The Energon Pub

Looking through Wiki, YouTube, the fourms here, and everywhere else Transformers related I've researched my ass off and I just don't get some of these characters for ROTF.

In the first movie the only real issue is that Brawl was mistakenly called Devastator in the movie which was left in from an older script draft but the toy calls him Brawl and he was called Brawl in the video announcement of all the characters. Pluse the huge guy in the second Movie is Devastator.

So for the first movie the cast is...

Autobots: # Bumblebee (Mark Ryan)
# Optimus Prime (Peter Cullen)
# Ironhide (Jess Harnell)
# Ratchet (Robert Foxworth)
# Jazz (Darius McCrary)

Decepticons: # Megatron (Hugo Weaving)
# Frenzy (Reno Wilson)
# Barricade (Jess Harnell)
# Blackout
# Scorponok
# Starscream (Charles Adler)
# Brawl (David Sobolov)
# Bonecrusher (Jimmie Wood)

For ROTF it gets majorly confusing. The way I see it the cast list should go like this...

Autobots: * Optimus Prime (Peter Cullen)
* Jetfire (Mark Ryan)
* Bumblebee
* Ironhide (Jess Harnell)
* Ratchet (Robert Foxworth)
* Sideswipe (Andre Sogliuzzo)
* Skids (Tom Kenny)
* Mudflap (Reno Wilson)
* Arcee (Grey DeLisle)
* Chromia
* Unnamed Arcee triplet (possibly Flairup or Elita One)
* Jolt
* Wheelie (Tom Kenny)

Decepticons: * The Fallen (Tony Todd)
* Megatron (Hugo Weaving)
* Starscream (Charlie Adler)
* Soundwave (Frank Welker)
* Blackout (Frank Welker)
* Ravage (Frank Welker)
* Scorponok
* Scavenger (Calvin Wimmer)
* Devastator (Frank Welker)
* Long Haul
* Mixmaster
* Rampage (Kevin Michael Richardson)
* Scrapper
* Sideways
* Dr. Scalpel (John Di Crosta)
* Insecticon
* Reedman (formed by Microcons) (Frank Welker)
* Alice (Isabel Lucas)
* Bonecrusher

Now to exsplain abouve...

First of all, Bumblebee had a voice actor who is still in this movie yet he never voices Bumblebee except for the 2 lines he did at the end of the first movie.

There were 3 motorcycles in the movie but for the life of me I can't find the name of the 3rd one. She doesn't even appear to have a toy at least not that I can find on Hasbro's web site. I guess Hasbro didn't watch the movie or get the memo that there were 3 of them.

Blackout who is credited in the movie and toy line as Grindor appears to be the exact same mold and color sceme as Blackout. At least in the toy line they gave him new colors but in the movie he just looks like Blackout. At least in other series when they take and make two characters with the same mold they actully try to repaint them so they don't look like the same guy. Being that there's no difference of any kind between these characters I'm refuseing to accept that he's a new character and am just going to call him Blackout. To make matters even worse, this guy is allso partnered with Scorpinok just like the first movie and if that's not proof that he's the same character I don't know what is, ignoreing the fact that Scorpinok shouldn't of been in the second movie at all.

The guy who was killed at the begining of the movie has been deemed Demolishor in the toy line and credited as Wheelbot in the movie but the same vehicle that formed Devistator's body was called Scavenger. Being that Scavenger doesn't seem to have a robot mode of it's own in the movie or in the toy line I figure the name is better suited for it's vehicle counterpart that does actully transform into a robot.

Devistator is all one character with what appears to be 6 vehicles in the toy line and 7 or 8 in the movie non of which have individual robot modes and don't deserve to be individually named as they are just parts of 1 transformer rather than several smaller Transformers that combine. Would be great if he worked more like the legends toys that have vehicle to robot to Devastator transformation but it's only vehicle to Devastator, no individual robots. Overload and Hightower and possibly one other who I never noticed but is mentioned on wiki do not appear to have any twins but they do have robot modes only in the form of concept art, art that was apperently used to make the afore mentioned legends figures. Sence these guys appear to just be parts and not characters I'm not listing them as characters.

As it appears, there are two different things refered to as Long Haul. A dump truck with it's own robot mode and a different but identicle looking dump truck that forms Devastator's right leg. Sence Long Haul can't possibly be in two places at once he is obviously the one with his own robot mode and not simply someone elses right leg.

As it appears, there are two different things refered to as Mixmaster. A cement mixer with it's own robot mode and a different but identicle looking cement mixer that forms Devastator's head. Sence Mixmaster can't possibly be in two places at once he is obviously the one with his own robot mode and not simply someone elses head.

As it appears, there are two different things refered to as Rampage. A bulldozer with it's own robot mode and a different but identicle looking bulldozer that forms Devastator's left leg. Sence Rampage can't possibly be in two places at once he is obviously the one with his own robot mode and not simply someone elses left leg. To make matters even more confuseing he allso appears to be creadited as Skipjack but I hate that name so Rampage it is.

Scrapper seems to have not two but 3 look alikes. A character refered to as "the little one" who gets killed for spair parts to repair Megatron is said to look like Scrapper, so I'm going to assume it IS Scrapper as I never get a good look at either of them durring the movie and simply don't care if they're the same character or not. And just like the 3 abouve, Scrapper is an individual robot that does not form Devastator's right arm.

Scalpel allso called the Doctor seems easy enough that Doctor being a title not a name makes the character Dr. Scalpel.

Insecticon being the little fly that lost it's head. Really shouldn't of bothered listing it as it appears to be a drone rather than a character.

So yeah that's basically my cast list and reason's for it. Had the individual robots actully combined to form Devastator rather than haveing non-individually-transforming twins I would of listed them differently like this...

# Devastator (Gestalt) (Frank Welker)
# Scavenger (torso) (Calvin Wimmer)
# Overload (lower waist)
# Rampage (left leg) (Kevin Michael Richardson)
# Long Haul (right leg)
# Scrapper (right arm)
# Hightower (left arm)
# Mixmaster (head)

Based off the legends toy version of them.

Rather than this...

* Scavenger (Calvin Wimmer)
* Devastator (Frank Welker)
* Long Haul
* Mixmaster
* Rampage (Kevin Michael Richardson)
* Scrapper

Which is how they appear to be in the movie in a way that makes the most sence to me.

Any questions or comments and please keep in mind everything I've said here is strickly my own opinion of things in a way that makes the most sence to me. As such any comments can consist of you own personal opinions and questions should be asked to gain a better understanding why I've come to these opinions.

Allso, if anyone can find out who the 3rd Arcee sister is, please let me know so I can update the Autobot's list.

It is NOT Blackout, Blackout was BLACK, Grindor is WHITE, look at the battle scene when Optimus Rips his head in two, he is WHITE...........and please use spell check next time.

nikeprime wrote:It is NOT Blackout, Blackout was BLACK, Grindor is WHITE, look at the battle scene when Optimus Rips his head in two, he is WHITE...........and please use spell check next time.

Well actually its very hard to tell from the movie the very subtle differences between the two characters.

The only real difference, that only veeery knowledgeable folks would know, is that the helicopter form of Grindor is much larger than Blackout's. There's also a subtle difference in the equipment mounted on the nose of the vehicle mode, but again, nothing you'd pick up as a casual viewer.

That's all I actually have to say because, and I say this as politely as I can, your post was tooo long for my tired eyes.

nikeprime wrote:It is NOT Blackout, Blackout was BLACK, Grindor is WHITE, look at the battle scene when Optimus Rips his head in two, he is WHITE...........and please use spell check next time.

Apperently you're more color blind than I am and/or aren't paying attention to the lighting conditions.

Blackout was a dark blue or purple and his toy was colored the same way. The name Blackout has to do with his EMP ability not his color scheme.

Grindor's toy is white with some light grey splotches but the version in the movie looks exactly the same as Blackout.

Skorpinok was recolored Black for the ROTF toy line but likewise is the same color in the movie as he was in the first movie.

In the first movie Blackout was shown under verry dark lighting conditions as he was seen at night and shadowed by buildings which could make him appear black but his toy most certainly was not black.

In the second movie the guy who I'm going to call Blackout, you can call him Grindor if you want I don't really care, was seen in much brighter lighting conditions as he was out in the forest in the middle of the day which could make him appear lighter.

As it appears you're seeing them as black and white even though they're both blue/purple my guess is that you can't see color at all or have a difficult time with it as apposed to me who can see color but can't see subtle differences in colors. (at least I think they're subtle)

And what spell check? There is no spell check.

Just to provide some extra proof...

Even Blackout's promotional image on the top of his wiki page looks white under that lighting. But look at the toys. That's how both characters are colored in the movie.
http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Blackout_(Movie)

As far as I can tell, Gridor only exsists as a white repeat of Blackout in the toy line, not in the movie. They appear to be the same character in the movie.
http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Grindor_(Movie)

The way I see it is the Decepticons revived Blackout and Bonecrusher when they revived Megatron. I know Blackout in RotF is a slightly different Helicopter than he was in the first movie, but Megatron's new alt mode is vastly different and he's the same character.

All three of the bikes were Arcee in the movie. They were a hive mind like G1 Reflector. I think they just named the toys to distinguish between them. Chromia looks better on a package than Blue Arcee unit.

Devastator is one robot who transforms into several vehicles, like a really big Duocon. I think in the early stages of development they were going to have him as a traditional combiner, but changed it somewhere.

Ze little one is a different Constructicon from Scrapper. Scrapper's pretty big, almost as big as Long Haul. Starscream calls Rampage by name, so that works for me.

Rial Vestro wrote:In the first movie the only real issue is that Brawl was mistakenly called Devastator in the movie which was left in from an older script

You really cant call it a mistake if it was done on purpose.

RV, you didn't come up with any new or ingenious ideas as to anything. Sorry, but someone had to say it.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:In the first movie the only real issue is that Brawl was mistakenly called Devastator in the movie which was left in from an older script

You really cant call it a mistake if it was done on purpose.

But it wasn't done on purpose.

Just the same as Frenzy was originally going to be Soundwave and Blackout was originally called Vortex, Brawl was originally called Devastator but his name was changed in the script before the movie came out. They all were but for some unknown reason, the little text that shows up on screen wasn't changed to reflect the change in the script so it is a mistake.

The wrighters and hasbro announced that his name was Brawl, the only place the name Devastator shows up is in the editing room where they added that text to the movie. Pluse we don't need two Devastator's in the same universe, the wrighters had most likely intended on adding ROTF Devastator when they made the choice to change the first one's name to Brawl just like they intended to introduce Soundwave in a later movie when they changed his name to Frenzy.

Rial Vestro wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:In the first movie the only real issue is that Brawl was mistakenly called Devastator in the movie which was left in from an older script

You really cant call it a mistake if it was done on purpose.

But it wasn't done on purpose.

But it was as I already defeated you on that argument 2 years ago by proving that Bay deliberately wanted the name to be Devastator.

I linked you an interview of him saying so.

So if you want to claim you forgot that debate fine.........but I find it hard to believe because it went on for the better half of a month.Just before the first film was released on DVD.

It was no mistake.

The writters wanted Brawl,Hasbro wanted Brawl.

Bay wanted Devestator....and thats what he got.

It was no mistake,It was deliberate.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:In the first movie the only real issue is that Brawl was mistakenly called Devastator in the movie which was left in from an older script

You really cant call it a mistake if it was done on purpose.

But it wasn't done on purpose.

But it was as I already defeated you on that argument 2 years ago by proving that Bay deliberately wanted the name to be Devastator.

I linked you an interview of him saying so.

So if you want to claim you forgot that debate fine.........but I find it hard to believe because it went on for the better half of a month.Just before the first film was released on DVD.

It was no mistake.

The writters wanted Brawl,Hasbro wanted Brawl.

Bay wanted Devestator....and thats what he got.

It was no mistake,It was deliberate.

Sto, just stop. Please, I refuse to get pulled into another one of these debates that does nothing but derail the topic and you're allready know I'm not in a good mental state. Why do you think I went threw the trouble of adding "comments should be your own opinions and questions should be asked to better understand my opinion." to the end of my first post. Now please, just respect that request or don't reply to me at all.

Sabrblade wrote:

Rial Vestro wrote:Just to provide some extra proof...

Even Blackout's promotional image on the top of his wiki page looks white under that lighting. But look at the toys. That's how both characters are colored in the movie.
http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Blackout_(Movie)

As far as I can tell, Gridor only exsists as a white repeat of Blackout in the toy line, not in the movie. They appear to be the same character in the movie.
http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Grindor_(Movie)

Maybe if you went to the right wiki, instead of that inferior one, you'd see that he's a different character from Blackout:

TFWiki.net wrote:In the TFWiki.net Hasbro Q&A for July 2009, it was confirmed that Grindor, not Blackout, appears in the movie.

"TFWiki.net's July 2009 Hasbro Q&A wrote:2. There has been some confusion about the Revenge of the Fallen character Grindor and whatever relationship he may have with Blackout from the previous line. Further confusion has arisen due to a Robot Heroes release featuring Blackout for the Revenge of the Fallen toyline. Can you please clarify if it was definitively Grindor who appeared in Revenge of the Fallen, and if so, what is his relationship to Blackout?

At the time we needed to proceed with the Robot Heroes product development schedule and we made the decision to keep Blackout in the line in his original form and colors. However, it is Grindor that appears in Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Blackout_(Movie)

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Grindor_(ROTF)

Still looks like the same guy. I know what the wrighters say about them and I'm not argureing that they aren't different characters. I'm just pointing out that there's really nothing in the movie to let the general audience know that they're different characters.

Alot of casual movie goers aren't going to see whatever subtle differences there are between them nor are they going to follow every interview with the creators, or even look at the toy line like some fans will. There's more of a difference in the toys than in the movie so the way I see it because of all that they might as well be the same character.

Hell the way they do the movies the majority of the Decepticons are never named on screen anyway. I had to do a tone of research to find any of the names I did and there are still characters in ROTF who remain nameless. Durring both movies whenever I watch with a friend I have them asking me what the characters names are because of this. Basically, the movies just do a horrible job of introduceing characters and they're lucky we use their names at all when it would be much easier to simply call them all "Generic Decepticon" and that's probly what most casual movie goers do. If I remember correctly neither Blackout or Grindor were ever named on screen so all the movie fans who are casual movie goers and not long term Transformers fans would probly just call them "the helicopter guy".

The short version of all this... I choose to call him Blackout because that's the name "the helicopter guy" was given in the first movie and I see nothing that shows ON SCREEN in the second movie to indicate that this is a different helicopter guy. If the paint jobs were as defineing as the toy line I could accept it but the models that appear in the movie look the same to me. As long as they look the same, they are the same. And again, this is just my opinion and my reasons behind that oppion. I'm not trying to prove they are the same character just pointing out how hard it is to tell the difference between them.

Rial Vestro wrote:Sto, just stop. Please, I refuse to get pulled into another one of these debates that does nothing but derail the topic and you're allready know I'm not in a good mental state. Why do you think I went threw the trouble of adding "comments should be your own opinions and questions should be asked to better understand my opinion." to the end of my first post. Now please, just respect that request or don't reply to me at all.

Not sure why your taking it personally but fine.

And dont try to say I'm trying to pull you into a debate.

I only said it wasnt a mistake in my original reply and nothing else.Its not like I went on a rant saying you are wrong or anything.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Not sure why your taking it personally but fine.

I'm not, yet... simply a procaution so it never escalates that far. Like I said, I'm not in a good mental state to deal with this now.

And dont try to say I'm trying to pull you into a debate.

I only said it wasnt a mistake in my original reply and nothing else.Its not like I went on a rant saying you are wrong or anything.

It could of easily been the start of yet another pointless debate between us that is all.

Rial Vestro wrote:I'm not, yet... simply a procaution so it never escalates that far. Like I said, I'm not in a good mental state to deal with this now.

It could of easily been the start of yet another pointless debate between us that is all.

If a "pointless debate" had started I wouldnt be to blame.

Like I said, all I made was 1 non-challenging statement.If you wanted to avoid any kind of discourse with me then there was no need to reply to what I said.

But......If thats all then let it drop now.

Honestly the whole Blackout/Grindor debate is simple.

If you are a fan and concerned about characters and such Blackout is the chopper in the First movie, and has nothing to do with Grindor the chopper in the second movie.

If you are a casual fan and/or a member of the general movie watching public going to watch an action flick, there was a chopper in both movies. I can't think of anybody I have spoken with who watched the movies that was concerned about them either way. Just as those viewers can care less that Devs name was used twice, or that different pieces were used for him than the Mixmaster and others shown in other actions.

If there is any further debate, it's based more on geek cred than anything else.

Editor wrote:Honestly the whole Blackout/Grindor debate is simple.

If you are a fan and concerned about characters and such Blackout is the chopper in the First movie, and has nothing to do with Grindor the chopper in the second movie.

If you are a casual fan and/or a member of the general movie watching public going to watch an action flick, there was a chopper in both movies. I can't think of anybody I have spoken with who watched the movies that was concerned about them either way. Just as those viewers can care less that Devs name was used twice, or that different pieces were used for him than the Mixmaster and others shown in other actions.

If there is any further debate, it's based more on geek cred than anything else.

There's no debate. I'm avoiding debates. It's more of "what's your prefrence?"

Basically rather than argueing what's offical or not, which yes offically they are different characters. The question is do you feel that they're different characters?

And personally it's because I care about characters that I think he should be Blackout. Because they didn't care enough to do anything so that the casual movie goer could tell them apart they as well be the same guy.

With Demolisher(Who I prefer to call Scavenger) and Scavenger(Who I prefer to call Devastator's main body.) you can tell them apart because even though they're the same vehicle with the same coloring they have entirely different transformations. One has his own robot mode and does not form into Devastator and the other forms Devastator and does not have a robot mode.

With Blackout and Grindor, I don't see any way of telling them apart from eachother. They look more alike than the so called "Twins". They even had a bit in the movie where one said the other was Ugly and he responded with "I'm ugly? We're twins you idiot." or something to that effect and they're not even identicle. Yes they're twins but in human terms they would be faternal twins sence they look simular but not identicle. True identicle twins you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from eachother by appearance so I guess if Blackout and Grindor are different characters than they must be identicle twins. (that was a rather badly exicuted joke.)

The concept of twins and or brotherhood has been a flaw since G1, the movie just goes along with the flow. Why should Skids and Mudflap be any different than the Lambo brothers.

Think about the fact there is little to no debate whether Sideswipe and Sunstreaker are brothers despite having completely different looks and transformation yet their casemates had Ratchet/Ironhide, Prowl/Bluestreak were identical in form and transformation yet never considered to be "family". It's what we were told and as happy little consumers we took it to heart.

It again comes down to personal taste where anything can be what you want it to be, but if it does contradict stated points from the people in authority to make 'canon' statements then state your preference and accept others will not agree with you, without needing to restate your justifications every time somebody disagrees with you, because it does make it look like you are wanting to debate facts.

Editor wrote:it does make it look like you are wanting to debate facts.

How does it look like I'm wanting to debate facts when I've stated verry clearly and verry delibratly in every single post of this topic that this is my opinion and I know what the facts are. Nothing I've said is saying that the facts are wrong.

Basically all I've said can be shortened into the topic title. It's called "confusing character choices" for a reason, I know what the facts are, I know what the creators have said. It's a simple matter of it just doesn't make any sence to me.

My cast list may not be cannon but it makes sence to me. The offical cast list confuses me. I'm not trying to change what is offical, I'm just stating what makes the most sence to me. If you don't agree with it that's fine and I encourage you to post your own opinion of what makes the most sence to you. If the offical cast list actully makes sence to you then all the more power to you, it just looks like a freaky jumbled mess to me.

That's all this topic is about, not the offical facts, but just what makes the most sence to us as viewers.

"TFWiki.net's July 2009 Hasbro Q&A wrote:2. There has been some confusion about the Revenge of the Fallen character Grindor and whatever relationship he may have with Blackout from the previous line. Further confusion has arisen due to a Robot Heroes release featuring Blackout for the Revenge of the Fallen toyline. Can you please clarify if it was definitively Grindor who appeared in Revenge of the Fallen, and if so, what is his relationship to Blackout?

At the time we needed to proceed with the Robot Heroes product development schedule and we made the decision to keep Blackout in the line in his original form and colors. However, it is Grindor that appears in Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen.

I'm still not convinced. That's what Hasbro says, they make the toys not the movie. If they intended someone who looks just like Blackout to be a different character they would have mentioned his name somewhere.

Question about Grindor/Blackout:

I THOUGHT (So please correct gently and don't slap me) that the difference between the two IS a toy color difference. BUT I also thought that though both Blackout and Grindor are Sikorskies, they were different models. The toys are both Pave Lows, but I thought Grindor was not a Pave Low, and have different armaments (as in, not the .50 on the chest) than Blackout.

MInd you I don't have a copy of ROTF yet, so maybe someone who has it could check that? Gently? So we don't get into a mean argument? Again? Pretty please?

HK, peace and harmony, people...

hellkitty wrote:Question about Grindor/Blackout:

I THOUGHT (So please correct gently and don't slap me) that the difference between the two IS a toy color difference. BUT I also thought that though both Blackout and Grindor are Sikorskies, they were different models. The toys are both Pave Lows, but I thought Grindor was not a Pave Low, and have different armaments (as in, not the .50 on the chest) than Blackout.

MInd you I don't have a copy of ROTF yet, so maybe someone who has it could check that? Gently? So we don't get into a mean argument? Again? Pretty please?

HK, peace and harmony, people...

He is a different helicopter in RotF from what I've heard, but changing altmodes is pretty routine for Transformers. Bumblebee, Skids, and Mudflap changed their altmodes.

You must be colorblind if you can't see the grey and white tones on Grindor DURING THE MOVIE, and the dark, blackish purple color of Blackout.