The Energon Pub

News Credits: 3 · by **Damolisher** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:15 am

Tramp wrote:
Damolisher wrote:Will you please stop using a manga no-one's ever seen or cares about as an argument? If that manga's canon, Robot Masters and Kiss Players Manga must be canon too.
Technically, they are. They are part of the official Japanes line, are they not? They have an official story line and continuity. Remember, The TF canon covers multiple timelines and continuities, all of which happen simultaniously. Therfore, any officialy licensed line and story fits within canon, just in different continuities. Victory is part of the G1 continuity, with slight differences between the manga and the anime, particularly at the end of the series.

This is Esmeryl, Deathsaurus' wife:

You can also see the children of the Dino Force in the back ground too.

Besides, I have also shown you direct evidence from US continuities which also states quite clearly that bulding protoforms is not to only method possible for creating new TF life. I gave you a direct quote with page number. I have given you solid evidence of specific romantic relationships in both G1 and other continuities. I have shown you evidence which state that they have a genetic code, as well as solid scientific fact regarding what is the requirements for something to be life, and shown why Transformers need to meet those requirements, and how evidence shows that they do. Something cannot be alive if they have to build new mwmbers of its kind in a factory. They have to be able to do so from their own bodies. Evidence strongly suggests that Cybertronians can. and the fact that they have genders indicates that the method is some form of sexual reproduction. What form that takes is up for debate, but the evidence strongly supports it none the less.

You are lookign at one quote from a character, taken completely out of context, and can't look past the idea of them being robotic. Whether they are robotic, crystaline, organic, silicon based or anything else for that matter. What the basis of their make-up is, is completely irrelevant. They are still life forms and as such need to meet certain criteria, and evidence does indeed indicate that they do meet all of those criteria including the capability of autopoietic reproduction through sexual means. The only thing preventing it during G1 is a scarcity of females.

Oh my bloody God, you're like a broken record. THERE'S ROBOTS FOR **** SAKE! **** ROBOTS! THEY DO NOT HAVE **** CHILDREN! THE MANGAS DON'T MEAN JACKSHIT! **** HELL! THEY ARE ROBOTS! THEY ARE MADE OF METAL! THERE IS NOT A SINGLE **** ORGANIC THING ABOUT THEM! Christ, I think I'm gonna back out of this topic for a while before I BREAK SOMETHING! Because I am beginning to get pissed off with you basing your so-called facts on something only you can see, and on some lame crap some losers who wrote some crappy non-canonical comics made! Those comics ARE NOT CANON! CANON= OFFICIAL, NOT SOMETHING YOU THINK IS OFFICIAL, WHICH ISN'T!!!! GAAAAAAAH! THERE ARE NOT A STRICT **** SET OF RULES TO BE A LIFEFORM! BLOODY HELL! Why won't you open your freaking eyes! IF SOMEONE WANTS TO MAKE NEW RULES FOR BEING A **** LIFEFORM THEY CAN! A spacechip cannot fly fast enough to reach a plent within a few days unless it's going faster than the speed of light which is impossible, but that happens in cartoons!

THERE IS NOT A **** SET AGENDA! TRANSFORMERS ARE ALIVE, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE **** ROBOTS! Seriously, Shadowman's right, you don't listen to logic.

by **Tramp** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:22 am

Damolisher, whether or not they are organic or robotic is completely irrelevant!!!!! What matters is that they are life forms. That is the important part and what you are willfully ignoring. Secondly yes, the manga is canon. No if ands or buts about it. They were officially licensed by Takara which is co-owner of the Transformers with Hasbro. Therfore, they are canon.

News Credits: 3 · by **Damolisher** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:24 am

Just because it's licensed DOES NOT MAKE IT CANON! Car Show Blowup was licensed, it isn't canon. Nor are the Manga. If that's the case, those Energon Pack-in comics and Armada pack-in comics from the toys are canon, and they aren't.

by **Tramp** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:28 am

Damolisher wrote:Just because it's licensed DOES NOT MAKE IT CANON! Car Show Blowup was licensed, it isn't canon. Nor are the Manga. If that's the case, those Energon Pack-in comics and Armada pack-in comics from the toys are canon, and they aren't.

Yes, it does make it canon. This isn't Star Trek where only the TV show and movies are canon. In TF everything that is licensed through either Hasbro or Takara is part of the canon. They are just different continuities in the TF multiverse. And, yes, that does indeed include the pacvk-in comics that came with the Armada and Energon toys. Many of them were excerpts from the main comics being prduced by Dreamwave, and those are indeed canon.

News Credits: 3 · by **Damolisher** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:41 am

OH my god, they are not CANON! You do not understand what canon is. You are trying to enforce what you THINK canon is, BUT IT'S NOT BLOODY CANON! DREAMWAVE THEMSELVES SAID IT'S NOT CANON! Christ almighty, this is like arguing with the world's most frustratingly annoying brick wall!

Oh, and just to verify, because again, one of my simple statements is going to get misinterpreted AGAIN, I'm not talking all comics, I'm talking about ones that aren't recognised as canon, such as pack-in comics, Manga that aren't parts of main story, and things such as that. Pack-In Comics are not part of the main story, and are therefore NOT CANON. A Pack-in comic, or a children's storybook such as Car-show blow up IS NOT CANON, Can I make this any clearer, or do I need to start speaking chinese, or some other language?

by **Tramp** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:48 am

Damolisher wrote:OH my god, they are not CANON! You do not understand what canon is. You are trying to enforce what you THINK canon is, BUT IT'S NOT BLOODY CANON! DREAMWAVE THEMSELVES SAID IT'S NOT CANON! Christ almighty, this is like arguing with the world's most frustratingly annoying brick wall!

And just where did Dreamwave say this? Canon is the accepted list of works authorized by the owners of the property, in this case by Hasbro and Takara, as authentic. The comics and manga are authentic and authorized by the owners of the property. Takara authorized the publishing of the Victory manga. It is just as canon as the anime, just like the cartoons and comics here have equal status. It is no different. And, you cannot tell me that the anime is not canon either because it is.

News Credits: 3 · by **Damolisher** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:55 am

The Anime is canon IN JAPAN, much like the English dubs of Armada, Energon and Cybertron are only canon in the Western World. The Manga are, however, not canon.

Anyways, I quit. It's obvious I'm not getting through to you, because you're just gonna bring something from outside the Transformers world, something which isn't fact, just hearsay from the so-called "Real World", which doesn't really apply to a cartoon show, such as your "Laws of living creatures," which is only applied to anything watched by a majority of people who give a crap about it, which I'm sure nobody else aside from you and a selected few know, and again, really care about, and other ridiculousness, in closing, they're robots, think what you want, but your little "Life Laws" don't apply to sentient MACHINES, ROBOTS you know, things which aren't carbon based and are showed time and again to be created in factories out of metal, etc, and don't have any organs, your argument is based on nothing but non-canon things that you define as canon by a false definition, and things which have never been applied by anybody other than yourself to Transformers before, Thank you, good night, and for the love of God, stop trying to get deeper scientifical meaning out of a kids cartoon and a comic made for fans who just like Transformers for the way it is.

by **Tramp** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:02 am

Damolisher wrote:The Anime is canon IN JAPAN, much like the English dubs of Armada, Energon and Cybertron are only canon in the Western World. The Manga are, however, not canon.

Anyways, I quit. It's obvious I'm not getting through to you, because you're just gonna bring something from outside the Transformers world, something which isn't fact, just hearsay from the so-called "Real World", which doesn't really apply to a cartoon show, such as your "Laws of living creatures," which is only applied to anything watched by a majority of people who give a crap about it, which I'm sure nobody else aside from you and a selected few know, and again, really care about, and other ridiculousness, in closing, they're robots, think what you want, but your little "Life Laws" don't apply to sentient MACHINES, ROBOTS you know, things which aren't carbon based and are showed time and again to be created in factories out of metal, etc, and don't have any organs, your argument is based on nothing but non-canon things that you define as canon by a false definition, and things which have never been applied by anybody other than yourself to Transformers before, Thank you, good night, and for the love of God, stop trying to get deeper scientifical meaning out of a kids cartoon and a comic made for fans who just like Transformers for the way it is.

The anime and manga hold equal standing, just as the comics and cartoons do here. They are all canon everywhere. They just take place in different continuities. The Japanes anime and comics are just as canon here as our cartoons and comics, and our cartoons and comics are just as canon there. They all hold equal standing. also, everything I have given has come from not just the manga, but from the US cartoons, and comics as well, from every continuity. and applied scientific laws that encompass all forms of life, not just carbon-based organic life. And, no I won't stop trying to get a deeper meaning out of the stories. I enjoy getting deeper meanings from my stories.

by **ThunderThruster** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:32 am

lets get a few things in perspective:
1: Fiction needs to follow the KNOWN rules of the universe, otherwise it becomes implausible and unrealistic, and nobody will give a crap about it!

2: if they're 'just fancy machines' lets rip rip those suckers apart and go around piloting some seriously kick ass weapon systems

3:

Damolisher wrote:THERE ARE NOT A STRICT **** SET OF RULES TO BE A LIFEFORM!

actually yes there are, and if any 1 of the 7 is in question, it can be the detrimental to whether or not something is considered to be alive! robotic liforms, organic liforms, etc.

4: if you cant see something that is as clear as day, such as the romantic interactions in the show, your a moron. they're are there, no ifs, no buts. they are there and they exist!

5: i'm actually with Tramp on this.

by **Zombie Starscream** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:48 pm

ThunderThruster wrote:lets get a few things in perspective:
1: Fiction needs to follow the KNOWN rules of the universe, otherwise it becomes implausible and unrealistic, and nobody will give a crap about it!

2: if they're 'just fancy machines' lets rip rip those suckers apart and go around piloting some seriously kick ass weapon systems

3:
Damolisher wrote:THERE ARE NOT A STRICT **** SET OF RULES TO BE A LIFEFORM!

actually yes there are, and if any 1 of the 7 is in question, it can be the detrimental to whether or not something is considered to be alive! robotic liforms, organic liforms, etc.

4: if you cant see something that is as clear as day, such as the romantic interactions in the show, your a moron. they're are there, no ifs, no buts. they are there and they exist!

5: i'm actually with Tramp on this.

I also agree on this. Without all those criteria, killing them would not be immoral, as they are just glorified toasters. Scientists must use these criteria in real life, they also have been said that they will probably use 1-7 to determine alien life too when they come across it. Besides, they are alien made robots, not humanmade ones, so they might truely have that capability that our robots do not.

But it is not a crime if Demolisher wants to believe the way he does, as he can believe want he wants. I only like G1 and the old movie, yet there are people who will say that I'm "stuck in the '80s" just because I will not accept Beast Wars or that I do not like the Unicron Trilogy. To him they are plain Robots, to me they are Robotic Lifeforms.

by **slycherrychunks** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:48 pm

There are that many contradictions and seperate continuities in Transformers fiction that using 'canon' to justify your beliefs is utterly redundant.

by **Tramp** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:03 pm

slycherrychunks wrote:There are that many contradictions and seperate continuities in Transformers fiction that using 'canon' to justify your beliefs is utterly redundant.

The one thin all continuties (except for Simmon Furman's work) in TF canon have is genders. They all have male and femal Transformers. G1 had them, Headmasters had them, Headmansters Junior had them in abundance, Victory had them Beast Wars and its sequels had them, AEC had them. They all had male and female Cybertronians. So, canon establishes this fact. Furman chooses not to include femmes in his work because of his own personal beliefs, however misguided. Thus, he sidesteps the issue all together. What you have to look at is what they all have in common. The different continuities all still follow the same laws. It is just the characters' appearances and the specific events that vary from contimuity to continuity, not the basic laws. And, as I, Zombie Starscream, and Thunder Thruster have pointed out, as life forms, Transformers must be capable of meeting all seven scientific criteria for life. This includes Autopoietic reproduction. This is not debatable. This is hard, scientific fact. These are very strict criteria that absolutely must be met for anything, regardless of its composition, to be classified as life.

by **slycherrychunks** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:19 pm

Tramp wrote:This is not debatable. This is hard, scientific fact.

You heard it here first, folks. Fictional Cartoon Robots Have Sex. Scientific Fact.

Tramp wrote:There is nothing ambiguous about Prime's relationship with Elita-1, or Ironhide's relationship with Chromia, Inferno's with Firestar, or Powerglide's with Moonracer. They are clearly and obviously romantic in nature.

You deduced this from two or three lines of dialogue and a sarcastic jibe from Starscream. Clearly and obviously my left nut.

I see what Shadowman meant about Hamunaptra.

by **Tramp** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:04 pm

slycherrychunks wrote:
Tramp wrote:This is not debatable. This is hard, scientific fact.

You heard it here first, folks. Fictional Cartoon Robots Have Sex. Scientific Fact.

the scientific fact is that as life forms, Transformers must be capable of procreation. They must be able to beget offspring through an autopoietic means. That is scientific fact. The fact that they also have genders and engage in courtship, and form romantic pair bonds is what says that the method of reproduction is sexual. Also, sexual reproduction does not necessarily mean that they "ghave sex" like we do. Plants reproduce sexually without ever coming into physical contact with one another. Fish and frogs do to. With fish, the female lays unfertilized eggs and the male comes along and fertilizes them. No physical contact occurs. Besides, why couldn't they have sex? It still wouldn't necesaarily be like us too much. Just a matter of interfacing a plug into a socket.

Tramp wrote:There is nothing ambiguous about Prime's relationship with Elita-1, or Ironhide's relationship with Chromia, Inferno's with Firestar, or Powerglide's with Moonracer. They are clearly and obviously romantic in nature.
You deduced this from two or three lines of dialogue and a sarcastic jibe from Starscream. Clearly and obviously my left nut.

I see what Shadowman meant about Hamunaptra.

Actually, it is more than just a few lines. the romance between Proime and Elita-1 can be traced back to the episode War Dawn as well, which took place before Prime was Optimus Prime. If you remember, in carton continuity, Prime started as Orion Pax. His girlfriend was a fem named Ariel. After being grieviously wounded by Megagtron Pax was rebuilt into Optimus Prime while Arien was turned into Elitia-1. Secondly. In The Search for Alpha Trion Watch what happens, both when the bous first arrive on Cybertron, and at the end of the episode, when each couple gets together. They each show clear "shows of affection" towards their respective mate. Each fem goes to "her man's" arms. Also watch when Prime takes Elita-1 to Alpha Trion. or the flashback of when Prime leaves for Earth leaving Elita-1 in tears begging to come with him, and ending up waiting for his safe return. These are romantic couples. That was the whole intent of the writers.

you also have the other examples from other continuities and series.

by **slycherrychunks** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:26 pm

I cant argue with you about Elita, because of War Dawn. However, you can deduce anything you like from the events of Search For Alpha Trion. These can simply be the reactions of team-mates who haven't seen each other for millions of years - and that's all Powerglide refers to Moonracer as - a team-mate. Then there's the hug between Ironhide and Chromia - you can read into that whatever you like.

-And thats all people are doing here, reading into a scenario where there are no established facts and drawing their own conclusions to suit their own agenda.

With new, high-concept sci-fi principles such as nanotechnology and the like, noones to say that machines couldnt have babies that gestate and grow. My main objection to Transformer reproduction being gender based is that its predictable and unimaginative. (But then again, so is 'duur they wos built in factories lol')

by **Tramp** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:40 pm

slycherrychunks wrote:I cant argue with you about Elita, because of War Dawn. However, you can deduce anything you like from the events of Search For Alpha Trion. These can simply be the reactions of team-mates who haven't seen each other for millions of years - and that's all Powerglide refers to Moonracer as - a team-mate. Then there's the hug between Ironhide and Chromia - you can read into that whatever you

-And thats all people are doing here, reading into a scenario where there are no established facts and drawing their own conclusions to suit their own agenda.

The thing is though, if you notice, They don't just hug. they remain in each others arms for extended periods. When comerades hug as a greeting , they'l let go right after. They don't cuddle. Ironhide and Chromia cuddle. Inferno and firestar cuddle. Poweclide and Moonracer cuddle. They hold each other as a man and woman in love would.

With new, high-concept sci-fi principles such as nanotechnology and the like, noones to say that machines couldnt have babies that gestate and grow. My main objection to Transformer reproduction being gender based is that its predictable and unimaginative. (But then again, so is 'duur they wos built in factories lol')

It's not so much "predictable" or "unimaginative", it's accurate. From a biological stand point, what purpose to genders serve? What purpose does courtship serve? What purpose do pair bonds between genders serve? The only purpose they serve is in sexual reproduction, and they are unique to sexually reporducing life forms. Asexual life forms have no genders. There are no makes and no females That don't identify as masculine or feminine because it serves no purpose.

From a story-telling perspecive giving the characters genders—making them male or female—helps the audience to more closely identify with these alien characters.From an in-universe perspective, those genders must serve a purposeto them as a species, and the only biological, purpose they serve is reproductive. Otherwise, they would not have genders or gender identities at all.

by **slycherrychunks** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:36 pm

Tramp wrote:The thing is though, if you notice, They don't just hug. they remain in each others arms for extended periods. When comerades hug as a greeting , they'l let go right after. They don't cuddle. Ironhide and Chromia cuddle. Inferno and firestar cuddle. Poweclide and Moonracer cuddle. They hold each other as a man and woman in love would.

Maybe they do, in whatever fantasy world you inhabit - but the way I see it Ironhide and Chromia share a brief hug, and Inferno, Firestar, Powerglide and Moonracer never even touch each other. Unless you back these claims up with screengrabs, I'll take it as scientific fact that you are just making stuff up - and that's not for debate.
And besides, Prime hugs Bumblebee as a man and woman in love would, Sandstorm takes Octane to a restaurant as a man and woman in love would and Starscream chains Tracks to a giant speaker system as a man and woman in love would, so as I've said before (almost as many times as you've wrote Autopoietic and life forms in bold) you can read anything you like into this junk.

It's not so much "predictable" or "unimaginative", it's accurate. From a biological

Whoops. They aren't biological. Call them tehno-organic if you like, but dont assume its the same thing.

The only purpose they serve is in sexual reproduction, and they are unique to sexually reporducing life forms.

Oops. Assuming again. Prime and Elita could be bonded because they combine to form super huggle-wuv-o-tron for all you know. Actually, that would make more sense than your theory - for the purpose of the toyline.

News Credits: 2 · by **Tekka** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:41 pm

slycherrychunks wrote:Starscream chains Tracks to a giant speaker system as a man and woman in love would

That is going down as one of my all time favourite laugh until you wet yourself quotes of greatness.

by **slycherrychunks** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:51 pm

^

Actually, to throw an example out there - think of the life cycle of the creatures from the Alien movies. Clearly gender based, their reproductive cycle is nothing like the human model.

by **Tramp** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:01 pm

slycherrychunks wrote:
Tramp wrote:The thing is though, if you notice, They don't just hug. they remain in each others arms for extended periods. When comerades hug as a greeting , they'l let go right after. They don't cuddle. Ironhide and Chromia cuddle. Inferno and firestar cuddle. Poweclide and Moonracer cuddle. They hold each other as a man and woman in love would.
Maybe they do, in whatever fantasy world you inhabit - but the way I see it Ironhide and Chromia share a brief hug, and Inferno, Firestar, Powerglide and Moonracer never even touch each other. Unless you back these claims up with screengrabs, I'll take it as scientific fact that you are just making stuff up - and that's not for debate.
And besides, Prime hugs Bumblebee as a man and woman in love would, Sandstorm takes Octane to a restaurant as a man and woman in love would and Starscream chains Tracks to a giant speaker system as a man and woman in love would, so as I've said before (almost as many times as you've wrote Autopoietic and life forms in bold) you can read anything you like into this junk.

It's not so much "predictable" or "unimaginative", it's accurate. From a biological
Whoops. They aren't biological. Call them tehno-organic if you like, but dont assume its the same thing.

They have a mechanical biology. They are non-organic, they still have a biology. Biology is

"the study of life or living matter in all its forms and phenomena, often esp. with references to origin, growth, reproduction, structure, etc." (Websters Encyclopedic Unabridsged Dictionary of the English Language 1991)

. So, yes, biological is appropriate. They are not organic, but they do have a biology, and the rpocesses of life are classified as biological processes.

Also, look at this screencap. It is Ironhide and Chromia. You can't tell me that this image isn't two lovers embracing.

Not only that, but if you go through the entire episode, whenever the males and females pair up, it is always Chromia with Ironhide, Firestar with Inferno, and Moonracer with Powerglide, and they always[b] stick close to "their" guys. This too was intentional by the writers and animators.

slycherrychunks wrote:
The [b]only purpose they serve is in sexual reproduction, and they are unique to sexually reporducing life forms.
Oops. Assuming again. Prime and Elita could be bonded because they combine to form super huggle-wuv-o-tron for all you know. Actually, that would make more sense than your theory - for the purpose of the toyline.

No.

by **Tramp** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:08 pm

slycherrychunks wrote:^

Actually, to throw an example out there - think of the life cycle of the creatures from the Alien movies. Clearly gender based, their reproductive cycle is nothing like the human model.

They are also not humanoid. They're insectoid That makes a big difference. The aliens from the Alienseries have a biology and reproductive system more along the lines of ants, termites, and bees. They're hive creatures. males mate with a single Queen who produces all of the offspring for the hive. She lays her egs which hatch out "face-hugger' larvae which then seek out a host in order to implant the pupae which feed and metamorph into an adult.

Tranformers, while mechanical, are humanoid. That makes a huge difference.

by **slycherrychunks** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:43 pm

Tramp wrote:Also, look at this screencap. It is Ironhide and Chromia. You can't tell me that this image isn't two lovers embracing.

That is clearly the heimlich maneuver.

I'm not going to waste your time, but I could post 101 screengabs of the bots grabbing each other and struggling and say "look, theyre in love!!!1"

But first I want you to post screenshots of Moonracer cuddling Powerglide and Firestar cuddling Inferno - because thats what you said they did in your previous post.

The aliens from the Alienseries have a biology and reproductive system more along the lines of ants, termites, and bees. They're hive creatures. males mate with a single Queen who produces all of the offspring for the hive. She lays her egs which hatch out "face-hugger' larvae which then seek out a host in order to implant the pupae which feed and metamorph into an adult.

oh wow do they i didnt know that

And Aliens have far too many human qualities to be dismissed as insectoid. They have a queen, Transformers have Primus.

News Credits: 150 · by **GetterDragun** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:01 pm

This topic was supposed to be about "Why aren't there Transformer toys for girls" so how did it get off track on the romance and reproductive characteristics of Transformers? To end that debate, it's fiction and it doesn't belong in this topic. Now we can talk about what the original poster asked, or I can lock it. We'll see where the next few posts drive this.

by **Tramp** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:02 pm

slycherrychunks wrote:
Tramp wrote:Also, look at this screencap. It is Ironhide and Chromia. You can't tell me that this image isn't two lovers embracing.

That is clearly the heimlich maneuver.

I'm not going to waste your time, but I could post 101 screengabs of the bots grabbing each other and struggling and say "look, theyre in love!!!1"

There is is huge difference between grappling, and showing affection. Chromia and Ironhide are clearly showing affection for one another.

But first I want you to post screenshots of Moonracer cuddling Powerglide and Firestar cuddling Inferno - because thats what you said they did in your previous post.

Do you want to see the episode for yourself? Youtube has it in Spanish (unfortunately, because I can't understand Spanish to save muy life), in three parts. Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfiRRW3PXYo&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCzLMdijGlE&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLzJZWmC9HI

The aliens from the Alienseries have a biology and reproductive system more along the lines of ants, termites, and bees. They're hive creatures. males mate with a single Queen who produces all of the offspring for the hive. She lays her egs which hatch out "face-hugger' larvae which then seek out a host in order to implant the pupae which feed and metamorph into an adult.
oh wow do they i didnt know that

And Aliens have far too many human qualities to be dismissed as insectoid. They have a queen, Transformers have Primus.

They're insects. They have an exoskeliton, not and endoskeliton. They are clearly arthopods in form and body struture. They're even referred to as "bugs" in Aliens. What makes them so dangerous is that thay also take on some of the genetic characteristics of their hosts. That is where you get your "human qualities" from. Also, Primus is the Transformers' god. That is a far cry from an insect hive's Queen.

News Credits: 2 · by **Tekka** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:07 pm

This is getting silly now. Nobody is going to win, because there is no right answer. It is best to stick to what suits you best and let others be damned.

The Energon Pub

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