The Energon Pub

[Sabrblade]

I need help with something. See, I know this guy who insists on believing that all Transformers series occur in the same single universe. One reality. One history. One timeline.

He believes that things like the Unicron Trilogy, the movies, and Animated all occur sometime in the future after the G1 cartoon and before the Beast Era point in time (300 years post-G1).

I know well better that this is not the case and that there are a vast numerous universes in TF media, but he thinks otherwise.

I would like to know where one can find proof or confirmations that there exists a multiverse in TF media and not one single universe.

Does anyone know where such statements can be found? Either within any TF fiction itself or from the mouths of any of the creators, any indications would be most helpful.

[adamassc]

I know the spychanger RID Optimus Prime got retconned into the Autobot leader from a universe where everybody's Micromaster/Spychanger size. Shokaract's storyline and the Shattered Glass story are both alternate universes, but those are botcon. Then again, Botcon is official, so....


I dunno. Somebody here's bound to be smarter than I.

[Editor]

The worst thing to your argument is the need by Takara to find a way to make everything part of as small a multiverse as possible. Working Car Robots/RID as happening on earth between G1 Season 2 and Scramble City, or editing Animated into the Bay-verse.

That said the best thing would be to direct him to TFwiki and specifically to the sections on Transtech.

With the dropping of Transtech as the next volume after Beast Machines, It was re-tuned by Fun Pub into being a trans-dimensional hub tracking the all the various universes that have been created over time, and even the ramifications of all the separate time-lines have on each other. Not limited to but mostly seen in the creation of the classics time-line, which after springing off from the end of the Marvel G2 books has overlapped and is directly responsible for the cataclysm destroying the original Go-Bot universe.

[Lorekeeper]

The armada comic books specifically used the multiverse idea. I forget the issue numbers, but it had to do with Optimus' gun/jet minicon.

[Sabrblade]

The worst thing to your argument is the need by Takara to find a way to make everything part of as small a multiverse as possible. Working Car Robots/RID as happening on earth between G1 Season 2 and Scramble City, or editing Animated into the Bay-verse.

Car Robots in its Japanese version actually does kinda fit into G1 where it was placed in (after Scramble City, after the Stargate Battles, before RobotMasters, and before the G1 movie). Due to all its characters having new names, and due to all the G1 cast going missing or deactivated following the Stargate Battles, there's little to contradict Car Robots's place in the G1 timeline.

RiD, however, can NOT fit into G1.

That said the best thing would be to direct him to TFwiki and specifically to the sections on Transtech.

I have used TFWiki.net as a reference beforehand, but I think he just discards it due to it being a Wiki worked on primarily by fans and not as a wholly official source. I need in-fiction or word-of-mouth-by-creators sources.

With the dropping of Transtech as the next volume after Beast Machines, It was re-tuned by Fun Pub into being a trans-dimensional hub tracking the all the various universes that have been created over time, and even the ramifications of all the separate time-lines have on each other. Not limited to but mostly seen in the creation of the classics time-line, which after springing off from the end of the Marvel G2 books has overlapped and is directly responsible for the cataclysm destroying the original Go-Bot universe.

I think he mostly follows the cartoons over the comics. The only comics I think he takes as canon are the Armada (and maybe Energon) Dreamwave comics.

The armada comic books specifically used the multiverse idea. I forget the issue numbers, but it had to do with Optimus' gun/jet minicon.

This could help me. I just need to learn where in these comics it states such.

[Name_Violation]

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Multiverse

even has a nice chart to show how/if things are related

[Jeysie]

I have used TFWiki.net as a reference beforehand, but I think he just discards it due to it being a Wiki worked on primarily by fans and not as a wholly official source. I need in-fiction or word-of-mouth-by-creators sources.

Um. Every single article on the Wiki is taken straight from in-fiction sources; we don't make anything up. It's as close as you can get to the in-fiction and word-of-mouth sources without actually reading them yourself. Like has been said, TransTech in particular explicitly revolves around the idea of a Multiverse, and it's canon.

You could try showing him the free Issue 31 of the TFCC magazine that was made available if he absolutely needs to read something directly; the comic in that issue also explicitly deals with and talks about multiversal happenings.

You could also try the TPB of Balancing Act if you can find it; it also deals with multiversal occurrences.

And there's also Answer Number 3 in this Q & A.

And there's the episode synopsis for "Dispatches" in the Allspark Almanac.

There's also comments like this which both mention the idea of a multiverse and explicitly state that not all TF fiction takes place in the same universe.

[Sabrblade]

The thing is, it seems like his fanon idea of "one single universe" is clouding his judgement of what's canon and what isn't.

I think what I need in particular is proof that G1/the Beast Era, the Unicron Trilogy, the live action movies, and Animated are all separate realities from each other. And it may have to come from either these stories themselves or from their creators, as he seems to ignore such details that come from sources outside of these mediums.

[Jeysie]

I think what I need in particular is proof that G1/the Beast Era, the Unicron Trilogy, the live action movies, and Animated are all separate realities from each other. And it may have to come from either these stories themselves or from their creators, as he seems to ignore such details that come from sources outside of these mediums.

"Wings of Honor" is a G1 universe, so both Pete's comments and issue 31 qualify there (since Pete co-wrote both).

Forest Lee is Hasbro's in-house writer and wrote ROTF Fallen's toy bio, so his comments in that Q & A thread also qualify.

"Balancing Act" takes place in the Unicron Trilogy, so it too qualifies.

The Allspark Almanac takes place in the Animated universe, so... you get the picture.

And as yet another source, doesn't the Cybertron cartoon have Vector Prime and the Unicron Singularity? Vector Prime is explicitly a dimension-hopper, and I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Unicron Singularity was dealing with multiversal stuff, wasn't it?

So... actually, all of the sources I stated other than TransTech still qualify.

[Sabrblade]

How about any cartoon or film sources? Are there any indications of a multiverse existing mentioned in any of the cartoons or films?

[Jeysie]

How about any cartoon or film sources? Are there any indications of a multiverse existing mentioned in any of the cartoons or films?

And as yet another source, doesn't the Cybertron cartoon have Vector Prime and the Unicron Singularity? Vector Prime is explicitly a dimension-hopper, and I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Unicron Singularity was dealing with multiversal stuff, wasn't it?

Outside of that, the problem is that... the original G1 cartoon, comics, and Beast Wars were written before there was enough continuities to even have a multiverse, and the movies, Animated, and IDW have gone in directions that don't deal with needing to worry about mentioning a multiverse. So I think, if memory serves, the Unicron Trilogy was the only cartoon(s) to ever actually deal with the concept in the original fiction.

So if your friend chooses to disregard all official fiction set in a given universe that isn't the original fiction, then I think UT is pretty much it. And if he does willfully reject official fiction because it doesn't suit his tastes, then you might as well give up on him being willfully stupid and obtuse about the matter.

Unless he's willing to accept the Alternity fiction.

[Sabrblade]

How about any cartoon or film sources? Are there any indications of a multiverse existing mentioned in any of the cartoons or films?

And as yet another source, doesn't the Cybertron cartoon have Vector Prime and the Unicron Singularity? Vector Prime is explicitly a dimension-hopper, and I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Unicron Singularity was dealing with multiversal stuff, wasn't it?

I know that both Vector Prime and the Unicron Singularity were in the Cybertron cartoon. However...

• In the cartoon, did Vector Prime ever mention the existence of a multiverse or other universes/realities? I can't recall any times he did so in the show off the top of my head.
• The Unicron Singularity never went by this name in the show. It was only ever referred to as "the black hole". This name and its attachment to the multiverse comes from sources outside of the show itself (even though the show does mention its connection to Unicron, nowhere in any cartoon is Unicron ever stated to be a Multiversal Singularity).

[SlyTF1]

How about the fact that some TF universes take place way in the past while some take place in the present and in the way future. And in Animated Optimus is not leader, when the story takes place 50 years in the future when G1 takes place from the 80s up to 2007 (or 2006) and Optimus is leader there.

[Sabrblade]

How about the fact that some TF universes take place way in the past while some take place in the present and in the way future. And in Animated Optimus is not leader, when the story takes place 50 years in the future when G1 takes place from the 80s up to 2007 (or 2006) and Optimus is leader there.

And that helps support his beliefs instead of refuting them. He puts G1 first (84-06), then the Bay movies (some point later), then Animated (50 years later), then the Unicron Trilogy (years and years later), then the Beast Era (distant future). And also squeezes in some other TF fiction in there as well, how ever way he sees it can fit in.

Though, he does see Animated Optimus and Movie Megatron as different ones from the G1 Prime and Megs. But he also sees Unicron Trilogy Optimus and Megatron as being the same bots as Beast Wars Optimus Primal and Megatron.

[Jeysie]

In the cartoon, did Vector Prime ever mention the existence of a multiverse or other universes/realities? I can't recall any times he did so in the show off the top of my head.

I don't know, honestly, I've never seen Cybertron.

The Unicron Singularity never went by this name in the show. It was only ever referred to as "the black hole". This name and its attachment to the multiverse comes from sources outside of the show itself (even though the show does mention its connection to Unicron, nowhere in any cartoon is Unicron ever stated to be a Multiversal Singularity).

*shrug* Well, like I said, official canon fiction is official canon fiction, whether it took place during the original run or not.

And that helps support his beliefs instead of refuting them. He puts G1 first (84-06), then the Bay movies (some point later), then Animated (50 years later), then the Unicron Trilogy (years and years later), then the Beast Era (distant future).

Well, except that Animated and the movies obviously can't take place in the same universe as G1. In both Animated and the movies the Cybertronians have explicitly never heard of Earth before they arrive, so it doesn't matter if it's later or not. On top of that, the movies take place during the present day in 2010 (or close thereof), which explicitly contradicts G1 Season 3 where obviously completely and utterly different events took place during 2010, not to mention that the G1 2010 was far more advanced technologically than the one in the movies.

On top of that, Animated also can't take place in the same continuity as pretty much anything because the planet Cybertron was explicitly never destroyed past the ability to inhabit it in that continuity, whereas it was in pretty much every other continuity except TransTech. And having it in the same continuity as the Movies also runs into the "Cybertronians have never heard of Earth" problem.

I mean, you don't even really need an official mention of a multiverse to know that you can't have completely contradictory things happening at the same time. Your friend's timeline is completely contradicted by a crapton of things in the actual stories without even getting into multiverses.

[Sabrblade]

Well, except that Animated and the movies obviously can't take place in the same universe as G1. In both Animated and the movies the Cybertronians have explicitly never heard of Earth before they arrive, so it doesn't matter if it's later or not.

He likes to think that, after winning the war in G1, The Autobots decided to isolate Earth from any further Autobot/Decepticon conflicts by having all Transformers erase all memories and records of Earth from their memory banks, thus enabling him to sandwich in the movies and Animated.

On top of that, the movies take place during the present day in 2010 (or close thereof), which explicitly contradicts G1 Season 3 where obviously completely and utterly different events took place during 2010, not to mention that the G1 2010 was far more advanced technologically than the one in the movies.

In the American version, G1 season 3 took place in 2006 and he goes by the American versions of the stories. Meaning, he goes in the direction of The Rebirth instead of Headmasters/Masterforce/Victory/Zone/etc.

On top of that, Animated also can't take place in the same continuity as pretty much anything because the planet Cybertron was explicitly never destroyed past the ability to inhabit it in that continuity, whereas it was in pretty much every other continuity except TransTech. And having it in the same continuity as the Movies also runs into the "Cybertronians have never heard of Earth" problem.

The Rebirth restored Cybertron's energy, removing it from its uninhabitable state.

And again, he supports a "memory wipe of Earth records" idea.

I mean, you don't even really need an official mention of a multiverse to know that you can't have completely contradictory things happening at the same time. Your friend's timeline is completely contradicted by a crapton of things in the actual stories without even getting into multiverses.

I know this. And I have tried to explain such contradictions to him. But these usually either get little-to-no responses, repsonses in more "creative ideas" that he's thought of, or he responds with something along the lines of, "I like to believe what I think, and you can believe what you think. I respect the opinions of others even if they differ from my own. "

[Jeysie]

He likes to think that, after winning the war in G1, The Autobots decided to isolate Earth from any further Autobot/Decepticon conflicts by having all Transformers erase all memories and records of Earth from their memory banks, thus enabling him to sandwich in the movies and Animated.

That doesn't work, though, since again, the live-action movies take place in the same general time period as Season 3 Sunbow episodes.

On top of that, the very first episode of Animated shows explicit records of the Great War, so obviously they haven't erased anything.

On top of that, even if the Autobots erased things, they can't erase human memory, and the time span is short enough that a human would still remember the Cybertronians in-between, and yet they too are ignorant of the Cybertronians when they return, despite the G1 Cybertronians being well-known globally.

In the American version, G1 season 3 took place in 2006 and he goes by the American versions of the stories. Meaning, he goes in the direction of The Rebirth instead of Headmasters/Masterforce/Victory/Zone/etc.

OK, I checked and, according to Hasbro's official timeline, the events of the live-action movies take place in 2007. So, yeah. Again, the movies and G1 Season 3 take place at the exact same time.

Meanwhile, Animated takes place starting in 2050. That's a small enough time frame that, again, a human would still remember the Cybertronians when they returned and became globally known again.

The Rebirth restored Cybertron's energy, removing it from its uninhabitable state.

Again, Cybertron in Animated was never damaged to begin with, though. It has always been habitable.

Plus, Rebirth actually eventually leads into Beast Wars directly. In fact, canonically, Beast Wars takes place around the same year period that Animated does.

he responds with something along the lines of, "I like to believe what I think, and you can believe what you think. I respect the opinions of others even if they differ from my own. "

So he ignores official canon too even when it differs from his own? Hookay.

Do I even want to know how he fits the Marvel universe into all of this? Because that takes place at the exact same time period as the G1 cartoon, and does completely different things.

[Sabrblade]

he responds with something along the lines of, "I like to believe what I think, and you can believe what you think. I respect the opinions of others even if they differ from my own. "

So he ignores official canon too even when it differs from his own? Hookay.

Do I even want to know how he fits the Marvel universe into all of this? Because that takes place at the exact same time period as the G1 cartoon, and does completely different things.

He mostly ignores the Marvel comics. When there are two different stories of a series (in this case, a comic and a cartoon), he tends to favor one and discards the other. This usually has him sticking mostly with the cartoons over the comics, with an exception being him favoring the Armada comics over the cartoon.

[Editor]

Honestly Sabr,

I get the feeling that if your friend is already taking those stands, I doubt that there is anything we can add he won't be able to dispute due to his current beliefs.

My best advise to you at this time is to have your friend sign up on these forums and join the debate directly so people can explain to him (in numbers) why his chosen thoughts on this subject doesn't match with the canon and even commonly held fandom views.

[Sorrow Six Star]

your friend is a moron. slap him with a porkchop sandwich.

[jms98]

WI know this. And I have tried to explain such contradictions to him. But these usually either get little-to-no responses, repsonses in more "creative ideas" that he's thought of, or he responds with something along the lines of, "I like to believe what I think, and you can believe what you think. I respect the opinions of others even if they differ from my own. "

Well, it sounds like he's saying "let's agree to disagree." I think you should let him. I mean, OK, there's plenty of evidence that Transformers is a multiverse, from the FP stories, to the Almanac, to the episode of Headmasters with planet Sandra, to the negative universe that was visited in The Killing Jar, to the Armada Comics (World's Collide,) to the Energon cartoon, to the alternate futures in the Marvel G1 comics ...

But really, if he rejects ALL the evidence and would rather make his own continuity, who's to say that he's wrong? It's not official, but I say let him have his own fanon continuity without raining on his parade. Maybe Takara will publish a timeline that agrees with it at some point.

-JimS

[Sabrblade]

your friend is a moron. slap him with a porkchop sandwich.

He is not! He's just... imaginative.

I know this. And I have tried to explain such contradictions to him. But these usually either get little-to-no responses, repsonses in more "creative ideas" that he's thought of, or he responds with something along the lines of, "I like to believe what I think, and you can believe what you think. I respect the opinions of others even if they differ from my own. "

Well, it sounds like he's saying "let's agree to disagree." I think you should let him. I mean, OK, there's plenty of evidence that Transformers is a multiverse, from the FP stories, to the Almanac, to the episode of Headmasters with planet Sandra, to the negative universe that was visited in The Killing Jar, to the Armada Comics (World's Collide,) to the Energon cartoon, to the alternate futures in the Marvel G1 comics ...

But really, if he rejects ALL the evidence and would rather make his own continuity, who's to say that he's wrong? It's not official, but I say let him have his own fanon continuity without raining on his parade. Maybe Takara will publish a timeline that agrees with it at some point.

-JimS

I guess. But's it sometimes get difficult to talk about continuity and stuff like that with him without him bringing in his own fanon ideas to back his claims.

LOL to the "Takara making a timeline" bit.

[Dead Metal]

So he'll accept the DW Armada Energon comics as fact?

The story line of the Armada comic "Worlds Collide" deals with the Multiverse, there is even a page with computer screens showing the different universes like RID and I think even G1.

[SlyTF1]

How about the fact that some TF universes take place way in the past while some take place in the present and in the way future. And in Animated Optimus is not leader, when the story takes place 50 years in the future when G1 takes place from the 80s up to 2007 (or 2006) and Optimus is leader there.

And that helps support his beliefs instead of refuting them. He puts G1 first (84-06), then the Bay movies (some point later), then Animated (50 years later), then the Unicron Trilogy (years and years later), then the Beast Era (distant future). And also squeezes in some other TF fiction in there as well, how ever way he sees it can fit in.

Though, he does see Animated Optimus and Movie Megatron as different ones from the G1 Prime and Megs. But he also sees Unicron Trilogy Optimus and Megatron as being the same bots as Beast Wars Optimus Primal and Megatron.

Well, I cant help you there. But thats what I enitially thought when I first saw G1. (Yes, I did see Armada before G1 and I saw Beast wars before Armada.) Then I started to watch other TF series and nothing adds up.

[Sabrblade]

Okay, so what I've decided to do is to document as many citations of multiverse proof that I can find.

The following that I have been given to me I can cite easily

You could try showing him the free Issue 31 of the TFCC magazine that was made available if he absolutely needs to read something directly; the comic in that issue also explicitly deals with and talks about multiversal happenings.

And there's also Answer Number 3 in this Q & A.

There's also comments like this which both mention the idea of a multiverse and explicitly state that not all TF fiction takes place in the same universe.

But, these ones below aren't so specific and will need direct citations (i.e. - quotes, who's saying them, what cartoon episode/comic issue, what series, what comic page number its on, etc).

I mean, OK, there's plenty of evidence that Transformers is a multiverse, from the FP stories, to the Almanac, to the episode of Headmasters with planet Sandra, to the negative universe that was visited in The Killing Jar, to the Armada Comics (World's Collide,) to the Energon cartoon, to the alternate futures in the Marvel G1 comics...

So he'll accept the DW Armada Energon comics as fact?

The story line of the Armada comic "Worlds Collide" deals with the Multiverse, there is even a page with computer screens showing the different universes like RID and I think even G1.

I can get the ones from the cartoon sources with no problem. But the comic sources I can't get by myself because I don't own much of any TF comics at all. So, I'll need additional help with citing those sources.


Oh, there's just one more thing I forgot to comment on...

Meanwhile, Animated takes place starting in 2050. That's a small enough time frame that, again, a human would still remember the Cybertronians when they returned and became globally known again.

And where was it ever stated that animated occurs in 2050? Official sources say it takes place in the 22nd Century (which would be between 2100 and 2200).