The Energon Pub

[Dagon]

Hey everyone,

I had this thought the other day and I guess I'm just looking to see if anyone else feels or thinks in a similar fashion.
As a Transformers fan, and a member of a website devoted to Transformers fandom, do you ever wonder why you should even bother being a fan of Transformers? It seems like each time one of the movies is brought up, or new toys are released or whathaveyou, some people like, and other don't like, the new product, or the existant product. Discussion ensues, and basically if or when enough people say they dislike something, the responses start to be along the lines of people not doing it to cater to us, the fans. For examples:

If you don't like the Bay movies, or didn't like them because they weren't fan-y enough, one typical response is that it doesn't matter if you don't like it, Hollywood/Bay/Hasbro/whoever didn't make it for the fans, they made it for the general public who isn't as Transformer-lore savy as 'we' fans are. So, the movies are made to appeal to everyone, and not necessarily to us as fans.

If you don't like some toy, or don't like the character choice or don't like a cartoon, one typical response is that it doesn't matter, because Hasbro doesn't make toys for you, and then people start quoting numbers, like fans only account for 5% of the sales of toys. Then we get thrid party products and a typical response is that Hasbro should be making these because the fans want them. But everyone's statistic says that Hasbro doesn't care about what you want as a fan, they only care about what kids want becuase kids buy toys, apparently to the tune of 95%. The same with cartoons. "Oh cartoons aren't for you, they're for kids." Yeah, ok, but some of us on Seibertron aren't kids, and we watch plenty of cartoons.

I know, I know Hasbro makes things for children. I get it. I'm not slagging Hasbro so much as I'm wondering if anyone else ever wonders what the point is of being a fan since the 'official' answer to an unhappy fan is that no one cares about your opinion, because all of this is intended for kids.
Yeah yeah yeah, of course Transformers was a dead property before the live action movies came out. That's why from 1992 until 2007 no one had ever heard of the brand. And that's also why when a live action movie was made, it was based on G1 characters, and not those from other offshoots that could be seen as cartoon reboots like Armada, or RiD. All the DVD extra interviews in the world point to the fans as being a big reason why the live action movies were made, none of them ever say "You know, we had this dead property that no one cared about so we thought we'd sink millions into a gamble to try and revive it, and hey, maybe one or two thousand kids would like it." No, people say "yeah, there were fans. Fans were a big part of the live action movies."Everything perpetuates itself by gaining new followers, I know, but interest has to be generated from somewhere. If people just threw money at existing yet forgotten franchises in the hopes of revitalizing them, then where the hell is the Jem movie, and/or the last 20 years of Jem merchandise and continuation? Transformers never went away or died just because there wasn't a big budget movie until 2007, and for evidence I offer everything from Beast Wars up to Cybertron, and then Animated for coming between the live movies.

I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed that whenever people say that the fan opinion doesn't matter, it always seems to be the other fans saying that, and it's always in response to fans being displeased, like "It doesn't matter what you think, becuase Hasbro/Bay/Hollywood/whoever doesn't do it for you and they don't care."

[Tristar]

makes you wonder if we like shooting our wounded. You know how the say the squeeky wheel gets the oil, well like the good ole cons we are we blow the squeeky wheel away by using the Hasbro doesn't care card

[Torino_Prime]

Without a Bay movie we would probably not be getting a new animated cartoon with Peter Cullen and Frank Welker... I hope it's good, but it will be for kids... face it a lot of us just don't have the suspension of disbelief that we used to have... that's natural. Enjoy the products or move on... Don't take it too seriously... I don't care for anything after the first 2 Seasons of Gen One. Except the Gen One comics and some of the custom toys.... The first live action movie I supported, but it had gaping plot holes... the second movie was written so poorly it was unforgivable... I am still going to see the third movie... I watched all of Transformers Animated... it was a fresh take, but if I didn't have a kid I would not have followed it... (that being said I like the episodic nature of the series... You had to see them in order.. Gen One is all stand alone stories.) I guess what I am saying is some people should probably just relax and enjoy what you can, don't knock someone for their varied tastes and enjoy what you can...Life is too short to take fictional robots with a unique ability too seriously... because all of it is too fantastic... which is why we like it so much...

BTW Gen One or None j/k
no seriously... Gen One...undisputed!

[JetOptimus23]

Why bother... BECAUSE I CAN!!!!!

[Galvatron X]

EDIT: I didn't fully grasp your post until now!

It really doesn't bother me WHO their target audience is or who they're doing it for. My favorite toy as a kid is still going strong - stronger than ever! - and I'm happy.

They're gonna make figures I don't like whether I complain or not. Do I want them to listen to the fans? Sure! Any good business listens to it's customers complaints/concerns. Honestly, though, I think we're the "vocal minority".

[adamassc]

Dead End is my homeboy, I always wonder Why bother.

The main reason is because some part of the TF universe grabbed us once. Maybe it let go and we're looking to be grabbed again, maybe it held on like a starving bulldog.

Either way, we stay because we want that feeling again, and we whine and whimper when we don't get what we want.

Me, I want RiD to be loved, and the Stunticons to get awesome new toys.


Plus, a non-creepy statue or figure of T-ai would be nice.

[G1 Smoketreader]

Dead End is my homeboy, I always wonder Why bother.

The main reason is because some part of the TF universe grabbed us once. Maybe it let go and we're looking to be grabbed again, maybe it held on like a starving bulldog.

Either way, we stay because we want that feeling again, and we whine and whimper when we don't get what we want.

Me, I want RiD to be loved, and the Stunticons to get awesome new toys.

I'd say it wouldn't be healthy or normal to *never* wonder "Why bother?", but also, why give up immediately?
All the 80's cartoons had a different drift to what came before or later.They played a part in the education of the 80's children. The 90's shows became a different vibe for the 90's cycle and so on into the new Millennium.Gormiti replaced YuGiOh replaced DragonballZ replaced Power Rangers replaced Ninja Turdles replaced Transformers Replaced HeMan Replaced JabberJaws and Scooby Doo. Pre- schooling education, I believe, gets altered alongside this development as well.
Ignore the cartoons and consider that you're a child in the 80's and a fave uncle brings you two new transforming toys which are way chunkier and more involved than machine men/Go-bots. You know nothing about these toys and examine the box for ideas. A 'Tech Spec" on the back of one says "Function: Diversionary Tactician" and on the other "There is Beauty in everything except war". Never before thought of concepts (for a -LITTLE- kid), never before accessed game-inventing topics: Immediate incentive to think and CONSIDER before the package is even opened: Educational toys which are both Aesthetically pleasing and mechanically informative.
Find out then from friends that there is a Saturday Morning Cartoon. Watch it to find out more. Discover their homeworld is destroyed by Holocaust,that they are refugees. From now on the toys not only need to prevent collateral damage from their war to their new planet but also use their own particular role to contribute to their overall team. This is sociology different to the HeMan "Fight the evil castle down the road together" or G.I. Joe "Totally equipped to fight anywhere, anytime together" thing (respectfully).Grow up and create children of your own:Why not want them to come to understand HOW you learnt what you learnt?
I feel that whenever a new Transformers line,saga or interpretation comes out, it *is* worthwhile to see what it's arrival means to any and all previous installments. Although change and growth are highly important, and it's good for the ying to be surprised & challenged by new things,it *is* still highly likely that old fans can and will have a valid contribution to the progress of events. Being listened to, being considered by someone in power, is not the same as being obeyed.
I believe that G1 to Beast Wars period fans in particular, especially those with children of their own now, are not always yelling about what they want for themselves but also what they want for the Transformers universe as an identity in and of itself.
Or, alternatively: Maybe it's unavoidable to have been joint-raised by 80's Saturday Morning Cartoons and not think like a Meddling DoGooder!!

[Dagon]

It really doesn't bother me WHO their target audience is or who they're doing it for. My favorite toy as a kid is still going strong - stronger than ever! - and I'm happy.

They're gonna make figures I don't like whether I complain or not. Do I want them to listen to the fans? Sure! Any good business listens to it's customers complaints/concerns. Honestly, though, I think we're the "vocal minority".

I agree with your post completely, and most of the others here as well, and I have to say I'm surprised. I figured I'd get a lot of responses stating the 'obvious', like how I should give up my fan status and everything. That 'obvious' response speaks directly to what I'm questioning though.
I agree with you EiMD. I'm personally not interested in who any part of the Transformer merchandising empire targets with its product. I like the brand and the stories, so I support it/them.
But what I was trying to get at, and I know I wasn't doing a real good job of it, was like, for lack of a better term, the Seibertron.com response to dissention, which is basically that no one at Hasbro or in Hollyood cares what we fans want, and the toys and films are made for kids and casuals. That's all well and good, but if a fanbase starts to espouse the notion that the values of the same fanbase don't matter, I think that's troubling.
Look, we all know that Hasbro and Hollywood and Michael Bay and everyone else is concerned with making money as a result of their efforts. I know that if they made a Transformers movie based only on what I personally as a fan wanted that it would appeal 100% to me, but that appeal would diminish the further away the audience was from what I personally wanted. I'm not looking for someone to explain marketing or anything like that to me, because I understand all of that.
My initial wonder was over the idea that we, 'we' as Seibertron members, or perhaps as a larger fandom as a whole, we counter dislike or indifference with a self-defeatist approach which says--and while not verbatum, you can find this exact reply all over the place on in this very forum--no one cares what we as fans think, and that we account for only 5% of someones' bottom line, so we should be just thrilled with whatever we get or we should exit the fandom. That's what I have issue with.
I know we have Internationals on the board, but I live in the US. Every so often I get a chance to vote whether or not my elected officals are performing sufficiently to my standards, and then I get a chance to participate in their re/election. (Not debating the system, I'm stating it in it's 'theoretical' if that how you need it to be written) The Movie forum got up in arms a few months back because someone made a joke about deporting Bay for his TF movie work. Really, people took that seriously, and didn't recognize it as a joke? Really? Yes, they did, and posts followed about how stupid someone was for even joking about that. But no one says "Leave the fandom because I don't like ROTF? Or I don't like Drift? Thats a stupid idea." And it is. It's a vastly stupider idea than joking that someone should be deported because of a movie. If you didn't vote for Obama, did you pack up your things and your family and leave the States because you disagreed with a decision? Highly unlikely.
I know that Hasbro doesn;t specifically listen to me. I know Bay doesn't care if I didn't like ROTF. I know these things. But when a fandom starts to eat each other like this, like "IF you don't like . . . maybe you should leave the fandom...." I have to wonder. Then people say "Don't take toys too/so seriously" and that totally misses the point as well. Well, if you're adopting an all or nothing kind of stance, I don't think it's me who's taking things too seriously.
I know a lot of times my examples make perfect sense to me, even though they're garbled messes to everyone else, but this one even I think is simpler. If you like a sports team, do you have to like every single player on it in order to like the team? If you don't like the Yankees thrid baseman,should you no longer consider yourself a Yankees fan? Or is it more sensible to give up Yankees fandom alltogether because of on thing you don't like, and have that be an acceptible doctrine amongst all Yankees fans? IF I craved blind acceptance, I'd be political or join a cult or a religion or something, I doubt I'd spend my time playing with action figures.

[G1 Smoketreader]

if a fanbase starts to espouse the notion that the values of the same fanbase don't matter, I think that's troubling.



You are absolutely right.

I was going to say:
I believe you will find that the fans who are most bothered to see this happening in the fanbase are also the ones most willing to confront it, but also most willing to keep the peace. There are many more of these people than...well, meets the eye,really.


Instead, I will say:
The real fans will never leave and will never kick out other fans, because it's not what Optimus would have wanted!

And something else that I realised:
Michael Bay walked into this without being a TF fan, and although he may have never listened to us, he is a TF fan now.One day, in the very near future, Transformers will be made without anybody listening to him. I am confident he will watch helplessly,as we have at times, yell "what the hell have you done!" pointlessy, as we have at times, and suffer but he will not walk away from continuing to be a fan.
(Doubt I can say the same for hasbro design team,tho...maybe they really don't care).

[Torino_Prime]

The rumor is the writing on TF 3 will be under much more scrutiny this time due to the lackluster performance of RotF. That is the power of fandom. Remember how Peter Cullen got the job, fandom said only Peter Cullen can be Prime. I know we lost the Welker War, but fandom has influence. Maybe we should rejoice for that. Lots of TF stuff out there, hopefully something for everyone.

[Zombie Starscream]

"Do I ever ponder "Why Bother?"

Nope.
I can tell you this part, as this "Tf Toys are For Kids" has been used as a one-size-fits-all sledgehammer for far too long.

Because ultimately to Hasbro, I don't think it's all about the kids, but about profits.
Hasbro makes toys for the grownup Transfans as well as kids, because folks will buy them.

For example, whatever company makes Barny or Elmo dolls won't make an adult version. Why? Is it because they are only interested in the kids? No. Because the toys would never sell. No adult would want them. But if there was actually adults willing to buy them, they wouldn't care if these are supposed to be "kids' toys." They'd do it in a heartbeat.

So I neever think "Why bother." Mostly I think, "When is Hasbro going to come out with the next cool figure?"

Know what I'm sayin'?

[Stormer]

I stopped keeping up with Transformers at the end of the Generation 2 series. I never had very many toys, but I've kept the ones I've had all these years. I've never seen Beast Wars, or Beast Machines or Animated - or some of the other ones mentioned here that I've never even heard of. What reminded me of that long lost love, was the live action movies. I never stopped being a fan, however, life just happened and I forgot some things that gave me joy in the past. I guess I don't ever say "why bother", because no matter what I like or not like, there are those who are my exact opposites - and that's fine. Plus, different points of view are always valuable, because it makes being a fan fun and interesting, even if I don't like what is being said. I would never tell someone they're not a real fan, or they should stop being a fan simply on a point of view that's unpopular. I'm not as deep as some - some fans can really read into something that I'm completely oblivious to - which expands my fan experience. I'm not very good at arguing - so I don't do that unless I really have something to say, or have an opinion on something being discussed. It is what it is - this debate is no different. Everyone has a valid point of view - some say "why bother?" while others say "why not bother?"

[Catalyst Prime]

I've asked why bother about being on fansites, but never about being a fan.

Mostly I get on fansites to get news, see whats coming out, and generally to find general TF information and ideas for a series of stopmotion cartoons I plan on doing.

I also generally like hearing what others think about characters, toys, and...stuff. Though I also sometimes find myself wondering why I care what others think, especially when their views don't click with mine, but I try to respect others opinions non-the-less.

As for the "Made for kids, not the fans" argument. I understand completely why has/tak do what they do... though sometimes I truly don't understand their choice of characters or size classes/scale. For example their choice to make Universe Treadbolt, a reinvention of a little known Micromaster into a voyager class, instead of someone like Wheeljack or Shockwave, which fans have been asking for for years?

Of course I can find many pro's and cons from a profit/buisness stand point... dosn't mean I approve of the idea though.

[Convotron]

I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed that whenever people say that the fan opinion doesn't matter, it always seems to be the other fans saying that, and it's always in response to fans being displeased, like "It doesn't matter what you think, becuase Hasbro/Bay/Hollywood/whoever doesn't do it for you and they don't care."

I'm not sure if I understand this thread's intent. Dagon, if you could clarify, you seem to go between saying either Hasbro doesn't care about fans or that it's just fellow fans that are making that claim. So...what exactly is the problem? Are you saying that it's Hasbro that doesn't care about the fans or are you saying it's simply a fan claim that Hasbro doesn't care about the fans?

I mean, if it's the way that some fans give a blanket response of "Hasbro does it for the kids, not for the fans.", why should any other fan care? It's not fact and it's woefully oversimplifying the situation. If it's the flack fellow fans give you or others who have voiced displeasure at something in the TF franchise, who cares? That shouldn't make anyone wonder why they should bother being a TF fan.

Now looking at the whole "Hasbro doesn't care about the fan" claim. Let's look at it closely. If Hasbro didn't care about the fans, why the heck would they create toys that are so fan oriented? Look at the Classics/Universe/Generations toylines that are filled with homages to past TF incarnations, especially G1. Look at how the movie line contains things like Lockdown and now Lugnut, which are only explainable to me as Hasbro giving a wink and nod to TFA fans. There's no other reason to put TFA characters in the RotF toy line. Look at how RotF Bludgeon is a huge fan aimed product. The toy design screams "Wasn't G1 Bludgeon awesome? He deserves an updated toy!". There are other examples as well but the point I'm trying to make is this:

If Hasbro didn't care about fans, why would they regularly reach out to the fan community through these products that only fans could appreciate?

The average pre-teenaged kid that Hasbro normally markets their products to wouldn't see a significant difference between a G1 homage toy and any other modern TF toy. There's no cultivated nostalgia factor connected to such homage designs for that kid. Hasbro adds more uncertainty to their success at sales when they introduce homage heavy toys into their current TF toylines.

Is it really a case of Hasbro not caring about the fans when a fan is displeased by something? I don't think so. I think that on the flip side of the argument of Hasbro not caring is the fact that fans are often whiny and bitchy people who want it all and when they don't get what they personally think is perfection in a toy/cartoon/comic/movie/whatever, they go off on the route of saying Hasbro doesn't care or that 3rd party companies get it right and do things so much better than Hasbro when it's only Fansproject that consistently make great 3rd party products!

Let me put it this way:

Many Transformers fans are selfish people who only care about their own satisfaction. They're not true fans of Transformers because they don't care about what's good for the franchise with respect to the products and they don't care about the business aspect of the franchise, which keeps Transformers around for us to enjoy. So-called Transformers fans throw up the "Hasbro doesn't care about us" line when they really mean "Hasbro doesn't care about me.

Now as much as I sound like a Hasbro fanboy in this post so far, I also have criticisms of both Hasbro and TakaraTomy but I think credit is due for how Hasbro has shown time and again, especially during the past several years, that they do indeed care about the fans.

[G1 Smoketreader]

Let's just do the opposite and encourage people to stay.

[Rodimus the Prime]

Hasbro definitely does care. The Classics line is all the proof I'd ever need that they do really care about fans, especially G1-era fans.

[Chupacabra Convoy]

To be honest, I never really thought that Hasbro doesn't care. It is a business, and I was aware of that from an early age, so I guess I lowered my standard or something. I mean they do what they have to do to make a buck... and there's nothing wrong with that. Granted it's far from perfect, but when I took my economics class, the word money never appeared in the class definition, instead the definition of Economics is: It is the allocation, distribution, and management of resources. And everything is finite for good reason. So that been said Hasbro has to make the best long term decision, and, to those that instantly think of bad counter examples I say this: You have a product that you know that you're gonna lose money if you make it, and it cost 4 million to develop and you could only make 3 million off of it. What do you do? Do you cancel production and loose the 4 million? Or make it and only loose a million?

Answer: You make it, and use the 3 million to make a better product the next time around. It's that simple.
No human being can make perfect decisions that would satisfy everybody... at that point we call that person god, and prey that we're not on their **** list.

So because Transformers fan purchases are largely based on personal tastes, the task of making the perfect toy is just out right impossible. So before the movie, Hasbro only had so much money to throw around when making anything Transformers related, but it's not like they didn't try to throw us a bone. I mean how many G1 homages were there in Unicron Trilogy? I couldn't even begin to count. While I really don't like the movies, it did help out the Franchise eclipse the original G1 run in damn near every way possible. I mean i hate the movies for being bad stores (to me), but I love them because the year after the movies, Hasbro get wild and ambitious with ideas. Animated got a whole extra year to be put together because Hasbro didn't want to compete with itself. The end result was a cartoon way better than than the Unicron Trilogy. As for us older farts like me, first we got the classics, and then the universe, and now Generations. Dude, get a sense of Satisfaction, j/k. (couldn't resist) Heck, even the movie toy lines have even more G1 homages hidden amongst them (Bludgeon, Lockdown, Seaspray, Deadend and Wildrider).

I know we can't have it all, but Hasbro can only make so much in year. How do I know that they really love us for letting them keep their jobs as toys makers? Remember all those those third party toys? If this was another sort of industry, hell company, they would've sued them all for making products that infringe on their copyright. Case in point: Xerox used to practically have a monopoly on copying. They were so good at it, that people used the word "xerox" to mean copying documents in everyday language. Then one day, another company used the word xerox in a ad. Xerox tried to sue that company for violating their copyright. The case was thrown out because at that point the word xerox had already been a part of common language for decades. So here we are today, third parties making toys that clearly resemble their copyrighted material, and they're not even lifting a damn finger. The only reason I can think of that justifies this lack of action is: us. They know we want these products, and they're letting us have it, despite the massive long term risk that they're facing to one their core money makers.

They love us, return it by having a little faith now and then. Don't try to be a saint, but check yourself before you wreck yourself.