The Energon Pub

Yeah, I don't think the stickers will change the values much. Like many others said, supply and demand. If demand is high, even without stickers can still sell good because people want the figures, not stickers. But to me personally, I prefer the stickers are not applied when you are selling them. I like to put them on by myself.

If I pay $500 for a original G1 vintage Wheeljack as an example....then I want original G1 vintage stickers on there as well - regardless of the condition. We've had this (for some reason rather controversial) conversation before and I always bring up the classic car comparison.

A classic car is worth more if it has all original parts that are in so so condition than one which has been fixed up with new "old" parts that are in great condition. There are companies that make new "old parts" for old cars. Cars with these parts are worth much less than a car that has all the original stuff, even if the new stuff works and looks better.

I had one of 6 g1 seekers whose stickers needed replacing. Got the repro labels and although they looked nice they did not match the stickers on the others (originals). This was very frustrating. I could go on an on on this subject.

Generally the repro labels look good, but dont match the originals, so if your G1 Rodimus is missing one of his thigh stickers, you cant replace it with a repro as they wont match. There is a reason why the original stickers sell for much much more on ebay than do the repros.

Also - If anyone is growing tired of my classic car analogy check out any episode of Pawn Stars or Antique Roadshow - anything that has been fixed, updated, upgraded, or whatever you want to call it loses a lot of value. This applies not only to cars, but everything from toys, weapons, furniture, you name it. I dont know why some folks on here think that Transformers somehow are an exception to this generally accepted rule when it comes to the value of old, vintage, collectibles.

JackStraw wrote:Also - If anyone is growing tired of my classic car analogy check out any episode of Pawn Stars or Antique Roadshow - anything that has been fixed, updated, upgraded, or whatever you want to call it loses a lot of value. This applies not only to cars, but everything from toys, weapons, furniture, you name it. I dont know why some folks on here think that Transformers somehow are an exception to this generally accepted rule when it comes to the value of old, vintage, collectibles.

Probably because Transformers aren't a high volume trading item as a lot of other things you find in pawn or antique shops maybe?

Let me throw this at you. G1 Wheeljack with all weapons, instruction book, used sticker sheet and reprolabels for $50. A tenth of what you'd pay for one with original stickers.

Would you buy it or pass on it?

hm.. My concern is basically for my classics collection. I've put fraction symbols on some of the RTS figures and Classics figures that doesn't really have one. for example I've put a Decepticon symbol on the nose cone and one on the upper chest area of Starscream. and also third party Transformers like scouting force x. What I'm hoping is that putting these stickers on would not decrease the value of them.

How far down the track are you planning to sell them?

Not really planing on selling anything, just asking for a just in case i have to scenario. Just don't want to be doing anything that'll damage their value cause I think everything looks so much better with these new symbols. So just want to see what people are saying before I go nuts.

It's hard to tell at this point as we don't know if those figures will appreciate in value or not.

Again it will come down to a case of supply and demand. Classics were really targetted at a more adult market who had the disposable income to blow on them. They had no tv show or even comic to "introduce" them to kids so unlike G1, when the "Classics kids" grow up to be adults, they'll be more inclined to chase Animated, Movie, or Prime figures as that's what they grew up with.

So going off all that, I can't see them appreciating much in value and because their stickers, a dedicated fan could easily remove them and restore them back to their original state.

Burn wrote:

JackStraw wrote:Also - If anyone is growing tired of my classic car analogy check out any episode of Pawn Stars or Antique Roadshow - anything that has been fixed, updated, upgraded, or whatever you want to call it loses a lot of value. This applies not only to cars, but everything from toys, weapons, furniture, you name it. I dont know why some folks on here think that Transformers somehow are an exception to this generally accepted rule when it comes to the value of old, vintage, collectibles.

Probably because Transformers aren't a high volume trading item as a lot of other things you find in pawn or antique shops maybe?

Let me throw this at you. G1 Wheeljack with all weapons, instruction book, used sticker sheet and reprolabels for $50. A tenth of what you'd pay for one with original stickers.

Would you buy it or pass on it?

I would buy. I dont get the point.

Bottom line is when you are talking about the resale value of a collectible, especially an older one, anything added that is not original decreases the value - generally speaking, when it comes to my buying, Transformers are no exception.

Now you are asking me would I rather a WJ with original stickers for $500 or with repro for $50, i'll take the repro, but I'm not sure what that proves, other than the fact that I'm not rich.

The reason I surmise why reprolabels don't replicate the exact original decal material is probably to get Hasbro off their backs. So if indeed you use one on an "original", it's up to the buyer(whether it be on Ebay, amazon,etc)on the value (so long as the seller indicates otherwise)of the TF.

Of course the presence of all the original parts makes a lot of difference in the asking price, but in the end, that'd be more for MISB type buyers. If I get a mint but loose, complete except for the decal, I'd grab the opportunity to buy it.

JackStraw wrote:Also - If anyone is growing tired of my classic car analogy check out any episode of Pawn Stars or Antique Roadshow - anything that has been fixed, updated, upgraded, or whatever you want to call it loses a lot of value. This applies not only to cars, but everything from toys, weapons, furniture, you name it. I dont know why some folks on here think that Transformers somehow are an exception to this generally accepted rule when it comes to the value of old, vintage, collectibles.

Um, no. Lets say I have a painting. There's no frame, the canvas is dirty, and there's holes here and there. I pay someone to restore it and add a new frame. Guess what? The value goes up. Similarly, a running '69 Mustang is worth a hell of a lot more than a body rusting in someone's barn. Watch "American Restorations", you'll never see Rick tell someone their item is worth less after he's done with it.

There are actually very few items where cleaning/restoring them hurts the value, chiefly coins and furniture.

fenrir72 wrote:The reason I surmise why reprolabels don't replicate the exact original decal material is probably to get Hasbro off their backs.

I've a feeling it's more economy of scale and improvements in materials. Paper stickers are cheap to print en masse, but for the runs that RL does, it wouldn't make sense. Plus, I find Reprolabels to be more durable than the originals.

Skyfire77 wrote:Um, no. Lets say I have a painting. There's no frame, the canvas is dirty, and there's holes here and there. I pay someone to restore it and add a new frame. Guess what? The value goes up. Similarly, a running '69 Mustang is worth a hell of a lot more than a body rusting in someone's barn. Watch "American Restorations", you'll never see Rick tell someone their item is worth less after he's done with it.

There are actually very few items where cleaning/restoring them hurts the value, chiefly coins and furniture.

Ah... just because I'm in the art dealing industry I'd like to clarify your statement by saying it depends not only on the type of restoration, but the collector ^^;; Even if you repair a hole or two in a painting it's virtually unsalable to a collector and it turns into a "I want that thing now!" sort of deal for people who are either unschooled in art/collecting or don't care about condition (which rules out serious collectors). So yes, the value is certainly higher than when it had a hole, but you lose most the important players who'd bid/consider buying it (Obviously there are exceptions with the highly famous master painters and such, but it's a basic rule that applies to prints, painting, vintage Valentines, etc)

Basically if something is completely destroyed and you fix it up it does gain value back. But if it's in ok condition and you fix it, chances are, depending on the item being restored, you just hurt it's value (can't tell you how many times I've heard my co-workers gripe about how something has been restored to death)

I'd imagine toys are something of the same, but have more liberties. A painting can't have segments replaced (...well, technically it can but if you did that in restoration you'd MURDERED the value). Toys can however. So if, say, your G1 Optimus Prime broke, you can find pieces to other G1 Optimus's to fix it and no one but you would know the difference. But if you wanted to be legit about it you would say your Optimus has been "refurbished" or "repaired." Naturally that means he's not going to be the value of a pristine, never been altered or repaired Optimus, even if he looks it, because he's been fixed and altered in some fashion. But he will be more than a beat to crap Optimus.

And as I end this rambling I will say, when put in Auctions (ebay, Swann's, Sotheby's, etc) things sometimes get funky. Esepcally in this economy. Pieces of crap sometimes sell for the same price or more than the pristine version and sometimes the pristine versions sell for garbage prices (or don't sell at all). Auctions are hot these days and most people at them don't know what the hell they're doing (or get into pissing contests because they want something so badly they forget its real value). Goes for many things, I just hear about it in the art world 'cause that's the industry I'm in and learning about.

My two cents on altering TF toys - at this modern moment I don't think the price will be effected much. But no one can really say what it'll do in 30+ years. Good? Bad? Do nothing at all? Who knows. Hard to tell when you're taking a modern toy and trying to make it look like the classic character. And it'll also depend on if anyone cares about the Transformers realm in 30 years. Supply and demand will certainly play its part.

I'm pretty sure that (beyond the value tumble that is taken when an item is unpacked) the primary base for the value of a Transformer is in its material condition: nothing broken, no stress marks, no discolorations, shiny unscratched plastic and of course completeness of its accessories. In my opinion, problems with any of these can be deal-breakers, and problems or flaws will have a big impact on the value. Easiest to correct is the replacement of accessories, although these might also be one of the most expensive fixes.

In contrast, the condition, correct placement and neat placement of labels are of much less importance, mostly because they can easily be removed or replaced by original labels or Reprolabels without harming the integrity of the material condition. This also means that having the labels replaced will hardly change the value of the Transformer; and if done well, it will probably add to the value of the item.

In general, in most cases, if buying a G1 Transformer, I wouldn't mind an item which has been Reprolabel'ed well.
In the case of newer TF's (like RtS or Generations) or third party TF's which have been pre-printed, I'd be a bit more hesitant in buying one with additional, non-factory labels.

We're not talking about original paintings or classic cars. We're talking about mass-produced $10-$50 toys. There's a big difference. The analogies don't work.

GuyIncognito wrote:We're not talking about original paintings or classic cars. We're talking about mass-produced $10-$50 toys. There's a big difference. The analogies don't work.

Natrally. Toys are always another animal than art (not just in value), but I felt I should clarify a statement made about artwork restoration xP (note edited in : I meant no offense with my rambling before either, to anyone, was just trying to explain the art world end of restoration as it came up)

It's rare to find vitage toys that are worth a crud load and those that are tend to be 50+ years old (cult classics aside). Note, this is just my observation. I certainly don't look at everything (no where even close).

Transformers is just over 25 years old and mass marketing certainly hurts items that, say 50 or 60 years ago, wouldn't have been as wide spread or mass produced as they are in today's global market. There's no telling what the future holds for their value, altered or otherwise. They could collapse on themselves, they could rise up. It's a guessing game for everyone.

Most important thing is to enjoy what you're collecting & if altering your Transformers makes you happier, then I don't see why you should worry. If you're really antsy about it buy a spare figure to remain unaltered, if you can, otherwise just have fun with your little guys

This is a good discussion. So I think these two questions may help wrap this up.

1. Do you feel that if someone is selling a complete excellent condition G1 bot at auction and it has reprolabels applied, should the seller disclose this?

2. Would you pay the same amount for a G1 bot complete, excellent condition, regardless of whether it had excellent condition original stickers, or excellent condition reprolabels? As a buyer, is it all the same?

JackStraw wrote:1. Do you feel that if someone is selling a complete excellent condition G1 bot at auction and it has reprolabels applied, should the seller disclose this?

Absoloutely. Just like the seller should disclose the state of the joints, whether there's any discolouration to the plastic, etc. Pics can only go so far.

2. Would you pay the same amount for a G1 bot complete, excellent condition, regardless of whether it had excellent condition original stickers, or excellent condition reprolabels? As a buyer, is it all the same?

I would expect to pay more for a TF with original stickers, depending on their condition.

Most times though i'll just replace them with Reprolabels anyway.

JackStraw wrote:Bottom line is when you are talking about the resale value of a collectible, especially an older one, anything added that is not original decreases the value - generally speaking, when it comes to my buying, Transformers are no exception.

Now you are asking me would I rather a WJ with original stickers for $500 or with repro for $50, i'll take the repro, but I'm not sure what that proves, other than the fact that I'm not rich.

so my MP Grimlock with real diamond teeth and 24k gold chest piece custom is less valuable?

As most people are saying here, it depends on supply and demand, but I'll pipe up and say that if I were buying toys not currently available at retail (Lets use G1 as an example, as that's where most of the stickers are anyway) and I could get one with tatty old original stickers or one with shiny new stickers, all else being equal, I'd go for the prettier one. granted, I'm not as much of a stickler for some things as some people are. There are people who will want the original in whatever condition it is in. I bought reissue Hot Rod, because I wanted the figure, but had it not been in ToysRUs for a tenner or whatever, I'd have passed, I would not have hunted down an original. Some people are more selective.

Erailea wrote:

GuyIncognito wrote:We're not talking about original paintings or classic cars. We're talking about mass-produced $10-$50 toys. There's a big difference. The analogies don't work.

Natrally. Toys are always another animal than art (not just in value)

I'd argue this point somewhat. They're not regarded as art by the majority of people, but art can be mass-produced/replicated and in every other way that art is described, I can see applications in the field of toymaking. Some of it's pretty bad art, but then there are some masterpieces as well. I think Universe Galvatron might have been someone's attempt at a Picasso.

Reprolabels have added value to my G1 Astrotrain and Devastator and are improving my movie-verse. I'm not planning on selling them in the near future so they work for me.

TO be honest i've haven't had a pleasant experience with sticker on toys.

I once had 2 G1 Seacons Nautilator and Seawing which i bought at a flea market. Their stickers were very badly worn out and had minor detail effect or were flaking off so i just brushed the stickers off and i always decided that unless it's a very important sticker detail like a faction symbol or other extreme significance then they don't matter to me one bit(unfortunately those 2 were lost when i moved from denmark to iceland)

Also, i am not like a perfectionist collector.... to be spend money to buy minor details for stickers that were 20+ years old and were peeling off.

I've also collected a toy-line called Beyblade(back in 2003), small spinning tops that had multiple small detail stickers like stickers for detailed areas like animal eyes. I even had to resort to leave out those particular sticker eyes made by Hasbro since they repeatedly fell out due to weak glue.

Value of the toy.
Imho, the value is in the eye of the beholder. What kind of hurts is that it's like become an industry( both good and bad)

The good:
1. Htf figures can now be purchased
2. Spare parts can now be purchased
3. It can now be used as collateral(almost?) if you need extra cash as a last resort

The bad:( amped up x 100 )
1. Htf figures can now be purchased
2. Spare parts can now be purchased
3. It can now be used as collateral(almost?) if you need extra cash

Heck, even the root vein of the discussion "will use of reproduction decals change a figure's value?" Has it all come down to how much will I get when I sell my figure at the secondary market? Mind you, imho, this is basically only applicable to G1.

In a spin off show of Pawn Stars, Kings of Restoration, the underlying theme is to have an item as complete, functional and original as possible. That is only logical.

It all boils down to personal taste.

In my personal experience I have not encountered many people who would not pay the same amount for an original sticker version compared to a reprolabeled version. The main draw that I've found for TF's is the condition of the plastic, rubber (if there is any), and joint tightness. In most cases even joint tightness can be fixed with very little labor.

For my personal collection I would rather have a nice reprolabeled figure opposed to one with somewhat damaged stickers. In fact, if the rest of the figure is in good condition I'll buy it with the thought of putting repros on it.

It's personal preference, but I think the majority of collectors don't mind. Reprolabels are practically official products anyway.

Erailea wrote:Most important thing is to enjoy what you're collecting & if altering your Transformers makes you happier, then I don't see why you should worry. If you're really antsy about it buy a spare figure to remain unaltered, if you can, otherwise just have fun with your little guys

Exactly! Enjoy them now! Don't sacrifice your own enjoyment of the figures by NOT buying Reprolabels that you want, just because you think it's going to hurt their resale value later. If you think your Transformers are an investment, you're a fool. If you want an investment, buy stocks, mutual funds, or real estate. Transformers are toys and should be enjoyed in the present.

Not wanting to derail this one but I've a question not worthy of it's own topic. I found a complete G1 Squeezeplay in my Mum's attic not long ago, the only stickers showing any wear are the really thin ones on the robot-mode legs. Were I to sell it, which I've no intention of doing at present, is there a chance that anyone would believe that these are the original stickers and not updates? I ask out of interest because I'm amazed at how well these stickers have endured.

Edit for spelling, and it's probably still messed up.