The Energon Pub

Fascinating discussion guys, you seem to have covered pretty much everything and did so without erupting in a flame war (something this topic tends to generate) .

I was considering something similar not long ago myself when purchasing some TF's on ebay. If I purchase an official Has/Tak product on ebay from an individual (not a store that sells on ebay, like ToyArena does), then hasn't Hasbro/Takara already received all of the profit that they will gain from the toy already when whoever the original purchaser of the figure was bought it at retail (be it the seller if they were the original purchaser, or whoever they may have bought it from), so when I pay an insane price for it, just because it's no longer available at retail, Has/Tak actually sees no profits from the money that I paid (I'm assuming the seller isn't writing any checks to Has/Tak as a "Thank you for making this figure so rare/currently unavailable so I could charge a lot for it.") so in such a scenario, what would be the difference between buying a KO/third party toy or a legit Has/Tak toy?

I can understand the difference from a collector's point of view if they're collecting for value (a real Has/Tak toy is worth more than a KO because it's the real deal etc.), but for a collector like myself, who doesn't keep anything MISB, displays my figures and plays with them, what's the difference?

Is there any difference at all? Like I said, I understand a G1 collector getting upset that they paid an insane price for a KO that a seller was passing off as the real deal (something I don't like either because that's fraud), but from my point of view, I just want the figure represented in my collection, who manufactured it is irrelevant most of the time, especially if I missed the boat the first time around when Has/Tak actually released it (I bought a KO Henkei Ramjet for this very reason, and almost got a KO Henkei Rodimus until I found out Takara was doing a reissue).

xyl360 wrote:Fascinating discussion guys, you seem to have covered pretty much everything and did so without erupting in a flame war (something this topic tends to generate) .

I was considering something similar not long ago myself when purchasing some TF's on ebay. If I purchase an official Has/Tak product on ebay from an individual (not a store that sells on ebay, like ToyArena does), then hasn't Hasbro/Takara already received all of the profit that they will gain from the toy already when whoever the original purchaser of the figure was bought it at retail (be it the seller if they were the original purchaser, or whoever they may have bought it from), so when I pay an insane price for it, just because it's no longer available at retail, Has/Tak actually sees no profits from the money that I paid (I'm assuming the seller isn't writing any checks to Has/Tak as a "Thank you for making this figure so rare/currently unavailable so I could charge a lot for it.") so in such a scenario, what would be the difference between buying a KO/third party toy or a legit Has/Tak toy?

I can understand the difference from a collector's point of view if they're collecting for value (a real Has/Tak toy is worth more than a KO because it's the real deal etc.), but for a collector like myself, who doesn't keep anything MISB, displays my figures and plays with them, what's the difference?

The difference is, regardless of whether or not it is MISB, its still authentic. If you have to spend a lot of money to get the figure you want, would you rather come away from the situation with something authentic or not authentic. Which raises another good similarity between KOs and 3rd parties. Neither has any long term value. All of those collectors that think that 3rd parties are so much better than KOs should keep one thing in mind. 3rd parties are not going to go up in value. Essentially, they are being bought at their peak value. There price may go up initially after their availability disappears. But a few years down the road they won't be worth anything. 10 years down the road, no one will be desperately be seeking a MISB Warbot Defender to add their collection. Because it is not part of a collection. Its a good quality imitation of a Hasbro toy. (ahem, sounds like knock-off) And thats all it will ever be. If you come across a MISB G1 Optimus Prime, your heart almost assuredly skips a beat. 20 years from now, a MISB Fans Project Crossfire will not be giving anybody any heart attacks.

xyl360 wrote:Is there any difference at all? Like I said, I understand a G1 collector getting upset that they paid an insane price for a KO that a seller was passing off as the real deal (something I don't like either because that's fraud), but from my point of view, I just want the figure represented in my collection, who manufactured it is irrelevant most of the time, especially if I missed the boat the first time around when Has/Tak actually released it (I bought a KO Henkei Ramjet for this very reason, and almost got a KO Henkei Rodimus until I found out Takara was doing a reissue).

I, personally don't think there is anything wrong with the way you collect. People collect for their own reasons. But whenit comes time to pass on or sell the collection, now you have to do the right thing with the KOs and seperate them.

As a collector, I view the authetic Has/Tak versions as collectibles. KOs and 3rd parties to me are just toys. Collectibles get saved for the long term. You may open them, you may display them but your intent is to keep them for a while to enjoy. Toys are meant for playing and abusing. I do not foresee KOs and 3rd parties having any longterm value. 10 years down the road nobody will care about them. This should relegate them down to just toys that you could play with and abuse however you wish while your collections stays in tact. However, KOs and 3rd parties are just too expensive to play with. But they aren't authentic and have no long term value to be a real part of a collection.

I view KOs and 3rd parties as bad investments. If you had onto them for too long you'll be lucky to get your money back. I appreciate what they both bring to the table. I just believe that they should be more appropriately priced so that you can enjoy them now because down the road they won't be worth anything.

All of those collectors that think that 3rd parties are so much better than KOs should keep one thing in mind. 3rd parties are not going to go up in value.

Right now there's no way to prove this statement. And I tend to disagree. In the future people who still collect classics (and there's no doubt in my mind that there will be Neo-G1 collectors in the future) will want something like City Commander to fill the void that Hasbro didn't fill. Even if they are not proper transformers, I tend to think the desire for these products will continue to exist and, therefore, they will increase in value. Less so for stuff like the Kup head and moreso for the famous ones like CC or Warbot.

At this point the market is still too new to really argue the point either way.

joesaysso wrote:The difference is, regardless of whether or not it is MISB, its still authentic. If you have to spend a lot of money to get the figure you want, would you rather come away from the situation with something authentic or not authentic. Which raises another good similarity between KOs and 3rd parties. Neither has any long term value. All of those collectors that think that 3rd parties are so much better than KOs should keep one thing in mind. 3rd parties are not going to go up in value. Essentially, they are being bought at their peak value. There price may go up initially after their availability disappears. But a few years down the road they won't be worth anything. 10 years down the road, no one will be desperately be seeking a MISB Warbot Defender to add their collection. Because it is not part of a collection. Its a good quality imitation of a Hasbro toy. (ahem, sounds like knock-off) And thats all it will ever be. If you come across a MISB G1 Optimus Prime, your heart almost assuredly skips a beat. 20 years from now, a MISB Fans Project Crossfire will not be giving anybody any heart attacks.

This is simply not true. The only way the good 3rd Party figs sell for less down the road is if HasTak (or maybe another 3rd Party) puts out a better version. Until then, City Commander is still going to cost a lot more than what it retailed for.

I'm going to have to start using bold words. It just seems fun.

I'm sorry, why is a third party product less legit than a Hasbro or Takara product?

Just because they are small companies, making less products doesn't mean they are less legit than Hasbro/Takara/Tomy.

Hasbro/Takara do not I repeat do not own in any way the transforming robot toy market.

Anybody can build a transforming robot if they wanted to and still be legit. Hell if they couldn't then Bandai, and Yamato, and all those other transforming robot makers would be ripping off Hasbro which they are not.

Fans Project may take inspiration for somethings in Hasbro designs, but as even Hasbro knows inspiration on something is completely legitimate.

I'm pretty sure they didn;t pay Bugatti any rights for this toy:


Or did they pay any rights to Aston Martin for:


Or even Chrysler for this:



Just because its 3rd party does not mean its any less legit or valuable than Hasbro's own products.

Seriously without third party competitors in any commercial niche there would be no loyal competition in any market.

Just like Shell, BP and Exon can all make Gasoline, LG, Apple, Samsung etc.. can all make cellphones that operate similarly and look very similar too; Hasbro, Bandai, Fansproject etc;.. can all make Transforming robots legally and legit..ly.


Its when you knockoff the complete design, engineering and look of a figure such as iGear's Faith Leader and MP Seekers, the KOs of classic seakers etc... thats when you loose any legitness.




Third party companies are perfectly legit.

Overcracker wrote:I'm sorry, why is a third party product less legit than a Hasbro or Takara product?

Just because they are small companies, making less products doesn't mean they are less legit than Hasbro/Takara/Tomy.

Hasbro/Takara do not I repeat do not own in any way the transforming robot toy market.

Anybody can build a transforming robot if they wanted to and still be legit. Hell if they couldn't then Bandai, and Yamato, and all those other transforming robot makers would be ripping off Hasbro which they are not.

Fans Project may take inspiration for somethings in Hasbro designs, but as even Hasbro knows inspiration on something is completely legitimate.

I'm pretty sure they didn;t pay Bugatti any rights for this toy:


Or did they pay any rights to Aston Martin for:


Or even Chrysler for this:



Just because its 3rd party does not mean its any less legit or valuable than Hasbro's own products.

Seriously without third party competitors in any commercial niche there would be no loyal competition in any market.

Just like Shell, BP and Exon can all make Gasoline, LG, Apple, Samsung etc.. can all make cellphones that operate similarly and look very similar too; Hasbro, Bandai, Fansproject etc;.. can all make Transforming robots legally and legit..ly.


Its when you knockoff the complete design, engineering and look of a figure such as iGear's Faith Leader and MP Seekers, the KOs of classic seakers etc... thats when you loose any legitness.




Third party companies are perfectly legit.

You forgot this:


Pretty sure Hasbro didn't pay Bandai any licence to make a Valkyre homage.

And even this

Or Toho to make Zilla homage.

That's why 3rd party companies can get away with it, because as long as they don't produce exact replicas of existing designs, they can get away with the "inspired by and fair use" defence.

joesaysso wrote:
The difference is, regardless of whether or not it is MISB, its still authentic. If you have to spend a lot of money to get the figure you want, would you rather come away from the situation with something authentic or not authentic. Which raises another good similarity between KOs and 3rd parties. Neither has any long term value. All of those collectors that think that 3rd parties are so much better than KOs should keep one thing in mind. 3rd parties are not going to go up in value. Essentially, they are being bought at their peak value. There price may go up initially after their availability disappears. But a few years down the road they won't be worth anything. 10 years down the road, no one will be desperately be seeking a MISB Warbot Defender to add their collection. Because it is not part of a collection. Its a good quality imitation of a Hasbro toy. (ahem, sounds like knock-off) And thats all it will ever be. If you come across a MISB G1 Optimus Prime, your heart almost assuredly skips a beat. 20 years from now, a MISB Fans Project Crossfire will not be giving anybody any heart attacks.

Your point is well illustrated, however there is a crucial flaw. Transformers are not a viable investment (with rare exception), so it seems rather moot to argue that 3rd party toys are more or less valuable than official Hasbro product.

joesaysso wrote:I view KOs and 3rd parties as bad investments. If you had onto them for too long you'll be lucky to get your money back. I appreciate what they both bring to the table. I just believe that they should be more appropriately priced so that you can enjoy them now because down the road they won't be worth anything.

KOs will always be KOs, but I would think that 3rd party items would be more of an investment against hasbro toys, because they are produced in more limited quantities. FansProjects Cliffjumper kit fetches quite a pretty penny, as well as pretty much every item with limited release and no reissues. it does remain to be seen if this pattern will continue in the future, but for now you can reliably scalp a 3rd party item in the short term.

the only Hasbro items in recent memory that have any kind of inflated value are the latest RTS figures, with a limited release. they arent collectibles anymore, its just product.

Overcracker wrote:I'm sorry, why is a third party product less legit than a Hasbro or Takara product?

by definition, they are Transformers not officially licensed by Hasbro. Its a technicality, and one that I ignore, but its still there.

Astronopolis wrote:

Overcracker wrote:I'm sorry, why is a third party product less legit than a Hasbro or Takara product?

by definition, they are Transformers not officially licensed by Hasbro. Its a technicality, and one that I ignore, but its still there.

I'm sorry did you read the rest of my post?

They aren't licensed because they don;t have to be. They aren't transformers, they are transforming robots in the same vein Bandai's Super Sentai are transforming robots, and Yamato's VF's are transforming robots.

Not all transforming robots are Transformers branded, and not all transforming robots that are not branded transformers automatically become less legit than transforming robots that are Transformers branded.

3rd party products that are not ripping off designs, engineering and stylistic approach of a copyrighted figure are every bit as legit as Hasbro's own product.


This is a blatant knockoff:



This is a perfectly legit product, an alternative to Hasbro's own product.


Just Like a Samsung Galaxy Phone or a Motorola Android are alternatives to an iPhone and are perfectly legit and considered by many to be just as good as an iPhone.


Again some 3rd party products are every bit as legit as Hasbro's own and like Fansproject has proven with the Bruticus add-on set and the Magnus armor they can be even better than Hasbro's attempts when they actually exist.

@joesaysso: I definitely see your point, and that's what I was kinda trying to express with the MISB qualifier in my post, but you expressed it more completely.

I will never sell my collection, and I do not view it as a financial investment in the respect that I do not care if it increases/decreases in monetary value. Has/Tak could go out of business tomorrow because everyone suddenly decides that all things Transformers suck, burn their collections, prices drop to $1 or less for every figure ever produced, the licensing rights go to Bandai, and Bandai mass produces every figure ever manufactured on such a scale that every "rare" or "exclusive" figure in my collection is now worthless and I would not care, because that is not why I collect. I collect because I enjoy the figures themselves, regardless of rarity.

That being said, I would never try to rip off a buyer by selling them a KO as a licensed product if a licensed product is what they're expecting (but I'd never sell anything in my collection anyway, if I didn't want them, I would have never bought them).

So yes, I fully acknowledge that for a collector that views their collection as a financial investment, that being deceived into purchasing a KO thinking it's a legit product is wrong (and why I called it fraud in my previous post).

All that being said, if I purchase a KO on ebay knowing it's a KO just because I want the figure in my collection and the only available "legit" versions of the figure are available on ebay for an insane price (NOT retail, i.e. Has/Tak sees $0 for the purchase), then a KO is good enough for me.

I value the 2 KO's I own just as much as I value the legit figures they stand next to, because they are representations of the characters that I wanted and are close enough to the originals for me (1 is Ramjet, the other is a classics style Sunstorm figure I bought from CHMS which I subsequently painted a bit as I often do with my figures to make them look the way I want them to). Their value is based purely on my desire for the figures, not based on the licensed/unlicensed nature of the toy nor its value in $ as appraised by Has/Tak, the market, or other collectors (that's also the reason I paid $200 for an X-9 Ravage only to remove it from the box, paint it, then put it on display with my Beast Wars figs).

Overcracker, i wasn't being dismissive. yes, i read your post.


the way is see it is yeah, 3rd party toys are legitimate products, same as any other company like Bandai, Kotobukiya, Yamato, CM's, Kaiyodo, etc etc; although technically they are not "Transformers".

and im fine with that, to me they are the definitive Springer and Ultra Magnus and Devastator, i would never use the 'Not-' prefix because i find it just stupid.

however, they aren't made by Hasbro and therefore legally do not hold the Transformer moniker. doesn't stop me from putting Autobot symbols on em though!

Sorry, was off for day. Let me start by saying that my earlier statement about 3rd parties being a bad investment was possibly a poorly verbalized attempt at getting my point across about 3rd parties and their future value. I don't think they are going to go up in value but I also don't view my collection as an investment either. I collect for enjoyment not worth. I'd rather see my collection in cool poses on my shelf than in a box being "preserved" forever.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:
Right now there's no way to prove this statement. And I tend to disagree. In the future people who still collect classics (and there's no doubt in my mind that there will be Neo-G1 collectors in the future)

At this point the market is still too new to really argue the point either way.

I agree fully. There is no way to prove this statement. It is completely 100% my opinion. And, indeed the market is too new to tell for sure. However, I take this stance because I disagree with your thought about Neo-G1 collectors existing in the future. The only reason Neo-G1 collectors exist now is because we have reached the point in the Transformers life span where G1 has become nostalgic to the generation of kids who grew up with it. Those kids are now adults who crave that G1 fix. However, there will come a time when, sadly, the generation of current collectors is a generation that did not not grow up with G1.

Anything that resembles a G1 Starscream will mean significantly less to them than it does to me because they didn't watch Starscream torment Megatron. They never saw Starscream toss Megatron out of Astrotrain. They weren't there when Starscream's ghost was running around in Unicron's head. They grew up with Beast Wars or Energon, or Movieverse and they won't care about G1. And when this happens, and it will happen this is how life works, any worth that Neo-G1 3rd party figures has now, will disappear with the generation of collectors who cared about them. There will always be a market for rare, authentic, original, antique toys but I don't see 3rd party figures ever being relevent enough to be considered in this group because they aren't targeted at a big enough audience now.

Overcracker wrote:I'm sorry, why is a third party product less legit than a Hasbro or Takara product?

I'm definitely not questioning they fact that they are a legit toy. As Astro pointed, they are not Transformers, they are just transforming robots. I'm being technical for the sake of the conversation because....

xyl360 wrote: I collect because I enjoy the figures themselves, regardless of rarity.

This statement brings us full circle. My whole point of view targets that certain type of collector whose collection is the holy grail of their possessions. Its almost as if their very existence is centered around their collection. They would never taint the goodness, respectability, worth of their collection with a no-good, dirty, makes them sick to their stomach KO. Everybody here either knows one of these people or is one of these people. These people can justify meshing their collection with 3rd party transforming robots, which are just as authentic as a KO, but the sight of a KO sickens them. I personally, don't understand this thought process. I argue that KOs and 3rd party are equivilant to each other when it comes to being authentic transformers (they aren't) yet one is completely and happily accepted without question and one of them is not.

I'm the type of collector like you. I totally understand the point and worth of KOs and 3rd parties. I won't pay their high prices right now but I understand them. Like Astro, if I had a Warbot Defender, I absolutely would be getting some proper insignias from Reprolabels and calling him Springer. But if I allow Warbot Defender to stand with my collection, what is the problem with allowing CHMS KO Skywarp. How is fake Skywarp different that fake Springer? To most collectors they aren't but to some they are. And I fail to understand this thinking. If one takes their collection seriously to the point of shunning KOs, I don't see how 3rd parties are so easily accepted. Not a transformer is not a transformer.

Astronopolis wrote:KOs will always be KOs, but I would think that 3rd party items would be more of an investment against hasbro toys, because they are produced in more limited quantities. FansProjects Cliffjumper kit fetches quite a pretty penny, as well as pretty much every item with limited release and no reissues. it does remain to be seen if this pattern will continue in the future, but for now you can reliably scalp a 3rd party item in the short term.

Yes, true but only because the Neo-G1 collecting is currently at its pinnacle and the market is hot for this stuff right now. If history is any indicator, this won't stay the case. Anybody old enough to remember when the first generation of "Tickle Me Elmo" was release should be able to remember how hot that item got. They flew off the shelves and people were paying $100 for a silly doll to make sure their kids had one under the Christmas tree that year. When interest waned and eventually disappeared, so too did the doll's worth.

Anybody who thinks Neo-G1 collecting will be around forever is fooling themselves. Time and life move on. Life will move on from G1 eventually, like or not. And when it does, it will take all of the worth that 3rd party figures currently have with it.

The only reason Neo-G1 collectors exist now is because we have reached the point in the Transformers life span where G1 has become nostalgic to the generation of kids who grew up with it. Those kids are now adults who crave that G1 fix. However, there will come a time when, sadly, the generation of current collectors is a generation that did not not grow up with G1.

Anything that resembles a G1 Starscream will mean significantly less to them than it does to me because they didn't watch Starscream torment Megatron.

I don't think this logic completely holds. Hasbro/Takara has been pushing Neo G1 for a long time now. Not just with the Classics lines, but with Armada and Energon and even Animated as well. It helps that characters retain names and personalities too. Moreover the old TF series can be watched on DVD or youtube. It's foolish to think that those DVD box sets are being gobbled up just by hardcore fans of the old shows. And on all TF sites G1 is the extremely prominent. Kids nowadays are being exposed to old shows we grew up with in a lot of ways we would never have guessed back in our day.

If G1 were to die permanently, we would have had a Beast Wars resurgence by now. Those kids have grown up too. But it's G1, not Beast Wars, that's always being pushed. Which is why I think Neo G1 will always be in demand. Well ... so long as the TF franchise remains popular, anyway. If the TF franchise dies then all bets are off.

So you are saying that anything that is not a a branded Transformer is somehow less (to use your own term) authentic?

I think what you are saying is that a product that is meant to replace or represent a branded Transformer (character) is less desirable to you if it doesn't come directly from Hasbro or Takara.

That's fine, but it doesn't make the toy any less authentic.

joesaysso wrote:
At the end of the day, whether its an exact copy of Hasbro's property or someone else's own version of Hasbro's property but it has a different name and its not called a Transformer, its still draining from Has/Tak's well. And neither is truly authentic. Yet some collectors fool themselves into thinking they are different and one is somehow better than the other.

joesaysso wrote:These people can justify meshing their collection with 3rd party transforming robots, which are just as authentic as a KO

I disagree, a KO does in fact drain from Hasbro's well, in what quantities it does so is another question. but it competes directly with an existing product of Hasbro's by ripping off the engineering, design, and functionality of said product.

The third party products so far fill a void in Hasbro's own line-up. Meaning Hasbro has no actual counterpart from which they would be draining.

Springer for instance: There was no, and up until now there is still no triple changing Springer in Hasbro's line-up. There was the Botcon Exclusive which was very limited, and from which Hasbro I don't think sees much revenue if any. And there was the 2 pack Springer from the Evac mold which was sold as in Target stores I believe, again exclusive. Neither of which were affected by a 3rd party product available only online to a select few collectors which by even Hasbro's own admissions don't affect their sales very much if at all.

In fact most of the time, these 3rd party products enhance the flow to Hasbro's well. As they add to an existing figure and hence make said figure more desirable, and in turn drive up sales. Sure Hasbro only sees actual profits from figures currently on shelves and not older discontinued figures. But they see profit. The Bruticus upgrade set as well as the Superion Upgrade set drove up sales of the at the time currently on shelves products they were upgrading.

Other Third party products provide a figure to fill a void that Hasbro at the time has not filled hence no draining.

K.O.s profit off of someone else's work by making available a similar but inferior quality product at the same time the real product is being sold without the expense of design or engineering for it.

3rd party products so far offer things that are either not available in Hasbro's own lines at the time or at all, or simply add on to current Hasbro products.

Overcracker wrote:
Other Third party products provide a figure to fill a void that Hasbro at the time has not filled hence no draining.

K.O.s profit off of someone else's work by making available a similar but inferior quality product at the same time the real product is being sold without the expense of design or engineering for it.

3rd party products so far offer things that are either not available in Hasbro's own lines at the time or at all, or simply add on to current Hasbro products.

You seem to be stuck on a supporting point to the main subject instead of the main subject but I'll bite anyway.

I would be inclined to agree with your statement if 3rd parties were strictly add-on based. Unfortunately, they have branched out into figures. What they do is make imitations of established Hasbro characters, use loop holes to distribute them, and sell them at an astronomical price to you. That is profitting off of Hasbro's work, like it or not. If Hasbro didn't originally create, market, and distribute Springer there would be no Warbot Defender. Just because they are doing you a favor and giving you a figure that you think you need that Hasbro doesn't make, doesn't mean they aren't profitting off of Hasbro's work. And just because it isn't profittable for Hasbro to do anything about it, doesn't make it anymore right than a straight KO.

Fans look the other way at 3rd parties because they think 3rd parties are about the fans and since fans are getting what fans want, then it must be ok. I'm sorry to say but that is the biased, blinded way of looking at it. 3rd parties shouldn't get a pass from the KO debate just because they do the honorable thing and engineer their own toys. I bet if you asked Hasbro, they would say that it is stealing.

Picture this: you made a beautiful painting and it became the hottest painting ever and it sold for a bunch of money. I see how much money this painting made and I try to capitalize on it by taking the painting and using a computer program to digitally change the colors ever so slightly to make the painting different. Then I printed the painting on t-shirts and sold the t-shirts for profit but I never once asked you if I could. Is that still not stealing? I went through a lot of effort to make sure I wasn't using your exact painting. And you currently aren't selling t-shirts with your painting so technically, I'm not taking any money directly out of your pocket. Am I now ok? I'm giving fans of your work a product that they want that you currently aren't giving them. I never got your permission to do this and I went through a lot of effort to make my product not exactly your product. Am I still ok? Without a doubt, it was your work and your effort that is now selling my product. How ok am I now? You are too poor to sue me and since you aren't selling paintings anyway, you just let me do my thing and choose to ignore me. How about now?

Just because some people are getting what they want out of the deal, doesn't necessarily make it legit or on the up-and-up. Hasbro would tell you it was stealing. And this makes them no better than KOs.

I was under the impression the main point was that 3rd part products and KO's are the bane of Hasbro, I agree on K.O's I just think 3rd Party products are perfectly legal.

In your example of someone stealing my painting there's something there that actually exists to be stolen and modified: i.e the painting. That's a K.O.

However if I were to make a painting of a red car with a blond woman next to it, does that automatically preclude everybody else from painting a red car with a blond girl? I don't think so.

In the Defender instance, you are saying that no one has the right to ever produce or design a green and gray robot that turns into a helicopter and some kind of "car" ever because at some point almost 30 years ago Hasbro had the balls to make one?

That's like saying no one ever again can make a red sports car because Ferrari already did it.

I'm sorry but no defense attorney anywhere is going to go to court over that.

Overcracker wrote:I was under the impression the main point was that 3rd part products and KO's are the bane of Hasbro, I agree on K.O's I just think 3rd Party products are perfectly legal.

In your example of someone stealing my painting there's something there that actually exists to be stolen and modified: i.e the painting. That's a K.O.

However if I were to make a painting of a red car with a blond woman next to it, does that automatically preclude everybody else from painting a red car with a blond girl? I don't think so.

In the Defender instance, you are saying that no one has the right to ever produce or design a green and gray robot that turns into a helicopter and some kind of "car" ever because at some point almost 30 years ago Hasbro had the balls to make one?

That's like saying no one ever again can make a red sports car becauose Ferrari already did it.

I'm sorry but no defense attorney anywhere is going to go to court over that.

I'm sorry but your impression is incorrect. Please read the thread again from the beginning. Hopefully that will provide some clarity. I actually explained at length how I don't believe they are bad. Just the same. Just because no defense attorney is going to court over it doesn't mean it is right. 3rd parties make "not" transformers. Period. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. And don't be so sure about your "no attorney would go to court over it' statement. If hasbro deemed it worth it to sue over warbot defender, I would put money on hasbro coming out ahead there. Making a red sports car is one thing. Making a red sports car that just so happens to change into a robot, a car, and a helicopter and hanging a billboard of your new car across the street from the ferrari store is another.

oh snap!

So much has been said already, and so well that I just read the whole thing from the beginning. I have ordered KO products and haven't seen them yet (CHMS seekers) so I cannot comment on my feelings on the company, though I've heard enough positive things to make me spend my money on them. I can however testify to the quality of FansProject, Reprolabels, and PerfectEffect.

I collect because both me and my son love Transformers, he's an Animated and Bayverse fan, I'm into G1. So I want my G1 collection the way I remember it, toys I had, toys I always wanted but never had. I didn't start collecting until just recently, so I'm way behind. So I am proof that fandom is driving up the market, when eBay, amazon, crave, tfsource, etc all list a character for well over a reasonable $13-40 range, but I just have to have it = supply and demand.

I never once cared about who actually produced the character, just want a nice G1 collection. I do however wonder about KO Toys and such. They are character likenesses, names, colors, and even have trademarked faction symbols. Maybe they can get away with it due to companies not being so worried about infringement lawsuits back in the 80's and it's a loophole today.

As far as legalities go, Hasbro/Takara never even has to issue a lawsuit to get these companies that produce copies of their licensed product (KOs) shutdown. There are lawyer groups who work for themselves and just go around issuing copyright claims. My parents have a souvenir shop and work with Chinese companies to create their own products, 3rd party type work. [ For example, they are licensed to sell LSU and Saints products, but also create their own. They can do this by not using officially licensed colors or sayings. So a purple and yellow shirt that says "Geaux Tigers" sells well down here and takes money that would have gone to LSU, but is their own and can't be stopped. ] They have been approached numerous times, blackmail style, by these law firms; but have no need to worry due to doing their homework prior to creating the product.

How iGear and CHMS can directly copy these figures? You got me, I'm sure there is some loophole they are exploiting. Do I have any qualms about having a Takara/Hasbro/KO/3rd party G1 collection? Not at all

On the subject of KO's being worth less over a long period of time compared to the originals.
KO oversized Bruticus is worth more than the original Bruticus, it's also made of a higher grade of plastic.
KO Overlord, loose worth more than an original Overlord MIB, this one is also of higher quality than the original and both are about 20 years old.

Thats interesting. Perhaps the oversized/better plastic may have something to do with it. Longterm worth may be an area where 3rd parties and KOs may differ. I suppose HQ KOs and junk KOs would also differ as well.

But how are you determining their worth for this statement?

joesaysso wrote:Thats interesting. Perhaps the oversized/better plastic may have something to do with it. Longterm worth may be an area where 3rd parties and KOs may differ. I suppose HQ KOs and junk KOs would also differ as well.

But how are you determining their worth for this statement?

It has to do with desirability, supply and demand, and quality.
The Oversized Bruticus has the limbs sized to about Voyager size, which makes Bruticus really, really huge. It's also very rare and therefore hard to come bye, and when it does show up it sells for silly money while an original Bruticus can be bought at a fairly reasonable price. Basically the only thing about the giant KO that's inferior to the original toy is the stickers.

Overlord's KO has a bit of a different tooling to the original, namely it uses Starsaber's head and shoulders. It also has higher quality materials, this alters the look drastically and combined with how rare it is today, it's cheaper getting an original Overlord than that thing and it's also hard to find these days.

There are also other KOs of other TFs that go for silly money due to them being set apart from the original figure and their rarity.

So do you think it's just a coincidence Kre-O have KO in its name? I bet it went down something like this...

A: So, what should we call 'em?
B: How about re-Legos?
A: How about KO Legos?
B: How about we combine the two and drop the Lego? Kre-Os!
A: Brilliant, B!

KOtoys released these designs from CHMS. Looking promising.

They said the cab-robot is the size of a Classic Voyager Optimus Prime.

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