to Islam to Christianity.

doesn't that technically make me the original rebirth deity?

[DesalationReborn]

Summarian to Babylonian to Judaism to Islam to Christianity.

doesn't that technically make me the original rebirth deity?

No-- Egyptian and Hidu/Buddhist bot predate you.