The Energon Pub

I recently started watching the new Rid2015 show with my kid. Naturally this led me to decide that I needed to finally pick up some of the toys.

As I'm going about, catching up on molds, size classes, and options for the figures; I start noticing how close but very, very off the decos are.

Bumblebee is missing his door decos.



Strongarm is kind of a blurred vision of herself.



Drift has gone into orange overdrive and is far more saturated than is necessary.



Steeljaw is a wholly wrong color.



The list goes on to include almost every on-screen character in the line.

I know I'm griping about something that we have seen time and time again over the course of every show in the past 15 year...

But in this day and age, is it really so hard to get closer to the computer generated models and colors?

The typical arguments for accepting what we get with these domestic releases is that it is a cost saving measure. That these decos are necessary for the figures to be priced and costed for the assortments that they're in.

Yet the RiD line has one of the highest cost to consumer ratios of any line, ever. These are some of the smallest, thinnest figures with a baseline MSRP of $14.99 ($15.99 and $19.99 in many places), and they still miss the mark with accuracy.

I actually asked the Hasbro staff at Botcon about deco choices and whether or not there was a conscious effort to work around or trade off with Takara for what figures get one treatment over another. I was told it was entirely independent. Which leaves me wondering...

If Hasbro and Takara really are two separate corporate entities who team up together on engineering and some design work, why can't Hasbro be more competitive with its domestic releases?

Why is it that even on our premium releases, we are still presented with inaccuracies? (examine the chest deco)



Why do I still have to import to get figures that actually match what we see on the screen Hasbro?

Nice write up Counterpunch! And I totally get you, it sucks we have to import. I am surprised you didnt bring up Jazz yet. While I could have waited to get the Hasbro on on sale, by principal alone I went with Takara. I mean come on, this is pretty deplorable:


Transformers Adventures Jazz Gallery

But I did want to tackle a few things you mentioned:

Counterpunch wrote:But in this day and age, is it really so hard to get closer to the computer generated models and colors?

The toys were actually designed first with the animation models coming after. Like with Beast Wars and G1, the show creators decided to make things a bit more intricate with the show models. While it was the reverse with animated and on, they went back to doing the toys first with Beast Hunters Optimus and kept that for RID. And possibly, the colour pallet is chosen for the toys first as well. So it would be more that the TV show didnt adhere to the colours chosen (since it would look better on screen).

Counterpunch wrote:These are some of the smallest, thinnest figures with a baseline MSRP of $14.99 ($15.99 and $19.99 in many places)

These figures are not smaller than many deluxes we've gotten from the generations and prime line:

Transformers Prime: Robots In Disguise Sergeant Kup Gallery

Transformers Fall of Cybertron Shockwave Gallery

Those FOC toys were a hell of an insult to that price point, considering what was released at the same price point right before:

Transformers Fall of Cybertron Optimus Prime Gallery

And in any case, Ben from BWTF debunked that notion by just measuring some of the toys. Here is his assessment of RID Warrio Optimus:

The Warrior Class is still rather new to most fans, and one of the concerns people have had is about "how much" toy you're getting for your money. For comparison, I had "Beast Hunters" Prowl handy so I compared the two. Prowl stands at about 5 inches (roughly 12.7 centimeters) tall and weighs in around 2.8 ounces (79.3 grams). In comparison, Optimus stands at about 5.3 inches (roughly 13.4 centimeters) tall and weighs in around 3.2 ounces (about 90.7 grams). Of course, size and weight will vary figure to figure regardless of the line, but the point of this part of the review is to illustrate how the figure is not necessarily "less" toy than you would've gotten two years ago.

william-james88 wrote:But I did want to tackle a few things you mentioned:

Counterpunch wrote:But in this day and age, is it really so hard to get closer to the computer generated models and colors?

The toys were actually designed first with the animation models coming after. Like with Beast Wars and G1, the show creators decided to make things a bit more intricate with the show models. While it was the reverse with animated and on, they went back to doing the toys first with Beast Hunters Optimus and kept that for RID. And possibly, the colour pallet is chosen for the toys first as well. So it would be more that the TV show didnt adhere to the colours chosen (since it would look better on screen).

Source? Because this doesn't sound right at all. Toys don't get made without art or modeling being done first if but for nothing other than to pitch an idea.

Also, I'm not really pushing the intricacy issue here. I'm talking about basic mismatches of color and large swath detailing like with Bumblebee and Strongarm.

william-james88 wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:These are some of the smallest, thinnest figures with a baseline MSRP of $14.99 ($15.99 and $19.99 in many places)

These figures are not smaller than many deluxes we've gotten from the generations and prime line:

Transformers Prime: Robots In Disguise Sergeant Kup Gallery

You're comparing things to literally, some of the smallest figures released in years at that price point there. Not to mention, most of the FoC figures were suffering due to the oil prices of the time.

Simple question, put an RiD toy next to a CW figure of the same price point and tell me which one feels "better". Perhaps I overstated it a bit in regards to them being small...the RiD line certainly uses hollowness to expand size. That's an unfortunate truth.

william-james88 wrote:And in any case, Ben from BWTF debunked that notion by just measuring some of the toys. Here is his assessment of RID Warrio Optimus:

The Warrior Class is still rather new to most fans, and one of the concerns people have had is about "how much" toy you're getting for your money. For comparison, I had "Beast Hunters" Prowl handy so I compared the two. Prowl stands at about 5 inches (roughly 12.7 centimeters) tall and weighs in around 2.8 ounces (79.3 grams). In comparison, Optimus stands at about 5.3 inches (roughly 13.4 centimeters) tall and weighs in around 3.2 ounces (about 90.7 grams). Of course, size and weight will vary figure to figure regardless of the line, but the point of this part of the review is to illustrate how the figure is not necessarily "less" toy than you would've gotten two years ago.

I love Ben's work, but this is not a good example.

The RiD Optimus figure is kind of the keystone figure from that Warrior wave. He's the biggest of the group and kind of gets the most of the allotted treatment for those 4,6, or 8 figures. Compared to Prowl, who is Smokescreen light (as in, much of his package was previously taken up with his large Beast Hunter weapon), it's not a fair comparison.

But you're right in that heights don't matter, but weight does. That's something that can be measured.

So, I take it that in a way, you're apologizing for Hasbro? I mean, my argument is that the figures are not as accurate as they should be, but what we're doing is going back and forth on the merits of the corollary aspects of my argument.

I brought up the price/production values to highlight how at that price, we really should be seeing better made figures or better deco'ed figures, so I'm going to redirect this...

Why can't we get better?

Is the answer as simple as, "These are meant for kids and kids don't notice or care about this shi't?"

Maybe.

It's my working hypothesis.

Counterpunch wrote:So, I take it that in a way, you're apologizing for Hasbro? I mean, my argument is that the figures are not as accurate as they should be, but what we're doing is going back and forth on the merits of the corollary aspects of my argument.

I brought up the price/production values to highlight how at that price, we really should be seeing better made figures or better deco'ed figures, so I'm going to redirect this...

Why can't we get better?

I am not apologising for Hasbro, I just wanted to lay out some info so that there could be an even ground to compare. It wont make up for the piss poor deco, which I agree with fully. To the point that (as you will see from the photos below), I felt forced to buy the Takara versions. Just because I wouldnt have forgiven myself for settling for Hasbro for a few (Jazz, Strongarm, Drift and others). And the fact that they are the same price in Japan just makes this kind of sad. Would it really have killed Hasbro to just put some extra deco on Bee's doors?!

Anyways, I did want to highlight that the line isnt all that bad though. For the colour differences from the show I dont want to penalize Hasbro tooo hard if the cartoon models were done later. And thats all I meant from waht I wrote before. Of course the toys are designed and drawn first. But the initial design is for the toy and then the animation team uses that design to base their show designs off of it. They make changes, like the way Bee transforms (he doesn't spin his waist in the show) so I figured certain things like Strong Arm's chest were embellished in the show too. But then again, Takara did it, so I dont know. Probably just grasping at straws.

When it comes to size though and how they feel compared to other toys, I dont really see these as any different from others aside from the style. I find CW figures just as cheap feeling and looking. Voyager Hotspot feels cheaper than any RID deluxe I have. I find the combiners really impressive when they are all built up, but the individual figures are quite lackluster (as was the case with the G1 toys). I am far more impressed with Quillfire, Drift, Fracture and Megatronus than I am with the Dead End mold. I am actually far more eager to get the latest RID figure than the latest CW figure since I know I will have a new experience transforming it. I kinda dislike how transforming a CW figure the first time is just going through the motions to build a new combiner. The designs and transformation in RID, especially for the decepticons, is really cool and even more complex than the CW toys. It really looks like as much budget went into each line but for different things. Originality and ingenuity for the individual toys went to RID while the peg combiner technology is the main attraction of CW. I dont think one is superior to the other, they are just very different toys for different age groups and one doesnt feel cheaper than the other (one looks cheaper though). Do you have Fracture?

As for the size, you got me very curious, so I took some pics with deluxes from different lines and the RID ones, while definitely not taller, dont feel smaller neither. That Classic seeker mold still looks short in comparison and the FOC seeker mold still feels hollow and cheap too (and I just realized it's looking down all the time, am I doing something wrong?). This line has a ton of flaws but aside from the lack of paint (which I see is your biggest gripe and mine as well), the rest of the problems are all things we have been living with for a while. Oh and that Steeljaw is very puny. I know its because he crowtches and he probably is as heavy as the rest, but the design choices do end up making him look small.









Oh and I can tell you what while might think kids dont care, they do. I know becaus I remember beign a kid and getting beast wars rhinox and being repulsed that he had a mutant head that looked nothing like in the show. I also didntlike that Primal had a face mask instead of a mouth. I had no problems with Megatron though

william-james88 wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:So, I take it that in a way, you're apologizing for Hasbro? I mean, my argument is that the figures are not as accurate as they should be, but what we're doing is going back and forth on the merits of the corollary aspects of my argument.

I brought up the price/production values to highlight how at that price, we really should be seeing better made figures or better deco'ed figures, so I'm going to redirect this...

Why can't we get better?

I am not apologising for Hasbro, I just wanted to lay out some info so that there could be an even ground to compare. It wont make up for the piss poor deco, which I agree with fully. To the point that (as you will see from the photos below), I felt forced to buy the Takara versions. Just because I wouldnt have forgiven myself for settling for Hasbro for a few (Jazz, Strongarm, Drift and others). And the fact that they are the same price in Japan just makes this kind of sad. Would it really have killed Hasbro to just put some extra deco on Bee's doors?!

Anyways, I did want to highlight that the line isnt all that bad though. For the colour differences from the show I dont want to penalize Hasbro tooo hard if the cartoon models were done later. And thats all I meant from waht I wrote before. Of course the toys are designed and drawn first. But the initial design is for the toy and then the animation team uses that design to base their show designs off of it. They make changes, like the way Bee transforms (he doesn't spin his waist in the show) so I figured certain things like Strong Arm's chest were embellished in the show too. But then again, Takara did it, so I dont know. Probably just grasping at straws.

When it comes to size though and how they feel compared to other toys, I dont really see these as any different from others aside from the style. I find CW figures just as cheap feeling and looking. Voyager Hotspot feels cheaper than any RID deluxe I have. I find the combiners really impressive when they are all built up, but the individual figures are quite lackluster (as was the case with the G1 toys). I am far more impressed with Quillfire, Drift, Fracture and Megatronus than I am with the Dead End mold. I am actually far more eager to get the latest RID figure than the latest CW figure since I know I will have a new experience transforming it. I kinda dislike how transforming a CW figure the first time is just going through the motions to build a new combiner. The designs and transformation in RID, especially for the decepticons, is really cool and even more complex than the CW toys. It really looks like as much budget went into each line but for different things. Originality and ingenuity for the individual toys went to RID while the peg combiner technology is the main attraction of CW. I dont think one is superior to the other, they are just very different toys for different age groups and one doesnt feel cheaper than the other (one looks cheaper though). Do you have Fracture?

As for the size, you got me very curious, so I took some pics with deluxes from different lines and the RID ones, while definitely not taller, dont feel smaller neither. That Classic seeker mold still looks short in comparison and the FOC seeker mold still feels hollow and cheap too (and I just realized it's looking down all the time, am I doing something wrong?). This line has a ton of flaws but aside from the lack of paint (which I see is your biggest gripe and mine as well), the rest of the problems are all things we have been living with for a while. Oh and that Steeljaw is very puny. I know its because he crowtches and he probably is as heavy as the rest, but the design choices do end up making him look small.









Oh and I can tell you what while might think kids dont care, they do. I know becaus I remember beign a kid and getting beast wars rhinox and being repulsed that he had a mutant head that looked nothing like in the show. I also didntlike that Primal had a face mask instead of a mouth. I had no problems with Megatron though

I'm with you on show accuracy there!

As for the FoC Seeker Mould, are you transforming the shoulders/back section properly? I know that confused me the first time too.

For me, I guess I'm just more accepting of the "way things are". I want a figure, and I want him to look a certain way if I'm to be using him as a display piece. It's something I accepted way back when Henkei was first coming out. *shrug*

I don't have long to post, but I do have a quick thought that pertains to your examples of Steeljaw and Drift. Some of that may be edicts from the marketing folks to use primary, bright colors whenever possible. Some a-hole with an MBA probably has a spreadsheet proving how brightly colored stuff is more appealing, so some of the muted tones that an animator has a bit more free reign with might get modified a bit when it comes to be toy time due to that.

Alternately, they go with something that's as close as possible using only a base plastic color, rather than trying to mix the right pellets at the right proportion to get the more pastel hues. I don't see this being an R&D cost so much as a cost for the factory. Even if minor, just again remember the a-hole with an MBA and spreadsheets.

ScottyP wrote:Even if minor, just again remember the a-hole with an MBA and spreadsheets.

I know he's an a-hole but it doesnt stop me from wishing I had that job

And good point Scotty! We know for a fact that colour did come into play before as the reason for toys being produced and on the shelves. Like for why they picked Scoop to be part of his particular generations wave.

I agree Takara almost always looks better, but I still go with Hasbro because of cost, and because when possible I'd rather go buy something in a store than online.

MP1 was the one real exception where I had to go with Takara, because ugh, those short stacks on the Hasbro. Which isn't really a deco issue, I know.

william-james88 wrote:We know for a fact that colour did come into play before as the reason for toys being produced and on the shelves. Like for why they picked Scoop to be part of his particular generations wave.

Yeah, and despite how I framed it, it's not to say the analysis is wrong either. Gold Armor Grimlock should, by most accounts, have been a big hit. However, it's this mostly drab gray color with some gold. Were I under 10 years old right now, and saw the regular Grimlock next to the "Gold Armor" version, the regular would get my allowance money 9 times out of 10.

Recently I've gotten TF Adventures Roadblock and Unite Warriors Grand Galvatron, so the Hasbro/TT comparison has been a bit more in my mind lately. But a lot of this thread so far has been the same old, same old with figures over the last 5-6 years.

Cry me a river over the price of oil in 2010-2012. Hasbro is a business, a company that makes toys. I don't think it's some tragedy that they need to spend more in order to ultimately make more. No one cares when I have to buy materials for my job out of pocket; it's just something I'm expected to do as a teacher. I understand the cost of materials is an issue for Hasbro, but it's not my problem. "What are they going to do, stop making toys?" I don't know, but that seems like a job better suited to the a-hole with the MBA than me.

Whenever this type of topic is brought up, the op is generally roared down for thinking that there's something not wonderful with Hasbro product. Like a year ago, The Muffin started a thread about the thinness of Leader class Jetfire, and how he disliked that, and was basically told to shut up, because other people who wanted Jetfire hadn't gotten it yet. But if people don't think that the toys are thinner and lighter and cheaper, you're purposely choosing not to recognize that. With pretty much no discernible gains any where else (just my opinion, there), the toys are thinner and hollow.

Combiner Wars, specifically the Hot Spot mold, has this issue as well; however, with Combiner Wars, I personally give it some more slack, because each figure in a combiner team needs to be three or four things, and so there has to be some kind of a sacrifice somewhere along the line. But, if Hot Spot is a little thinner, that is no excuse for RID BB to not have paint, or that poor, poor Jazz which is like a block of white plastic.

To say that kids don't care is kind of insulting to kids. I think we as adults use that as some way of shaming each other when we disagree. As I've already said, Hasbro is a business, and while the mentality around this place is occasionally "Just buy it, even if you don't like it, because we have to support the company," we actually don't. If a company doesn't produce some product you like, or want, you don't HAVE to support them. If we as collectors or kids as the target audience stop supporting a product/company, said company is going to be in trouble. Kids aren't stupid, and they know what they like as well as we do. This isn't the 17th century, we know children are not purely slaves to their impulses, incapable of being rational or critical. Sure, kids want toys, but kids don't want garbage.

Dagon wrote:Cry me a river over the price of oil in 2010-2012.

You make good points, and so I just wanted to let you know of this so that misinformation doesnt weaken any of your arguments (but rather reinforce them): the price of a baril of oil is not related to the production of toys. At least not more than the production of anything else. The organic polymers making plastic are drived from petrochemicals, but the price of those is independent and entirely different to the price of crude oil which is used for fuel, which is what the "price of oil" reffers to.

Hasbro has explicitly stated that it is the price of synthetic resin that is related to their costs, not the price of oil.

So in the end, the point is that not even the price of oil which people talk about are related to how cheaper these toys feel.

william-james88 wrote:

Dagon wrote:Cry me a river over the price of oil in 2010-2012.

You make good points, and so I just wanted to let you know of this so that misinformation doesnt weaken any of your arguments (but rather reinforce them): the price of a baril of oil is not related to the production of toys. At least not more than the production of anything else. The organic polymers making plastic are drived from petrochemicals, but the price of those is independent and entirely different to the price of crude oil which is used for fuel, which is what the "price of oil" reffers to.

Hasbro has explicitly stated that it is the price of synthetic resin that is related to their costs, not the price of oil.

So in the end, the point is that not even the price of oil which people talk about are related to how cheaper these toys feel.

I have a terrible feeling that this is going to come out like I'm being surly, but thank you for that clarification.

I honestly didn't, or don't, know what does or doesn't go into the cost of toy production, but always figured that oil must be one of the things, since the standard response to people complaining about 2010-2012 toys was usually containing the price of oil. People tossed that around like they knew it was part of the issue, so I always just repeated it.

Thanks for the clarification.

Dagon wrote:

william-james88 wrote:

Dagon wrote:Cry me a river over the price of oil in 2010-2012.

You make good points, and so I just wanted to let you know of this so that misinformation doesnt weaken any of your arguments (but rather reinforce them): the price of a baril of oil is not related to the production of toys. At least not more than the production of anything else. The organic polymers making plastic are drived from petrochemicals, but the price of those is independent and entirely different to the price of crude oil which is used for fuel, which is what the "price of oil" reffers to.

Hasbro has explicitly stated that it is the price of synthetic resin that is related to their costs, not the price of oil.

So in the end, the point is that not even the price of oil which people talk about are related to how cheaper these toys feel.

I have a terrible feeling that this is going to come out like I'm being surly, but thank you for that clarification.

I honestly didn't, or don't, know what does or doesn't go into the cost of toy production, but always figured that oil must be one of the things, since the standard response to people complaining about 2010-2012 toys was usually containing the price of oil. People tossed that around like they knew it was part of the issue, so I always just repeated it.

Thanks for the clarification.

You sound genuine, its all good And yeah, that just shows that people were just finding reasons that werent the right ones, talking as if they were experts (which none of us are). It adds to your claims

I have a radical idea. What if the cost of plastic resin ISN'T the big factor in the slimming of plastic in recent Transformers toys? What if it's more of a "green" effort or conservationism. The amount of plastic in the world is reaching critical mass. It doesn't biodegrade, and we're not recycling enough of it, while we continue to produce more and more of it. Maybe at the next BotCon, someone should ask if Hasbro receives subsidies for ensuring they use UNDER a certain amount of plastic resin in a fiscal year to help with the plastic problem? Just a thought.

Wolfman Jake wrote:I have a radical idea. What if the cost of plastic resin ISN'T the big factor in the slimming of plastic in recent Transformers toys? What if it's more of a "green" effort or conservationism. The amount of plastic in the world is reaching critical mass. It doesn't biodegrade, and we're not recycling enough of it, while we continue to produce more and more of it. Maybe at the next BotCon, someone should ask if Hasbro receives subsidies for ensuring they use UNDER a certain amount of plastic resin in a fiscal year to help with the plastic problem? Just a thought.

Good point, it did get the title of most ethical company for 5 years running. http://investor.hasbro.com/releasedetai ... eid=959148

Maybe I will make a news post

Wolfman Jake wrote:I have a radical idea. What if the cost of plastic resin ISN'T the big factor in the slimming of plastic in recent Transformers toys? What if it's more of a "green" effort or conservationism. The amount of plastic in the world is reaching critical mass. It doesn't biodegrade, and we're not recycling enough of it, while we continue to produce more and more of it. Maybe at the next BotCon, someone should ask if Hasbro receives subsidies for ensuring they use UNDER a certain amount of plastic resin in a fiscal year to help with the plastic problem? Just a thought.

That's actually a really interesting idea. Hasn't the move from the old plastic coated metal twist ties to the current thin plastic strips in packaging been motivated by an effort to lessen the waste from a package? I know I said that terribly, but you get the point, right. I also can't imagine a way that a toy company would announce or advertise more eco-friendly toys. I can imagine that announcement being met with a room full of shrugs. But, it would be a good thing overall.

I was looking at my new toys and others I had close by and realized that the idea that deluxes have gotten smaller is a bit bogus since the sizes were never standard. My Beast Wars deluxe is the smallest of the three with the Beast Hunters being a bit bigger than the rest. Thunderhoof is in the middle in terms of size.



He is lighter, I wont argue, but sizes vary and Thunderhoof is by far the most complex of those 3 so to me its a give and take. Those 3 above are all Takara and at the same price point. Thunderhoof doesnt feel weaker than the others in any way. But its probably because with the Takara deco, he fits right in the long line of quality TF toys. But then again thats the whole point of this thread where Counterpunch states that importing from Takara is sometimes the best way to experience these toys.