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Thanks for the pic !

The front pictures in my box is really different for exemple the red part below is really dark and doesn't cover the same extent of the box, it looks like it has been printed from a bad scan of a genuine box, and that only the brightest red parts show on mine. I'll post a picture as soon as I'm back from work.

Have a look to the link I provided above, the pictures from the auctions are really different. There is no way that Takara would made such different and badly printed boxes as the one in the last link.

Again, I remind that I previously owned an MP-5, and I immediately felt something was off when I had this box in hands.

I have read plenty of time there is no MP-5 KO, but I was surprised yesterday to see that some chinese sellers are selling counterfeit MP-5 (clearly adevertised as KO).

For the MP-15 & MP-16, I know that the ribbing helps to determine if it is genuine (and also the red paint on rumble, which have a metallic finish on real one). I already own a MP-15 purchased from BBTS (but my Ravage is broken), so it will be easyer to show if it is a fake or a legit MP.

A follow up on my issues with Lena... I finally received my MP-15 & MP-16 and they are definitely KOs.

First some picture from the MP-5 I received yesterday from Lena :






When you compare with picture from the one on Seibertron the differences are obvious (look at the red background, the reflection on Meg's arm gun, the left leg...).



This MP-5 is obviously a bootleg, just based on the box. There is NO WAY so huge differences could be factory variations. The illustrations look like they were scanned and then reprinted on the KO's box, losing definition and color depth in the process (again, the most striking is the red background which is almost black in Lena's MP-5. And yes, pictures are not underexposed and accurately reflect the real thing).

Now about the MP-15 & MP-16 I just received... As I said, I own a legit MP-15, purchased from BBTS, and there a are striking differences between this one and the one I received from Lena. I used this video to help me find if it was a KO or not : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8hGZvetf14

The box from the MP-15 from Lena has slightly blurry illustrations (even more obvious when you have both in hands), faded colors.
Pictures (the one from BBTS is on the left)




Inside, the graphics on the card are also slightly blurry, and colors are off. The instruction leaflet is also folded differently.
Picture (the one from BBTS is on the left)


The most striking difference is the pink cassette box, showing a strong color difference and texture : the Takara one is more "matte" while Lena's one is more "clear".
Picture (the one from BBTS is on the left):


I found all the other differences mentionned in the video (color differences in the red painting of Rumble visor, blurry tampo printing), but I confirm that besides these differences barely noticeable, the KO is VERY close to the original, and anyone without a legit one to compare could be fooled ! Note that the box however HAS the ribbing, so be aware that RIBBING is no more a give away !!!

For the MP-16 I have to assume this also is a KO, although I can not compare with a legit one. Again, pictures are faded especially in the back of the box, slightly blurry, and the pink cassettes boxes are the same as those from Lena's MP-15 (thus, very different from BBTS MP-15). I also have the issues of loose pining of the accessories shown in this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISlZOX2rmFs

So everyone, please, be careful when you purchase from Lena, she/he currently sells MP-15 & MP-16 advertised as "not KO". She/he is obvously scamming us TF fans. She established a good reputation, maybe deserved, maybe not, but she is selling KOs.

Guillaume.

Hey Pilgrim!

Do the boxes have ridges though? Could it be that these are the real deal but factory rejects? And the reason why they are selling them is because they didnt make the cut for retail? Could that explain why the casette boxes are too pink for instance?

Hi,

the ribbng on the cardboard is there, but less noticeable than on the one from BBTS (look at the picture).

There are too many issues to be factory rejects. If they were, there shouldn't be different paints or plastic colors (or in the case of Meg, misprints on the box same misprints that are found on KO MP5 on ebay).

Also the problems I noticed are exactly the same as the one mentionned in the video comparison of MP-15 vs KO MP-15.

No they are defnitely KOs, I am convinced of that. Anyone will make his own mind, I just provide my experience.

I would like to add my input in the packaging.

My "friend" (Canadian Chinese) owns a packaging factory. He deals with Maybelline, Paris Hilton, Max Factor down to Hori computer controller boxes etc.

The company who subcontracts him provides him with the master negatives from which to print the box fonts.

So whoever contracts him sends him the box fonts which are kept in a vault. (the factory btw is in Shen shen China). Same with the type of boxes. They have to meet a certain standard of packaging.

The difference with the one Pilgrim shows and the ones we own are overtly veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery different. Heck, even those Cassetrons are 100% fake. The folding of the instruction manual in the plastic bag is all wrong. The boxes alone. No way can the KOers replicate the original box unless the packaging maker, like my buddy is also in cahoots by sharing the negatives. Another thing, the MP boxes are embossed with a limited run serial number to keep track of the stock. KOers will just copy the same set of numbers

Last but not the least, if these are overruns, it seems to be nigh infinite number. If I was TT/Hb, I'd be pissed that a lot of plastic is wasted on unsellable stocks. Hurts the bottom line.

Btw, here are those "overruns" of the cassetrons! From another site.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 33255.html



http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 12117.html



Uncle Billy labels them KOs

Hey ! Thanks for your input.

The Cassetrons (MP-15 & 16) are notorious for being really well done KOs (juste look at the videos I mentionned above). I was only able to tell they were KO by having a MP-15 from BBTS. Without it, the KO is so nicely done that I am not sure that anyone could tell. The figures themselves (Rumble & Ravage) are almost exactly the same as the legit ones. The most obvious differences are in the faded colors of the box, the slightly blurry pictures (you need to have both the legit and KO in hands to truly notice that), the folding of the instructions sheet and the colors that are a bit off on the stat cards. The things that truly give away the KO are the color and the texture of the pink cassette boxes.

Like you, I disagree that they are factory rejects or overstock. There is absolutely no way that so many differences (box + stat card + instruction leaflet folding + color of the cassette) could be explained this way. If they were overstocks they should be EXACTLY the same as the one sold by trusted reseller (BBTS and others). If they were factory rejects, some obvious problems (mispaints, misprints, missing parts...) should explain why they were rejected, but the rest should be again exactly as the legit ones.

Finally you are right, the steady supply of these items is in favor of a recent production of KOs, not overstocks of rare, discontinued figures.

I am underlining again one detail for helping people to determine if their figure is a KO or not : the cardboard boxes of Lena MP-15 & MP-16 have the ribbing, although it is less noticeable than on the legit one (look at the pictures above). So IMO, the presence or absence of ribbing is no more something you can use to separate a legit from a KO TF. Hell, even my MP-05 Meg, which is an obvious, cheaply done KO (seriously, when I got it in hand, I immediately seen that the picture quality on the box was waaaaaaay below the usual MP standards), has the ribbing !

I am sure that some people who posted in this thread got legit figures from Lena (like the Soundwave masterpiece, to my knowledge, this one has never been properly KOed). I am also sure that many others got KOs (expecially those who purchased MP-5 and the Cassetrons from Lena).

My advice : if you see that Lena is repeatedly selling the same item (even is she says it is legit) : RUN AWAY.

Finally, a follow-up on my story with Lena : I asked her/him to refund me including return shipping costs (because, yes, I was ready to send back these items to china), and as soon as I asked this, she stopped exchanging emails. I opened a paypal dispute (providing all the details I exposed here, link to pictures included), and paypal asked me to send back the items to china to get refund, but of course shipping costs would be my loss. Given that a tracked shipping to China costs aroud 60€ in France, and that the total amount I paid is around 160€, I am seriously considering selling those items myself (of course for what they are : KOs) at cheap price to french TFs collectors. In any case, this transaction with Lena was a VERY bad experience.

fenrir72 wrote:Btw, here are those "overruns" of the cassetrons! From another site.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 33255.html



http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 12117.html



Uncle Billy labels them KOs

Lena's are different though, as Pilgim stated. Those do not have ribbing on the boxes but Lena's do.

Pilgrim76 wrote: In any case, this transaction with Lena was a VERY bad experience.

So make sure you leave that feeback on e-bay to let other possible buyers know.

Lena's are different though, as Pilgim stated. Those do not have ribbing on the boxes but Lena's do.

I think ribbing is no more an absolute criteria for recognizing KOs. When ribbing isn't there, this is for sure a KO, but having the ribbing does not guarantee it is legit (again look at my MP-5...)

So make sure you leave that feeback on e-bay to let other possible buyers know.

You are right, I just did, and I also pointed to this forum for details.

BTW I'v read that you also purchased an MP-5 from Lena, is your box the same as mine, or were you lucky enough to get a legit one ?

Pilgrim76 wrote:BTW I'v read that you also purchased an MP-5 from Lena, is your box the same as mine, or were you lucky enough to get a legit one ?

I didnt look at the box yet. But it doesnt matter, they are all the same. I got it last year and it was from the same Lena listing. I doubt they were real last year if they are fake this year. Although the reason I didnt feel he was fake is because he was reissued in the late 2000s and there were a ton not sold and we know for a fact that Lena does have an in at the factories (that red bumblebee is not a ko for instance). So I really felt the MP Megs was either overstock or items that didnt pass inspection and they use the boxes that had errors on them.

I didnt look at the box yet. But it doesnt matter, they are all the same.

Actually it does matter.

Lena has built an extremely good reputation based on reports from us, TF collectors. I have read many testimonies (not only here but also on TFW2005, Reddit etc...) that the items received from Lena were genuine. This is mostly why I purchased with confidence from her.

It would be interesting to know if MP-5 (or other TFs) sold years ago by Lena were already KOs. That would mean that she sporadically scammed people (I say sporadically, because I am sure that some, if not most, of the items she sells are real).

Lena has currently several MP-5, 15 and 16 listed on ebay as "not KO", and people are bidding (like I did) believing they are the real deal. Lena's reputation was the reason why I bid so high for my MP-5, I was convinced it was genuine. While I was bidding, I have seen some MP-15 & 16 going for 30$ (while you can grab the same KOs for around 20 bucks on ebay or aliexpress). Lena's reputation added to the mention "not KO" are probably why people are so eager to bid higher than they would with an average chinese ebayer.

Let's face it, if some facts-supported reports claimed that BBTS, amiami or other trusted sellers were selling counterfeit items, would you order from them ?

Of course not.

It is the same for Lena, in my case, if I had read such negative feedback, I wouldn't have bid at all.

So it does matter. I do not say she is a bad seller in general, and I am aware that my negative report is only one among many positive ones. But maybe some past positive reports, in light of these events, would be reassessed.

In this event it would give a more accurate picture of this seller, and people (like me) would be more cautious while dealing with her.

Pilgrim76 wrote:

I didnt look at the box yet. But it doesnt matter, they are all the same.

So it does matter. I do not say she is a bad seller in general, and I am aware that my negative report is only one among many positive ones. But maybe some past positive reports, in light of these events, would be reassessed.

In this event it would give a more accurate picture of this seller, and people (like me) would be more cautious while dealing with her.

Thanks for telling me why it matters, I will in exchange reiterate why it doesnt. Those boxes you got for the casettes were the same everyone else got. Mine was a bit blurry too. But because they had ridges I said they were genuine and so did everyone else. These are the same boxes they were always selling and the same boxes taht gave that overwhelmingly positive response. Now you say theyare KOs, and thats ok you can say that. But everything you describe is the same thing others got before. Lena has not suddenly chang what they are selling. You can even tell the casettes boxes are blurry from the pics in the listing:



Look around the casettes area, its blurry, just like what we are getting.

And MP Megatron is a fragile and poorly made transformer anyway. It wont stand long and feels really cheap. I will give you a picture of my box tonight and you will see that it is the same thing. There are no KO megatrons on e-bay. There are megatrons taht sell for cheap (by that I mean around 100$) but there is no mention of a KO megatron anywhere and on any listing. You have gotten the same products as those who have vouched for Lena, this I am cetain of.

Sorry if you felt offended by my message, I simple wished to make a point : aside from personal feelings about Lena (yours as mine), I am just trying to provide here something I would have appreciated reading before being scammed.

Thanks for telling me why it matters, I will in exchange reiterate why it doesnt. Those boxes you got for the casettes were the same everyone else got. Mine was a bit blurry too. But because they had ridges I said they were genuine and so did everyone else. These are the same boxes they were always selling and the same boxes taht gave that overwhelmingly positive response. Now you say theyare KOs, and thats ok you can say that. But everything you describe is the same thing others got before. Lena has not suddenly chang what they are selling. You can even tell the casettes boxes are blurry from the pics in the listing:



Look around the casettes area, its blurry, just like what we are getting.

Well don't forget that I have a real MP-15 to compare (I am wondering how many claiming they received the real thing do). It's not only the blurry pictures and the ridges : The MP-15 I received from Lena is CLEARLY different from a legit one at several levels. I would probably have claimed they are real if I did not have one from BBTS, because the differences are subtle... but they are here.

And MP Megatron is a fragile and poorly made transformer anyway. It wont stand long and feels really cheap. I will give you a picture of my box tonight and you will see that it is the same thing. There are no KO megatrons on e-bay. There are megatrons taht sell for cheap (by that I mean around 100$) but there is no mention of a KO megatron anywhere and on any listing. You have gotten the same products as those who have vouched for Lena, this I am cetain of.

I do not discuss the fact that MP-5 is a crappy figure, it's common knowledge, and that's the reason why I sold my first MP-5 years ago. And there's actually MP-5 claimed as KOs on ebay :

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/New-Transformers ... SwT6pVpmZE
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/New-Transformers ... SwT6pVyWEm

Pilgrim76 wrote:Sorry if you felt offended by my message, I simple wished to make a point : aside from personal feelings about Lena (yours as mine), I am just trying to provide here something I would have appreciated reading before being scammed.

While I do dislike the idea of having been scammed, I just wanted to say that what you recieved was the same thing we all already recieved. I do think that most who got the casettes dont have the originals (I dont). And I didnt know about those Megatron listings, thanks, that is very interesting. I will make a post about it now. Et ne t'en fait pas, je n'étais pas offensé du tout, je suis jute un peu fataliste en pesant que les gens on déjà un opinion de Lena. Mais en tout cas c'est un peu hypocryte de ma part car c'est moi qui a créé ce feedback initiale sur ce site. Mais j'étais vraiment sous l'impression que c'était des extra et le fait que j'ai probablement des KO m'attriste.

For Megatron, I made a new thread based on this new info masterpiece-megatron-ko--p1785344.php#p1785344

I understand you, I wanted to believe that I received the real thing, but having another one to compare, I must only admit I've been fooled.

I am very upset about Lena, as I really trusted her after lurking on several forums and seeing so much praise. I am not on a crusade against her, this is handled by paypal, but I'd like to provide as many info I can get to help people determine if they have real or fake MPs.

I also noticed several other discrepancies, If you believe it could help, I can start another thread elsewhere with more pictures. Theres actually A LOT of small other details like some fonts that are smaller on the MP-15 KO, or the fact that the white border around the box of MP-5 KO overlaps with the canon while it doesn't on the real MP-5...

Let me know, if you believe it may help, I'll gladly do it

And by the way, ton Français est très bon

Pilgrim76 wrote:
And by the way, ton Français est très bon

J'espère, c'est ma langue maternelle, je suis québecois.

I think making a new thread in the toy discussion section with pictures comparing both would be good. Because the videos on youtube now prove to be outdated. I already started a megatron KO thread, you can start a MP Casette KO thread.

Great I'll do that during the week-end !

Et effectivement, je comprends que tu te débrouilles aussi bien en Français et en Anglais

Bonjour, Je viens de gagner 2 enchères avec le vendeur Lena81822 sur EBAY. Les Masterpiece MP-15 & MP-16. Puis j'ai vu votre éval négative pour ce vendeur et le commentaire. Donc, je viens de suivre votre discussions pour savoir si ce sont des KO. J'ai pas encore payé et avant cela je voudrais être certain qu'ils sont originaux. Pourriez vous s'il vous plaît m'envoyer des photos ou les mettre sur ce forum de Frenzy et Rumble en cassette pour voir ce qui est vendu réellement. 77gta@free.fr Je vous remercie d'avance.

Je mets la photo avec le détail que je retrouve sur tous les KO Frenzy mais aussi Rumble cette petite partie non peinte bleu sur le rond gris mauve autour du trou.

Hello,

Nope, I don't have this problem on mine, and you are right, the mispaint seems to be also present on the KO presented here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISlZOX2rmFs

So again, it is a question of wether the KOs have been improved or they are no KO at all.

But given that I received a MP-5 KO from Lena along with the MP-15 and MP-16, I wouldn't bet a penny on the legitmacy of these MP15 & MP16...

For a follow-up, here are the links to the MP-5, 15 & 16 KO discussions :
viewtopic.php?f=215&t=106854
viewtopic.php?f=215&t=106864

I have recently received four Masterpiece figures I ordered from Lena: a loose Grimlock, MP-5, MP-15, and MP-16. Unfortunately, I won the auctions shortly before I saw the negative feedback that led me to this thread. I do not own any other Masterpiece figures, so I do not have any frame of reference to compare these to.

Grimlock looks as I expected it to. It came in a large ziplock bag with the weapons in a smaller sealed bag. Both English and Japanese instructions were included in another sealed bag. Each half of the silver portion of the dino tail/robot feet was covered in a small plastic bag.

I was only able to locate two cosmetic defects with the figure: there is a small red bur that obscures part of the silver paint on his hips and the Autobot logo does not fully raise in his chest. For the price, I think these imperfections are reasonable.




I do not have any reason to suspect his particular figure is a counterfeit. The only KO Grimlocks currently listed as such on eBay are oversized. I noticed that the writing near the battery cover appears to be very clear and there was a small removable piece of clear plastic with writing used to break the connection in the batteries, traits I doubt would be a priority when making a KO figure.



At the other extreme is MP-5. Like Pilgrim76, I received a box that clearly differs from the genuine ones with the most glaring difference being the absence of the red fabric from the left side of the box. I have not opened the box and plan to initiate an item not as described return.



I cannot determine whether the MP-15 and MP-16 are genuine. Unlike Pilgrim76's boxes, mine do not exhibit blurry red writing on the back. The red and blue of Rumble and Frenzy also appear to be more vibrant on mine, but this may be due to differences in lighting. On the other hand, they are stamped A2113 and B2113, respectively, a trait they share with KO versions. I have not opened these and welcome any opinions on their authenticity.

Hi Tortious,

Thanks for your input. I have no idea if your grimlock is a real or fake masterpiece, I don't own it (but with your provided pictures, someone who has a real one may point out differences if they exist).

Your MP-5 is obviously the same KO as mine.

For the MP-15 & 16, without a legit one to compare, it is difficult to see if the colors are faded or not (as you say, it could be differences of lighting). I described here : viewtopic.php?f=215&t=106864 the differences between Lena's & BBTS MP-15.

For me the most obvious detail pointing to a KO without opening the box, is the blue "Takara Tomy" Logo. Compare it to the logo of other legit MP Boxes if you own other MPs, the one from Lena is of a lighter blue (in my case, I own more than 10 MPs, they are all of the same blue color).Unfortunately, you will need to open the box to see the most noticeable differences.

I wish you good luck with your refund (at least better luck than me), as paypal will ask you to send back the items at your own expenses. Do not hesitate to leave a feedback to Lena, she has scamed people for years (william-james also received the same MP-5 two years ago and sincerely believed it was a real one).

Edit : About the "blurryness" of the writings and the pictures of Lena's boxes I show, please note that the blur you see on my pictures is mostly due to out of focus.

To notice that it is (slightly) blurry, you need to have the real MP side by side with Lena's, the pictures and writings on Lena are sharp, but even sharper on the legit. This can not be seen on my pictures, I would need to use a macro objective to show it, but I don't own one.

Tortious wrote:I have recently received four Masterpiece figures I ordered from Lena: a loose Grimlock, MP-5, MP-15, and MP-16. Unfortunately, I won the auctions shortly before I saw the negative feedback that led me to this thread. I do not own any other Masterpiece figures, so I do not have any frame of reference to compare these to.

Grimlock looks as I expected it to. It came in a large ziplock bag with the weapons in a smaller sealed bag. Both English and Japanese instructions were included in another sealed bag. Each half of the silver portion of the dino tail/robot feet was covered in a small plastic bag.

I was only able to locate two cosmetic defects with the figure: there is a small red bur that obscures part of the silver paint on his hips and the Autobot logo does not fully raise in his chest. For the price, I think these imperfections are reasonable.




I do not have any reason to suspect his particular figure is a counterfeit. The only KO Grimlocks currently listed as such on eBay are oversized. I noticed that the writing near the battery cover appears to be very clear and there was a small removable piece of clear plastic with writing used to break the connection in the batteries, traits I doubt would be a priority when making a KO figure.



At the other extreme is MP-5. Like Pilgrim76, I received a box that clearly differs from the genuine ones with the most glaring difference being the absence of the red fabric from the left side of the box. I have not opened the box and plan to initiate an item not as described return.



I cannot determine whether the MP-15 and MP-16 are genuine. Unlike Pilgrim76's boxes, mine do not exhibit blurry red writing on the back. The red and blue of Rumble and Frenzy also appear to be more vibrant on mine, but this may be due to differences in lighting. On the other hand, they are stamped A2113 and B2113, respectively, a trait they share with KO versions. I have not opened these and welcome any opinions on their authenticity.

Grimlock is KO. Why? there are only so much overruns a company can make. TT I reckon isn't going to waste that much plastic and electricity and manpower to produce non sale able goods.

Btw, in Aliexpress, they are a dime a dozen.

Well there are MP-08 KOs (NOT oversized), like the Wukong WK-01...

I don't know if there is a way to tell if your MP-08 is fake or legit, but looking carefully at the video reviews of MP-08 and WK-01 may be a way to do so...

My opinion is the same as Fenrir : it is most likely a fake, because there is no way so many factory rejects would be produced, and because MP-5, 15, 16 and 08 are sold by Lena the same way : cheap, sometimes loose and/or unpainted figures. MP-5 & 15 are sure fakes, the probability of the rest being legit is close to nothing (and if it is, Lena is casting doubt on herself by being dishonest).

I was able to receive a full refund for all four items from eBay. I opened return requests for the items and chose the counterfeit option for the reason. I provided photos of what I received and reference photos of authentic items for comparison and described the differences between the items in detail. When Lena failed to respond for a week, I was able to escalate the case. This resulted in me almost instantly receiving a courtesy refund from eBay for Grimlock. Shortly after, I received emails from eBay about the other three items asking for additional proof in the form of documentation from law enforcement, manufacturer or retail stores, or credible third party experts. I was instructed to upload these at a link that was not functioning. At this point I called eBay and eventually spoke to a customer service representative who believed the additional documentation was not necessary. He was confused as to why it was even requested. He closed the case in my favor and provided me with courtesy refunds for the remaining three cases. I do not have to return anything.

I still have not found any definitive ways to tell if Grimlock is counterfeit. I was never able to find anything wrong with the figure itself, but did notice that the instructions were pixelated in some sections and that the sword appeared to be more rounded at the point than it was supposed to be for the Asia Exclusive release I supposedly received. When I opened my case, I used these differences combined with the relatively minor cosmetic defects I saw to justify the return.

Hopefully this information will help anyone else that purchases from Lena in the future. In the US at least, buyers have 30 days to open their return from the delivery date and sellers have to pay return shipping for item not as described cases if they want their item back. For a return to China, this would be economically irrational from the seller's perspective for all but the most expensive items. In the case of counterfeit items, eBay is not supposed to require a return at all and instead tell the buyer to destroy the counterfeit item, although I was only instructed to do so for Grimlock and was not required to submit proof of destruction. Aside from the time I spent researching what a counterfeit Grimlock might look like, this entire return process only took me one hour of effort.